Talk:Government Communications Headquarters
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[edit] Most successful etc
Removed: "It is the most successful and advanced listening station in the Western World." I don't see how this could ever be verified given that governments are generally less that enthusiastic in publicizing their intelligence capabilities. -- anon
- Quite, and the NSA are almost certainly more successful and advanced. — Matt Crypto 16:59, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
- I doubt it. I expect they are both as successful and advanced as they are required to be. As we are never allowed to see the output of GCHQ, despite been forced to fund it via taxes, we can never know whether it is successful or not.Markb 09:41, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Nickname
- Amongst insiders, the organisation is gaining the nickname "The Jam" (since it can be found inside a doughnut).
An anonymous contributor removed this, and I can't verify it; I've moved it here in case anyone can cite a source. — Matt 23:07, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Name change: GC&CS -> GCHQ
When did GC&CS change its name to GCHQ? I've come across different versions: some pinpoint it at around 1942, others say 1946. (I'll try and dig them up). — Matt Crypto 23:03, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
- I found a document in the PRO from 1942 which suggests using the "GCHQ" as a cover name for Bletchley Park, but it could well be that this was a covername for the BP site, while the entire organisation was still offically known as GC&CS (work was done elsewhere apart from BP) until 1946. — Matt Crypto 15:21, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
- Just found this reference, too in Michael Smith, Station X, Channel 4 Books, 1998, ISBN 0330419293: "In June 1946, GC&CS adopted its wartime covername Government Communications Headquarters" as its new title" (p. 176). — Matt Crypto 15:27, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] ?npov
Why on earth is 'fired' more npov than 'sacked'? As far as I know, 'fired' is the American word for 'sacked': both mean 'summarily dismissed'. Since this is a UK article, it ought to be 'sacked'. Myopic Bookworm 15:00, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
- That's what I thought, too. I agree that "sacked" is fine in a UK topic article. — Matt Crypto 17:02, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Potential sources to use
- Richard J. Aldrich, GCHQ and Siginit in the Early Cold War 1945-70, Intelligence & National Security, Volume 16, Number 1 / Spring 2001, 67 - 96
- Nigel West, GCHQ: the Secret Wireless War, 1900-86, London : Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1986.
— Matt Crypto 11:24, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- Jock Kane, http://ftvdb.bfi.org.uk/sift/title/106622
[edit] GC&CS and SIS
ISTR in reading Stewart Menzies biography C, that GC&CS was part of SIS after it was moved to the FCO from Admiralty. This remained the case until after WWII when it had got to a sufficient size that it could operate independently of SIS and split out. As a result of this Menzies had close control of the ULTRA intercept material generated from Bletchley. I haven't got access to the book at the moment but can anyone corroborate this from another source?ALR 16:44, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
- I cannot corroborate, but rather contradict: it was not part of SIS, though it reported to the head of the Secret Service. GC&CS by 1922 transferred to the Foreign Office, under the Chief of the Secret Service, to which service however, it did not belong. John Johnson, "The Evolution of British Sigint 1653-1939" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Myopic Bookworm (talk • contribs) 20:50, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the first part:
- "Menzies redesignated himself Director-General and promoted Travis to overall Director of GC&CS...these arrangements prevailed until the end of the Second World War. After the war, GCHQ managed to escape from the control of "C" and disengage itself from the even more fraught management problems of MI6." (Philip H. J. Davies, "From Amateurs to Professionals: GC&CS and Institution-building in SIGINT", pp. 386-402 in Action this Day edited by Ralph Erskine and Michael Smith, 2001)
- Other than its head and a shared location for a time, GC&CS was separate to SIS: "GC&CS...formed initially in the Admiralty, but by 1922 transferred to the Foreign Office, under the Chief of the Secret Service, to which service, however, it did not belong...apart from the co-location and the common head there appears to have been no other connection, administratively or operationally, between the two organisations". (p. 43-44 in John Johnson, The Evolution of British Sigint: 1653–1939, 1997) (as noted by Myopic Bookworm above; we had an edit conflict).
I don't know how much influence and control this gave Menzies over ULTRA, or whether he used this influence to improve the standing of SIS in the government (as our Stewart Menzies article states, but doesn't cite specific sources for). — Matt Crypto 20:55, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
- OK, so the two had the same head and they were co-located? GC&CS formed in the Admiralty and SIS originated as the Naval Section? Call me a bluff old traditionalist but that looks remarkably like they were the same organisation. although I note that both those sources are later than the Biog which as I recall is mid to late 80s.
- In practical terms I can fully understand why the work of HUMINTers and SIGINTers wouldn't be integrated, they are different disciplines and whilst one does tend to cue the other the actual practice differs significantly.
- According to the Biography Menzies controlled the access list for the ULTRA compartment and it's international release.
- ALR 16:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- I've just found this very pertinent official SIS web page; it describes the relationship between GCCS & GCHQ with SIS. It says that:
- "By 1926 SIS and GC&CS shared Broadway Buildings (54 Broadway, St James's), performing distinct activities and occupying different floors. In his GC&CS role, Sinclair took the title 'Director of GC&CS'. Denniston and his deputy Edward Travis reported to him. Although Sinclair was not involved in the day-to-day operations of code-breaking and construction, he or other senior SIS staff represented GC&CS over matters such as foreign relations and inter-departmental arrangements for radio and cable interception. Senior promotions, financial questions and internal organisation within GC&CS were approved by him. In July 1938 Sinclair purchased Bletchley Park in Buckinghamshire as a wartime evacuation location for both his organisations. Both moved there in August 1939."
- — Matt Crypto 17:41, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- I've just found this very pertinent official SIS web page; it describes the relationship between GCCS & GCHQ with SIS. It says that:
