Talk:Grade (education)

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[edit] More grades than described in article

Do the following grades also exist? And from wich country do they come?

  • 1st class (First Class)
  • 1st class honour (First Class honour)
  • 2nd class
Yes - they're part of the traditional scheme of British undergraduate degree classification. Tom Harris 10:54, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Romanian grades

In Romania, the first to fourth grades use a Very Good/Good/Sufficient/Insufficient system, Insufficient being the failing grade.

Wow that's a lot of percentage per grade. In th uk its more like

>80%     A*
70-80%   A
60-70%   B
50-60%   C
40-50%   D
30-40%   E
<30%     F

Are you sure your grade boundaries are correct ? Theresa knott 08:44 17 Jun 2003 (UTC)

In California where I went to school in the 1960's, anything under 60% was an F. Grade inflation may have changed it since then. -- DesertSteve 04:52 18 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Wow! I wanna go to the uk! ilyanep 00:10 18 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Of course to properly compare, you'd need to look at the difficulty of the exam papers. Theresa knott 08:24 18 Jun 2003 (UTC)

It seem from my research (and also the information provided on the full article) that A is 80+, B is 70-79, etc. I have therefore taken the liberty of changing it as such. This practice seems to be the norm in most secondary/elementary schools in Canada and the US that I know of. If anyone has anything to the contrary, please share it. --Joshua Boniface 01:37, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Discussion from Wikipedia:Featured article candidates, removed prematurely since it was obvious it would not go through:

Seems complete. [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality (hopefully!)]] 01:12, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)

  • Oppose - To me the page seems to be mostly lists and American-centric to some extent. In New Zealand we now use a system called NCEA which doesn't even have grades but 'Not Achieved', 'Achieved', 'Merit' and 'Excellence'. Before that there there three different systems for each of the last three years of high school. --enceladus 01:17, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)
  • Oppose — I agree that the main body of the article is very America-centric. Also it doesn't discuss _why_ grades are used instead of qualitative assessments. It doesn't mention that some school systems do not use grades, especially not for early classes (in Sweden grades are used only in grade 8 and above). It doesn't talk about grading systems where students are graded relative to their _classmates_ only (i.e. systems where the statement that "in this procedure, one student's grade is independent of his or her classmates'. Thus it would be possible, for example, for everyone in the class to get an A." is incorrect. Furthermore, it doesn't include a historical perspective. Nor does it talk about any asian or african school systems. Finally, it doesn't have any references. — David Remahl 01:40, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Object: 1) Highly US-centric, other countries are barely given a passing mention. This is horribly POV. 2) Doesn't go into much detail, making this mostly a list. 3) No references :( 4) Every school is different (to say nothing of different district) on how they Grade, the article doesn't mention this. 5) No picture. D+: Neutrality please see me! --Zerbey 02:38, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Object I have reordered the article by country. American POV is less visible now, but the article describes less then 20% of world's countries. Still, all objections mentioned by others are valid and need to be adressed. This article need A LOT of work. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 11:57, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Object. 1) Nothing on the pass/merit/distinction grading system. 2) Some grading systems can have an "E" grade, which is not mentioned in this article. Norman Rogers 13:20, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Oppose, with nothing to add except that the lead section is also inadequate. Filiocht 15:49, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)
  • Oppose, agreeing with all points made above and adding that only one out of three links in the Related topics section is acceptable as such, namely Education by country. The other two are Dumbing down, a POV stub that doesn't address the subject of grades or education, and Grade inflation, yet another contribution to Ameripedia. This vote is turning into a shambles, isn't it time the article was taken off FAC?--[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen (Talk)]] 17:43, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I don't know how accurate the information on UK grades is. In my entire educational experience i've never encountered a 'G' grade that represented failure. This is possibly an old grade, or one used only in certain areas. If i remember correctly, when i took my A levels (3 years ago), the grades were A-E, then N, then U. Movint 16:57 29 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] number representation

As this is an article in en.wikipedia.org that is not primarily about number representation, the normal representation should be used. (I would expect fr.wikipedia.org to use the comma, of course.) AlbertCahalan 12:41, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Grammar

It is my contention that we should be citing these different grades in italics, not quotes, e.g., A+ (not "A+"). Furthermore as per wikkipedians own style manual, the pluralization of A+, C, 3, etc., should be A+'s, C's, 3's,, etc. I have begun making the necessary changes, but please any future editors please keep to this standard.

Theshibboleth

[edit] Inaccuracy in description of the German system

The description of the German system is largely inaccurate. I have contacts in the Universities of Heidelberg, Jenna, and Munich, who have pointed out to me the mistakes in the article. Here are my corrections:

In Germany, a 6-point grading scale is used, where:

  1. (excellent) is the best possible grade.
  2. (good) is the next-highest.
  3. (satisfactory) indicates "average" performance.
  4. (sufficient) is the lowest passing grade.
  5. (unsatisfactory) is the higher of two failing grades.
  6. (poor) is the lowest possible grade.

This scale is true enough that it does not warrant editing.

Five and six are both considered to be failing grades, though in earlier years students are not required to repeat classes with '5' grades if they perform well in other classes. Grades '1' to '5' can be suffixed with '+' and '-'. To calculate averages of suffixed grades, they are assigned fractioned values, where '1' is 1.0, '1-' is 1.3, '2+' is 1.7, '2' is 2.0, '2-' is 2.3 and so on. As a 1.0 average is considered perfect, there is no such thing as an '1+'.

This is largely untrue. The grades for 1 to 5 are NOT suffixed with + and -. I don't know if the writer obtained their information from a really outdated report, and I don't know if the inconsistency also exists in the "Education in Germany" article. However, here is what my fellows told me - fully numerical grades are given, NEVER with + or - suffixes. Instead, one may obtain a 1.3 grade, which signifies performance somewhat worse than 1(excellent). Also, even though 1.4, 1.5, 1.9 and so forth, grades may be achieved, it is preferred (but in no way restricted) to award grades of 1.3, 1.7, 2.3, 2.7, and so forth to students due to the ease with which they are converted to the american system. To the knowledge I was imparted in my correspondences, this system persists in German Gymnasiums as well. Of course, there would be no 0.9 grade - 1 is the absolute perfect, as stated.

As I attended a German Gymnasium I know for sure that grades for 1 to 5 are suffixed with +/- to indicate slight differentiations. Those grades are given for exams or miscellaneous proofs of knowlegde (such as active/passive participation in lessons) which together form the final grade. In school reports in "Stufe" 12 and 13 however those grades are transformed into a 15 point scale (15/14/13=1, 12/11/10=2, 9/8/7=3, 6/5/4=4, 3/2/1=5, 0=6).--erik

In school reports, only unmodified integer grades may be used; they are written in text form:

  1. sehr gut
  2. gut
  3. befriedigend
  4. ausreichend
  5. mangelhaft
  6. ungenügend

"In-between" grades such as '1-2', '2-3', '3-4' etc., which used to count as 1.5, 2.5 and so on, have largely been discontinued due to ambiguities when converting the averages back to integer values.

This scale is true only up to, and in, elementary school. The subsequent paragraph is incorrect, as stated above.

In the final classes of Gymnasiums the grades are converted to numbers ("points") in order to calculate the average for Abitur. In this case an '1+' exists (and counts as 15), '1' is 14, '1-' is 13, '2+' is 12, etc. up to '5-' is 1 and finally '6' is 0. Because 1+ exists in this system, "ultra-perfect" Abitur averages below 1.0 are possible. When the point system is used, 4 (5 points) is the lowest passing grade, and 4- (4 points) the highest failing grade.

As far as my knowledge goes (which means as far as the knowledge of my fellow Germans goes, which should be somewhat accurate, owing to the fact that they are university students themselves) the high school system is exactly the same as in University, as far as the grading scheme is concerned. I am currently unaware of the correspondence with the 15-0 scale.

