Talk:Great Moravia

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[edit] Knieza's edits

Please see the topic at the Slovakia talk page. Thanks, Redux 04:07, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

This article has now been protected while the issues are addressed on the page linked above. Notice that, since the latest edit, by the anon, was just to link to the "Nitra" article, I did not revert it. Please, discuss the any issues on the talk page linked above, for the sake of clarity and concision. Thank you. Redux 22:13, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

To Whom it may concern:

The changes that I have added to the "Slovakia" article are:
1) A picture of Bojnice Castle - which I see no reason for anyone to dispute to because it is a Slovak castle and is in Slovakia.
2) A picture of the Tatras -which I see no reason for anyone to dispute to this picture because it is in Slovakia and the Tatras are entirely (even the small part in Poland) inhabited by Slovaks.
3) A picture of Slovak folk costumes from the Orava region - which I see no reason for anyone to object because those are Slovak folk costumes and the picture was taken in Slovakia
4) The section of the "Slovakia" article called "Name" lacks detail and a history of the name "Slovakia." For example, articles on Romania or Greece or other countries DO have a section dedicated to describing the history of the name of the country. My question is why you quickly deleted all evidence that the name Slovakia existed before the 11th century. For example: I wrote "The oldest mention of 'Slovakia' dates back to the early 9th century when land around the Danube was called 'Sclavorum' and later also mentioned as 'Slovacorum'." This is a fact yet, somehow you "monitors" seem to be very anti-Slovak when it comes to history, and this bias should not be allowed on an encyclopedia (Wikipedia) that claims that it is a "research tool with only neutral viewpoints."
5) The name "Great Slovak Empire" should definetly be acknowledged, even though America is lacking behind and still uses the same viewpoints that communists had 30 years ago. First, there are books called "Great Slovak Empire" (for example the book called "Velkoslovenska Risa"). Second, the name "Great Slovak Empire" was used by Ludovit Stur while his visit to Devin Castle, which therefore, the name "Great Slovak Empire" is used in historic texts and should be recognized by the minority who seem to deny Slovakia has a history (American text books).

6) The Kingdom of Slovakia (wrongly called by modern historians as "Great Moravia" or "Great Morava") was a Slovak state, not just a "proto-Slovak state."

*Here is proof:
**The "Great Moravian Empire" is mentioned in the Constitution of the Slovak Republic, not in any other constitution in the world is the "Great Moravian Empire" found, including the constitution of the Czech Republic.

... because the Czechs reffer to the Premyslids as their sires of old, the Moravians did not rule in the "Lands of the czech crown", there is no emotional connection and also no need of creating or pulling out more historical roots of the current czech state, there are enough, unlike in Slovakia. There was Nitra and then a Magyar rule, for thousand years. Probably that is why many Slovaks refer to Great Moravia as to the basis of their state.

**Svätopluk, Pribina, Mojmir, Rastislav, and Kocel' are all on either Slovak currency or Slovak stamps. Not any other country in the world has even one of these Slovak rulers on their currency and/or stamps, including the Czech Republic. (Since Slovakia is the only country to have these rulers on currency or stamps, these rulers are officially Slovak, no matter what websites or books claim.)
**The only statues of rulers from the "Great Moravian Empire" are in Slovakia. The only statue of Pribina in the entire world is in Nitra, the only statue of Svätopluk in the entire world is at Devin Castle, and there are two statue of Rastislav in the entire world - both are at Devin Castle. The Czech Republic has not a single statue, square, or street dedicated to even one of the rulers of the "Great Moravian Empire."
**The name "Slovakia" ("Slovacorum") already existed during the early 9th century, which therefore means that there is evidence that "Great Moravia," which was not mentioned in any written document until 950-955, after the empire fell, should rather be called "Great Slovakia" or at least "Kingdom of Slovakia."
**Nitra is most commonly considered as the capital of the "Great Moravian Empire." For example, the song of the city of Nitra, which was written in the mid-19th century by Ludovit Stur, states:

- - "„Nitra, milá Nitra, ty vysoká Nitra, kde že sú té časy, v ktorých si ty kvitla?

Nitra, milá Nitra, ty slovenská mati! Čo pozrem na teba, musím zaplakati. Ty si bola niekdy všeckých krajín hlava, v ktorých tečie Dunaj, Visla i Morava. Ty si bola bydlo kráľa Svätopluka, keď tu panovala mocná jeho ruka. Ty si bola svaté mesto Methodovo, keď tu naším otcom kázau božie slovo. Včilek tvoja sláva v tuoni skrytá leží, tak sa časy menia, tak tento svet beží!”

