Talk:Gothic metal

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Notice: Leyasu is banned from editing this article for a period of indefinite.
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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Gothic metal article.

Contents

[edit] Archives

For previous discussion, please see:

[edit] Fields of the Nephilim

I was wondering if it would be appropriate to include Fields of the Nephilim in the origins alongside Valor era Christian Death. They used a metal influence. You can refer to the wikipedia article about their sound and influences, as well as sites such as allmusic. --Fred138 01:54, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of bands should be in another article.

As many other genres i feel list of bands belongs to another article. I copied the contents from the main article to List of goth metal bands.

As mentioned before, its a list of Gothic Metal AND Gothic-Doom bands. The genre is also called GOTHIC Metal, not GOTH Metal. Rename the article appropriatly, and then the article list shall be included. At current, it undermines almost all of the article. Leyasu 14:28, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Both names 'Goth Metal' and 'Gothic Metal' are used in Gothic metal article refering to the same genre. I renamed the mentioned article to List of gothic metal and gothic-doom metal bands even though this name seems too clumsy to me. D0c 11:20, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Also read the Common Misconceptions part of the article on the negative use of the term 'Goth Metal'. Yes, it is a clumsy article to do a list of bands for. Yes, the name of the list is clumsy. But it wasnt my idea to list both articles into one. However, i have been handing out Wikipedia's name more regularly now, and people who have gotten back to me have said, not having to go through 100 different articles to find something is a lot more helpfull. So maybe keeping the band list on the article is helpfull as example bands, with a comphrensive, detailed list in another article? Leyasu 12:15, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Just put {{:List of gothic metal and gothic-doom metal bands}} in the main Gothic metal article under the header for the list. That will copy and paste the contents of List of gothic metal and gothic-doom metal bands into the article. (Though to edit the list, you'd have to go to List of gothic metal and gothic-doom metal bands. You can't edit the list directly from Gothic metal if you do it this way.) --Idont Havaname 04:48, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

I disagree with that Idont. It makes it harder to keep track of the articles, and for editing by others it makes it a nightmare to follow all the articles. Personally i still think having 5-10 bands on a seperate list for both Gothic-Doom and Gothic Metal, and then a comphrensive list of each in seperate articles is the best way to go about it. Leyasu 04:55, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

That's not a good way to do it either, though. It's generally not good to pick a few items out of a list, and if you do, you might run into POV problems (or at best, you'll just be mentioning bands that the rest of the article discussed.) If the list is short, it can stay in the article. But this one seems to be long enough to justify its own article, so it would be best to keep it on a separate page. --Idont Havaname 05:45, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

The only ptoblem is, a lot of people want things there for quick reference. I suggest waiting for more people to comment before any action is taken by either of us. Leyasu 06:15, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] I like these bands

sorry if i piss anyone off by editing this, but i want these bands added to the "gothic metal bands" list. i'm also sorry if i've repeated any that are currently there, i'm just reading these of my ipod because its basically a massive collection of gothic bands, i've never edited on here before.

After Forever, Epica, The Gathering, Graveworm, HIM, Lacuna Coil, Leaves' Eyes, Liv Kristine, Midnattsol, Moonspell, Nightwish, Sirenia, Season's End, Switchblade Symphony, The Sins Of Thy Beloved, The 69 Eyes, Theatre Of Tragedy, Tristania, Within Temptation, Xandria,

these are all gothic metal bands

Non of the above bands are Gothic Metal except Tristania.
Your IPod is a bunch of random bands you like, most of which have nothing to do with Gothic Metal. Non of these bands will be added to the list because they are not Gothic Metal. Please read the article and understand what Gothic Metal is before trying to claim unrelated bands as being part of the genre. Ley Shade 13:51, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No Concensus Reached, So Tags Shall Remain.

I have placed 3 fitting tags on the top of the article, due to the reason that reverting the article back to the original will just cause Leyasu to wage another revert war; Looking at the above notes, there was absolutely no concensus reached that Leyasu's Temp page was suitable enough to be submitted as an article; he/she basically said they would be doing it, "everyone is on my side" (who is "everyone"? It seems everyone was criticizing his/her edits) and that was that. Still several factual errors in the article, as what had already been discussed. Danteferno 15:05, 15 January 2005 (UTC)

Consenus was reached and more than one editor has reverted your tags. The argument was also abandoned by the the disagreeing half after ample warning was given to the posting of the revision unless further discussion was to be held. Further attempts at blatant vandalism, MPOV, and disrupting Wikipedia to prove a point will be pointed out to admins, who can then decide the best course of action. Leyasu 16:18, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
The above is from a user (Leyasu) who has been blocked by Wikipedia admins for personal attacks and 3RR, a user who has been pointed out by Wikipedians as using sockpuppets, a user who continuously provides no source/references for their edits, and is now denying that any of this took place. Recently, a wikipedia admin (Sn0wflake) abandoned trying to work with Leyasu for his/her continued personal vendettas and campaigns (See Leyasu's discussion board for proof on all the above.). Very confusing, but not surprising, sadly. Danteferno 18:18, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
User who made accusation of Sock Puppets = Danteinferno.
Admin (Sn0wflake) quit an argument between several users, one of which was myself, and quit the argument from participating due to all users. The article in question being Grunge.
Another user also banned for 3RR was part of the argument on the Grunge article.
Dante has also broken the 3RR on this article against edits i made.
It should be taken into account, that Dante was also named for MPOV on several articles.
Another point is that Dante was also told by more than myself, that his edits are wrong, and more than one user has reverted his edits. Dante also claims vandalism on any edit that isnt his own.
I will now inform Admins about this users behaviour. Leyasu 16:59, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Please report me for my "behavior", Leyasu. One admin already told you that calling another Wikipedian "meglomaniacal" is namecalling and a personal attack (advised by Sn0wflake in your dispute with LGagnon, something you were blocked for, and then you threatened to report admin Sn0wflake for not siding with you.) Your presence here has been nothing but counterproductive, and there is still no evidence that the "majority is in agreement" with you in turning the Temp page (which has various errors, mentioned above) into the main article. No, everytime you're asked a question for your sources and claims, it's "harassment" against you. --- Danteferno 00:15, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
The only user who has harrassed me openly is Danteinferno and i have made no such claims against any other users. I also never threatened to report the admin who blocked me, i asked him to explain where i made a personal attack, which in kind, he did.
This again is slander and personal attacks, claiming now im being counterproductive on Wikipedia and making bad faith edits. Again, personal attacks.
Also, a consensus being reached is evidence enough. As well as the Gothic Metal scene and the bands involved within depicting the genre as such. One persons defination and that of misconception with sources critcially disclaimed by many, including the scene, doesnt make a good source. Leyasu 02:49, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
You could say a concensus was reached as much as you want - it didn't happen.Your "friend" parasti(who also seems to be joining you in your 3RR violations on other articles) is not the main voice of Wikipedia, and neither or you. So where's that Wikipedia admin you were talking about? I think their judgment on whether a concensus was reached (and whether the tags should stay) is confirmation enough. I also think it would be good to let them know of your current 3RR violations of other articles (with other users), that the same thing happening there is happening here - and it's not a "Danteferno" problem. Danteferno 04:41, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Please see my "official" reply on Danteferno's talk page. That is all there is to it, basically. And for the time being check out WP:NPA. Cheers. -- parasti 00:42, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
No, that's not all there is to it. Per your discussion page, you just registered with Wikipedia on December 18, so unless you have an existing username on here, you have not been here long enough to read up on the Wikipedia process. Danteferno 04:31, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Would you mind explaining how does the time I have spent as a registered user on Wikipedia matter in this discussion? Here's a hint: it doesn't. Also what makes you think I have "joined" User:Leyasu in his "3RR violations on other articles", as I do not seem to recall such actions, moreover, I would surely notice if I had been blocked for 24 hours? If you bother to answer, please make sure you provide links to the exact 3RR-violating edits from my contribution history, otherwise it is to be considered a personal attack. Do not expect to be taken seriously if you cannot reasonably argue in a discussion.
Now, all else aside, I ask, what do you consider to be incorrect in the article and what are your suggestions for improving it aside from "this article needs a complete rewrite". If you cannot give a reasonable answer, then please stop vandalising the article, as your actions will then eventually be reported as such. -- parasti (talk) 22:39, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
To be brief: 1.) The article states symphonic metal was derived from gothic metal. This is untrue, and the original version of symphonic metal (before Leyasu changed it) reflects that as well. 2.) The article begins by stating that the genre started in Europe; this is also untrue; and later on, the article contradicts itself when stating that American bands from the 1980s played a part in its beginnings. Type O Negative's first album was from 1993, a few years before many well-known gothic metal bands in Europe would release their albums, and TON were also an influence for European bands. Leyasu thinks that they are "gothic doom" and belong in a separate category, but users that include myself, Idont havaname and Sn0wflake (see Leyasu's talk page) told him/her that gothic metal and gothic doom are essentially the same thing, regardless of TON'S "genre" 3.) The article reads like someone's personal opinion, is very unclear in the way things are described (no examples for claims on the way gothic metal "sounds"), and doesn't seem to be in encylopedic reading format. 4.) Moonspell are not from Scandinavia (see "Beginnings") 5.) Various Gothic Metal bands that were removed from the list by Leyasu, including Lake of Tears, Charon and TiamaT, simply because he/she does not want them there. Your two cents?--Danteferno 23:25, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
  1. I know nothing of symphonic metal, but anyway is it even necessary to mention the origins of symphonic metal here when it has its own article? To avoid confusion at least. The "original version" was a mere 3 paragraph definition stating that symphonic metal is not a real genre, hence with no reference to its origins.
  2. The Gathering released Always... in 1992, several songs from which were written and released in 1990. It's often called atmospheric death / doom metal with keyboards and Beauty and the Beast vocals, but then again that's what is commonly referred to as gothic metal.
  3. No comment on this one, feel free to improve it.
  4. It does not imply Moonspell are a Scandinavian band; it makes sense if you leave out the part where Scandinavia is mentioned. The way it is said could be improved though, see #3.
  5. As said on the Lake of Tears article, they have a "wide range of different styles", so it seems to be more of a The Gathering case: you could name albums, but not the whole band as being gothic metal. As for my personal opinion, their sound on the album I have heard is very much similar to that of Crematory, which is in turn similar to that of early HIM (they came later though, so it's the other way around); often clean male vocals, minimal use of keyboards, simple but agressive drum beat, complex solos and verse-chorus-verse-bridge-chorus structure. While it is metal, it is definitely not gothic. No opinion on other bands, as I have not listened to them. -- parasti (talk) 22:35, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
  1. The revised version of the article states: "A softer genre known as symphonic metal had evolved in the mid- to late- 1990s from gothic metal bearing strong similarities to its predecessor"' - this is completely untrue - symphonic metal did not evolve from gothic metal, symphonic metal is simply a style used by power metal and black metal bands that use symphonic elements. Perhaps there are gothic metal bands that use symphonic elements, but it did not "evolve" from gothic metal.
Not what the Symphonic Metal article states, which was revised with consensus. And not what a lot of sources say, which can be found in the archives, which Danteinferno provided themself.
  1. The Gathering's first album was from 1992, correct, however they did not break out as a "gothic metal" band until later. The same could be said for TiamaT, who began as death metal and entered the gothic metal sort years later as well. Bottom line, TON came before both. (I was mistaken at first - Type O Negative's first release was from 1991; "Slow Deep and Hard".)
Type O Negative however, is not a Gothic Metal band. And no matter how much Danteinferno blows the whistles for them, the Gothic Metal community, and most of their fans, recognise them for their work in both the Doom Metal and Gothic-Doom scenes. Also, claiming a band is Gothic Metal because you like them, doesnt make them Gothic Metal when they are not musically Gothic Metal.
  1. If I improve/reword it, Leyasu will revert it back and call it "Bad faith edit/Vandalism". See the Children of Bodom or Cradle of Filth revision history to see what I mean.
Both articles have suffered heavy vandalism, with sections behing removed and replaced with random characters or insults towards the bands. Last i checked, this is vandalism. Also, i myself will not revert an edit or call it Vandalism, unless it explicitly states something that isnt true, or relevant to the subject matter.
  1. There was a great section in the original version that reflected how many death metal and black metal bands from the Scandinavian region became "gothic metal". It is erroneous to include Moonspell as they are from Portugal. It would make more sense to include the bands used before (which were removed for no reason.)
Removed for not being Gothic Metal. Bands from X place changed genre to Gothic Metal. Y Band from X Place changed their Genre to Pop. List Y band from X Place as changing their genre to Gothic Metal. Something says that isnt very enceylcopedic, or accurate, to me.
  1. In agreement with Lake of Tears, however, being that Gothic metal bands progress, and use a lot of experimentation, it is sometimes hard to even judge the most comfortable bands in the genre, because they, too, will experiment. LoT's genre-labeling varies, however reputable websites for heavy metal (such as Allmusic.com and Metal Archives) have labeled LoT as Gothic Metal. Charon and TiamaT are unarguably Gothic metal bands. It should also be noted that many bands listed in the article or the band list have no Wiki-page and are probably too obscure for mentioning as "notable". --Danteferno 23:40, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Most of the bands listed are better known in the Gothic Metal scene and genre than either Tiamat, Charon or Lake of Tears. Also, bands often try to claim they are something they are not. Atreyum My Chemical Romance and Evanescence have all laid claim to being Gothic Metal, when they obviously are not. One band claiming they are Gothic Metal, doesnt mean they are Gothic Metal. Also, i ask Danteinferno for how these bands are Gothic Metal, other than is 'becasue i said so' argument.


1) Symphonic Metal as a genre originated from Gothic Metal. Thats as a genre. General consensus from most of the metal community reflects this. I listed over 20 sources saying this, all of which Danteinferno claimed were 'disallowed' because they didnt agree with him, even though half of them you provided by himself.
2) The genre did indeed start in Europe, and is mostly a European scene. The genre has some fans in America, but is not as intensely followed by any means as it is in Europe. Also, Type O Negative share nothing in common with Gothic Metal, apart from the Synthesise of influences in their guitarworks, which is also the same as what Gothic-Doom does. They are also highly regarded around the world as Gothic-Doom or just plain Doom-Metal with Gothic Rock influence. Irony i believe, when they are supposed to be Gothic Metal, while lacking most traits of the genre, or affiliation with it.
3) The article is better than the one Danteinferno claimed was 'his' that i had 'no right to edit'. I also, fail to see how it reads POV. If it reads POV, an explanation on how it reads POV, not just rash claim of 'This reads POV so post my POV because i said so'. Arguments such as that dont work. I was also considering RFA for the article, to see how it can be improved, much like the Nightwish article was done.
4) Im not a specialist in Geography, if there is a minor Geographical error in the argument, a minor edit from anyone can fix it. A minor mistake requirring a minor edit isnt justification to rewrite the whole article.
5) Well, according to Lake of Tears, Charon and TiamaT's articles, the bands arent Gothic Metal. Lake of Tears, could be considered Gothic-Doom on one album. On that note, that album is widely considered Folk Metal, due to its heavy folk themes, and lack of Gothic Metal and Gothic Rock elements. Tiamat, you explain how they are Gothic Metal, because making 'because i said so' arguments isnt going to work either. And Charon is hardly Gothic Metal, has no affiliation with the Gothic Metal scene, and is generally not accepted as Gothic Metal by anyone par a very small portion of the bands fans.
Taking this into account i listed some extra things to note.
6) Danteinferno abandoned this argument when he was proved wrong. The user Idonthavename left the argument, after helping in the revision of the article. Snowflake also told Dante he was wrong on a number of occasions, as can be seen in the archives, if checked.
7) Danteinferno has tried to discredit me with personal attacks of various forms and styles. This has included blatant insults in the form of such classics as 'you are an idiot'/'you are a moron', to such discredit the argument by descrediting the person as 'everyone hates you'/'you make no good edits'/'you dont know anything'. Its childlike and pathetic, it really is.
8) If the article was fine in the first place in the form Dante claimed was 'his' that i dont have 'any right to edit', then it wouldnt of needed revising. As such, it was revised, with consenus (Which i might add Dante called everyone who disagreed with him a sockpuppet). If this article was in need of a complete rewrite, then why would it of already been rewritten? Also, isnt it ironic when the person claiming it needs a rewrite, is the person who claimed ownership of rewritten article? Doesnt that some what come across as meglomanical point of view and bad faith editing?
Im going to put in a RFC, because, this is not going to get anywhere, its a circular argument thats practically unworthy of archival space. IM listing in for RFC, and if personal attacks are continued against me, i will inform the Abbirition Committe, as i have given example, and warning as to how Danteinferno is making them. Its a shame that Dante seems to feel he has to harass me and make personal attacks in this way, but that isnt the spirit of Wikipedia, and it doesnt warrent place here. Perhaps if Dante would prefer to use a Wikipedia with no rules, he should go to Anarchapedia. Leyasu 04:07, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Every single thing you wrote above is wrong - you haven't provided any sources to your edits - per your talk page, you REMOVED citations from other articles (and other users noted you on this). Being that each thing you say about me (or anything who disagrees with you) is a personal attack and harrassment, it seems ironic and hypocritical that you're accusing me (and others) of personal attacks and harrassment - you're baiting for such, that's for sure. It was Leyasu who got banned for personal attacks. Again, anyone can look above (and the archives) and see that everyone who participated in the discussion with Leyasu asked him/her many times to provide sources for his/her edits, in which Leyasu either refused, or simply posted website URLs that didn't have any information supporting his/her argument. It comes as no surprise that the admins Leyasu came to for help in this did not answer. If I was an admin, I would probably be hesitant as well. The only reason I'm staying is because the public should not be stuck with the flawed article that Leyasu submitted with absolutely no precedent. Danteferno 05:37, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Three editors (Myself, Parasti and TureMetalFan) have no all told user Danteinferno he is wrong. The claim of providing no sources for the revision, which were provided in the discussion of the revision previously, which most of the sources provided where originally sourced by user Danteinferno, is a tom-fool claim.
In the claim i removed citiations from other Articles, this was during a conflicting view on the Nightwish article on formatting. The citations, in fact, were left, however i had removed the in sentence links to them. The users involved, including me discussed this in a perfectly civilised manner, and it was explained to me that in sentence Links are considered helpfull and good for RFA, despite their formatting uglyness. I didnt contest this and the issue was laid to rest. Nothing bad there i think.
The claims that i am making personal attacks against Danteinferno, and that im harrasing him are somewhat null, when the user has periodically gone around reverting edits of mine on articles, used open inflamatory language and manner, including direct insults, and has openly claimed the original articles as his, claimed people are conspiring against him, and also has an obvious personal vendetta against me. Thus, an Admin or Meditation Committe member would be best to decide who is indeed, making the personal insults.
I was banned for making a personal attack, which at the time i didnt realise was a personal attack. Apologies were made after this, due to my intepretation of personal attacks being somewhat different to others. The issue was resolved somewhat instanteneously, with the Admin explaining how what i said could of been considered a personal attack.
Many times i was asked to provide sources, and after some time, i did. Over half of the sources i gave, had already been given by the user Danteinferno, who was the only user against the revision to what he claimed was 'his' article. The only time sources of mine were discredited, were by Danteinferno, because of such reasons as 'They arent well known enough', and 'Forums dont count'. Not reasons to discount sources by Wikipedia's policys, i do so believe.
I also posted to Admins, following my own inetitive that perhaps if they mediated this argument, it wouldnt become so derogatory. As such i got no replies, so instead i went to the Mediation Committe. We are currently awaiting mediation from them.
Danteinferno in this statement, 'The only reason I'm staying is because the public should not be stuck with the flawed article that Leyasu submitted with absolutely no precedent.' seems to make his intentions clear. The user seems somewhat bothered that the article was revised. I now ask this question, if the article was flawed, and the information in the original was correct, why was consensus reached that a revision should be done? And why has consensus been reached again by mostly different users, that the changes Dante is proposing are wrong? I think these questions answer themselfs.


Thats nonsense, as Parasti has been here long enough to learn the Wikipedia Policys, by reading them. Now your making personal attacks against other users, which completely degrades your claim. You blatantly have no intrest in making this article better, and are content to simply vabdalise it, as it seems. Leyasu 16:23, 16 January 2006 (UTC)


Danteferno the problem with the list of bands is that half the bands on the list have a female singer. Meaning that half those bands are Gothic Metal? I don't think so. One band for exmpale can no longer be called Gothic Metal that band is After Forever. There first CD my be Gothic Metal but they moved very far away from that after the first CD. Epica can be listed as a Gothic Metal band either they are adding in more then one kind of music. Nightwish is a Symphonic Metal and Power Metal band or just Symphonic power Metal/ Just because a band has a female lead singer dose not make them Gothic Metal that's way a lot of those bands should not be listed as such. Turemetalfan Jan 17, 2006

Leyasu compiled/arranged that list, not me. ---Danteferno 00:42 January 18, 2006 (UTC)

Turemetalfan is talking about the list on 'your' original article. Leyasu 03:19, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Wrong, he's obviously referring to the current article, which is your revision. (And the original article was not "my" article) ---Danteferno 03:50 January 18, 2006 (UTC)


Um no Danteferno Leyasu is right I was talking about the original article. There were bands listed there that were not really Gothic Metal at all. The way the bands are listed know is just fine. Though I still feel that some are not really part of the Gothic Metal that is just my opinon. Turemetalfan Jan 18, 2006 9:43 AM

I didn't compile a majority of those bands on the original article, so whoever did, you will need to bring it up with them. Please be sure to address the appropriate parties when you have a dispute. If you feel there are bands on the current page that aren't really Gothic Metal you will need to bring that up to Leyasu. Thanks, Danteferno 03:50 January 18, 2006 (UTC)

[edit] While we're on the subject of personal attacks, POV, unsourced claims, harassment, et al.

Please see this page on who's consistently doing such (and cited examples)

Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-01-16 Deathrock & Deathrock fashion

I will do my best to disregard Leyasu from now on.

