User talk:Gram123

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Contents 1 Pics 2 Moving pages 3 Re: Late Night Tales 4 List of independent record labels 5 Football pics 6 Fabric Live 17 7 Amady / Amdy 8 Eastern Cinema template 9 Fair use images 10 Zero 7 11 Ran (film) 12 re: Black Star 13 East Asian Cinema 14 Articles you might like to edit, from SuggestBot 15 Image:Rae&Christian promophoto.jpg 16 More replaceable fair use images 17 Removal of images: reponse 18 Welcome to the Films WikiProject! 19 WP:FILMS Newsletter

[edit] Pics

Hi, nice work on adding DVD covers / posters for Kitano and Park Chan-wook films - some of my fav directors from Asia. Can't wait for UK release of Lady Vengeance. :) ~ Ajshm 14:06, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

• Cheers. I'm pretty new here, so I'm just adding stuff that interests me as I find out how... Think I might copy your gallery format for pics on my user page, that's pretty cool!

Gram 14:31, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Moving pages

When you move a page, use Move function. You can see it in the top of the page. You can read more about it in Moving a page guide. The Move function is the only way to move the article edit history along the page. You can't do it by simply cutting and pasting text into a new location. The edit history is left in the old article location, where it is hard to find. But we must know the edit history, because Wikipedia's GFDL licence requires attribution, which means acknowledging the authors of the articles. So a cut and a paste move is actually a copyright infringement.

Also, you should familiarize yourself with Wikipedia:Naming conventions. The title that you gave for the Stars On 33 (Aim) article is against the guidelines. I made the page a redirect to the correct title. I moved the disambiguation page to the correct album article title, and then reverted the album article. (The disambiguation page had the essential edit history because you left it there when you cut and pasted the text elsewhere.) I created a more illustrating disambiguation page, so I have solved this problem. The situation isn't always as fortunate, sometimes people have to ask an administrator to solve the problem.

If you can't move a page with Move function, ask an administrator to move it at Wikipedia:Requested moves. -Hapsiainen 23:25, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

• Ok, understood. I will bear this in mind for the future. Cheers. Gram 09:47, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Late Night Tales

Hi Gram123,

good work on the Late Night Tales albums. I'd always use categories for large series of such items, and when there are more DJ-Kicks articles they will get one too. A suggestion: Maybe you should add a {{album infobox}} to your album stubs? You don't have to fill out all the blanks in them, but in my opinion, an album article with a complete infobox is nearly past the stub stage already. I've added one to DJ-Kicks: Nightmares on Wax now, you can see how it's done there - more information is at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Albums#Table. Anyway, good work - and keep it up! -- grm_wnr Esc 21:51, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Category:Aim albums is already done right (except that all categories should have supercategories, which I've already added). You just have to put "[[Category:Grand Central Records albums]]" into the article text, save, then click the red link in the categories bar and create the category page (with supercategories - the Grand Central one would get Category:Albums by record label). After that it should work. A tip: When linking to a category, use a colon before the Category name, like this: "[[:Category:Grand Central Records albums]]", which creates Category:Grand Central Records albums. Without the colon, you just put the page into the category, and the link isn't displayed. I hope that helps - I have to go to bed now and can't categorize the pages myself, but if there are still problems I can help you tomorrow. -- grm_wnr Esc 00:21, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] List of independent record labels

Hi Gram123, I see you have been adding countries to some labels in the list of independent record labels. That's nice, but wouldn't it be better if all lists of record labels are done in the same way? Extra information in the list when the article is not created yet (eg website, country, ...) but once the article is started there is no need anymore for this in the list. Please check also List of record labels, List of independent UK record labels, List of electronic music record labels, List of jungle and drum n bass record labels who all use this method (most of the time). warpozio 19:58, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

• Ok. Gram 15:10, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Football pics

Hi Gram123

Just wanted to know if all those pictures from 4thegame.com can actually be used here. Thanks. -Aabha (talk) 16:46, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Gram123

I notice that you've been removing your pictures from their respective articles. I just wanted to be sure about their license, had no intention of claiming that their use wasn't correct. I'm sure your intentions were absolutely right, but we've to be sure we don't violate anyone else's rights. Hope you understand what I meant. -Aabha (talk) 07:25, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Fabric Live 17

yeah i just rotated the tracks and titles, it just makes more sence to me. i am slowly adding the other Fabric Mix Albums so was just keaping it consistent. Junior Aspirin 21:21, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