- - The second line says: "the mother of Slovakia"
  - The fourth line says: "you (Nitra) were King Svatopluk's capital"
  - The fifth line says: "you (Nitra) were Methodius' holy city"

**The song of the city of Nitra dates back to the 19th century, which therefore it is historic evidence that Nitra was the capital of the "Kingdom of Slovakia" (wrongly called "Great Moravia")

Here is more evidence that NITRA WAS the CAPITAL of the "Great Moravian Empire"

- The only statue of Pribina is in Nitra
- The Nitra museum holds the largest collection of "Great Moravian" artifacts in the world
- The city has an annual festival called "Nitra, milá Nitra" in which the mayor of the city at the opening at 13:00 on July 1st specifically states "Nitra, the great capital of Great Morava, has risen again." Other notable guests to the festival include the Prime Minister of Slovakia and the Speaker of Parliament, Pavol Hrusovsky, who resides in Nita.
- The "Nitra, milá Nitra" festival is the only festival in the world that is dedicated to celebrating what is known in the West as the "Great Moravian Empire."
- Mocenok, just outside the Old Town of Nitra, has an annual festival called "GORAZDOV MOČENOK" which is dedicated to St. Gorazd and Sts. Cyril and Methodius (the only festival in the world dedicated to these figures)
- The Pribina Square holds a replica of the Blatnica Sword, which is usually described to have belonged to Svätopluk.
- Nitra is the largest archeological site for "Great Moravia." FIVE, LARGE FORTIFIED SETTLEMENTS were located on what is today the City of Nitra. For example, one was located on Zobor Mountain, another at the site of the Nitra Castle, and another at Mocenok. The site Zobor Mountain and at Devin Castle are the two largest archeological sites for “Great Moravia” today.
- Proof that Mocenok was the birthplace of St. Gorazd, the first Slovak Saint, is Mocenok today has a festival in honor of him (the "GORAZDOV MOČENOK" festival).
- The seminary in Nitra is named after St. Gorazd
- The Nitra museum houses the "cup of Methodius" and the "Stone throne of Great Moravia." I am fully aware that most of you like to deny every pro-Slovak fact that you read so here is a link to the “Stone seating of Great Moravia” in Nitra: http://www.nisys.sk/en/
- The city square is called Svätopluk's Square, obviously named after Svätopluk, who was a native of Nitra
- The city has several streets that were named after Pribina, Svätopluk, Rastislav, Mojmir, Rastislav, St. Constantine, St. Methodius, St. Benedict, St. Svorad, and St. Gorazd. Simply look at a map at www.nitra.sk
- The first known church in the territory of "Great Moravia" was established in Nitra in 828. This is evidence that the town had enormous importance.
- The first known monastery in the territory of "Great Moravia" was established in Nitra during 880-881. This is evidence that the town was the priority for Svätopluk.
- The first known bishopric in the territory of "Great Moravia" was established in Nitra during June, 880. This act is evidence that the town was the priority for Svätopluk, and, since the numerous churches it included, was the "holy city" of St. Methodius.
- Nitra was the first town in the territory of "Great Moravia" to be mentioned in a written document. The document was written during 828.
- Nitra was mentioned in more documents from the 9th-10th centuries than any other city in the territory of Great Moravia. This fact provides proof that Nitra held an enormous importance in not only the entire Slavic world, but all of Europe.
- After the fall of "Great Moravia," Nitra was made the seat for Hungarian princes. This is evidence, since the Hungarians chose it as their seat, that the town was very developed (churches, fortifications, markets, skilled blacksmiths and goldsmiths, palaces, several bridges, etc...)
- Nitra, like Devin and Bratislava, has a very important geographic position. It is located on trade paths and is located at the feat of the Carpathian Mountains (most famous mountain in Nitra is the Zobor Mountain).
- Nitra also has the warmest temperatures in Slovakia and has some of the best viticulture in the world. Nitra also, of course, has the Nitra River. Slovak princes chose Nitra as their seat because of these factors. Areas in Morava held very little importance in "Great Moravia" because they don't have any significant geographic features that offer protection or agriculture.
- The other center of "Great Moravia" was Devin, which looking at a picture of the castle, one can understand just why it was chosen as a fort to guard the western border of "Great Moravia." Devin is located at the "Devin Gate," a major trade post, and is located at the confluence of the Danube and Morava Rivers. The Slavic settlement was located at the Devin Castle, on top of the large stone which was difficult to reach, thus the reason why Rastislav was so successful in defending its walls.

My request: When I wrote "Nitra was the metropolis of Great Moravia" or "Nitra was the capital of the Great Moravian Empire," somebody always edited it and wrote "Nitra was one of the biggest cities in Great Moravia." First of all, the word "biggest" tells people who read the article that the person who wrote it is no older than 10 years old, so grow up. Second, if there was a town larger than Nitra, why hasn't anyone found it yet. Nitra was the largest city, it consisted of five settlements and twenty markets. If there was a city larger than this, we would have surely have found it already. Nitra, Devin, Uzhhorod, and Bratislava were the only towns to have been mentioned by name in documents made during the 10th century or earlier. All of them have developed over the centuries into important cities (or castles such as Devin). Bratislava is the capital of the Slovak Republic and Nitra stayed as one of the most important cities throughout the 11th-21st centuries and is today the fourth largest city in Slovakia. If there was a city larger than Nitra, what happened to it? Why did it cease to develop and how come no one can find it if it was so large? well, Samarkand, Efesos or Pergamon also were flourishing cities at their time, they, too, like many settlements and cities in the world perished due to infavourable (changing) natural (climatic) conditions.