For all else concerned in the matter, I am currently in the process of overhauling the gothic metal page with cited examples from reputable sources, and this should be the most comprehensive and neutral of any web reference on the subgenre. It should be done by next week. If anyone wants to see a current draft, let me know. Best, Danteferno 15:50 January 18, 2006 (UTC)

Consensus was reached that the article doesnt need changing, any change to the article with information that isnt accurate will be reverted, and the vandal will be reported to the abbirition commitee. Leyasu 19:25, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Are you adequateenough to edit Wikipedia? - A lurker that's too lazy to get an account, 3 March 2006

[edit] RfC - Request for Comment

Hello, I thought I'd come in and take a look. Could someone please summarize in 1 or 2 sentences, what the issue is? Thanks. Elonka 03:54, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

This link pretty much summons it up. As well as the Gothic Metal statement on this link. Leyasu 04:40, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I read the dispute. It's clear that there are disagreements between a few people about the content of the page, but I had trouble figuring out just which content... Could you clarify a particular change that is in dispute? For example, should the page say "a" or "b" or "c", etc. Thanks. Elonka 06:49, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
To summerise it, in the A/B/C format.
  • Version A) The original article.
  • Version B) The revised article.
  • Version C) Dante's proposed revision.
Version A was revised due to the content being incorrect and infactual about the genre of music and scene it was about. After a heavily long discussion on the talk page, which is in the archives, a consensus was reached in that a revision would take place, which several users supervised and contributed to on the since deleted temp page, and as such version B was posted at the conclusion. During this time, Danteferno was the only person who argued against the consensus, on the basis that he 'owned' the article and that he was the person who made the decisions on what was fact, based on bands he did and did not like. All of this can be seen in the archives.
Version B has since been posted for around a month now, and has recieved a much higher number of hits than the previous article. Comments have also been made about its comphrensiveness, and whenever it has found an issue with someone misunderstaning, or another article mentioning it, myself or another editor has contributed to the article to explain this. Such incidents being the problem withe term 'Faggoth', the splitting of the list of bands, and album links.
Danteferno now proposes after a lengthy absence that the article is wrong, and that only a version that he claims as 'his' was ever right. He proposes 'he' rewrites the article, to be the same as Version A. I asked Dante why we should do this, as did Parasti, and we were hurled with abuse, personal attacks, and harrasment, forcing requests for Mediation and Abbirattion. Consensus as such was reached in that Version B, although not RFA material, is actually accurate and fair, and shows what the genre and scene is. Danteferno however still proposes the version C and demanded another consensus, hence the RFC.
My question is, if version A was correct, then why has consensus been reached twice that version B should remain. And if version C is going to repeat version A, which was determined twice by conesnus as wrong, would there be any reason to post version C?
I await comments from other users on this matter, as i myself, am at a loss, and also tired of getting nothing constructive from Danteferno, hence the case of Abbirittion and Mediation. Perhaps another user will get more sense and reason from discussion with him. Leyasu 07:03, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
The problem with the matter is that Leyasu made a revised page adding unsourced claims and info; the original had proper citations for most vital info, but to Leyasu the information and citation was "POV". He never fully explained this, and now the article is completely misleading.
Danteferno still says this despite consensus being reached twice that the current version is the factually accurate one, and that Version A needed rewriting.
To be brief (but not going over everything)
1. The article states symphonic metal was derived from gothic metal. This is untrue, and the original version of symphonic metal (before Leyasu changed it) reflects that as well.
Consensus was also reached on changing the Symphonic Metal article, using the sources Dante provided to support his argument.
2. The article begins by stating that the genre started in Europe; this is also untrue; and later on, the article contradicts itself when stating that American bands from the 1980s played a part in its beginnings. Type O Negative's first album was from 1991, a few years before many well-known gothic metal bands in Europe would release their albums, and TON were also an influence for European bands. Leyasu thinks that they are "gothic doom" and belong in a separate category, but users that include myself, Idont havaname and Sn0wflake (see Leyasu's talk page) told him/her that gothic metal and gothic doom are essentially the same thing, regardless of TON'S "genre".
This is because the genre did start in Europe. Dante, also has expressed clear regard that he doesnt care about a bands music, they are the genre they wish them to be. (See archives). Also, many genre articles mention the influences that came before the genre, that doesnt mean the genre started then.
3.The article reads like someone's personal opinion, is very unclear in the way things are described (no examples for claims on the way gothic metal "sounds"), and doesn't seem to be in encylopedic reading format.
Consensus was reached twice that this was untrue, with Dante being the only person who claims this.
4. Moonspell are not from Scandinavia (see "Beginnings")
This was copied from the original revision that Dante claimed was his. As i and user Parasti said earlier, a minor error can be fixed with a minor edit, and doesnt justify a whole rewrite. Would you rewrite a whole FA due to a spelling mistake?.
5. Various Gothic Metal bands that were removed from the list by Leyasu, including Lake of Tears, Charon and TiamaT, simply because he/she does not want them there.
This is also untrue, when the only one of these bands music im not fond of is Tiamat. This is a personal attack and by Wikipedia's rules, is unacceptable.
Leyasu has been doing this with other Wikipedia articles, and has been treating other Wikipedia editors with similar disrespect, and one just needs to read his talk page to see that these same problems are going on elsewhere. IMHO, Leyasu has seldom (if never) been "constructive", and there was never concensus on this discussion - users on his talk page hinted him of that as well. Danteferno 10:07 18 January 19 (UTC)
At one point, the Cradle of Filth article was deleted by an anymonous user and replaced with 'Cradle are fags!!!', which i reverted as Vandalism. Dante has claimed that me reverting such edits are me vandalising the page, when in fact im the one, who amongst other users, has reverted these forms of edits. Also, if my talk page is checked, most all of the users who have come into contact with me, of only ever differed over methods of editing, such as how to merge a page, or the way to format it. Minor issues almost all editors come into discussion about at some point.
This is a prime example of untrue personal attacks, and fits well with Dante's earlier claim during the second consensus that 'nobody on Wikipedia likes me'. As since, i am indeed involved in dispute over two more articles, Alternative Metal and Metal music with the perfectly good editor WesleyDodds/Aj Ramierz, with our conflict simply a differing view of how to go about things, and i dont remember us at any point flaming each other or making personal attacks, as Dante has done with me. Again, i wait for comments from other users, bearing in mind twice conesnsus has been reached against Dante's revision. And that Abbirrition and Mediation both had to be requested against him. Leyasu 17:15, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for the information. My recommendation at this point is to pick one single page change that is in dispute, such as "Did the genre start in Europe", and to discuss each one individually, being sure to cite sources. For example, when on this page someone says that "consensus was reached", it would be wise to link to the page and section that proves this. I have to admit that I'm also having some difficulty telling which paragraph here is by which person, so I would recommend keeping replies short (no more than one paragraph) and being careful to sign each one with four tildes: ~~~~. Elonka 18:04, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
First, Elonka, I would like to extend sincere thanks for your intervention in this discussion! :)
Starting with "Did the genre start in Europe?", here is one source that talks of Goth(ic) Metal's history:
http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=77:11955
This summary reflects that the genre started in both Europe and the U.S. almost simultaneously (but further back connections in the U.S.). In addition, it confirms Type O Negative as being a gothic metal band (not "gothic doom", or whatever) and that they belong in the gothic metal category, which was a topic of further discussion, because they were segregated in the article as being "gothic-doom" as if there was a difference (there isn't, and this had been discussed a bunch of times here.) Since the history is already discussed in the article (the article just contradicts itself at the beginning) I await feedback from others.---Danteferno 18:04, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Here is some sources that say what i have said:
Also, if Gothic-Doom and Gothic Metal were the same, you wouldnt have pages such as this one that list a difference. Nor would the bands work in two independent scenes, with the two fan bases and music scenes being independent of each other. Leyasu 19:05, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
I am still trying to drill down to one of the core disagreements here. Is it correct to state that everyone agrees that "Type O Negative" is one of the originators of a goth genre of music, but that there is dispute on whether their style was "Gothic Metal" or "Gothic Doom"? Elonka 19:48, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
As a 3rd party to this dispute, with no personal axe to grind, I'd like to add a few words here. I would say that the problem is that Leyasu seems to be insisting that gothic metal and gothic doom are two totally distinct genres, which is clearly taxonomically unsound given the presence of the term 'gothic' in both names and the fact that 'doom' is a subset of 'metal'. The only reason that people say "gothic doom" instead of "gothic doom metal" is brevity. The only sensible conclusion is that "gothic doom" is the overlap between "gothic metal" and "doom metal", and that there is a continuum along this axis. For example, reviews on The Metal Observer classify Katatonia as [doom metal], [gothic metal], and [gothic doom metal]. Bands such as Katatonia, Anathema, Paradise Lost, My Dying Bride, Draconian, and Type O Negative cross all these boundaries, making clear delineation both difficult and irrelevant. As far as reputable sources go, [Terrorizer Magazine] had no problem in classifying Type O Negative as 'gothic metal' in its review of 90s music. (Feb 2000 issue.) It also cited The Gathering, Anathema, Paradise Lost, My Dying Bride, and Katatonia. (It also went on to cite Paradise Lost, Anathema, and My Dying Bride again in the doom section. Typically the print press, which listens to a wider range of bands than the fans, will happily acknowledge that a band is part of more than one subgenre.)
A major problem you'll get in categorising this is that while 'metal' is easy to define, 'gothic is not. Is it 'gothic' as in meaning "influenced by gothic bands" (eg. Paradise Lost, Katatonia, Charon, Poisonblack, Type O Negative), is it gothic meaning "appears to have 'goths' in it" (eg. Marilyn Manson, Evanescence), or is it gothic meaning "has female vocals and keyboards" (eg. Within Temptation, Nightwish, After Forever). The 1st meaning tends to be the one taken by the specialist press such as Terrorizer, the 2nd meaning tends to be taken by the less well-informed or the mainstream, and the 3rd meaning is just a common usage that has probably come by association, since most bands in that category started out influenced by the ones in the 1st category.
I would argue that it is surely unimportant to make arbitrary segregations: doom metal, gothic metal, gothic doom metal, symphonic metal, and doom-death metal all overlap, in much the same way that purple, mauve, violet, and lilac all have different degrees of red and blue in them. All these bands should be listed, and the confusion and overlap in terminology should be stated. Kylotan 14:35, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
I tried to sum up the whole thing beliew in the Comment For Revision part. You pretty much repeated it lol. The scenes have different fans, and do overlap, thus is true. Perhaps you would care to read my Comment for Revision and tell me what you think of it, in case it might be vague or what not, as i realise my explaining of things sometimes leaves something to be desired. Leyasu 19:46, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
Mainly I just disagree with your characterization of 'gothic metal' and 'gothic doom' as being independent. I think the scene is a lot more unified than you think, largely owing to the fact that most of the early key players in the scene (eg. Type O, Paradise Lost, Katatonia, The Gathering) have got songs and albums that have varying degrees of doom in them (from lots to none). Additionally, it's also well known that bands such as Lacuna Coil and The Gathering were heavily influenced by Paradise Lost, who in turn were influenced by goth bands such as the Sisters of Mercy and other metal bands like Celtic Frost. Professional journalists do not try to drive a dividing line down the middle of these bands and neither should we. Instead of trying too hard to pigeonhole bands and exclude them from 'gothic metal' for being 'doom' or for not having 'beauty and the beast' vocals, it would be much more beneficial to explain that it is a wide genre with tendencies towards female or duet vocals and many influences from the doom metal scene, and have an inclusive definition, while noting some disagreements and inconsistencies. Kylotan 15:44, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm in complete agreement with Kylotan. Weeks of grueling searches on the internet (or anywhere) have shown no evidence of a separate "gothic doom scene" or that "gothic doom" is even a separate genre to begin with - it's the same thing as gothic metal, as mentioned here and elsewhere multiple times.
If you have time, Kylotan, I would appreciate feedback on a proposed Rewrite that's in the works. It could be found here[1]
Thanks! --Danteferno 19:37, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Sources have already been provided, which Dante has ignored. Please look below for the explanation of the different scenes, and their sources, that make up this unit. Leyasu 23:50, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Disagree as you will, but the genre is scene specific, and the different scenes do not interlock at all, and grow more independently recognised by the day. I will work with a hroup of editors to make a better article as long as their intrest is in making a better article, not pushing their POV. As such, i already explained the different scenes that all fall under the collective banner of Gothic Metal, and as such this explains your view, and also maintains factual accuracy. Leyasu 18:58, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Being that both links Leyasu provided, above, reflected Type O Negative as being either a goth/gothic metal band, I, too, am confused as to where the disagreement lies. Below, he says they have nothing to do with goth/gothic metal, yet he provided 2 pages that confirms they are. Also, there's no mention on either page that gothic metal began in Europe - The second link describes "it's true home" being in Europe, which can be agreeable to the extent that there is a bigger "scene" there, but that doesn't mean it originated there. Also nothing on either link that says anything about "gothic doom" or who/what is gothic doom. Danteferno 22:52, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

From link 1 Concerning Gothic-Doom and Type O:

  • The style has proven to be slightly less popular Stateside, though the New York quartet Type O Negative have proven to be particularly successful at combining gothic texture with a slow, Black Sabbath inspired metallic crawl, topping it off with a dark sense of humour that is other absent from this particularly austere subgenre. This derivative of the sound (which could be referred to as 'gothic doom') has a number of practioners (such as The Sins of Thy Beloved and Poisonblack), mainly in based in Europe (especially Scandinavia).

