Talk:Greater Albania

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[edit] General, vague discussion

I know this one is emotive - perhaps we can attribute some of these claims to specific groups? 2toise 17:28, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Sure, if you look at the image itself it says Albanian Diaspora which means it's only stating where Albanians live in a relatively high concentration. If you do a search in Google, you will see that most of the claims of a Greater Albania are made by Serbs, Macedonians, and Greeks, not Albanians. Have a look: [1] [2] --Dori 17:34, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Ok, I see what you mean, you're saying that the idea that some Albanians want to create a ga is an allegation made by Serbs, M and G? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 2toise (talk • contribs) 17:37, 4 October 2003 (UTC).

No, I am sure there are Albanians that say that, but there are more non-Albanians making that claim. Like I said, at least this image is only saying where Albanians live. It doesn't even mention a Greater Albania, but it does mention Albanian Diaspora so the caption is misleading in my opinion. --Dori 17:40, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I agree, I moved the image from Kosovo War, and created this page to house it, mostly because I didn't think it was germaine to that page. I don't know where the image came from, and have no real opinion about Greater Albania. Shall we just mention that it is probably a view espoused by very few Albanians? 2toise 17:43, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Well, it was uploaded by Igor, so I guess he could tell us. You can change the article however you wish so that in your opinion it is in NPOV, I presented my version and I added the disputed claim. --Dori 17:47, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)
I asked him.2toise 18:06, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I'm not really disputing you, I'm happy to work on the article, and would preffer to get to the stage where we can remove the dispute tag. What are you unhappy with?2toise 17:50, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Well, for one thing, we know why Albanians might present this claim, but why do non-Albanians do so? I presented the reason that I could come up with, and you proceeded to delete it. I would consider that disputing my version. I would imagine non-Albanians would dispute my claims as well. If the argument is not presented at all, then I dispute the NPOV of the article. The map's name and caption are also misleading in my opinion. --Dori 17:54, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Appologies for deleting it, there was an edit conflict, and it must have gotten lost, I'll go and look for it - how does that read now?2toise 17:58, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)

The sentence "Although it is likely that only a relatively small number of people are committed to the idea, it is often presented by non-Albanian politicians as a threat to non-Albanians in situations where Albanian minorities seek greater minority rights (for example in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia), or in Kosovo." doesn't make much sense to me. What do you mean by "threat"?
I would not remove the disputed claim until Igor and Nikola Smolenski have looked at it. --Dori 18:05, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I'm trying to say that the idea of GA is presented more by politicians from other ethnic groups as a way to make electorates fear Albanian political ambition, and so deny them rights, than by Albanians trying to create a ga - isn't that what you were saying?2toise 18:08, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)

That is part of what I meant. I also meant that this claim is presented to change world opinion of Albanians and of their claims. As in (a hypothetical understanding), "The war in Kosovo was not to protect the human rights of the Albanians, but to acheive the goal of a GA. The Serb military was just protecting non-Albanian minorities from KLA terrorists aiming to achieve this goal, and NATO should not have gotten involved in internal matters." As it is, the sentence does not even clearly say what you just explained. The phrasing is awkard. --Dori 18:15, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I see where you're going, what do you think of the edit I just made? Otherwise, what about a section just describing the project in geographic terms, and then another called 'political uses of the idea of a Greater Albania' or something like that?2toise 18:21, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I tried another rewording. You cannot describe it in geographic terms and maintain a NPOV stance. Which areas would you include and who decided on them, for what reason? --Dori 18:29, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I think we're almost there, I'm not talking about describing 'it', because it doesn't exist, but we could try to describe what some people claim it should be, which is kind of what the map does. Perhaps that's just asking for trouble though! ;) 2toise 18:31, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)

How about that? Feel free to revert it if you like, 2toise 18:56, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Infrogmation (Talk) (if someone disputes it, it is disputed. If no one disputes it, it is not.)
;) Thank you Infrogmation, it was a joke, the whole discussion having focussed around alleged disputes. 2toise 19:33, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)
I suggest removing the dispute note unless anyone feels they still dispute it - I'll do it next week unless there is more heated debate. :)2toise 16:34, 6 Oct 2003 (UTC)

[edit] On pre-WWI borders

The justification for the borders presented often includes reference to the situation prior to World War I, and the argument that these pre-war boundaries should be restored.

What pre-war borders are meant? Andres 07:43, 5 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I'm not really aware of the details, only that I have seen the notion of a ga justified with reference to its historical borders. On a personal note, I am skeptical, and in any case, think that historical borders are a poor justification for current borders. [3] this site might be interesting if you wanted to research it.
To be honest, it seems to me that this whole page is not really so much about what ga is or might be, but about the politics of arguing about it.2toise 02:58, 6 Oct 2003 (UTC)
I think the passage, as it stands, is misleading. The borders assigned for the state of Albania in 1913 (see Geography of Albania) was felt unjust by Albanians since one third of Albanians in the area of their more or less compact settlement was excluded. So the "Greater Albania" only may mean what Albanians have desired, not has been. On the other side, for instance the Britannica of 1911 includes to Albania (not a state yet) much more than the present-day Albania. So it is reasonable to say that the state of Albania is a "cut" Albania.

Just delete the whole article its a complete farce, its just albanians dreaming of a different country its like saying oh there are lots of english people in scotland why not take it over and call it greater england. Litrally the same and considering the history of the region albania should be even smaller than it is now.

I don't know how to re-word this passage. - Andres 16:46, 16 Oct 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Invalid/Irrelevant Map

For the record, the Greater Albania map presented in this article appears to come from http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/1999/05-24-99/vo15no11_kla.htm. The article describes it as "A map circulated among KLA supporters, including the Albanian-American Civic League (AACL), depicts a "Greater Albania" that includes not only Kosovo, but a slice taken from Serbia proper, in addition to portions of Montenegro, Macedonia, and Greece." There are a number of other similar maps on the net - see http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22greater+albania%22 -- ChrisO 19:08, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I listed the image at Wikipedia:Possible copyright infringements since it's coming from http://www.aacl.com/ and as I said it has nothing to do with a Greater Albania. Dori | Talk 23:29, Mar 20, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of term "Greater Albania"

"The term Greater Albania or Great Albania was coined by modern Serb politicians. Its equivalent in Albanian - Shqipëria e Madhe - is rarely used, usually in translations. The English term is more commonly used and it has been popularized by Serbian politicians."

This is completely NOT TRUE. It comes from decimonomic romanticism back to the days from independence from the ottomans.--88.3.225.189 05:00, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV

Where do I start?

"The term Greater Albania or Great Albania was coined by modern Serb politicians."

Where is the evidence for this?

"The term implies a desire for territorial expansion, when in reality survival of Albania and Albanians has been threatened by Albania's neighbors."

Neutrality, anybody?

"The four Ottoman vilayets with Albanian majority in the late 19th century."

Sources confirming that parts of Greece and the former Yugoslavia had Albanian majorities?

"This is understandable however, even more so if you keep in mind that since 1912 Albanians have faced continuous racism, and have at times been murdered and/or forced to emigrate."

You can't be serious.--Theathenae 14:37, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

quotation one, to many Albanians the term Greater Albania is a pejorative term. And in reality there have never existed a Greater Albania. The term was used by Albanians opponents in the Balkans, and not by the Albanians.
quotation two, that text needs some arrangement.
quotation three, there were not parts of Greece and Yugoslavia didn't exist then. It was parts of Ottoman Empire that's why it is called Ottoman vilayets.
quotation four, yes Albanians were killed during the Balkan Wars and the wars between. --Albanau 17:16, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
This article is not neutral at all and could have been written by an Albanian Independance politician. That the author tries to pass this off as an article for an encyclopedia is disgusting. I hope an admin will happily remove the article. - 86.133.33.83 21:58, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] User:Albanau

  • ...said: ...in reality there have never existed a Greater Albania.

I suggest viewing Albanian history during World War II when it was led by King Benito Mussolini - isn't that a Greater Albania?

  • ... said: to many Albanians the term Greater Albania is a pejorative term and The term was used by Albanians opponents in the Balkans, and not by the Albanians

So what? The same is with the Serbs and Greater Serbia as well as Croats and Greater Croatia.

Come on, you must agree with Theathenae that this is WP:POV. --HolyRomanEmperor 23:19, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

  • I suggest viewing Albanian history during World War II when it was led by King Benito Mussolini - isn't that a Greater Albania?
Wrong. Greater Albania as state have never, not even during World War II.
Serbs and Croats proudly express their Greaterserbianism and Greatercroatism.
Theathenae's lack of neutraility makes it difficult to coperate with him. He needs to read books written by the mainstream schoolars insteed of changing and manufacturing false history to fit his agenda. Furthermore he needs to accept the simple fact that Arvanites are descendent of the mediaeval Albanian immigrants, and stop reading Greek propaganda books about the Arvanites and stop making up things.. Albanau 10:35, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I do not know what is Theathenae doing - but as I hear from User:Probert - you're the one who is permanently blocked on the Swedish wikipedia for expressing nationalistic tendencies - not him.

You wrote: Wrong. Greater Albania as state have never, not even during World War II.

Albanian armed forces like Vipurii executed 10,000 Serbs on Kosovo in extermination camps and forcibly removed over 100,000. They had done similiar things to Macedonians who didn't want to declare as Bulgarians and didn't want to cross the border of Albania-Bulgaria. A similiar thing was done to the Serbs of Skadar - today there are barely Serbs in Shkodra - or to the Greeks in Epirus. This is yet another reason why there are so little Romas and no Jews in Albania. --HolyRomanEmperor 11:53, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

I know that these subjects are too fishy => but look at the Greater Serbia article - and then look at this one. Greater Serbia never existed - unlike Greater Albania, which did. --HolyRomanEmperor 11:58, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Anyway - that Albania included large portions of Yugoslavia and Greece - all forcibly conquered. And had a policy based on ethnic extermination and genocide. On what basis would you not call it "Greater Albania"? --HolyRomanEmperor 12:00, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

User:Albanau said Serbs and Croats proudly express their Greaterserbianism and Greatercroatism.

This is generalizing - but if we ought to generalize - so do Albanians. Remember the meeting at Ulcinj which promised that Eastern Montenegro would again be (Greater) Albania? Or the fact that most of the Kosovar Albanians want to join Albania? Even on wikipedia we have that - like User:Getoar who put that Prishtina is a part of Albania. Surely you cannot claim such things, Albanau. --HolyRomanEmperor 12:02, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rant by 68.41.187.247

--Albanian armed forces like Vipurii executed 10,000 Serbs on Kosovo in extermination camps and forcibly removed over 100,000. They had done similiar things to Macedonians who didn't want to declare as Bulgarians and didn't want to cross the border of Albania-Bulgaria. A similiar thing was done to the Serbs of Skadar - today there are barely Serbs in Shkodra - or to the Greeks in Epirus. This is yet another reason why there are so little Romas and no Jews in Albania.

First of all, I've never heard of such an organization call Vipurii. To be sure, I checked the index of Albania at War: 1939-1945. No mention of it there. And the senior German official in Kosovo during the war, Hermann Neubacher, estimated that 40,000 Serbs were expelled, mostly colonists from the the interwar years. I don't know what happened with Macedonians in Albania during the war, so I won't comment. And there were hardly any Serbs in Shkodra, period. The ones that lived there were probably from the small town of Vraka, a few miles away. Greeks in Epirus? Epirus was never part of Albania during the war.

Your comment on Roma and Jews are bizarre too, because like Serbs there have never been a lot of Jews in Albania, period. There were around 1,800 after in the country after the war, most of whom were from other countries. They left shortly after, and the ones that stayed fled to Israel after communism collapsed.

--I know that these subjects are too fishy => but look at the Greater Serbia article - and then look at this one. Greater Serbia never existed - unlike Greater Albania, which did.

Greater Serbia existed. During the Balkan Wars and World War I it conquered Kosovo and Macedonia, which was to be the begining of more territorial expansion.

--Anyway - that Albania included large portions of Yugoslavia and Greece - all forcibly conquered. And had a policy based on ethnic extermination and genocide. On what basis would you not call it "Greater Albania"?

What portions of Greece? Minorities obviously weren't treated that well, I admit. But it was no worse than Croatia or Bulgaria in its treatment of them.

--This is generalizing - but if we ought to generalize - so do Albanians. Remember the meeting at Ulcinj which promised that Eastern Montenegro would again be (Greater) Albania? Or the fact that most of the Kosovar Albanians want to join Albania? Even on wikipedia we have that - like User:Getoar who put that Prishtina is a part of Albania. Surely you cannot claim such things, Albanau.

I don't know of any meeting at Ulqin that promised Eastern Montenegro to Greater Albania. And in Julie Mertus' book Kosovo: How Myths and Truths Started a War, she includes a poll that shows that 55% do not want Kosovo to joing with Albania, and I'd be willing to bet that if anything the percentage has gotten higher. In any case, the UN said that if Kosovo were to be granted independence, it would not be allowed to join any other state. Plus, the Albanians in Macedonia has been silent since the war there ended and they got equal rights. The ones in Montenegro were waving the Montenegrin flag during the independence celebrations. And the Arvanites or whatever there called in Greece have been assimilated. As much as some nationalists in various countries would like for the idea to continue, it won't. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.41.187.247 (talk • contribs) 17:58, 25 June 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Why Ioannina?

I've been looking at maps of Cameria and Greater Albania, and although I can understand the inclusion of Thesprotia (since it had a large number of Chams) I can't understand why they include the city of Ioannina ( or Jannina or Jannena) into it. maybe because a larger and developed city would look nice in their land ? There isn't a single trace of a historic presence of Chams or Albanians in that region, and, at any rate, the large majority of the population there is Greek. Of course there are a lot of Albanians living and working in the region, but almost all are immigrants from Albania after 1991. So, out of curiosity, I'd like a founded and lengthy explanation by Chams or generally Albanians that would sustain the argument that Ioannina is a historically and culturally Albanian city - not counting Albanians assimilated into the Turkish-Ottoman regime. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.16.161.135 (talk • contribs) 14:40, 26 June 2006 (UTC).

[edit] dudes

dudes this is not greater albania... greater albania includes belgrade as capital city... that map is very small for them —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ManiaC (talk • contribs) 14:23, 4 October 2006 (UTC).

Ali Pashe of Tepellena made Ioannina as his capitol and of course it was mostly Albanian.

[edit] Merge with Ethnic Albania

  • I vote in favor of the merge. I don't know which is the better term, but Greater Albania seems to be the better article, and I'd lean towards that for the title as well, but I have no knowledge of this topic at all. --Rschmertz 22:26, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
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