- - - - Sincerely,
      - Knieza

P.S. If anyone wants sources on my information I would be happy to provide you with the sources. Simply post your questions, but no later than September 26, 2005. Thank You

[edit] huh?

you are trolling, aren't you? *All* of your so-called "proofs" are just "proofs" that current Slovakia is located on the territory of former "Great Moravia" and that we honour the cultural and archaelogical heritage of Great Moravia. And that there is a statue of Pribina in Nitra just means that we recognize his role in the history, after all, it weren't the ancient Slavs to put his statue here as a proof for you! rado 06:55, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Exactly...Juro 23:22, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Knieza, we know you are looking for a great history for Slovakia, but falsifying history is not a way of doing it. From your comments it would seem that Great Moravia was a misnomer. C'mon, grow up. Moravia is in Moravia, and Moravia controlled your petty principality of Nitra.

I agree, only that at that time ment probably a toothpick to all of the peoples of Nitra and Morava how they were called. They were one nation probably, if of a nation we can speak. really, Knieza, grow up.

[edit] RFC

I have unprotected this article and Slovakia, and made an entry in the relevant Requests for comment page about this dispute. Perhaps some more opinions will help to produce a resolution. --Tony Sidaway ^Talk 17:00, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mikulčice was the capital

Most hisorians agree that Mikulčice was the capital of Great Moravia, at least that's what children in Czech schools are taught (don't know about Slovakia though). +Hexagon1 ^(t) 11:14, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Children and everybody in Slovakia learns the same capital and Mikulcice are considered the capital in every text on Great Moravia. In addition, even if there is no 100% proof for the particular capital, one thing is sure - Nitra is the "last" place which could have been the capital because it is mentioned parallely with Moravia (Mikulcice) and because it was conquered from and by Moravia. Juro 13:55, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Juro, you made a bad mistake with your false information (lies) that "everybody in Slovakia learns the same capital and Mikulcice are considered the capital in every text on Great Moravia." I have a library of books and the only one which considers Mikulcice as the capital of Great Moravia is a fiction book on Slavic gods - no accuracy, doesn't even include Perun, Svarog, or Svantovit. This particular book was published during the communist era. The rest of my books, coming from Matica Slovenska, Toronto, Lexicon, etc. refer to Nitra as the capital of Great Moravia.

What makes this filthy little village of twenty people-Mikulcice-so significant? The archeological site of Mikulcice is only half the size of that at Ducove-Kostolec, which is only 1/10 the size of Nitra or 1/3 of Devin. Mikulcice had only one church. Nitra had 7 churches. Nitra also had the only monestary and only known bishopric in Great Moravia. Where do you get this "probable capital of Great Moravia was called Morava" garbage? The name Morava isn't found in any writing from the 10th century (or earlier).

The archeological site of Mikulcice, unlike Nitra is located close to the river Morava, where it was found on an elevated plateau (maybe even an island). The archeological locality shows that it must have been a great city during its times of glory and that it contained two large churches, at least seven smaller ones and a ruler's palace made of stone. The downfall of the city was probably due to the growing number of attacks from the Magyar tribes but also, which may prove more important, to the growing frequency and strenght of flooding. This was caused by populating ever higher located regions (up the river course), burning and cutting of forests took place which resulted in large scale erosion and later led to elimination of many settlements in the lower regions (today, the valleys of Morava and Dyje rivers belong to the most scarsely populated in southern Moravia). Thus, Nitra had the luck of being located on a hill, which protected it both from the floods and the guerila of Magyars.

Did it ever occur to you that the name "Morava" is the native name for what is called incorrectly "Moravia?" Notice that the name Morava, the native name for "Moravia" has no "sko" at the end of it (Slovensko, Slovinsko, Cesko, etc.) which means that the title "ia" at the end of the English translation is wrong. Do you also know that the name "Moravia" is a German word meaning "killing fields." Tell me why would the Old Slovaks call themselves "conquered people"-("Moravians")? It you haven't already realized, the vernacular (the native inhabitants) of Great Moravia refered to themselves, according to writen documents (Proglas, Law of People, etc.) as "Sloveni" which means "Slovak" (Slovensko, Slovenska, Slovencina, etc.)in English or Czech.

Mikulcice has absolutely no features what so ever to make it seem significant for those times or present times. It only has the Morava River, but has no hills, mountains, mining, metal-working, or palaces. Nitra, on the other hand, has the Nitra River, Zobor Mountains, is located at the feat of the Carpathians, and has the Nitra Valley - one of the best viticultures in all of Europe. Nitra also had its own governing nobility - the Principality of Nitra, which lasted from the 8th-11th century:

Pribina, prince of Nitra during 825-833.
Svatopluk, prince of Nitra during 858-871/894.
Poznans, nobles of Nitra (9th century to 11th century).
Hunts, nobles of Nitra (9th century to 11th century).

If Mikulcice was so important then why is is still today just a filthy, isolated village with a population of only 20? How come, if it was such a great city during the ninth century, it didn't develop, like Nitra, Bratislava, or Devin did? Mikulcice has absolutely no trade routes as well. It had as much importance to Great Moravia as it does to Slovak-Czech archeologists today (NONE!). Also, tell me why Sts. Cyril, Benedict, and Svorod are buried in Nitra ( http://www.nitra.sk/en/ ) and not in Mikulcice? If you haven't already realized, the citizens take a much great pride in Great Moravia than those lonely peasants and drunks you find in the Mikulcice village. Nitra has Pribina's Statue, Pribina's Square, Pribina's Street, Pribina's Plaza, Pribina's Church, Pribina's sword, Svatopluk's Square, Svatopluk's Street, Rastislav's Street, Mojmir's Street, Kocel's Street, Predslav's Street, Sv. Cyril Street, Sv. Cyril a Sv. Method Street, Sts. Cyril and Methodius statue, four Great Moravian seats, Great Moravian style seats in the pedestrian zone, Great Moravian lamp posts, Great Moravian sewers, and an entire museum dedicated almost entirely to Great Moravia. The Nitra Museum includes everything from a 10th century portrait of Rastislav in Byzantine style, a cup of Methodius, a diadem (crown) of the rulers of Great Moravia, exhibitions of skilled Nitra metal-workers, exhibits of typical lifestyle of Old Slovaks, etc. Nitra even has its own festivals dedicated to the established fact that Nitra was the capital of Great Moravia

