Talk:Goy

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This article was written by me in an attempt to be offensive to those with whom I was having edit wars, and nobody else. It is my response to their unfair treatment of Judaism. They had re-defined all the terms normally used to describe Judaism so that any Orthodox treatment of Judaism would not make sense. As such, I had to "invent" a new language in order to describe Judaism accurately. This language is not an invention. It is the actual language spoken in the community of which I am a part. While what I wrote could be taken as a parody, and as such would, IMPNSHO be extremely funny, it was at the same time deadly serious.

The message being conveyed by the three articles which I authored Goy, Yid, and Yinglish was aimed solely at those with whom I was in an edit war, and is unlikely to have been stood properly by any spectators. As such I will try to explain the message.

The Yinglish article was saying that the articles on Judaism on this web site were deliberately misrepresenting the true meanings of the words used to describe Judaism.

The Goy article was saying that the authors of the articles on Judaism were either themselves shekotzim (the plural of sheigetz), were the descendents of shekotzim, or the students of shekotzim.

The Yid article was saying that no matter how far off they were from Judaism, they were still considered Jews, and if they did some soul searching and recanted their views, would be accepted by all of Judaism. Ezra Wax


A Goy is Yinglish for a non-Jew.

The existense of any such language or dialect is questionable at best. In English, goy is simply a slang word used, often in a derogatory manner, to describe a non-Jew.

It probably derives from the Hebrew phrase Goyei Haarotzos (Nations of the various lands) found in Aleinu (a prayer).

Actually, that is incorrect. Goy is a Hebrew word for "nation" and is used in the Bible to describe Jews and non-Jews alike. In Yiddish, it came specifically to mean non-Jews, but since the supposed goyei haaratzos is a prayer that precedes Yiddish by 1500 years, the etymology is incorrect.
As the word Goy alone, simply means nation, there is no reason why it would be used to refer to non-Jews, I therefore reason that it must be a shortened form of nations of the world. Ezra Wax

A Goy is the opposite of a Yid (Jew).

Juxtaposing two types of people in the world: Jews and everyone else. That is the beginning of a racist discourse.
As this is the way it is used in the community of which I am a part, it is accurate. It is simply that being overly political correct to deny it. Ezra Wax

He is an average law-abiding middle to upper class non-Jew.

Baseless class distinction: middle to upper class non-Jews = neutral (average).

This can be contrasted to Sheigetz which usually refers to a low class non-Jew, who is coarse, uses foul language, takes drugs, and is dishonest,

Where as lower classes of non-Jews are "coarse, uses foul language, takes drugs, and is dishonest"
This is a deliberate misunderstanding of what was said. It says that the word only refers to somebody who is all of those things, and the wording was low class which is derogatory, not lower class which is neurtral and in which case his criticism would be valid. Ezra Wax

or to a Yid who has abandoned his Yiddishkeit (Jewish Religion).

Making Jews who do not behave according to Ezra's standards the equivalent of a sheigetz, i.e., "coarse, uses foul language, takes drugs, and is dishonest."
Yes, if they deliberately abandon Judaism. You got the message. Ezra Wax

The difference between a Yid and a Goy is that a Yid is Shoimer Toireh uMitzvos (Keeps the Torah and its Commandments).

The worst thing that a Yid can do is behave like a Goy and not keep the Torah.

The word "and" puzzles me. Does it mean "by not keeping the Torah" or is it some separate term. If the latter, then this reads "The worst thing that a Yid can do is behave like a Goy" and "The worst thing that a Yid can do is not keep the Torah." Both are clearly debatable since they are based on a particular POV. The first is also racist.
Behaving like a Goy means not keeping the Torah. The problem is that the Jews as a nation swore an oath at Mount Sinai to keep the Torah, so by not keeping it they are breaking their oath.
As I defined Yid as somebody who knows that he must keep the Torah, it is neutral. Somebody who does not know that he must keep the Torah would not be a Yid, he would be a Goy. So, yes this is insulting. It is calling somebody who does not keep the Torah either a Goy or a Sheigetz. Of course, any such Jew would be insulted, and that is the point. Ezra Wax
I'm curious, Ezra. Am I reading this correctly? If I were born ethnically Jewish, but did not believe in Judaism, then I would be guilty of breaking the oath at Mt. Sinai (which my ancestors had taken on my behalf)? Furthermore, I would then be a Goy, meaning someone who is not ethnically Jewish? Do you not differentiate between the race and religion? Or am I misintepreting you? Tokerboy 22:10 Nov 1, 2002 (UTC)

If he associates with Goyim unnecessarily, he may come to behave like them.