From link 1 conerning origins:

  • A slightly awkward term, thanks mainly for the tendency for gothic rock acts to distance themselves from the term 'heavy metal' and all the tedious stigma that comes with it. Gothic metal is thus generally thought to arise from doom and death metal bands incorporating keyboard textures, female vocals, classical orchestrations or folk elements into their overall sound. Gothic metal songs typically adopt a 'metal' structure, but usually bear some form of melodic element, though it varies as to whether this comes from a guitar, keyboard or some other instrument. Keyboards are also often utilised for their atmospheric rather than melodic potential.

From link 2 conerning Type O and Gothic-Doom:

  • Goth Metal - Goth metal bands derive from earlier goth rock bands such as Sisters Of Mercy, with Type O Negative one of the most well-known such bands. For some reason the Finns have taken to this style, with most of the bands in the goth category hailing from that country.

From link 2 concerning Gothic Metal:

  • Gothic metal bands tend to write songs with a slightly more orchestral feel to them. Often the vocal style of such bands is a dead giveaway, with either choirs or the so-called "beauty and the beast" style (a male, death-like vocalist paired with a more angelic female voice) often employed. The vast majority of bands who feature a female lead vocalist (excepting the rare female extreme metal vocalists such as Angela Gossow of Arch Enemy and Karyn Crisis of Crisis) are usually considered gothic metal bands. Theatre Of Tragedy, in their early years, was a prime example of this style (though they have transformed into quite a different style now), with bands such as Tristania and The Gathering also releasing prototypical gothic metal albums at least at some point in their careers.

Please make claims that are accurate in future. Leyasu 23:36, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Type O Negative didnt originate anything to do with the Gothic Metal scene, because they are not part of it. They did heavily help contribute to part of the Gothic-Doom scene, but they are not part of the Gothic Metal scene.
The Gothic-Doom scene and the Gothic Metal scene are somewhat independent of each other. The Gothic-Doom scene is a somewhat mish mash of fans from the Gothic Metal, Doom Metal and Gothic Rock scenes, that support bands that play a combination of these three forms of music, Type O being one of them. The fans of this tend to intergrate themselfs into the three scenes, whilst not being a core part of any of them.
Gothic Metal has evolved and grown its scene completely independently, growing more in on itself in contrast to expanding its reach. Its a very specific genre, and its scene is very self centered, and disliking of the Goth Metal name often given to Gothic-Doom bands, due to the confusion it creates between itself and the Gothic-Doom scene.
Musically, the differences are explained in the article. Which clearly shows the difference between the two forms, Gothic Metal and Gothic-Doom being quite different from each other. Musical Fact says this. You wouldnt say Hip Hop and R&B are the same thing due to them having the same origins. Nor would you for any of the forms of metal.
On the subject of TON, they may have influenced some bands. However, the progenitors of the Gothic Metal genre have claimed no influence from them, and the only bands that have claimed influence from them has been the Gothic-Doom scene. As such, with the fact that the two scenes are seperate, and work mostly independently of each other apart from conjunctions in the music industry, there is no reason, or musical reasoning, behind any claim that Type O Negative are Gothic Metal, let alone them creating it. Leyasu 20:19, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Thank you Leyasu. Could you please also list some sources for this viewpoint? Not fansites, but actual books or articles which say this? I also recommend reading the Wikipedia guide on original research, to assist you when you cite sources. Thanks. Elonka 20:42, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
There isnt really any on the scene that havent been produced by people in the Gothic-Doom or Gothic Metal scenes. This is what i mean about the scene being so in on itself, it cuts of most media connection as well. Its true that Gothic-Doom is often seen as Goth Metal, and is a lot more popular, but that is through no fault of either scenes nor bands in either. One is outgoing, the other is introverted. Finding sources as websites for either point is hard, books and articles is almost a wild goose chase. The only thing i can really offer at hand, is the advice of immersing one's self in the two scenes for a while, as sadly, that is the only truley effective way to understand. Dont take that as me being annoying, im not, im simply stating their is a lack of sources for either argument, so, yeah. Leyasu 20:51, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately, the wikipedia policy of no original research puts a constraint on the article, as it can really only include information that has been written about elsewhere. Have you considered writing a "real" article about the Goth genres, to get published in a magazine or newspaper somewhere? Then the wikipedia article could quote your published one. Elonka 21:28, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
You seem to be making a misconception. Gothic Metal has no connection to goth music. Its part of the cognative metal scene, its own a part of that as with all metal genres. Gothic-Doom is part of both the Goth scene and the metal one. Ive also been commisined by many of the bands in the cumulative metal scene to write the book on metal genres and what they are, though im disallowed myself as a source, so its a bit pointless.
In the end, the only information on hand is several conflicting POV with no sources to them (making them original research which is barred) or citing the facts of what the metal community and goth communitys say, the bands within the scenes say, the fans of the scene say, and the people who work in those scenes from the music industry say.
It is a problem, i know. But then again, tis similar to the Gothic Music article in its relativity, and lack of free information. There 'is' sources, however, i dont have them on hand, and most im sure i wont know about. Perhaps someone neutral in the discussion could do some searching of their own and weigh things up, such as Elonka, as both me and Dante are obviously Biased. Leyasu 21:40, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Creating a referenced page

I recommend doing some Google searches with appropriate terms. For example, to find out what the BBC (a reputable source) says, search on "site:bbc.co.uk goth music"[2]. That brought me to these sites:"Making the world's musical tribes" and "Goth - a lifestyle choice". Or find out where the term "goth metal" appears on CNN [3]. Or rollingstone.com: [4]. One potential way to resolve the dispute is to simply delete *everything* on the page, and then re-add facts one at a time, each with an inline citation showing a reference. For example: "Gothic Doom" is a cross breed of genres, and "Gothic Metal" is "Goth Rock" that is played using Metal structures and styles. Examples of Gothic Metal groups are Lacuna Coil, Type O Negative, and Tristania.[5]. The link in brackets after the statement, shows that the information came from an outside source, and where someone else can find that source. If somebody disagrees with the referenced statement, they cannot change it unless they can find another reputable reference that says something different. If something goes in without a reference, Wikipedia policy is that any editor can remove it, until a reference can be found. Elonka 00:26, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

In agreement with this idea, 100%; I'm actually in the process of creating an article that not only coincides with that referenced statement, but provides sources on how the genre is broken down on both sides of the Atlantic. This, I think, will solve the disagreements on the time-line, what influenced/influences what, etc. Danteferno 01:14, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Erm, i can do that WITH the current article, if you so wish Elonka. And conesnus was reached twice mi-lady that such websites are wrong. BBC and such places are not always good sources for Music information, as a place such as say The BNR Metal Pages wouldnt be a good place for sourcing Rocket Science. But still, ill get to working on the Article's citations after some sleep. (Edit) Note To Dante: If you post any article over the one there, without putting it on a temp page and letting other users go through it until a conensus is reached to post it, then it will be counted as vandalism and will be reverted. Leyasu 00:55, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
As Leyasu already pointed out, while you are certainly right, the criteria for choosing a reputable website is different when it comes to heavy metal music genres. For (an awkward) example, search for "gothic metal" on this same website returns pages citing Dimmu Borgir, a band from Norway, as being gothic metal, while first 10 hits for a search on "Dimmu Borgir" include well known metal-related sites that say they are black metal, and dare I say anyone editing heavy metal articles on Wikipedia if asked would give anything but gothic metal as an answer. I would disregard such a website altogether. -- parasti (talk) 01:32, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
I think that specific circumstance has to do with Meta tags, which I assume is not what Elonka meant in searching for references (on the contrary, if you do find a bio page that actually calls Dimmu Borgir "gothic metal", in plain writing, let me know). ---Danteferno 02:07, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Dante, clarify what you mean by I think that specific circumstance has to do with Meta tags. As it comes across as what your saying is that sources are only allowed if they agree with you. Leyasu 02:54, 20 January 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Interviews and Influences, Timelines, etc.

I took the time to research some bios/interviews of key bands in the genre, and although some have influences that wouldn't be expected (for example, Type O Negative cites the "The Beatles" as one) there seems to be plenty of consistencies to confirm a pattern - most of the earliest bands (progenitors) were located either in the U.S. or England, and by the time the first generation (instigators) took shape, there was water touched in Greater Europe. Most of these bands seem to share some of the same progenitors as influences. This will hopefully make the final article the most comprehensive and far-reaching for a music subgenre on the web.

Theatre of Tragedy (Interview)[6] (biography) [7] Influences listed: Christian Death, The Mission UK, Sisters of Mercy, My Dying Bride, Anathema, Immortal.

Moonspell (biography, press release) [8] (interview) [9] Influences listed: Bathory, Dead Can Dance, Celtic Frost, "metal, darkwave, and gothic music".

Type O Negative (biography, official website) [10] (biography, Allmusic) [11] Influences listed: Sisters of Mercy, Bauhaus, Christian Death

Paradise Lost (biography, Allmusic) [12] (biography, official website) [13] Influences listed: Sisters of Mercy, The Mission UK, Dead Can Dance


This seems to be the closest of the "evolution"

Progenitors:

Christian Death, The Sisters of Mercy, Christian Death, The Mission UK, Celtic Frost, Samhain, Dead Can Dance

Instigators/earliest:

Type O Negative Paradise Lost Theatre of Tragedy The Gathering Tiamat, Moonspell

Modern Goth/ic Metal,

Lacuna Coil, Within Temptation, Thy Sins of Thy Beloved, Crematory, Trail of Tears

What I'm still trying to pinpoint is the origin of gothic metal's use of classical music elements - Christian Death had two epochs - one where they were easily defined as a "goth rock" band, and the second (in or after 1985) which was more metallic, featured chants, operatic female vocals, etc. when the vocalist position switched. So far, they seem to be the main innovator in this regard. After the article intro, I think a summarized timeline would be more important to mention first before a section pertaining to "lyrics and themes", as any intro would need support. ---Danteferno 10:03, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Most of that is correct, except that Type O Negative, Paradise Lost, Moonspell are all counted as part of the Doom Metal scene (Either as Doom-Death, or Gothic-Doom). The problem then is that bands such as Within Temptation grew from Gothic Metal into the Symphonic Metal genre, while others bands such as Sins went into more doom styles effectivly creating the Gothic-Doom scene, with bands such as Lacuna Coil and Trail of Tears carrying on with what is Gothic Metal.
Public conception claims that all Metal is the same, or that anyone who wears black is a goth. Many websites come up with contradicting things on the net, most of which describe the Gothic-Doom scene, which also gets called Goth-Metal, in comparison to the Gothic Metal scene. BNR Metal Pages is a clear example of this. Leyasu 18:37, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Please cite references for the above, thank you. ---Danteferno 15:03, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Other than stepping outside your front door. Ill provide them later when i have time, when im not working and when im not on a break from rehersals. Leyasu 19:31, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Request for comment: view by Tearlach

via Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Media, art and literature

I think that viewing the article in terms of a fixed set of versions, in all of which different editors may have invested ownership, is counterproductive. I recommend going back to basics. Look at every statement and ask: "Is it encyclopedic? Is it supported by reputable published sources?"

I don't know or care who has written what, but I do support Danteferno (talk • contribs)'s suggestion that a complete rewrite is needed. Much of the article is subjective waffle...

Gothic metal is a somewhat linear genre, but due to much debate, its actual definition is not commonly known. Older fans and musicians have a firm concept of the genre having been around through its growth and evolution, having strict ideas of what bands pertain to the genre and what bands dont. Newer fans reject this categorisation as limiting, useless or wrong, often claiming bands are gothic metal that do not meet the distinct vision of the older fans.

Gothic metal is sometimes a loose genre in the way it sounds because the genre is measured by its composition of the music and the features it uses, leaving interpretation to individual bands on how they wish their instruments to sound. The overall sound in gothic metal plays a minor role to suffice only to depict between itself and other genres. It also makes unique use of dual vocalists, keyboards and acoustic guitars, giving itself identity in comparison to other metal genres.