Here are a couple of official websites made by the Slovak Tourist Board and the Ministry of Foregin Affairs of Slovakia:

Several historic texts also testify that Nitra was the capital of Great Moravia, including the Nitra Codex and Zobor Documents, the song "Nitra, mila Nitra" - the anthem of the city of Nitra dating back to 1864, which is song by the student's corus at the Nitra Castle every day.

PS, dont tell me that the Old Magyars totally destroyed Mikulcice and that is why archeologists regard it as an unimportant site of Great Moravia. I believe this Czech-propaganda theory that the Magyars totally destroyed Mikulcice has been disproven several times. After all, anyone with common sense would know that the Magyars, or anyone else during that time period, would not bother to make every stone turn to sand and to scatter every remain to the far corners of Europe. Even fire would leave ashes so tell us why haven't archologists found any traces of a Mikulcice castle from the 9th century. Most importantly, why wasn't Mikulcice, if Mikulcice was the seat of rulers, fortified with stone - like Nitra, Devin, or Blatnohrad? Notice that Nitra had 7 churches and already had stone fortifications, because of its location - large trade, skilled craftsman, and noblity.

I have to agree with what some have already said about Knieza's argument - he correct! Once again, he is right that his opposition fails to provide a related argument - they only result to name calling as if they haven't mastered the social skills you learn in elementary school. Juro, so far, has been the closest to providing a decent argument to Knieza but his introduction "Children and everybody in Slovakia learns the same capital and Mikulcice are considered the capital in every text on Great Moravia." blew it for him because it is biased and totally not supported. It was more just a mere pathetic cover-up, an effort to convince the public of his rightesouness. All he really cares is that he keeps his reputation on Wikipedia, because it is all he has in life. Juro, as any high school teacher will tell you from the first day of class, "YOU MUST LIST YOUR SOURCES!" I believe none of us are familiar with these "Slovak books" you claim that state "Mikulcice was the capital of Great Moravia."

(The same for you Hexagon). PS, Hexagon, I couldn't care one bit if your Czech schools teach Mikulcice as the capital of Great Moravia. For fifty years your Czech schools have also been teaching that the Tatras belong to Czechs (Czech Tatra Mountains, Czech City of Bratislav, Czech City of Nitra was the capital of the Great Moravian Empire in the 9-10th centuries, Czech town of Levoca, Czech castle of Trencin seated..., etc. - Lonely Planet & Brittanica). The Constitution of Slovakia declares the Great Moravian Empire as the first Slovak State, -

- "We, the Slovak nation, mindful of the political and cultural heritage of our forebears, and of the centuries of experience from the struggle for national existence and our own statehood, in the sense of the spiritual heritage of Cyril and Methodius and the historical legacy of the Great Moravian Empire, proceeding from the natural right of nations to self-determination, together with members of national minorities and ethnic groups living on the territory of the Slovak Republic, in the interest of lasting peaceful cooperation with other democratic states, seeking the application of the democratic form of government and the guarantees of a free life and the development of spiritual culture and economic prosperity, that is, we, citizens of the Slovak Republic, adopt through our representatives the following Constitution:"

What unofficial books, magazines, websites, or newspapers say is irrelevant and have no value. Since the Constitution of Slovakia declares the Great Moravian Empire as the first Slovak state, it is official. Just like the effort of Czech computer nerds trying to make the name "Czechia" popular on the internet while the Czech government itself never uses the name "Czechia," nor does any other official document (Constitution, Anthem, etc.) or organization (Czech National Bank, Czech Tourist Board, etc.) associated with the Czech Republic. Not unless the Czech government officialy adobts the name Czechia, the name Czechia cannot be used in atlases, dictionaries, encyclopedias (including Wikipedia), or referrence books.

Well, to anybody who reads the above: Every single sentence is complete non-sense. I repeat, NOBODY (not even Durica) says that Nitra was the capital of Great Moravia, because it is just historically impossible. Children in schools from elementary sch. to univesities have in their books and all associated literature (like Lexikon of Slovak history) that the probable capital was Mikulčice. The reason are archaeological findings that (increasingly) show that the capital must have been there. I repeat, the main point is: while nobody can prove that Mikulčice was not the capital, it is absolutely straightforward that precisely Nitra(va) was not the capital (i.e. not the town called Morava), because (as opposed to any other Great Moravian town) it is mentioned explicitely by the name Nitra and it was conquered from Morava. If you have a text claiming something else you can just throw it away, because it is worth nothing.Juro 21:25, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Very interesting but not even worth to argue with you Juro. Would you mind telling us from which historic document do we know that the "probable capital of Great Moravia was called 'Morava'" Youre knowledge from Great Moravia is stricktly limited to what you here/see on Wikipedia. I am certain that you never even been to any museum or archeological site - the Nitra museum or Devin museum/exhibition. Juro, you stated that archeologists found findings that support Mikulcice as the "probable capital of Great Moravia." Would you tell me what these "findings" really are (or are you just believing everything you read on Czech websites?)? Did they find any well-decorated jewelry as already found in Nitra, Devin, or Ducove? Did they find any evidence of a bishopric being established in Mikulcice? Did they find any crown or royal seat in Mikulcice. The "Nitra Diadem" (a diadem is basically a crown) (10th century) is in the Nitra museum and archeologists also found remains of Great Moravian noble stone seats which have been repaired into copies of four Great Moravian seats, located at the Nitra Regional Musem and Pedestrian Zone. Did Mikulcice have its own monestary like Nitra or its own school like Nitra and Devin? Did Mikulcice even have any palace or stone fortifications?

- As you go down the list, you will realize that all my questions are answered with "NO."

As you compare Nitra to Mikulcice you will realize:

Nitra had stone fortification; Mikulcice did not.
Nitra had a monestary and written documents; Mikulcice did not.
Nitra appeared in four (828,878,880,881) different documents from the 9th century; Mikulcice was never mentioned in any written document from the 10th century or earlier.
Nitra had 20 markets (metal-workers, trade markets, shops, etc.); Mikulcice had only a blacksmith's shop - 1
Nitra had 7 churches; Mikulcice had only 1
Nitra's oldest church dates back to 828; Mikulcice's dates back to 890
Nitra has mountains - the Zobor Mountain; Mikulcice has no geographic features that provide defence
Nitra is located on ancient trade routes (that is why it developed already by the 9th century into a large city), Mikulcice has no special geographic position (that is why today it is just a village of a few dozen)
Nitra had a bishopric, Mikulcice did not
Nitra had five fortified settlements, the one on Nitra Castle was fortified with stone; Mikulcice's size is only 1/5 of what Nitra was during the early 9th century and consisted of only one fortified settlement

BTW, Juro did you know that Mikulcice is located at the Slovak-Moravian border? Its sister, Kopcany, is located on the east side of the Morava. In the village of Kopcany stands a church that is almost entirely from the 9th century. It was in the tombs and graves around this church (in Slovakia) that archeologists discovered gold and bronze belts, swords, spears, and a cross - which is kept in an exhibition in the Nitra Museum. Mikulcice, which is located on the west of the Morava, had only few graves. I would suggest you stop believing everything you read on your websites and instead go visit the museums and archeological sites. Maybe you will then better understand why before the 1980's, when internet was made, Mikulcice was never considered the capital of Great Moravia.

IF you really know anything at all then I would be happy that you provide me with pictures and sources for your "findings" so that we may see your point-of-view.

Thank you for attempting to discuss this! Please let's not be inflammatory -- if this AOL user's contributions are completely without merit, they should be ignored. Otherwise, we should find a mutually acceptable way of representing them in the article. I don't mean to get into the middle, but another thing to mention is that User:Juro is easily the most active and credible Slovak contributor. Jbetak 23:11, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Okay first of all, I don't take seriously anyone who doesn't even bother getting an account. You could be a sockpuppet for all I know. Second of all, I TAKE EXTREME OFFENCE to some of your statements. I have never seen an educated person say "I couldn't care one bit if [...]" about ANYTHING. Any reasonably intelligent person looks at every issue from many viewpoints, and doesn't blindly follow their hostility towards any nation (or people). I could just as easily say "I couldn't care one bit about the Slovak Constitution". You seem to be saying that because the Slovak Constitution says so, it's gotta be true. Also you holding the Czech Republic's past goverment against me is like me holding that America was once a PRISON-COLONY of England against all Americans. By the way, Slovakia and the Czech republic have the 8th and 9th freeest press in the world according to Reporters Without Borders, with ratings of 0.75 and 1.00 respectively, up from 11.25 in just 2002. Czech Republic today (and I'm sure this goes for Slovakia too), looks nothing like the old Communist state. By the way, children in Taiwan learn that the entire mainland China is part of the Republic of China (Taiwan). Does that discredit their archeological views? I don't think so. I'm sorry if I'm not making any sense, but there's too much blood in my caffeine stream (and i'm quite mad at the unsigned user above's blatantly discriminative comments.) If you say that Nitra was the capital of Great Moravia within Czech and Slovak academic circles, all you'll get is strange looks from everyone. Mikulčice is quite clearly the capital, but it is possible (and likely) that Nitra was the larger city (much like Canberra is the capital of Australia, yet Sydney is by far the largest city in Australia) PS: You claim we don't cite our sources, but where are yours? Show me an old school textbook from 50 years ago showing the Tatras as part of Czech territory, and I might take you seriously - You are the unregisered user making outrageous claims here.) +Hexagon1 (talk) 11:30, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

IMO, the whole discussion about the "capital" of Great Moravia does not deserve that much time and energy. Administration of early medieval states was not very centralized and kings/princes spent a significant part of their lives campaigning. It would be perhaps more reasonable to use the term “center” or “centers” than “capital”. Anyway, Nitra was a seat of the Heir (Svatopluk I during Rastislav’s reign, Svatopluk II during Mojmir II’s reign), so it is quite clear that the main ruler resided elsewhere. Mikulčice is certainly the most widely accepted candidate.Tankred 17:11, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Hear hear! Let's stop this pointless bickering, we should list both the cities and say historians are divided over the issue. +Hexagon1 (talk) 11:28, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