In other words, no mixing between Jews and non-Jews because it is detrimental to Jews. Is Wikipedia out to say that Jews should not mix with non-Jews? I will skip a few lines now to:
Once again, a deliberate misunderstanding. It says unnecessarily, and leaves that up to the judgement of the person doing the mixing. Ezra Wax

[...] there is nothing worse than a Yid acting like a Goy.

and:

He is much worse than a Goy who does the same, because a Goy is not required to keep the Torah.

implying that non-Jews are bad. In other words, this is just an emotional racist diatribe from a particular Jewish POV. That is why I deleted it and will keep doing so. Danny
He snipped out the preceding sentence in order to deliberately misrepresent what was said. It says that a Jew who believes that he should keep the Torah and does not, is not labeled a Goy because that is a neutral term, rather he is labeled a Sheigetz which is derogatory. Ezra Wax

As such, this article is neutral and accurate, although it is a resounding criticism of people like Danny and RK. It also provides information which on some level is understood by others. As such, it should remain as is. Ezra Wax

I see. So the main purpose of this article was an ad hominem attack against me, and that is neutral and accurate. Cool. (Oh, and a question for you, Ezra about your claim that I am descended from shkotzim: Being that I am a direct descendent of the Rama through the Shach, are you saying that they are shkotzim too? Curious sheigetz minds wanna know.) Danny (who is apparently a coarse, foul-speaking, dishonest user of drugs.

P.S. Yes, shiksa is derogatory. It is a Yiddish variant of a biblical Hebrew term meaning "disgusting." Danny the sheigetz (which comes from the same root)

I agree with Danny. Ezra Wax is filling this entry with racist attacks on non-Jewish people. He has repeatedly made clear that he has no intention of working with others in a scholarly attempt to write encycloapedia articles. Instead, this vandal is slandering all gentiles, and all Jews who are not Ultra-Orthodox like him. People who repeatedly engage in vandalism need to have their IP blocked. RK

I haven't taken a careful look at this, I confess I don't understand the depth of feeling behind the dispute. All I know is no one likes to be hated. There is an article entitled "Moonies" -- even though I dislike hearing my church called by that term -- but perhaps since the Sailor Moon fans have helped rehabilitate the term it doesn't sound so bad in my ears any more.

People still use words like goyim, yid, kike, nigger, whore, slut, fag, queer and so on. I don't think each term requires an article of its own, but perhaps there should be an article on disparaging terms people call one another (or terms of disparagement). --Ed Poor

Goy is certainly a xenophobic notion-but some Jews do use it and I for one would like to read what Jews think of Goys like me. So please don't delete this page-just make it NPOV by, "Jews say goys are pigs" Lir 19:29 Nov 1, 2002 (UTC)

--- I have deleted the content of the page:

A Goy is a term of disparagement used by some Jews for a non-Jew. It probably derives from the Hebrew phrase Goyei Haarotzos (Nations of the various lands) found in Aleinu (a prayer).
A Goy is the opposite of a Yid (Jew). He is an average law-abiding middle to upper class non-Jew.
This can be contrasted to Sheigetz which usually refers to a low class non-Jew, who is coarse, uses foul language, takes drugs, and is dishonest, or to a Yid who has abandoned his Yiddishkeit (Jewish Religion).
The difference between a Yid and a Goy is that a Yid is Shoimer Toireh uMitzvos (Keeps the Torah and its Commandments).
The worst thing that a Yid can do is behave like a Goy and not keep the Torah. If he associates with Goyim unnecessarily, he may come to behave like them. While it is not bad if a Goy doesn't keep the Torah, a Yid must keep the Torah, because the Yidden (Jews) were given the Torah by Hashem (God) on Har Sinai (Mount Sinai).
It is the responsibility of a Tati (father) to teach his kinderlach (children) how to behave like proper Yidden. If they do not behave like a Yid then he may scream at them, "Do you want to become a Goy?" Upon hearing such a cry, every Yiddish Kind (Jewish Child) knows that he is misbehaving and better shape up, because there is nothing worse than a Yid acting like a Goy.
A Yid who came from a Yiddishe Heim (Jewish home) and acts like a Goy by being a Mechalel Shabbos (violator of the laws of Shabbos) eating Treife (non-Kosher food) and ignoring the rest of the Mitzvos (Torah Laws) is a Sheigetz. He is much worse than a Goy who does the same, because a Goy is not required to keep the Torah.

Because:

1) it is utterly inaccurate

2) it is offensive. NOTE: it is not offensive because it is an encyclopedia article about an offensive word -- The article Nigger is out an offensive word, but is not itself (in my opinion) offensive. This text is not "about" hatespeech, it simply is hatespeech.

Lir, I have a high regard for most goyim (and I am sure I have a high regard of you!) Many goyim have their own path to God, and many goyim are righteous. There is just nothing wrong with "goyim" because you see the word "goy" is simply Hebrew for "nation." When Jews in their prayers refer to the Jewish nation they use the word "goy!"

The word "gentile" is derived from a literal translation of "goy" into Latin -- gens means people.

When you use the word "nation" in the singular, yyou usually refer to your own nation. If Bush gives a talk called "the state of the nation" we all know which nation he means. But when we use the word "nations" we know we are refering to others (e.g. United Nations). So when Jews use the word "goy" in the plural (goyim) they are refering to "other nations" meaning non-Jews.

Ed, please do not cut and past what I just wrote into the article -- it is just not worth an article. Slrubenstein

I'm getting a bit dizzy here. Didn't SLR or some other non-ultra-Orthodox buddy of mine just tell me that goy was a horrible thing to call someone? Or was the goy article itself bad? Or was the talk getting out of hand? Well, no time now. I have to go to an party now, sponsored mostly by Jews, for a non-Jewish co-worker. You guys can fight till I get back! ;-) --Ed Poor

Considering the amount of flak it's drawn, how 'bout we just change the title of the article to "Oy!" and leave it at that? ;P Stormwriter

"This article was written by me in an attempt to be offensive to those with whom I was having edit wars, and nobody else. ... The message being conveyed by the three articles which I authored Goy, Yid, and Yinglish was aimed solely at those with whom I was in an edit war, and is unlikely to have been stood properly by any spectators."

-- We do NOT write Wikipedia articles as personal messages. This is an encyclopedia, dammit.

I just attended a birthday party for a nice Italian (non-Jewish) lady. A shiksa? Goy? Goyimette? We joked about how thickly she was cutting the slices of cake, and she said, to much laughter, "I'm Italian, this is how we do it."

One of the Jewish ladies quipped, "So let a Jew cut it." We all laughed, even louder.

And with that I wish you all good shabbos! --Ed Poor

Isn't Shiksa mildly derogatory? -- Zoe

Yes, Zoe, I think you are right about this, but I would defer to Danny or RK. I think shiksa and sheigitz are yiddish, not Hebrew; I am certain that goy is hebrew for "nation" and has been used by Jews to describe themselves; I an less sure about shiksa and sheigitz but my understanding is that they have only been used pejoratively, although for some it might be more of a joke (it is sometimes hard to tell). By the way, I only now noticed what Ezra Wax wrote at the top of this page, explaining his motivation for this and some other articles -- and I think his explanation speaks for itself. But if anyone had any doubts about how stupid this article was, please read his explanation. Slrubenstein

All the above notwithstanding, and having been around Jews most of my life, I don't mind being called a gentile, but I don't think I care to be called a goy. They don't seem equivalent to me. Ortolan88

Look, I do not mean to offend you and am sorry if I have, and if you (and other gentiles) do not want to be called "goy" I'll respect that. My main point is that it is a regular Hebrew word and there are many cases where it is used (in texts) in clearly neutral ways. That the word "goyim" has come to take on a pejoritive connotation (or even denotation) is a reflection of the actual attitude many Jews have towards gentiles. Personally, I think these negative attitudes often have a good reason. But many times it is prejudice pure and simple -- which was the case with the way Ezra Wax was explaining the meaning of the word. My main objection was not to the claim that many Jews use the word "goyim" pejoratively, but that Ezra Wax wrote an article that was itself an expression of hate-speech. We need to be careful with these articles, and the current version (whether thanks to you, Zoe, or others) I think is far more careful, and I am glad. Slrubenstein

If a term is offensive, as this article states about shegetz and shiksa, then what amelioration is provided by adding the statement that people may not mean to be offensive when they use them. I repeat, I don't mind being called a gentile, but I really wonder what axe is being ground here. The latest additions remind me somewhat of the word nigra, the "polite" form. Ortolan88 23:32 Feb 24, 2003 (UTC)

Edited this, adding some material on the Jewish outlook on non-Jews as a whole. All is not bad. I'm not completely sure when goy changed its meaning from nation to member of a gentile nation. User:jfdwolff.

Contents

[edit] Pejorative sense

This discussion has gotten rather large and rambling, so I'll start again. It is a fact that the word "goy" can be used in a pejorative sense, at least in the past. If you don't believe me, then read Philip Roth's Portnoy's Complaint, where the word carrries an air of disgust. Also, in The Joys of Yiddish, Rosten notes that some Jews use the word in a pejorative sense (while noting, of course the traditional Jewish respect for the values of others in society), and that phrases such as Goyisher kop are less than complimentary. So it is somewhat disingenuous, and even offensive to say that perception of the word's connotation is due to anti-semitic propaganda. I will say though, that, IMO, pejorative does not necessarily mean offensive. As a gentile myself, I have no problem being called a goy. I regard it as a mild, almost affectionate pejorative term (much like the Australian word "pom"). RMoloney 10:04, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

You are right that "Goy" is sometimes used as an insult. As far as anti-semitic propaganda, such propaganda asserted that "Goy" is inherently pejorative, or is used entirely or mostly in the pejorative sense. My intention behind the previous formulation of the para was to indicate that "Goy" has no intrinsic negative meaning (though phrases such as "Goyisher kop" do). I'm sorry for any miscommunication; no offense was intended. In any case, I'm fine with your current formulation. HKT talk 06:43, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Ah, OK. It's the "intrinsic" part of the above I didn't quite pick up on from the previous wording of the article. No worries. If you've got any info about anti-semitic attempts to misrepresent the meaning of the word, it might be an interesting addition to the article? RMoloney 01:34, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Well, they always claim it is inherently pejorative, and frequently claim it means "cattle" - see, for example, [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]. However, the examples of this are mostly from not amazingly encyclopedic sources. Jayjg (talk) 07:34, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

With words of this sort the original intent is meaningless. Nigger originally was a mispronounciation of negro, the socially acceptable term for blacks for centuries. Does that original intent make it any less offensive? I don't know anyone who doesn't find "goy" or "goyim" intensely offensive. Much like "gringo", its a perjorative for outsiders used by insiders, and needs to be clarified as such. Sam Spade 12:11, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

I wrote above: "As far as anti-semitic propaganda, such propaganda asserted that "Goy" is inherently pejorative, or is used entirely or mostly in the pejorative sense." It's not merely original intent that is benign here. Of course, it can be used insultingly, just as non-Jew, Catholic, Irish, Black, Jewish, Italian, and Russian are used insultingly by those who don't like those groups. "Stupid Goy" is no different than "Stupid Frenchman" or "Stupid Australian," aside from "Goy"'s etymology. Unlike "nigger," "kike," etc., neither this word's historical meaning nor its current meaning is intrinsically, entirely, or primarly insulting.HKT talk 22:23, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
You say this based on your intimate understanding of Yiddish? Any term can be used pejoriatively. Jayjg (talk) 20:39, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

WTF? Do I need to know spanish to understand what "gringo" means? Sam Spade 20:59, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

It would help, since you're making claims about a Spanish word. In fact, it is not everywhere and always offensive. How do I know? I'm a Spanish teacher. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.238.88.44 (talk • contribs) .
Why don't you propose your major re-write here first, and cite your claims, Jack. Jayjg (talk) 21:16, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Goys are the people of Israel

"Goys" means "people". The Jews were the ruling class, like the "nobility" in Europe. The people of Israel are the Palestinians.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.64.166.191 (talk • contribs) .