• ok thanks, i didnt realise the was a standard. i will change the others to match, thanks for clarifying. Junior Aspirin 19:46, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Amady / Amdy

Because I'm an arse and despite changing the link you (rightly) corrected to the version you corrected *from*, I forgot to change it back wnen I swapped the mis-spelt article over from it's redirection. And if that makes no sense, drop me message and I'll explain it better when I'm sober... IainP (talk) 00:33, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Eastern Cinema template

You can find these templates by editing the page that hosts it and checking at the bottom of the page for the template. Here is the one for European cinema http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:EuropeanCinema --Jahsonic 22:56, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use images

I notice that you have a lot of fair use images on your user page (according to this report, 229 of them). You should know that, in accordance with Wikipedia:Fair use#Fair use policy, you can't display these images on user pages. I suggest that you either remove them from your user page, or write the link like so: [[:Image:Somefile.jpg]] (note the colon at the front) so as to link to the image without displaying it. --bainer (talk) 01:05, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

• I had no idea we weren't allowed to display such pics on user pages. I guess that would be my main criticism of Wikipedia - there's so many help pages and guidelines, pointers and projects, policies and preferences, that it can be easy to miss important info. It's a real shame cos it made my life easier and made my user page look nice, but I guess rules is rules. I've removed them as per your suggestion. Gram 11:03, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

It's a sort of legal-technical thing, which I won't explain here, you can read about it at WP:FU. Basically, we can only claim fair use if we are using the images fairly according to the fair use laws, and 99% of the time a use outside the main article space is not legally fair.

If you want to keep them as links (adding a colon at the front), that's fine. And you only have to not display the ones labelled fair use, all others are fine to have on user pages. --bainer (talk) 22:13, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zero 7

Hello. I have removed the copyvio text from your comment on Talk:Zero 7 and have responded to it. Please let me know if there are any problems (or simply post on that talk page!) Thanks. --Nick Catalano (Talk) 00:27, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ran (film)

I couldn't help but notice (Edit Wars, grrr...) that you resumed doing some revamp work on the Ran page. I'm getting another page ready for a Featured Article nomination (Battle of Badr) but afterwards I was going to turn my attention back to Ran, now that I have the Criterion Edition and Stephen Prince's "The Warrior's Camera". Let me know if you're interested in collaborating. (This probably wouldn't be for another week or so) Palm_Dogg 11:00, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

• As you may guess from my User page, I tend to primarily edit entertainment articles that I'm interested in. Ran is in my watchlist, as I'd added the DVD cover pic back in August, not long after I'd bought and watched the film. However, I've only seen it once (too many DVDs to watch) and the recent revamping was done in repsonse to seeing the {{peerreview}} template, and the to assist with the systematic removal of unnecessary date links (try doing a whatlinkshere to a date article!). As such, I don't know how much help I'd be, but I'll certainly keep an eye on proceedings and provide some input if I can. Gram 11:20, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] re: Black Star

As long as they don't double-redirect, it's ussually not much of a problem. But if you want to bypass the redirects, that is of course a worthwhile task. --FuriousFreddy 22:19, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I've nominated the old Black Star redirects for deletion: Wikipedia:Redirects for deletion#February 8. Please comment there if you don't think the redirects should be deleted (after a small history merge from Black Star(Music)). Mike Dillon 01:07, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] East Asian Cinema

I notaced that the old eastern cinema article has been narrowed down into East Asian cinema - but isnt this a kinda unfair exclusion? Most people would consider India to be part of the east asian cultural block, especially given the closeness of South East Asian culture and film to Indian. Indian film, especially non-Bollywood industries, which produce regional language and art cinema, clearly support this view. The west asian cinema and culture starts with Iran - India should be included, or else, where exactly would you classify Indian cinema when it quite obiously isnt western? I strongly reccomend either including India in the east asian cinema article, or changing the entire thing back to eastern cinema - because the move seems to be one purely directed at excluding India, rather than one aimed at raising awareness. I would be glad to write that section if you wish. Vastu 05:23, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

My intention was to write an article which drew together the film industries of China, Hong Kong, Japan and South Korea, these being my area of interest, and the countries with the largest film industries in what I would know (possibly due to an Anglo-centric view) as "Eastern cinema" or "Far Eastern cinema" or "Oriental cinema". It was pointed out to me that Eastern cinema is a bit of a vague title, and to be geographically accurate, East Asia is a more appropriate term. I have since learned a little about the film industries of neighbouring countries (which would still fall geographically into East Asia), so I created the article and template to be inclusive of these areas.