For law students at German universities, a similar system is used that comprises one more grade that is inserted between 2 ("gut") and 3 "befriedigend," named "vollbefriedigend." This is due to the fact that the grades "gut" and "sehr gut" are extremely rare, so an additional grade was created below "gut" to increase differentiation. Every grade is converted into points very much like the Gymnasium system described above, starting at 18 points (excellent) down to 0 points (poor). 4 points is the highest passing grade.

I don't know if the law school grades are any different. I will find out soon.

In converting German grades to the A-F scale, a 1 = A, ... 4 = D scale is often used (with 5 and 6 both converted to Fs) but this conversion is nearly never accurate, since, for example, a grade of '2' is usually more difficult to obtain in Germany than a 'B' in the United States. (The average grade in Germany is normally supposed to be around or a bit above 3, whereas in the US average grades are often supposed to be between B- and B.)

This paragraph would be rendered slightly superfluous after the changes are made. I don't know where the author obtained his information that a grade of 2 is more difficult to achieve than a B in the States, but I would heartily disagree. The German tertiary education system is a lot more lax than its American counterpart, and a student may, with some effort(as opposed to with considerable effort) obtain said grade. That is not at all true for American universities - and top-tier, at the very least.

Well actually, it's not that superfluous. A typical average for a "Klausur" in the "gymnasiale Oberstufe" is about 3,0 (http://www.phil.uni-sb.de/~jakobs/paedpsych/noten/guetekriterien_von_noten.html). For instance in a German test the most common grades are 3's and 4's, 1's are given for less than 5%.On http://www.ashesi.org/ACADEMICS/COURSES/grading.html, an university site, they point out that a typical Grade Point Average circles around 3,0 (which is a straight B). So it is quite legitimate to claim that a B corresponds to a German 3.

Here is a link for suggested grade equivalents: http://www.wes.org/gradeconversionguide/germany.htm

Grades and definitions at a glance:

1 (sehr gut) = given if the achievement exceeds the requirements

2 (gut) = given if the achievement meets the requirements

3 (befriedigend) = given if the achievement meets the requirements in general

4 (ausreichend) = given if the achievement exhibits lacks but still meets the requirements in general

5 (mangelhaft) = given if the achievement does NOT meet the requirements but proofs a basic knowledge which legitimates to conclude that the insufficiencies can be "repaired" in a foreseeable time

6 (ungenügend) = given if the achievement does NOT meet the requirements and shows that the basic knowledge is so incomplete that the lack cannot be "repaired" in foreseeable time'--erik


Please let me know if your information is any different, or if you observe any disparities. If not, I will proceed to correct the article. Thank you all.

-ASL

  • The main problem about the description is that it doesn't distinguish between elementary school (no grading; then 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6), high school from year 5 to 10 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, normally with +-), high school from year 11 to 13 (points from 0 to 15, equiv. to 6 to 1+), and university (which I don't know about). The information about average calculation is nonsense for both elem. school and high school. ASL, there's no date under your message, so I don't know when (and if) you're gonna correct it. If you do, please take these considerations into account and split the section. -- Felix Wiemann 19:29, 20 December 2005 (UTC)


  • Concerning "+"/"-"-suffixes: They are used from class 3 to 13, but only in classes 12 and 13 they appear on the school report (German "Zeugnis"). In universities, marks are like 1.0,1.3,1.7, and so on. Here, a 1.0 is a 1, a 1.3 is a 1-, a 1.7 is a 2+ and so on. Infinit-E

[edit] Scotland

There is no such thing as a "uk" system - there is an english system (actually many different ones due to the different awarding bodies), the Scottish System - and what about that used in Eire? Not UK, I know - but I think some mention of the above system needs to be added.

By the way, in Scotland, grade boundaries fluctuate depending on the difficulty of the paper so that sometimes an A can be as low as 60 or 65% and sometimes as high as 90%. There are different systems for 5-14 (Graded A-F where F is the highest), Standard Grade (from 1-7 where 1 is the highest, and there are boundaries for 'Credit,' 'General,' and 'Foundation' grades), and Intermediates/Higher/Advanced Higher (A-D and F, where C is a pass and D is a marginal fail).

I don't have the confidence in my editing abilities to add this to the article myself, but if someone would like to help me (or simply add in the information stated above) then I'd be grateful.

[edit] About Russia

I can't remember our teachers saying "пятёрышник" or "еденишник" - guess that was many-many years ago. :-) By the way, "еденишник" is misspelled, the correct is "единишник".

It is far more often when teachers say "отличник" ("otli'chnick") and "двоечник" ("dvo'echnick"), respectively. "Otlichnick" comes from "otlichno", that means "perfect", and "dvoechnik" comes from "dva" - "2", in Russian. Because "1" is VERY rarely used, "edinichnik" is never said. Still, "piatiorichnik" can be used, but "otlichnik" is more often.

By the way, when you are given "1" for the lesson, it means that your work was awful, very-very bad. That is why this mark is usually put into work-book in larger size, than any other mark. Thus the teacher attracts pupil's parents' attention.

194.84.95.50 08:40, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 'Greek' grades

From my experience one fairly common system of grades is absent from this article. In UK universities, a piece of work are often graded as α, β or γ. In this system, α represents an excellent piece of work, β represents good or satisfactory work and γ represents poor work. Some people add +/- to these grades, and their use is generally informal. Has anyone else encountered this system? --Gareth Hughes 15:23, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

I thionk that's pretty much restricted to Oxford - certainly never encountered it at Durham or St. Andrews (my two most recent universities)

[edit] Belgian grade system

As far as I know in the Flemish region, the system is as follow:

Institutes of higher education: - rate of one course: 0-20, pass at 10. - rate of one year of studying, mostly 0-100 % or 0-1000 (pass at 50 %). - Grade after a year of studying (not the same in each institution): sufficient (>50%), with 'distinction' (50-65), with high distinction (65-75), with highest distinction (75-85).

Secondary/primary schools: Everything is rated at a scale from 0-100 %. Pass at 50 %.

[edit] Question on Converting from a 20-point system to a 4-point scale

For the sake of calculating grade point average, does a French high school student first convert her/his individual grades, one at a time, to an equivalent in the 4-point system, and afterwards calculate the mean of these to derive a the 4-point-scale GPA, or is it the other way around, i.e., do you get an average from the French-scale total, then convert that final solution to the US system. In other words, what is the sequence: does one map then calculate? Or calculate first then map?


I suppose some universities may request to see ALL the grades and the method of evaluation the HS used in its calculation. Depending on which of the two ways the GPA is calculated, especially with the slow-moving broad distribution of some "Letter" grades and student grade distribution, one gets different results.


If you know or can point me to a good site, would you please answer here or at my Talk?


Thank you very much.

DonL 08:18, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hong Kong Grades

In Hong Kong, there is no any standard score/mark range for a grade in a subject.

Some universities may often use grade on curve to indicate students score, some may use a stand score range, some may give a professor or lecturer to decide the score range for independent subject.

Besides, different university and departments may have different score range for a subject grade if score range is used to determinate a grade.

Therefore, I have removed the grade score range part and add the grade definition instead.

[edit] Lowest grade in Bulgaria

In the paragraph concerning grading in Bulgaria, I removed the text relating to this fictional "very poor" mark. In the Decree No. 3, issued on April 15, 2003, in effect since the beginning of the 2005/2006 academic year, it is written in Article 7, Paragraph 2, that:

Marks that can be written are: excellent 6, very good 5, good 4, satisfactory 3, and poor 2.

In this sense, I removed the incorrect text stating that "The grade 1 is very rare and given e.g. in cases of cheating during an exam." --webkid 14:50, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Grades in Latvia

Information about "i" and "ni" in this article is incorect - it isn't used in lower classes, but in upper classes in subjects like ethics and helth lessons that have no use of any grades at all. Here is more correct description of Latvian system ( [1] )

1.class - description of performance in all subjects 2. and 3.class - description in all subjects, except for latvian language, maths and native language (in minority schools) that are rated in 10 grade scale 4.class - descrition, except fot latvian, maths, native and nature lessons that are tated in 10 grade scale 5. to 12. class - 10 grades in all subjects except helth lessons, civil knowlege, ethics and christian lessons - "i" and "ni" appears

P.S. Why do you list Eastern and Central Europe as one even if grades are diffrent ?