[edit] Goy = Nigger

The world is divided between the chosen people and the rest of us "Niggers" and other non-Jews. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.64.166.191 (talk • contribs) .

No, it's not. Your have obviously misunderstood the concept of "chosenness". The Jews regard themselves as chosen to receive the Torah. That's all. JFW | T@lk 08:17, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

The Church of Scientology says the same thing about the religious documents of L Ron Hubbard, who prior to starting his own religion was a science fiction writer. --Nazrac 23:40, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] An External Link

I found an intersting blog called | Those Meshugeneh Goyim

So a Jew gets to ridicule Christians for a change instead of the other way round. Don't you love freedom of speech? JFW | T@lk 16:12, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, except when a website ridicules jews it elicits hysterial shrieking of anti-semitism and a nasty article about the website or its author appears on the Anti-Defamation League's website. Jfdwolff you are nothing but a racist biggoted anti-goyimite! You see how silly that sounds? --Nazrac 23:46, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Redirection of this article

I can only assume the direction of Goy to Gay was an act of vandalism. I've never heard of those two being linked, despite the similarity of the two words. If I'm wrong, feel free to undo my reversion. Opblaaskrokodil 03:58, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

That is a blatant act of anti-goyimism. Why does Wikipedia tolerate this sort of biggoted trash? I'm going to file a complaint with the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai Goy. /sarcasm --Nazrac 23:50, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] (Literal meaning of "goy" and anti-semitic hate groups)

I want to discuss the statement "Although anti-Semitic hate groups, usually inspired by quotations from the The Protocols of the Elders of Zion (Nos. 11 & 15) [1], repeatedly allege that the word inherently denigrates non-Jews and that its literal translation is "cattle". This is clearly personal opinion and is wrong. Essentially, this statement means that those who feel the term goy "inherently denigrates non-jews" must belong to an anti-semitic hate group. WRONG. It's the same as stating those who oppose US foreign policies are part of Al Quaida - an absolutely absurd statement. Also: How do you know what inspires anti-semitic hate groups in relation to the term goy? Unless it is a proven fact that ALL anti-semitic hate groups are inspired by Nos 11 and 15 of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion in relation to the definition of the term "goy" you should not make a claim like this in what is officially portrayed as an "unbiased" encyclopedia that takes a "neutral point of view". Stick to the facts, don't make unfounded and misleading claims, support your statements with scholarly references and state when you are making a personal opinion. If all posters did this then maybe wikipedia would be taken seriously by academics and those in the know.

(The above unsigned comment was posted by 60.240.63.229 [8] on 20:24, 29 March 2006).

[edit] Etymology

"Although claims are repeatedly made that (1) the word goy literally means "cattle" in Hebrew and (2) has consequently been appropriated to denigrate Gentiles because of these alleged etymological beginnings, no linguistic basis supports either of these assertions."

From where came this misenterpretation? Is it simply a myth, a hoax? What is the Hebrew word for "cattle"? etc...
--CAD6DEE2E8DAD95A (hello!) 11:17, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Corruption in English

Is this where we get 'Guy' from, which is a phrase seemingly emerging from New York? Also, regardless of what the word means in Hebrew, it has COME to be a derogatory term, just as PAKI (an acronym describing the regions of the nation) has now become in England. I think this discussion should accept it and not try and gloss over it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.77.118.33 (talk) 02:29, 9 December 2006 (UTC).

According to the wikipedia page on Guy Fawkes, we get the English word "guy" from that... uh... guy, i.e. "Guy Fawkes". Its at the bottom of the page at then end of the popular culture section. Michael.passman 09:46, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
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