I understand your gripe - what I meant by "Eastern cinema" is more correctly expressed and understood using the term "East Asian cinema". The move was not done to exclude anywhere, but to clarify my original intention.

I disagee that India should be included within this article, because I don't believe it is geographically accurate to do so. I would suggest that it is absolutely appropriate to have an "Indian cinema" article (actually Cinema of India already exists) and if you so wish, a relevant regional cinema article. Looking at the articles for East Asia and South Asia, it is clear that India falls into the latter, not the former, so your regional article would be South Asian cinema and should therefore contain summary info about the cinema of:

• Bangladesh
• Bhutan
• India
• Maldives
• Nepal
• Pakistan
• Sri Lanka

and perhaps more...

Were a South Asian cinema article to exist, you could adopt the same template format I did (I originally copied it from European cinema). I would be more than happy to include references to a South Asian cinema article within this article.

Gram 14:23, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

My point is perhaps a very tenuous one - but basically, what im trying to say is the geographical boundry is purely a man-made construct - for example, Thailand, a heavily Indicised culture, is part of South East Asia - thus it is both East Asian and South Asian in terms of culture and geography - yet nobody would consider defining Thailand in the same catagory as South Asia - an article on South Asian cinema would not include Thailand, Indonesia, or another South-East Asian country, yet your article on East Asian cinema does include those countries. The East Asian name of the article is perhaps well defined - but isnt informative, because of this exclusionary paradox - my point is that it is eaither better to define eastern cinema in different terms (I would actually call it eastern cinema or oriental cienma and include South Asia), or be even more strict in the East Asian definition by removing countries of South-East Asia. India is not a middle eastern country, yet is doomed to be thought of as one, despite the fact that South-East Asia bears more cultural commonality with India than with East Asia, because modern racial profiling, to put it bluntly, classifys India on the basis of the superficial appearance of Indians - non "Mongoloid" as some old anthropologists would put it. Yet what is a human? We are made of our minds not our bodies - thus when classifying Eastern cinema, should India not be amongst its other Eastern peers? A counter argument might be that Indian cinema is stylistically different - yet no more stylistically different than Thai cinema from Japanese cinema. I should point out that above your compared the wiki article on East Asia and South Asia - well those very articles illustrate the problem, since the East Asian one infact dosent include Thai and Malay lands.. Vastu 19:27, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, when I started this article I asked for assistance in several places, and little was forthcoming, so I carried on in my own vein (albeit with an admittedly limited geographical knowledge). As mentioned, the key film industries in my intended focus were those of China, Hong Kong, Japan and South Korea, as films from these countries are becoming significantly more successful in the West. I was able to add Taiwan as it too had a cinema article. I couldn't find any Cinema of Mongolia, Cinema of Vietnam or Cinema of Macau articles.

Some of the info I garnered was from the Far East article, an article, which in its opening sentence says "an inexact term often used for East Asia and Southeast Asia combined". As this article was initially called Eastern cinema I felt this to be the relevant starting point, but since moving the article "East Asian cinema" to be more geographically accurate, I've perhaps been remiss in leaving in countries that are technically in Southeast Asia - Singapore, Thailand and Malaysia (someone else added Philippines).

So the solution I would propose is to be, as you say, more strict with the definition. To remain as geographically accurate as possible we should split this article into "East Asian cinema" and "Southeast Asian cinema". I stand by my assertion that "Cinema of India" belongs in a "South Asian cinema" article. And again, there is nothing wrong with these articles referencing one another.

Geographical boundaries may well be man-made, but they are also universally recognisable. If anyone was willing to do the work, I would argue that a continental "parent" article be written too, entitled "Asian cinema", which could draw together East Asian cinema, Southeast Asian cinema, South Asian cinema and beyond.