[edit] Grades in Norway

The following is inaccurate, and thus deleted from the article:

Students are distributed along the scale in a bell curve fashion, implying that the average grade of any given group of students will be C (even in graduate programs where students are granted admission according to the results they achieved in their undergraduate degree).

The truth is that the government wishes grades to have an overall normal distribution, but this (should) only apply at a macro level and not for individual groups of students. If someone digs up some official document stating how it's supposed to be, then edit and reinsert the removed paragraph.

21:44, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

No, you were right to remove it, the Norwegian grading is not a "curve-based" system. From personal experience, I can say that at high level (master degree) courses, there number of As and Bs being awarded is much higher than the number of Ds and Es, which is natural because the students who get to these high level courses are among the better students. At the basic courses taken in the first semester however (e.g. introductory mathematics), the grades more resemble the bell shaped Gaussian distribution, although there is no ranking involved in making this happen. Rather the university went back through previous results and pre-set the grade threshholds so that about 10% will wind up in the A-zone and so on. At mathematics for instance, 92% is required for an A since about 10% of students have been able to achieve this result in the past. Sjakkalle (Check!) 14:30, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Australian GPA

Is the info current there for the calculation of an Australian tertiary GPA correct? I'm a medical school hopeful and from what I have read, they dont use a scheme involving distinction, credit, etc. I have been told that it works on the graded letter only (A,B,C, etc). The difference being that points are awarded for different percentages (7 for 80% or higher instead of 85% or higher). From my experiences from trying to calculate a GPA, I find it more difficult to comprehend then anything I've ever studied, someone should run a course on this!!! Anyway, my view of GPA mainly comes from here http://www.acer.edu.au/tests/university/gamsat/documents/GPA_Instructions.pdf

It varies in minor ways from university to university, and in some cases from faculty to faculty - the GPA scale given in the main text, referring to two pass levels and two fail levels, seems to relate closest to University of South Australia's policy [2], but most of it applies to other universities. This applies whether the HD level is 80pc or 85pc. (See here for instance - although this is now 4 years old.)
The GPA scale used by most universities typically runs like this:
    • High Distinction: 7
    • Distinction: 6
    • Credit: 5
    • Pass: 4
    • Conceded Pass: usually 3*
    • Fail: usually 0**
(*Only some unis use Conceded Passes, and may have more than one type - eg. Terminating/Restricted Passes, Supplementary Passes, and so on - but the grade points given are normally less than 4 because the grade is less than 50%.)
(**Most unis seem to use 0 for Fail, although some, like UniSA, could use 1 for instance.)
Still others use a "Course Weighted Average" or "Weighted Average Mark" which simply average out the actual marks given. Curtin and University of Wollongong seems to use this, for example.
Will probably look to add to this/edit the article at a later time, when I have the time to do it -Spiky Sharkie [ talk ] 04:20, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] French grade system

The french grading system is mentioned quite briefly. A reference to the similar system of Belgium exists, but Belgium is missing.

[edit] England, Wales and Northern Ireland

The grades given are correct. The comments following them are not. Firstly, the precentages vary widely between subjects, between examining boards and from year to year. As an example, a minimum GCSE grade G will be awarded for about 22% in English. In maths or science it could be lower. Secondly, the descriptions are not appropriate, other than for A* at GCSE which was added to the grade range "for outstanding performance". I believe that GCSE grade D was intended to be the grade achieved by an average 16 year old. Someone may be able to come up with some more reliable statistics, so I have not edited the information as yet.

I agree, and have removed the descriptions and percentages. Tom Harris 11:07, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

On a related point, the Advanced Level (A level) is not AKA General Certificate of Education (GCE). Its proper title is GCE Advanced level. There used to be a GCE Ordinary level, now replaced by the GCSE. I have edited the entry accordingly.

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