... that conveys zero information to readers who don't know the genre. Tearlach 13:01, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Let me ask then, one question. How can this be improved? Its important to remember in a sense, that consensus was reached twice about the article that Dante wrote, needed to be revised, and due to Dante's constant refusel to help during the revision, it probally isnt now the best article it could be. If the article clearly states the differences in scenes and what is and isnt Gothic Metal, thats fine, everyone can agree. I await the temp page now, so everyone can give their comments forth on things that may be wrong, written badly, or POV. Leyasu 18:40, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Revision Comment

Comment to Dante: When writing the revision, ive done a bit of exploring out in the world today during rehersals, haha. I think i have found why me and you seem to be totally differing on what is, and isnt, Gothic Metal, in regards to the scenes were involved with.

Let me try to explain one at a time, as this is something that will go into the revision, and youve probally got a better hand at explaining things than me, due to my way of direct speaking.

  • Scene 1: Gothic Metal (The Beauty And The Beast).
  • This is attributed by the article in its current state. It fits exactly what is said in the article in its current state. This scene is pretty in on itself, cutting itself off from most large scale promotion and media, somewhat like a 'members only' club. Its the largest, but deepest one of the Scenes, being the most wide spread and known off, yet its bands and fans being somewhat quiet instead of promoting itself. Its also heavily rooted in the metal scene, and is heavily populated by purists like me. It also gets knocked by Goth's a lot, due to it having Gothic in its name, yet having no connection to the Goth scene. Somewhat better described in the Gothic music article.
  • Scene 2: Goth Metal (The Gothic-Doom Scene)
  • Musically this is best described in the Gothic-Doom section of the current article. This scene involves a lot the Goth's and Doom Metaller's, and bands associated with them. The term Goth Metal for this comes from these bands using a lot of influence from Goth Rock, and being intergrated into the Goth subculture. These bands are mostly, and are almost always indepenent of the Beauty And The Beast scene, the scenes rarely coming together in any form. The distinguishment musically and scene wise is a large gap, and the only relation they have to each other is the similar names (Goth Metal - Gothic Metal). (Edit) This however is partially untrue, with 'some' bands being intergrated into the Gothic Metal scene, but its general core isnt. Its a somewhat scene divided in two, while being the same at the same time. Similar to how the article will be in explaining the different scenes associated with the whole Gothic Metal triad.
  • Scene 3: Symphonic Black Metal (Extreme Gothic Metal)
  • In the case of Extreme Gothic Metal, this tends to be mostly a term used by Black Metal fans. Mainly it seems to apply to Symphonic Black Metal bands, inferring they are Gothic Metal. This is rejected by the Gothic Metal scene, due to the bands lacking key elements, such as Dual Vocalists, and Lyrical themes. What happens musically here is that several Black Metal bands, either through commercilisation or their own choice, walk a path of including a lot of Symphonic Metal and Gothic Metal elements into their music. The best example at hand is the highly controversial Cradle of Filth. It is true, that, Cradle of Filth take heavy influence from the Gothic Metal genre. It is also true they have progressed into using more Gothic Metal mechanizations, such as instrument usage. Cradle of Filth however, root themselfs into Black Metal with their image, band associations, fans, and core musical aspects. Corely, they are Black Metal, what can be said, is that they include influence of Gothic Metal on all of their black metal aspects. The same argument can be applied however, to most all Symphonic Black Metal bands. Thus, due to the disassociation from Black Metal with its more purist and neoglistic fans, it gets called Extreme Gothic Metal. The name coming from Gothic Metal due to its influences, and Extreme due to its roots in Black Metal. The other minor name commonly used for it by the same scene is Gothic-Black, where as the whole scene as a whole is called Symphonic-Black Metal.
  • (Struggling to find sources, it seems its a very minute few fan groups, apparantly Metal-Archives has even dropped the label due to complaints and attacks at the site)
  • Scene 4: Symphonic Metal (The Opera Metal Genre)
  • This is the bands you discount as being Symphonic Metal. These bands again, work in their own scene, independent of either Gothic Metal or Goth Metal. They are musically described by the Symphonic Metal article's genre part. It is true, a lot of them grew from Gothic Metal, some from Power Metal, and most from a combination of the two. The genre has ive been exploring isnt just led by female fronted bands, its just mostly led by female fronted bands. Battlelore and Apocolyptica apparantly make work into the genre as well. I have been noticing however, its become a somewhat mixture of Classical Music, Gothic Metal and Power Metal, with some fan groups reffering to it as Gothic-Power. These bands 'sometimes' work with bands of the Gothic Metal genre directly, but only normally through record labels or personel friendships. Something else i also noted was that due to the genres high accesablity and commercilisation (Not from the bands but from record labels and such) its been easily accepted, and many younger fans are assuming its Gothic Metal for reasons explained below, where as metal purists and long time metal fans, and heavily intergrated people such as myself, are calling it Symphonic Metal.


  • Scene 5: Association (Assosciation)
  • A lot of bands are claimed as Gothic Metal on the basis they are from Finland, or share Gothic Fashon, are psuedo-Goth Rock/Gothic Metal influenced, or a myriad of other non subsequent reasons. This includes bands such as Sentenced, HIM, 69 Eyes, Evanescence, Slipknot, Marilyn Manson and a whole host of others. In the case of most bands in this form, Media misconception and general public assumption is that anyone wearing Gothic Fashon or sharing themes associated with depression, morbidity, vampirisim, etc is automatically Goth Rock or Gothic Metal. In this case, this is wrong, and is a simple misconception by most. However, a small scene has built up around these bands, most commonly known as Mall Goth's, and/or other derogatory terms. This is worth mentioning in connection with the Goth Metal scene, as most bands such as these (Him, My Chemical Romance, 69 Eyes) are media associated with the Goth Metal scene, which has on several occasions openly and freely rejected them.

Ok, having kept them in one summary paragraphs each, i thought that might help when you draw up the revision to put up the temp page. Also, the old one was deleted, so youll have to create a new one, but im sure thats well in your abilitys. And it would also be nice, if for once, you worked with me, rather than against me, hence the summarys above to help you with the sketch of revision. Hopefully, if we work together on this, perhaps the article might just get to FA stature. Leyasu 02:03, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Whether I agree or disagree with any of the above, there needs to be sources to back everything up. For instance, I also do not think HIM and those other two bands are goth/ic metal, but I haven't found enough discussion anywhere on the internet where a significant number of people would think otherwise. The Wikipedia article for the band calls them alternative rock, and there is nothing in the band's Talk page where gothic metal was mentioned, or that there was even disagreement about their genre to begin with - so why even bring them up in the article? Also, I am still looking for "Gothic doom" and haven't found any info that it would be a separate genre. This term seems to be applied to bands like Katatonia and October Tide, much like "Goregrind" being applied to Cannibal Corpse or Exhumed. At the end of the day, each pair has an original genre. Danteferno 15:07, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
  • I added some sources to each on a quick look from Google, that should justify including all of them, and should give your template something to help build on. Leyasu 22:27, 21 January 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Gothic Metal/Rewrite

The rewrite (above) has been posted and is still in editing stages - a little way to go, but getting there. I have left sections "Lyrics, Themes, and Composition" and "List of Gothic Metal Bands & Variations" open for other contribution (see the note in italics) but the "History" section at least gives enough descriptions and examples. So let's begin. --Danteferno 22:51, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Reading through it, youve not actually done anything at all that it needs doing, and it STILL needs a major rewrite. It comes off less descriptive, less definative, and wholey POV. Im editing all of it, and then going from there. Leyasu 00:00, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Explain.--Danteferno 00:05, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Opening Paragraph: Yoru trying to define something that has differing definations upon the scene its part of, most of them not including Gothic Rock as an influence.
  • History: First Incarnation? Wtf? This is about the different scenes, not what you wish it to be. This is just an even worse version of the first article.
Thats as far as ive got redoing so far. (Edit) Having further gone through it, youve completely missed the point in doing NPOV, and your citing only one sides view on things, and thats yours. Im rewording it to include both POV, even if its not exactly Neautral in the way i write, im sure a third editor can sort that out for both of us. Leyasu 00:07, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm not quite sure I follow you. This article is not about defining a "scene" or "scenes" - the article is to define a particular genre of music. Being that the current version also states that gothic rock was an influence in gothic metal, I don't know why you're now disagreeing (Being that reputable references were also cited to show the connection, among other things.) --Danteferno 00:24, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Ok, read above in the section i described the scenes. All the different scenes have a completely different take on the genre. The term Gothic Metal is used to mean all of those scenes. Gothic-Rock was an influence on the 'Gothic-Doom' scene, but bears no influence on per say, the 'Beauty And The Beast' scene. Im rewording it, in respect as i do, tryign to keep as much of your wording as i can manage. Also, your 'reputable references' are also citing only ONE POV. not ALL of them. Again, im rewording what i can bit by bit, trying to be mindfull of your wording. Leyasu 00:35, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
You still have not provided evidence/sources/websites that 1. there is a "gothic doom" scene, and 2.. how "gothic-doom" is different/separate than gothic metal. And what is a "Beauty and the Beast" scene? I also don't know how citing a reputable website is "POV". Things (unfortunately) seem to be regressing back to the beginning with this discussion. --Danteferno 00:41, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Three times ive given you sources, that say this. Now your being ignorant, as such, your again discounting sources simply because you chose not to read them. Im revising the article regardless, to reflect the conflicting POV. Leyasu 00:46, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
The sources you provided above do not cover anything you mention. There is nothing about a separate "gothic doom" scene or that symphonic metal evolved from gothic metal. It appears you provided the same sites from the first part of this discussion, which were already talked about. And calling other users "ignorant" is a violation of Wikipedia:No personal attacks and Wikipedia:Civility. Did admins not already warn you (and if I stand correct, temporarily block you) for these same violations? --Danteferno 00:56, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Im calling you ignorant on the fact your acting ignorant. If you read the Doom-Metal site, it explains the deeply rooted Gothic-Doom scene in detail, as does BNR metal pages make mention of it. Leyasu 00:58, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia users do not call other Wikipedia users "ignorant" (or "meglomaniacal") - that's not how it works. Again, please read up on Wikipedia:No personal attacks and Wikipedia:Civility. When you're ready to discuss sans inflammatory verbiage, let me know.--Danteferno 01:08, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Can you both keep this side of the discussion on your talk pages? Thanks.
Well, anyway. The Gathering cite specifically Dead Can Dance, Celtic Frost's Into the Pandemonium and Nocturnus (for the keyboards) as their early influences. There is no mention of any goth rock bands and they do not sound anything like goth rock, so it kind of kills the argument. Also mentioned is Paradise Lost's Gothic, but not as an infuence, merely in a comparison; in fact The Gathering released two demos before that album, and these aren't much different from the debut album (female vocals are added for the album). There are sources to support my claims, if necessary.
Danteferno, you cannot disregard sources Leyasu provided, and if you didn't he wouldn't call you ignorant. Not that he should, though. OK, Google's definition is from Wikipedia, but it is not the only link there. They are not all fanpages or forums, and they do in fact mention differences between gothic metal and goth metal (gothic doom), so as long as there are sources, gothic doom should be mentioned. Or goth metal, if you prefer some confusion. -- parasti (talk) 08:15, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
First things first, Dead Can Dance have been described as "gothic" [15]which probably comes closer to gothic rock, as they do not have any heavy metal traits, but have been called gothic rock or had some association with the music [16]The Gathering is also an example of just one band and their influences.
Parasti, you cannot disregard the fact that User:Elonka asked everyone where there was a "concensus" reached in this discussion, or anyone who claimed it (I recall you being one of only two - you never responded). Or that there was obviously nothing in any page User:Leyasu provided that explained "gothic doom" was a separate genre, or that symphonic metal was derived from either of the two. Also, being that your presence from get-go has only been to defend User:Leyasu (while not successfully defending his positions) I don't think there's much gain in talking to either one of you. --Danteferno 12:12, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Seeminlgy Dante, you choose to ignore the sources, despite the fact two users have now told you they contain the information you claim they do not. You now claim to be ignoring users, simply on the basis they disagree with you, which is exactly what you claimed to do with consensus before on the revision.
Working against other editors will mean a revision to the page will not happen. Is it not better to work with other editors to make the revision the best it can be, rather than simply attack other users simply because you cannot bully them into doing what you want or thinking the way you think? Leyasu 13:15, 24 January 2006 (UTC)