And one final point - I created an article entitled Asian cinema purely as a redirect to this article. I concede that this is inaccurate, but did so because in my experience, Americans say Asian when they mean East Asian (wheras Brits are more likely to say Oriental). Similarly, Brits often say Asian when they mean South Asian. If proper articles for Asian cinema, South Asian cinema and Southeast Asian cinema were written, this issue would be resolved and the articles would have more educational value.

Gram 23:28, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Right, I've gone ahead and created a basic Southeast Asian cinema article and template, and have split the East Asian cinema article and template as appropriate. I had a little trouble with the templates, which hopefully someone will assist with (think I may have created them twice). I've also stopped the Asian cinema article from being a redirect to East Asian cinema, making a very basic stub. I've made reference in each of these 3 articles to South Asian cinema Gram 00:22, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

That seems to be the best solution then - thanks for changing it - I will check the new articles out later, and try to help with their content if I can. Vastu 06:53, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

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[edit] Image:Rae&Christian promophoto.jpg

Thanks for uploading Image:Rae&Christian promophoto.jpg. I notice the 'image' page specifies that the image is being used under fair use, but its use in Wikipedia articles fails our first fair use criterion in that it illustrates a subject for which a freely licensed image could reasonably be found or created. If you believe this image is not replaceable, please:

1. Go to the image description page and edit it to add {{Replaceable fair use disputed}}
2. On the image discussion page, write the reason why this image is not replaceable at all.

If you have uploaded other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified how these images fully satisfy our fair use criteria. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on this link. Note that any fair use images which are replaceable by free-licensed alternatives will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. -- Chowbok 18:22, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

• Rae & Christian image - Replaceable Fair Use Disputed. I tried extensively to find an equivalent free image of the group, without success. It was especially difficult due to the demise of the record label they were signed to (Grand Central Records) and the associated official website from where this promotional image was taken. Furthermore, the artists depicted are very unlikely to work together again, so no new images will be produced. The image file is also very small and of low resolution. The image is used solely as an informative representation of the group in an article descriptive of them. Gram 14:59, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More replaceable fair use images

• Image:RobSmith promophoto.jpg
  • Rob Smith image - Replaceable Fair Use Disputed. I tried extensively to find an equivalent free image of the artist but without success, especially due to the demise of the record label he was signed to (Grand Central Records) and the associated official website from where this promotional image was taken. It was reduced in size for the purposes of uploading to Wikipedia. The image is used solely as an informative representation of the artist in an article descriptive of them. Gram 14:49, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Image:Robbie Elliot.jpg
• Image:RootsManuva PromoPhoto.jpg
• Image:RosamundKwan promophoto.jpg
  • Rosamund Kwan image - I have uploaded a second image, a screenshot from one of the films she appeared in. If the promotional photo must be removed, then this screenshot will suffice as the article's main image until a better image can be sourced. Gram 14:49, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
• Image:SiaFurler promophoto.jpg
• Image:TheHerbaliser promophoto.jpg
• Image:ThePharcyde promophoto.jpg
• Image:ThieveryCorporation promophoto.jpg
• Image:TommyGuerrero.jpg
• Image:UglyDuckling MugShots.jpg
• Image:UpBustleAndOut promophoto.jpg
• Image:WoodHarris Promophoto.jpg
• Image:YuenBiao promophoto.jpg
• Image:DominicWest promophoto.jpg
• Image:Alejandro González Iñárritu.jpg
• Image:Zero 7 promophoto.jpg
• Image:Zhang Ziyi promophoto.jpg

—Chowbok ☠ 00:13, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of images: reponse

With all of these images, I'd argue that they are "promotional photos", produced for the purpose of promoting the person or persons. They are being reused here with the sole intention of illustrating the person or persons described in the articles. It is entirely non-commercial useage and the images are of reduced size and quality. In my opinion, the presence of an image vastly improves the quality of an article - pages of text are hardly user friendly, and an image quickly gives a sense of the person, makes the article more readable and real.

Whilst I would agree with ackowledging copyright-holders (if that were your policy), I think it is generally a very difficult task to locate free images, or at least free images of vaguely decent quality, and even harder to get copyright-holders to make the images free; and of course, I am in no position to take such images myself (who is?). Furthermore, what are we supposed to do with the more obscure artists, whose images do not litter the internet? Presumably nothing - we must just leave these articles image-less, or try and argue the toss without really knowing how to do so, in a "fair use replaceable disupted" thing. And may I add, a crappy low quality blurred camera phone photo that someone takes themselves, in the dark at a concert whilst drunk, is no substitute for a decent quality image where you can actually tell who it is in the photgraph.

One annoyance I find in using Wikipedia is that in general there is so much talk, so many pages of crap, instructions all over the place, that it can be hard to find the things that would actually help users. For example, if we cannot use promotional images like these, which are relatively easy to come by, users don't just need you guys to come along and remove images - we need some kind of advice on how to get hold of free images in the first place, how we can approach copyright-holders (if that is what your asking us to do), and indeed whether I'm doing the right thing by responding to these fair-use-replaceable notifications in the way that I am, or not. It would be marvellous to have this advice up front as we join, and easily retrievable whilst we're members - rather than only finding out how to do stuff when someone in the know has put something on a talk page, and you follow the links to other links to other links, until finally you find some hidden information, or even, a bunch of people arguing over policies.

From what I've found from searching Wikipedia is that there doesn't seem to be true consensus on the issue of promotional pics, but if it actually is the site's policy to remove these images, then there is little I can do, and I apologise if I uploaded something that I shouldn't. I'm not being precious about any particluar images - my only intention in becoming a user of this site (and I'm sure the intention of countless others) is to improve the articles on this site, particularly those I know something about or have an interest in. This is about as close to altruism as you'll get on the internet. So you'll understand, I don't want to waste my time here - doing things only for them to be undone, searching endlessly for help when it should be right there, badgering copyright-holders when they have no desire to relinquish their copyrights.

I have put notices on the talk pages of the articles for which you intend to remove images, appealling for help from other users to provide replacement pics, or to dispute the removal of the existing ones. I doubt anyone will repsond to these appeals, and the images will end up being removed. But ultimately, you should realise that someone else will upload other promotional images to these articles - maybe even the same damn ones - and the whole palaver will start again. I don't envy you guys for the task you've undertaken, and feel like you're probably trying to close the stable door after the horse has bolted, somewhat. Until I hear it's all been sorted out and you have a simple image policy with consensus agreement, and your users are well informed and given assistance where required (cos 99% of the people who use this site don't know what is and what isn't fair use before they join), the only images I'll uploaded will be album covers and DVD covers, which, if I understand correctly, are still pretty safe (do correct me if I'm wrong). Gram 17:27, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

These are reasonable points, but I would argue that you are understating the value we place on redistribution—which is why the GFDL is enshrined in Wikipedia's five pillars—and overstating the difficulty in getting freely-licensed photos. We're so big at this point that we can insist on cooperation from publicists and generally get it; if we say Actor X must give us a GFDL photo or his #2 or #3 Google hit has no photo, Actor X's people will license that photo 19 times out of 20. But this will only work if we really crack down on all the fair use shots. And while yes, there are plenty of blurry concert cellphone photos out there, there are also some pretty good amateur photographers providing good stuff under the CC license: see [1] or [2], for example.

I agree that more needs to be done regarding new user education about issue images, and I can understand frustration of people who upload images in good faith only to have them removed. I'm just another editor, though—I'm not an admin nor do I have any special influence here.—Chowbok ☠ 01:40, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, sorry, but I disagree with your assertion that we can "insist" on getting freely licensed images from publicists. Maybe the site as an entity has the gravity to be so insistent and get results, but as a user of a site, amending articles out of nothing more than personal interest and goodwill, I don't believe I have any power to say "you must give us a pic for free". In my attempts so far this has met with zero response (with one exception - images of an album cover and the associated record company's logo). If you're confident the site has sufficient power, perhaps Wikipedia could mass-issue formal requests (or demands) for images? These could be sent to the people who work as publicists for a number of clients, or to record companies with a number of artists on their roster, requesting an image for each of their artists? Alternatively, do you have an official letter that has yielded proven results, in the appropriate formal language, complete with a Wikipedia logo? If we could use something like that we may have some chance. I don't think I can write something myself that would compare with an official site request. Gram 16:35, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Take a look at Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission and Wikipedia:Example requests for permission. —Chowbok ☠ 01:32, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Welcome to the Films WikiProject!

[edit] WP:FILMS Newsletter

The November 2006 issue of the Films WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. Cbrown1023 23:13, 30 November 2006 (UTC)