The point is they are NOT divided, because the Nitra alternative does not make any sense. If someone writes something on a wikipedia talk page, that does not mean automatically, that it is just one of the existing scientific opinions. Frequently, it is just non-sense, just like in this case. Do not bring this project ad absurdum. Juro 06:39, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Juro that Nitra could not be a seat of the main ruler, because it was an appanage of his heir. I added a paragraph about the centers of Great Moravia that hopefully clarifies the problem without pushing any unsubstantiated opinion. The main elements are (1) Mikulcice as the most widely accepted candidate, (2) impossibility of safe identification because of missing direct archeological evidence (such as royal graves or the word “Morava” scribbled on a wall), (3) the role of Nitra, and (4) the nature of administration of early medieval empires that makes the whole issue somewhat irrelevant.Tankred 12:18, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Have a look at the PS in my before-last post, I was assuming we'd get sources soon. And you people need to calm down. I am content with Tankred's solution, let's leave it at that. +Hexagon1 (talk)

10:19, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More trash from Communist Prague and their Novotny, Gottwald, Stalin, etc. propaganda

Karolkalna put a new map of Great Moravia which is always welcome but, deleting already established information is not welcome at all. Juro, how come you don't write on Karolkalna's map "Ignoring the title and symbols, the map is largely correct"? Surely we all know that no single map on this planet is 100% accurate but, unless you write on every single map that the map is "largely correct," I don't see why you have to write it on the older map of Great Moravia. Her map is on the other hand absolutely not correct and Karolkalna's misinterpretation that the map shows the original territory displays Karolkalna's knowledge on the subject. It is clear that Karolkalna has no knowledge but just wants to establish his/her opinion on this website - NOT ACCEPTABLE! Furthermore, she did site her source, which I do appreciate (for starters) but, her source was not credible - meaning it is not an official website of any thing. It would be like using www.rottentomato.com, www.geocities.com, www.johny316.com, or www.wikipedia.com to write a history book. Her website had no accuracy in the entire article because for example, it used the name "Rostislav" instead of Rastislav throughout. Proper research of Rastislav of Devin (Rastic, Rastislaus, Rastiz, Rastislaus Dowina) would reveal that Rastislav is featured on Slovak stamps (www.telecom.gov.sk) which include the spelling of his name as "RASTISLAV" - not the modern Czech propaganda of "Rostislav." Karolkalna's website also included no actual historic documents, quotes from historians/archeologists, or pictures of archeological findings, not even links to books or magazines about the subject. I suggest that we include both maps so that readers will not be mislead to thinking Great Moravia included all of present-day Czech Republic from 833 so on. Remember, the Czechs became a part of Great Moravia only when the Slovak king Svatopluk conquered them and forced the Czechs to pay homage to the Great Moravian state. The Czechs were unhappy in Great Moravia and that is why the offered themselves to their western neighbors for protection from Svatopluk.

it is a bad idea to present a map with GREAT SLOVAK KINGDOM (old slovak, ancient slovak is OK) - only a fake, and symbols of current Slovakia have more to do with hisrorical Hungary, less with Great Moravia, copyright of map is dubios, source is problenmatic, please delete it. see Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion/2006 January 15 --Mt7 22:18, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Blatnica Sword

After visiting the Nitra Museum, I got interesting information on the Blatnica Sword. I would like to add a picture of the famous sword to the Great Moravia article within one week. May anyone tell me if I need to do some registering to add images to Wiki.

[edit] Zlate Moravce in Ancient Slovakia

Dear Juraj, I do not know you and I have really no idea if you can even speak Slovak because if you could, you would have, could I say, more "common sense" in the history of ancient Slovakia. Morowa, the name given to today's Zlate Moravce in the ancient Zobor Charter of 1113, translates to Morava. Read more on Zlate Moravce's website to get a better understanding. Morowa is translated to Morava as Dowina is translated to Devin, Nitria to Nitra, etc. And as we can clearly see, most official sources (official websites of museums, governments, districts, universities, etc.) claim that Nitra was the capital and make no mention of any town on the territory of Great Moravia being called "Morava." I have not found a mention in any official source that the "probable capital of Great Moravia was called Morava." This is because the oldest referrence to a town called Morava/Morowa comes from an entry from the Zobor Charter, which was written over a century after the disappearance of the Old Slovak Kingdom.