Danteferno, you seem to concentrate on the people who work with you rather than the content of the article in question. Please use my talk page for that.
Dead Can Dance have not been described as gothic by most sources, and reportedly the only connection with goth subculture mistakenly is the name of the band. See their article and see allmusic.com. As for 'one band', if we are to speak about gothic metal, I can surely choose any of the bands referred to as being gothic metal, can't I? What is the point of definition if it does not apply to all bands, especially the one that has partly created the genre?
Now, about that. What is there to support the claim that gothic metal is a crossover of goth rock and heavy metal? The name. What is there to support the claim that it isn't? The band by citing their influences, the music, and goths themselves (this is a personal observation, and not for an encycopedia even if it wasn't). Are there sources that explain why it has connection with goth rock, or that explain on what characteristics of the music this statement is based? Keep in mind that I am not asking for sources that say what is gothic metal, but why is that the definition of gothic metal. The name is obviously not enough.
On the rest of your reply. I withdraw my statement on consensus, there were simply no objections. If you are to avoid mentioning gothic doom, then please explain why does bnrmetal.com, a respectable heavy metal source, have both goth metal and gothic metal in the list with clear definitions. Use the symphonic metal talk page for discussion on symphonic metal. I do not defend Leyasu, and if that's not obvious that is why I don't successfully defend his 'positions'. I defend the facts for which the sources were provided, and which you obviously do not take into account at all. And please do answer to my questions above. -- parasti (talk) 13:43, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Please answer my questions first: where at the BNR metal link it says "gothic doom" is a separate genre, and 2.) where any sites provided say symphonic metal is derived from gothic metal or gothic doom - because that is what Leyasu is insisting (Because he won't, please be sure to include quotations, or point out where it says such (paragraph section, etc) , as this "info" seems to be very "hidden" when you go to them.)
Second, I'm not quite sure why you say "Dead Can Dance" has nothing to do with gothic rock or goth music, when the links I provided say otherwise, and the fact the Dead Can Dance wiki-page says in plain print they have been categorized as goth/ic music. Do you have any explanation behind that?
I'm really sick of arguing with you and Leyasu (if it really is "you" and User:Leyasu, which is becoming seemingly difficult to believe.)--Danteferno 18:58, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
In order:
  1. It doesn't. The article won't mention gothic doom, the reason being no reliable sources. Then, the article will list only the bands that fit the definition of gothic metal, which could possibly exclude either half of the bands, according to what that definition will be. Or, the article will mention goth metal as a separate genre, since as opposed to gothic doom there are reliable sources that this genre does exist. And some bands get to stay in the article.
  2. Not related to the article and as I already said I do not speak for Leyasu's opinions or actions.
  3. Both links are from Google, to online shops, to Usenet articles, to 'goth' bands influenced by Dead Can Dance, to everything2.com, to websites saying they are not gothic. The wiki article is not a source, and incidentally after saying their music is considered to be ethereal goth or world music, the article goes on explaining that Dead Can Dance does not have connections with goths. And above is a link to their page on allmusic.com that does not mention 'goth' at all.
The revision will not happen without discussion (discussing content, not one another). Your 'extra' commentary does not help. If you feel sick, leave the revision to someone who doesn't and who is willing to participate in a discussion. Accusing me of sock puppetry will not help either, contact an administrator for that. Still expecting answers to my questions. -- parasti (talk) 22:18, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
I think you misunderstood me, big time. I never said "gothic doom" did not exist, I pointed out that it is not a separate genre from goth/ic metal. According to the current version of the article, and Gothic Metal/Rewrite (after User:Leyasu edited it without any real discussion - see Wikipedia:Bold) only a few bands are accounted as "gothic metal" and others are "gothic doom", as if both were a separate genre (It's not, and admins and users alike have told User:Leyasu this). Likewise, several bands listed as "gothic metal" don't have their own Wiki-page and are pretty unknown/obscure. That's basically like saying that the majority of gothic metal bands are unknown or obscure.
Because User:Leyasu also won't tell me this, what is a "Beauty and the Beast" scene? Please tell me how this (and his other claim of "scenes") has nothing to do with the site policy on Wikipedia:No_original_research. I could tell you that there's a cannibalistic cult of black metal fans called the Kultinomicons. Want proof? Go to BNR metalpages under the black metal page. Nothing on that, is there? Neither is evidence that Gothic Doom is completely different than Gothic Metal, or that Symphonic Metal evolved from Gothic Metal.
Your assessment on DcD does not stand - Allmusic also does not list ::The Gathering's genre as "gothic metal". You have not listed all of The Gathering's influences, so I fail to see how your take would be anything near conclusive. --Danteferno 23:10, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, ill start with Gothic-Doom. Its a subgenre of both Doom-Metal, and Gothic Metal. Pretty obvious that one was coming. Its scene and bands are more intergrated into the doom metal scene however, and only draw influence from Gothic Metal, instead of interacting with it in any globalised sense.
Secondly. The purpose of the Scenes explanation was explained above. They are used to explain the differences as guidelines, as a reference, for the benifit of easier understanding. Beauty And The Beast and Goth Metal, are names used as temporary to mean what they are next to. As the part above when i gave them explained. So either you simply forget that, or you were ignorant enough to not read it, much like your disregarding of sources.
Thirdly, if you want the Gatherings influences, i suggest clicking here - Also, why not try here as well. Ta da. Thats both The Gathering and Dead Can Dance accounted for. Leyasu 23:22, 24 January 2006 (UTC)


Could you please explain what exactly do you mean by saying that gothic doom is not a separate genre? Doesn't that imply that it doesn't exist? The list currently in the article is by no means complete, and my personal opinion is that some of the bands on the gothic doom list could be moved to gothic metal list. I am not, however, at the moment familiar enough with the bands in question, so I'm not going to edit the list for now or start another discussion.
"Beauty and the Beast" scene and "gothic metal" scene are both essentially the same thing. BNR Metal Pages' definition of gothic metal uses this term. This is also quoted above by Leyasu.

Often the vocal style of such bands is a dead giveaway, with either choirs or the so-called "beauty and the beast" style (a male, death-like vocalist paired with a more angelic female voice) often employed. [17]

doom-metal.com also mentions it. These links might require scrolling down to "What is the difference between Doom-Metal and Gothic?" and "Is 'beauty and the beast metal' Doom-Metal?" respectively, as I use only Linux and can't test them in Internet Explorer.

Gothic-metal depicts a more mellow, melodic and romantic side of metal, often incorporating female vocals alongside male ones, in the vein of "beauty and the beast" metal. [18]

Question #10 on the same page goes more in detail as to what "Beauty and the Beast" metal is and isn't.
I do not think it is useful to list all of The Gathering's influences, as they have left the gothic metal scene more than ten years ago, and the line-up has changed several times. I could add Pink Floyd and The Beatles though. Links you provided don't prove your point more than the allmusic.com link proves mine, and most people I know do not consider Dead Can Dance to be gothic. -- parasti (talk) 19:20, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
"Could you please explain what exactly do you mean by saying that gothic doom is not a separate genre? Doesn't that imply that it doesn't exist?"
No - separation from something and not existing at all are most obviously two different things.
"my personal opinion is that some of the bands on the gothic doom list could be moved to gothic metal list."
IMHO, A LOT of them could be moved to the Gothic Metal list and "Gothic Doom" should be used as a broad term on some Goth/ic metal bands rather than a separate genre.
"Beauty and the Beast" scene and "gothic metal" scene are both essentially the same thing. BNR Metal Pages' definition of gothic metal uses this term. This is also quoted above by Leyasu.""
Again, I think you misunderstood what I said. There is no denying the "Beauty and the Beast" vocal style. User:Leyasu wrote that there's a "Beauty and the Beast Scene", scene likely meaning a music scene, which makes no sense and will confuse readers. That sounds like "Beauty and the Beast going to concerts".
"I do not think it is useful to list all of The Gathering's influences, as they have left the gothic metal scene more than ten years ago, and the line-up has changed several times."
Then what good was it for you to bring them up, other than to argue with me about their music influences?
I have a kind request for you: read through both versions of the Gothic Metal/Rewrite page - explain what can be improved, what needs verification or elaboration, what is very definitive, etc. I'm much more interested in contributing as a group in creating an accurate, descriptive article (my original intention in this thread) than answering to trivial things. I await your feedback. Thank you. --Danteferno 02:07, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Alright. Here's a suggestion: don't call it a "Beauty and the Beast" scene, obviously. The 'vocal style', though, as seen is used mostly in gothic metal compositions only and doom-metal.com FAQ even uses a term "Beauty and the Beast metal" for gothic metal. Unless proven otherwise, Leyasu doesn't have any connection with the website, so it's not original research. Please don't assume I defend Leyasu's version of the article. I am willing to get rid of everything that doesn't have reliable sources and/or isn't logical.
And I have a reading list compiled for you. Please read your version of the revision, Elonka's recommendation, and second paragraph of my first comment in this section. What I thought we were discussing at this point was the first sentence of your revision, which is the definition of gothic metal. I use The Gathering as an example, because I am closely familiar with their biography and discography. What matters are their early influences. For the rest of it see my unanswered questions above. I mean, in case the definition isn't also considered to be a "trivial thing". -- parasti (talk) 23:39, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
The first sentence is about as general, short and to the point as an introductory sentence could get. "gothic music" is largely ambiguous. Later on in the revision, various forms of songwriting are used as examples. If you think the opening sentence does not do justice , what do you suggest would read better? --Danteferno 23:59, 27 January 2006 (UTC)


[edit] My Edits

I have tried, albightly probally not done it as well as it could be done, to show the history of the split in the scene. Mostly, i did this by copying the history from the current Gothic Metal article and Symphonic Metal article. Idea of this is to use this as blueprints for the next batch of edits, and to also give an idea of how to perhaps do the Musical Constructs section. I juggled some names around to match most common names as ive found them used in work over the last few days. Removing it would lose valuable information, as such, wording it better than I would be better. Ive left out sources for the mean time until its been edited again, as that gives me time to compile them better. Leyasu 01:18, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What about Gothic-MetalCore?

I would like to do some documentation on the Gothic Metal-Hardcore Fusion, it is a small scene and only 10 bands in the underground do it without much recognition, and I get shot down everytime I try to define it, is there any help here for this? As Gothic Metal is a growing genre and Hardcore/Metalcore bands are experimenting with different fusions, I believe it should be stated. Gothencore is the Gothenburg-Metalcore style where Symphonic/Melodic (Death) Metal is fused into Hardcore with the gang vocals and breakdowns, but their are other bands who do straight up Gothic Metal with Hardcore too! Thanx.

198.189.164.206 17:18, 26 January 2006 (UTC)Chris Cole198.189.164.206 17:18, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

The Gothcore article was deleted a few weeks ago, the reason being term coining. It had no content, it was constantly vandalised, the article was essentially a talk page on its own. According to your comment, there aren't notable bands that could be labeled as gothcore anyway, so it fails Wikipedia's criteria for notability. Other than that, my personal opinion is that gothic metalcore is an oxymoron in case the gothic part has to do anything with gothic metal, but well. :) -- parasti (talk) 17:50, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
"Gothencore" has nothing to do with goth/ic metal - it's merely an Americanized version of Gothenburg, Sweden-styled death metal with American-hardcore songwriting. I double-checked and found no band that would use "hardcore" and "gothic metal" songwriting styles. Something that needs to be verified with sources/examples (bands, albums, etc.) --Danteferno 23:04, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Regardless of opinion about this page, I believe it needs to be cleaned up. The first three paragraphs under the "Gothic Doom" section are almost identical, and offer nothing more than "Gothic Doom is a mix of doom metal and gothic metal" several times over, rephrased in each sentence.

There is some truth in your words. However, there isnt much more to say about it really. The purpose of it is to show the varied influences and sounds in the Gothic-Doom scene, though it could do with expanding perhaps. Ley Shade 00:35, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Rozz Williams voice

As a fan of Christian Death I can safely say Rozz Williams did not project vocals only in a "deep baritone" way, that is Valor Kand.

Leyasu claims there are sources on the article, yet there is not a single direct source to be found, only links to various metalhead websites homepages. That is not a source, its just an external link, please make direct source links to the piece of information claiming these so called "facts", somebody sort this out, thanks! - Deathrocker 19:11, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

There is a number of sources on this talk page, and in the archives, from both myself and Danteferno. Read them. Ley Shade 19:18, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Please make direct sources to the information on the actual ARTICLE, that is how they should be presented. - Deathrocker 19:19, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Sources exist, yew cannot discount them. End of. Ley Shade 19:25, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I cannot discount them because you are unable to present them, until such a time the info should not be included. - Deathrocker 09:23, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

They are above this subheading. I can present them, but i shall not repeat the archives several times when you can quite easily see them for yourself. Ley Shade 21:19, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I've read through it, I wouldn't be discussing this here if I hadn't.. I am willing to listen if you can provide a source but you refuse point blank, and you are back to your usual tricks naming any other edit but yours "vandalism", you have already got in trouble on here for that before, if you provide a source citing Rozz Williams' Christian Death, (which is been debated here) by all means add it to the page, until them it gets removed. - Deathrocker 21:59, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

There is over 20 sources on this page. Yew obviously havent read them to be arguing. Ley Shade 22:04, 16 March 2006 (UTC)


Please don't bullshit, there are not 20 sources on here claiming Rozz Williams of Christian Death A) Had a baritone voice B) His version of the band was on influence on this genre. Please post the actual sources where they claim so, as I have read through them and haven't seen what you claim. - Deathrocker 22:24, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

The fact your even making this argument shows your lying. But if it appeases yew, ill quote them, when yew let off your revert warring because you dont like this form of music. Ley Shade 22:29, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, its "you" not "yew", second, "you" do not know my opinion on this genre of music as I have not stated either way. Third, I'm still waiting for the source, which is not here. - Deathrocker 22:31, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Oh its here, and i can, if i must, go drag another user i dislike, Danteferno here, because he defended it from me as avidly as i am now from you. And i can also drag Parasti and admin Idonthaveaname here as well, if yew really really want me to. Ley Shade 22:34, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

If you are so sure its here (which I cannot see) then why not just post it? - Deathrocker 22:35, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Here is one that wasnt here, [19]. Oh look, a source, meaning you CANNOT now remove it from the article. Well done. Ley Shade 22:37, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

The source is about a Goth Rock album and the only time Williams is mentioned it says "here is a song dedicated to Rozz Williams entitled “In Hollywood Tonight” that is quite hypnotic and catchy with cascading drumbeats, acoustic strums, lulling bass, and trancey guitars.".... what exactly does this have to do with Rozz Williams having a deep baritone voice or not?.... and what does this have to do with Gothic Metal? Nothing.

Also, stop the personal attacks and lies in the edit summary, I have not been "warned by 3 admins" one of which I have never even heard of, your ignorant behaviour is somewhat overwhelming at times. - Deathrocker 23:19, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Oh right, so the fact that all three have banned yew for 3RR violations means nothing then?
Also, If yew cannot be bothered to read the other sources, thats your problem. Now, if yew want to remove the word baritone, that wouldnt of been a problem. However, Rozz Williams has a history of influence. That means if yew want to remove the baritone, go for it, removing the Rozz Williams entry, is vandalism. Ley Shade 23:23, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

It is not vandalism if there is no source tieing him to Gothic Metal, which we have established here... the link you provided was a review of a Goth Rock bands CD, it had nothing at all to do with this.

You do not own this article.

And also, what relevence is me been banned for 3RR on unrelated articles, when you have just returned from a 42 hour ban and are limited to one revert a day parole which you have totally disregarded, it has no relevence for your "arguement" at all - Deathrocker 23:29, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I have never claimed to own this article, unlike yourself who has actually claimed people cant edit without his permission. Oh, and the fact that youve been warned to discontinue your behaviour by four admins, and the fact over 20 sources say your wrong, doesnt help your case much. Oh wait, the sources dont count because, 'yew cant be bothered to read them.' Ley Shade 23:32, 16 March 2006 (UTC)


[edit] List of Bands

Why is it necessary to list off all these bands and then not even have articles or them. I'm not looking to start a revert war and I don't think the original remover was either. It certainly wasn't vandalism. But again, why does anyone want all of these bands listed here. Its more like a plea for articles than adding anything useful to the topic of Gothic Metal. marnues 05:52, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I'm not sure if half of the bands which are currently listed are even notable enough to meet WP:MUSIC or not. Red links are ugly; I'll remove the bands that don't have articles. --Idont Havaname (Talk) 19:46, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
To clarify, if these bands are in fact notable, write articles about them before including them here. Since I can browse deleted edits, I looked through all of the redlinked bands, and only Macbeth (band) had any edits to it. (It had been deleted as non-notable in an AfD.) --Idont Havaname (Talk) 19:50, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
All the bands are notable and im currently working with a user from the WP:HMM who creates a lot of articles for creation, to get the articles up and running. I already culled the list for impromp, NN bands that are not major in the genres working, and added editorial tags. All of which i did at user Marnues inspiriring. Im not trying to be a bitch here, just work with me on this one. I understand the red links are ugly, but humour them being there for a while. Ley Shade 21:57, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
They need articles if they are in fact notable, and writing articles for them is more productive than simply reverting changes. Most of the bands in the list have been on the list for months and have had no articles written about them. So it's time to get writing, so that the coverage of the genre is better (just like Marnues was saying), rather than just reverting. --Idont Havaname (Talk) 01:17, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Good to see some real cooperation around here. Hopefully I can learn more about Gothic Metal bands with more band articles being made. marnues 01:24, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of list

The list is largly unsourced, and a note telling people "DON'T REMOVE" is a bit incivil as well. Better phrased as "please read the talk page prior to taking any action." So I have. The guidelines on lists is something that bears mentioning: "As a basic principle, you should avoid list-making in entries." - brenneman {L} 03:24, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

All the sources are all over the talk page, and you removed the External Links which make up part of the sources. I relisted EVERYTHING due to the fact the purpose of having the list is to give example of the core bands in the scene and the comparisons within. I also restored the External Links, which make up the sources. 20:48, 11 June 2006 (UTC) Ley Shade
It's actually no-where near good enough to say "all over" while making some sort of hand waving motions. Items need to be sourced, explicitly and in the main article from reliable sources. Again, if the links make up sources, there are now examples for the very easy in-line cite method. Until they get converted into real <ref>s then there is no reason to "store" them in the article, they are there in history. And finally, where is the citation that (for example) Forest of Shadows is a gothic metal band? When you put something in (even if you're replacing it) the verification policy says that you're resonpsible for providing sources.
brenneman {L} 14:12, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Christian Death Pt, 2

Now that you are back and no longer sneak reverting under anons... I'd like to see what your problem with this section is...

"Although Glenn Danzig's Samhain made some attribution to this manner of composition, Death rock band Christian Death are regarded by some as the most influential to the founding of the subgenre. Thought the influence seems to come from Valor Kand's version of "Christian Death", who themselves play a dark style of Heavy Metal, unlike the original incarnation which was the brainchild of Rozz Williams, who had a more punk influenced sound. The current Valor incarnation has even featured members of Metal bands such as Cradle Of Filth guesting on an album.

Celtic Frost, although considered by many as an early black metal band, also played a semi-important role in the development of doom-death, due to their use of "gothic-sounding" atmospherics."

The previous version, showed a serious lack knowledge of Christian Death's music is about... or their history. As explained before, Rozz Williams had an almost efeminate voice, is it VALOR KAND, who has the deep baritone voice.

Rozz Williams' Christian Death's most notable material does NOT include synths... its a darker version of PUNK, nothing to do with any form of metal.

When Valor Kand took the band name, in the 1980s with a totally different line-up to the original band. He turned it into what some could describe as Gothic Metal or a dark form of Heavy Metal... on their last album it featured guests from Dani Filth and some other Cradle of Filth member, comprehend? - Deathrocker 16:47, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

First off, you havent provided any sources, and what you removed is sourced. Second off, your paragraph reads highly POV, for example Dark style of heavy metal, brainchild, Has even.
If you provide a source for what you say, i can copyedit what you have put and that will be fine. But to edit simply to spite me isnt going to get anything into the article. Ley Shade 19:44, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

It isn't POV though.... Christian Death that Valor now fronts is undeniably a darker form of Metal, than say Iron Maiden or Judas Priest, some would say "Gothic Metal"... the original Christian Death, WAS the brainchild of Rozz Williams, he instigated the direction of the band, he put it all together, he wrote all the songs, I think that warrants the term "brainchild".

Read the article on Christian Death alot of the information is freely available there.

I will however, look up some references and add them into the article, sometime today. - Deathrocker 06:52, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I didnt say it was POV, i said it read POV. Terms like 'Brainchild' and 'Has even' inheritantly read in a POV manner. Thats why i said id copyedit it. Ley Shade 07:06, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

The info provided now has three sources, theres no need to remove it now, especially as the other version had factual inaccuracies. - Deathrocker 20:26, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I copyedited as i said i would, seeing as you seem to of completely ignored my previous comments regarding the neutrality of certain phrases. Ley Shade 21:19, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge?

Why not merge gothic rock and gothic metal, they're basically the same thing.

No they arent, they are nothing alike. Try reading both articles, the musical similaritys and scene similaritys are near non-existant. Ley Shade 14:41, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nightwish is not Gothic Metal

They have nothing to do with Gothic Metal. They are a Power Metal band or as others would call them a Symphoinc Power Metal band. Just becasue they have a female singer that does not make them gothic.

[edit] Visions of Atlantis is also not a Gothic metal band

They are a Power Metal band. They have nothing to do with the sound or stlye of Gothic music or Gothic metal.

[edit] Female singer does not = Gothic

I say this because to bands that have really nothing to do with Gothic metal were listed as such. Just becasue a metal band has a lead female singer that does not make them Gothic. Bands such as Nightwish, Magica, Sinergy, Visions of Atlantis, and Lunatica all have a lead female singer but they are not Gothic Metal.

To many times bands are list as Gothic when at the end of the day they do not have the stlye of music.

Logically, you're right. However practically, 'gothic metal' is just a label, and if that label gets widespread use in an illogical way then you still have to acknowledge that. It's not Wikipedia's place to make prescriptive judgements, just descriptive commentary. Kylotan 19:39, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gothic Metal/Rewrite & Metal music/temp nominated for deletion

Thanks--Ling.Nut 15:51, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gothic-Doom Rewrite

Ive started this section so users like myself and Fred138 can discuss the expansion of the Gothic Doom section to better explain Atmospheric Doom, and Goth Metal. This should hopefully allow for a more informative article, as well as a minor improvement in quality across related articles.

[edit] Goth influencing Metal

Could someone also write some descriptive sub-articles in this regarding Goth influenced Metal bands? There are some bands that are Metal that are influenced by the likes of Sisters of Mercy, Christian Death, and even the Horror Punk band The Misfits. Most sound like Goth Rock gone heavier. Type O Negative even has that edge to them. Cradle Of Filth is heavily influenced by Sisters Of Mercy, Tears For Fears, and The Misfits/Samhain.198.189.164.206 23:04, 25 October 2006 (UTC)Christopher Cole

This is an article on Gothic Metal, which doesn't take influence from Goth Rock bands. If yew wish to discuss that, or show a bands influence, doing so on the bands article would be best.