This is the greatest stupidity I have ever heard, do you really think that nobody in Slovakia knows that?? Of course, this is a well-known name and it is also well-known that it is a much later name. This is incredible, shouldn't I explain to you that the Earth turns around the Sun? Or do you have another "common sense" discovery in this field, as well? :))) Juro 05:22, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

As Wikipedia is already known to be a "non-credible" source and has established itself around education as completely useless as the dog shit and ketchup stains that finds itself rotting on the shirts of the mentally sick that found their home on Wikipedia, I find it obvious the kids on Wikipedia's chat rooms don't even understand that the name Slovensko translates to Slovakia. I do not wish to get involved in this pathetic argument among communists from Bratislava (especialy since not only foreign tourists, but all people in Slovakia hate people from Bratislava because Bratislavians are completely hateful and unpleasant little peasants involved in drug smuggling, smuggling humans, prostitution, and crime --- communists, magyars, czechs --- totally against Slovakia and the teachings of democracy from the spiritual heritage of Sts. Cyril and Methodius), but please tell me which document (written before the 12th century) makes a mention of a town called "Morava" (Morowa). I have looked and not a single book in my university's library mentions this unknown fairy tale of "Morava." In fact, the only referrences that mention a town called "Morava" are on the internet. Those websites that make a mention of a town of the 9th century being called Morava are a couple online encyclopedias (linked to Wikipedia), websites which copied information from Wikipedia, and a few sources on the town of Zlate Moravce. So tell me, is it just a coincidence that Wikipedia is literallly the only source that mentions a town called "Morava" or is it just the typical babble of a few stupid dirt poor kids with nothing else to do but, create their own "facts" so that when their big-nosed, Czech prostitute mother tells them about how Slovaks stole the history of "Czech prince Rostislav" and stole the entire stunning "Czech Tatra Mountains," they can feel some comfort in their isolated little lives.

We all appreciate your willingness to discuss this, instead of instigating endless reverts. I'm not sure if you are expecting an answer to your post above in its entirety, as much of it is IMHO just a rant.

I'll sidestep any derogatory personal comments you might have made. Let me assure you however that I can empathize with your feelings and attitude, and at the same time I have to remind you that Wikipedia does not endorse promotion of original research. Much of the content you are contributing could fall into that category. I am not going to debate the validity of your observations, as I am not an expert in that field. I do know whatever, that you can hardly find Zlate Moravce as former capital of Great Moravia in the Brittanica.

That being said, this does not mean that the article couldn't or shouldn't mention something about ongoing research or say that the location of its former capital is source of much speculation (or something along those lines).

Although this could be worked out stylistically, what would need to change is your willingness to respect and collaborate with the other kids (to use your own vernacular) on Wikidpedia and a resolve to compromise. I hate to sound like a broken record or come off as unempathetic, but if there is anything I can do, please let me know. Jbetak 00:12, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

This is a hopeless case, Jbetak, he is unable to write one normal sentence and to use his brain. I have checked his edits several times in the past. By calling the others here "kids", he means himself - he was involved in some vandalisms (just "for fun") and edited texts on cartoons etc. This is called hypocrisy. He has absolutely no idea what he is talking about. Any discussions are just a waste of time. 10-year old school children in Slovakia know more than he. Juro 00:26, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Hey! I certainly hope not. He seems a bit more mature, although a bit disoriented in terms of contribution guidelines and collaboration style. He is editing from an AOL account (netscape.com actually), which is using a number of proxies and has zillions of users. AOL is very mainstream in the U.S. and is mostly used for its parental controls and for its convenience. I'd not be surprised to see a disproportionate number of teen edits from these accounts on Wikipedia, but I'm reasonably sure we are talking to a parent in this case. So better wipe the snot off your nose kiddo and look presentable! ;-) Interesting discussion on Talk:History of Slovakia BTW. Jbetak 00:42, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I checked him weeks ago and I do not think that the same IP can be used by different persons at the same time (correct me if I am wrong). Unfortunately I do not remember the pages etc. anymore. Irrespective of this, what he is saying is absolute non-sense how ever old he is... And eh, where is my handkerchief ? :-) Juro 02:21, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I was gone for two days. I was going to explain the issue with AOL's proxy servers, but I don't think there is any need at this point. Let me just point out that it's entirely possible that several users are editing concurrently from any of the hundreds of proxy servers AOL maintains. I will apply for semiprotection of the pages, unless you do it first. Sigh. Jbetak 01:35, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I would like to give the heads up to who ever wrote the silly comment about Brittanica because, correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't Brittanica have unaccepted and totally false statements such as under the Czech Republic article, you will find that the highest peak in the CR is called "Gerlach" (which is in central-north Slovakia)? I also found some rediculous statements in Brittanica which I have never found anywhere else such as "Czechoslovakian prince Sviatopolk united the Slavic lands of Bohemia, Moravia, and Slovakia in 874." I think the trouble is that Juro refuses to acknowledge the fact that Wikipedia is NOT an official source because he has devoted his entire life to Wikipedia (which is more useless than the random yells of Henny Penny about the sky falling down). It is more like a random newspaper because the information you read on Wikipedia is only what the editors want you to read. Brittanica (and all encyclopedias around the world including Slovakopedia) are simply, you could say, third party sources (filtered sources) - eg. newspapers, magazines, etc.

Second, I am not trying to establish that Zlate Moravce was the capital of Great Moravia. There is only one book which I found that claims Zlate Moravce was the capital and it is a fiction book about Slavic gods written thirty years ago. However, we should surely not become the first to discredit Zlate Moravce because it was a obviously a very large center during the 9th and 10th centuries with its own church still standing today (Kostolany pod Tribecom) and it consisting of two large towns, both being fortified with wooden walls and towers.

The only ancient text written during the Middle Ages that mentions a town called Morava that I found is the Zobor Documents of the early 12th C. However, they do not make a referrence to present day Mikulcice but, to Zlate Moravce (obviously because the author was describing the towns under the influence of the Zobor Monastery).

We all know that Nitra (Nitrava, Nitra, Nitria, Nitrensis) was mentioned several times during the 9/10th centuries (Conversions of Bavarians and Carinthians 828-871, Life of Methodius 864-886, Pope John VIII's Bull Industriae Tuae of June 880). We also know that Devin (Dowina, Douina), being the site of a battle between Rastislav (Rastizen) and the Franks during 864, is mentioned in the Annals of Fulda and that the Battle of Bratislava (Breslausepurch) during 907 is mentioned in the Annals of Salzburg. The town of [Zlate] Moravce (Morowa) is mentioned in the Zobor Documents (early 12th century). Now, I would like to know if there was a document written before the 12th C that mentioned a town called Morava (Morawa, Marha, Morowa, or Morabia maybe?). Otherwise, give up this useless garbage about the "probable capital (being) called Morava."

P.S. Your useless insults to discredit me will not get you out of this one Juro. So you better have some relevant argument with at least some knowledge about Slovakia because if you don't, then you shouldn't be discussing it.

Jbetak, You can take Juro's side of the argument if you like. Juro has shown himself as just a typical coward. {personal attacks and ranting removed}

This is not a conspiracy or a plot to suppress your opinion. All editors, at least the ones that stick around, end up workin withing the conventions or policies of Wikipedia. While I agree that some of them are not perfect, the project has made great progress - against all odds and all naysayers. Some of the processes can be taxing, if you are not used to it, but that's another issue.

The problem we have here is that you have attempted to insert controversial content several times and have grown more and more emotional about it. This is not ununsual. However, you must understand that you automatically limit your credibility when you edit anonymously. While I might not agree with Juro on some issues and or in editing style, I am conviced that he is quite knowlegeable and believe that it's a great win for Wikipedia if he continues to donate some of his time.

I don't mean to put you down or say that your edits are not welcome. However, the simple fact that a page has an edit tab does not mean that all of your edits will stick. The project is set up with checks and balances and works rather well. All of us were in the same situation at some point. Given what happened, I think you'd need to come to some agreement with Juro, if that's even possible at this point, or edit in other sections of Wikipedia. You might even consider the Slovak Wikipedia Best Jbetak 01:35, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The location of the oldest school in Ancient Slovakia

Once again, it seems that Wikipedia makes statements which are limited to only Wikipedia and its fellow online encyclopedias. I am aware that archeologists in the past decade uncovered a school from the late 9th century at the Devin Castle but, this has not become too noticed yet among official sources, yet even universities in Slovakia. It has always been considered that the St. Method's Academy next to the Zobor Monastery was the first school in Slovakia. For more detail visit: http://www.telecom.gov.sk/externe/znamky/1995/9560e.html

I wonder why Juro is afraid to discuss why everything besides his work is "vandalism." Im sorry Juro, I did not realize you developed this website. I have provided sources for my information now how about you try to provide a source for your rediculous claim about the capital being called "Morava."

After looking at articles related to Slovakia, it is clear that I am not the only person to question credibility and factual accuracy of Juro's information. I especially hate {personal attack removed}.

My apologies - I was gone for two days. I have to say that I'm not sure what exactly you wish to achieve with all this. You wish to include information, which would fall under original research, you rant against currently accepted common knowledge and don't even shy away from antagonizing other editors or spewing hateful nationalist comments.

What purpose is this to serve? To force the content you think should be in a couple of articles on Wikipedia, which you at the same time dismiss as being unworthy of anyone's time and effort.

I have removed most of your derogatory commnets per Wikipedia's policy. If you are not able to discuss this calmly, without personal attacks and excessive verbosity, then it might be best if you found some other venue. Please try to understand how this project works before engaging in such escapades. I believe you already have a user account. It would be of great help if you started using it, as we might need to apply for semi-protection of the pages in question. Thank you for your understanding Jbetak 01:35, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Culture

Although the article is now quite comprehensive, there is almost no information about culture. So, if anyone of you has particular knowledge about Great Moravian litterature, architecture, artifacts, and so one, I would like to encourage you to edit this part. Its present form is extremely unsatisfactory. Tankred 21:42, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nitria?

Nitria redirects here, yet the word is not found in the article. Could someone include something explaining how Nitria relates?

The OED relates "Nitrian" as "Of, relating to, or designating the desert region of Nitria, to the west of Cairo in Egypt, esp. as the place of settlement of a group of ascetic Christian hermit monks in the 4th cent." The Jade Knight 07:45, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

"Nitrian" is an adjective related to the city of Nitra and the Principality of Nitra (which used to be a part of Great Moravia). For example, another name of that principality is the "Nitrian Principality". "Nitria" is also similar to the Hungarian name of Nitra ("Nitryia" or something like that). I guess this is why an unknown editor linked the rulers of the Principality of Nitra in the Lists of state leaders in different years (22 articles according to [1]) to Nitria. There was no separate article about the principality at that time. Well, feel free to disambiguate the Nitria article. Lists of rulers shoud link to the Principality of Nitra and I will try to fix it when I have more time. Tankred 17:18, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] map

this article desperately needs a map. Nothing available? -- TheMightyQuill 19:07, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree. I have been looking for a good map for ages. But it seems someone must create it first. There is nothing available. Do you have any experience with map making? Tankred 19:28, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

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