Christopher, here's a short list of who influenced who:

That's some who I remembered right now.

201.50.45.161 13:45, 19 November 2006 (UTC) José Felipe de Sá

Most of those bands are not Gothic Metal. Most are Doom Metal or Gothic Doom (Goth Metal).

There are no Doom Metal bands in the list above. The most important Doom Metal bands are: Trouble, Candlemass, Solitude Aeturnus, Witchfinder General and Cathedral.

Labelling Paradise Lost or Anathema Doom Metal is a common mistake. Even Lee Dorian said so, and he's the supreme authority in anything related to Doom Metal. And remember, he's the frontman of Cathedral and owner of Rise Above, the premiere Doom Metal label worldwide.

201.8.118.109 14:53, 21 November 2006 (UTC) José Felipe de Sá

Common fact is they are Doom Metal. Very few places list them as Gothic Metal, because they arent Gothic Metal. When i said Doom by the way, that does include Gothic-Doom - the subtle blend of Gothic Metal and Doom Metal.

"Common fact is they are Doom Metal".

No, that's not a "common fact", that's a common mistake - one that was very debated on the early nineties. Early My Dying Bride, Paradise Lost, The Gathering and Anathema are not Doom Metal. They're Doom / Death Metal, almost an entirely different genre.

Musical characteristics:

Considering these not so subtle differences, it's definately wrong to call a band like Paradise Lost "Doom Metal".

PS: whoever is replying to my comments, don't be shy; please sign your posts.

201.50.118.149 16:11, 22 November 2006 (UTC) José Felipe de Sá

I have a reason for not signing them. Second when i say Doom Metal, im shorthanding all of its variations. Sorry for that, misunderstanding.

"I have a reason for not signing them".

Why? Were you banned? Are you Leyasu?

"Second when i say Doom Metal, im shorthanding all of its variations. Sorry for that, misunderstanding".

Ok, point taken.

Doesnt matter who i am. Alls that matters is the knowledge.

[edit] First Goth Metal records

First of all, this is a well-researched, well-done page.

Second, the first Goth Metal album ever released was Icon (1993) from Paradise Lost, closely followed by Type O's Bloody Kisses (1993), Tiamat's Wildhoney (1994) and Lacrimosa's 1994 Schakal single.

Regarding Therion: when they hit it big in the mid-'90s with Theli, selling 100,000 units of that record, Paradise Lost had already reached the 1 million mark by that time. All things considered, Therion is, in the great scheme of things, a minor-league player in the... er, actually, they're not Goth Metal at all. They're Symphonic Metal.

I hope that helped.

201.50.40.75 22:45, 14 November 2006 (UTC) José Felipe de Sá

If yew had checked, Goth Metal and Gothic Metal are different things. But if you would like to contribute to the rewriting of the Gothic-Doom section, your input would be welcomed.

I just re-read the article.

So now there's a difference between "Goth Metal" and "Gothic Metal" (besides the "ic")? Sorry, I've never heard of that... and I've been following underground metal since 1992 (Hell, I've been buying records from Anathema, Paradise Lost & My Dying Bride since 1993).

Can you show me an article by a serious metal journalist who actually justifies that split?

And please, do not show me some Internet article; we know how trustworthy these are... :)

I'm not trying to offensive, but that division sounds forced.

Please, correct me if I'm wrong... I won't be offended if I am.

Best wishes.

PS: what is Therion still doing in the "Gothic Metal (1993-present)" section? Take that abomination away.

201.50.45.161 13:21, 19 November 2006 (UTC) José Felipe de Sá

The division isn't forced, its well known in either scene, just not in common media (anything in black or with a keyboard is Gothic in common media). Please read the section Common Misconceptions.

"...its well known in either scene".

In "either scene" from where?

It is a well-known fact that the metal scenes from every major city have different conceptions what bands fit in certain genres. Imagine, then, the conceptions from different countries.

I imagine that in the US there isn't a strong Gothic Metal scene (not the case with Death Metal), and the members of this scene may also have their particular conceptions regarding the boundaries of the aformentioned style. These conceptions might clash with the European conceptions of what is Gothic Metal... which is a problem, because Europeans have a bigger mileage regarding that metal genre.

And, no offense: I'm still waiting for that article from a "serious" journalist talking about this genre split.

201.8.118.109 15:06, 21 November 2006 (UTC) José Felipe de Sá

This says whats a 'serious' journalist. Your personal view doesnt withstand. And yes, what you have just mentioned is mentioned in the opening paragraph, and in the common misconceptions.

"This says whats a 'serious' journalist".

I've just read this link. Curious: whoever is replying to me (please sign your posts) apparently doesn't match up the criteria.

"Your personal view doesn't withstand".

Neither does yours. Still, I have 14 years in the Heavy Metal scene and you're - probably - new to scene, judging by the lack of knowledge in some areas of the aforementioned subject.

And, no, you still haven't presented your sources.

Again, whoever is replying to my posts, sign.

201.50.118.149 16:29, 22 November 2006 (UTC) José Felipe de Sá

Consider that i was around before Gothic Metal even happened - then say im new to the scene. The sources are also scattered throughout the archives, as there was another user who made the same argument as he did, and promptly lost that argument due to overwhelming sources and numbers of people telling him he was wrong.
However, when the article was redone, the Goth Metal/Atmospheric Doom thing wasnt really readily applied - now it is. Now the article needs updating.
Oh, and on judging by the lack of knowledge in some areas of the aforementioned subject. Just to let you know, you sound like Metal Archives, who dont list bands as what they are - they list as what they think they should be playing. Oh, and your also repeating media intepretations of things - again, see Common Misconceptions.

[edit] American Goth Metal Bands

Another thing: and what about the American Goth Metal bands?

For example: an analysis of the mid-to-late '90s phase of Christian Death would be very interesting. They released some solid Goth Metal records like Sexy Death God (1994) & Pornographic Messiah (1998). And what about Shadow Project, Rozz Williams's post-Christian Death band?

Also, something more about Type O Negative's musical output is sorely missed... For example, how their music influenced European Goth Metal acts (Moonspell and Lacuna Coil, for two).

And last - but not least - what about Danzig? Yes, his Metal is not Goth Metal in the rigorous Eurocentric definition of that term; nevertheless, he/the band influenced loads of Gothic Metal acts such as Anathema and Moonspell.

201.50.40.75 23:05, 14 November 2006 (UTC) José Felipe de Sá

Lacuna Coil is Gothic Metal, not Goth Metal. Anathema and Moonspell are not Gothic metal, either. Please read the article.

11 years ago, when asked by Terrorizer magazine what kind of music they played, Anathema themselves said they played a type of "gothic metal" (that was the first time I heard the term).

Secondly, when Moonspell released Irreligious (1996) they were immediately included as one of the leading lights of European Gothic Metal by some very serious Metal magazines (Brazil's Rock Brigade, for one).

201.50.45.161 15:21, 19 November 2006 (UTC) José Felipe de Sá

Ive been following the Melodic Metal genres for many years. Trying to question me isn't going to affect my argument. Also, it is common knowledge that small independent magazines are not seen as reliable sources. Magazines deliberatly misrepresent bands to sell issues all the time - what they give is opinion, not facts.
Bands themselfs are also not seen as credible sources for their own genre, as many bands claim to be something they are not.
Something i forgot to mention before. The Gothic-Doom section does need seperating out into Goth Metal (what yew seem to be quite knowledgable on) and Atmospheric Doom. With your knowledge of Goth Metal's history, you could be highly helpfull in the rewriting of it.

"I've been following the Melodic Metal genres for many years".

It first glance, Melodic Metal bands don't seem too different from a number of contemporary Gothic Metal bands.

But I guarantee you that: Helloween and Paradise Lost come from completely different frame of minds, music-wise. If you want, I can later tell you some I've noticed.

Also, I wouldn't say Terrorizer UK and Brazil's Rock Brigade are "small, independent magazines". Quite the contrary: they are major-circulation magazines in the Heavy Metal scene. I can't think any magazine bigger then them besides Kerrang! (which is the biggest selling music mag in the United Kingdon).

"Magazines deliberately misrepresent bands to sell issues all the time".

Yes, they do. Even so, they are still the most reliable source for information. Being payed to write gives you a certain credibility (not always, but it does).

"What they give is opinion, not facts".

There's no "impartial" journalism. Even science isn't - and can't - be neutral.

"Bands themselves are also not seen as credible sources for their own genre, as many bands claim to be something they are not".

Yes, sometimes they say some pretty weird stuff. Like a regular Gothic Metal band calling themseves "Ethereal Romantic Windy Transparent" Metal or something like that.

But we're not talking about johnny-come-latelys here. We're talking about Anathema, one of the founding fathers of the genre, and one of the bands that might have coined the term itsself (Gothic Metal).

"With your knowledge of Goth Metal's history, you could be highly helpfull in the rewriting of it".

Thank for your compliment.

201.8.118.109 15:37, 21 November 2006 (UTC) José Felipe de Sá

Notice i said Goth Metal, not Gothic Metal. Gothic Metal started with The Gathering, and more notably Theater of Tragedy.
What your talking about is mostly Doom Death and Gothic Doom bands. Pretty different from Gothic Metal.
However, yew seem to know more about Goth Metal bands than me, as im more experienced with Atmospheric Doom (yes, i learnt of this great division only recently).
Thats why i said dont confuse the two (common misconceptions), and instead engage with me here and we can make progress on improving the Gothic Doom section.

"Notice i said Goth Metal, not Gothic Metal. Gothic Metal started with The Gathering..."

I wouldn't say Always... is the first Gothic Metal record. That's risky. I say that because:

  • The only type of vocals present are Death grunts;
  • The interplay between guitars is minimum;
  • The first time the term "Gothic Metal" was used describing The Gathering's music was when the band released Mandylion, in 1995. That's when Anneke van Giersbergen entered the picture (female voice...).

Furthermore, Paradise Lost's Gothic (1991) is closer to the mark. Although a Doom / Death Metal album, it laid the blueprint for what was to become European Gothic Metal.

"...and more notably Theatre of Tragedy".

Theatre of Tragedy are My Dying Bride rip-offs. Their first truly Gothic Metal album was 1998's Aégis - that's five years than later Icon, the first true Gothic Metal album.

PS: Instead of ripping-off My Dying Bride, in Aégis Theatre of Tragedy try to copy the groundwork that Paradise Lost laid on albums such as the aformentioned Icon and 1995's Draconian Times. It's painfully obvious to hear the PL influence on this period of Theatre of Tragedy's career.

Once again, I hope that helps.

201.50.118.149 16:59, 22 November 2006 (UTC) José Felipe de Sá

Wrong again. Both of those albums were called Gothic Metal. They were only called Gothic Metal in mass media when the term became the next 'advertising' slogan.
And there is no European Gothic Metal - there is just, Gothic Metal, regardless of nationality. And Paradise Lost have played Doom Death, not Gothic Metal. Again, you sound like your repeating whatever mass media magazines tell you - which is 90 garbage.
And again, they influenced, they didnt originate Gothic Metal. Hence why it says they influenced in the article.

"Wrong again. Both of those albums were called Gothic Metal".

By whom? And where? Again, where's your reference?

"They were only called Gothic Metal in mass media when the term became the next 'advertising' slogan".

I wouldn't call Metal Maniacs, Terrorizer and Rock Brigade "mass media" magazines. I also wouldn't call the xeroxed, black-and-white zines I read "mass media".

On the other hand, Rolling Stone would be a prime example of a mass media magazine - and they don't even like Metal (no wonder I dislike that magazine).

Tell me then: what is a mass media magazine to you?

"And there is no European Gothic Metal - there is just, Gothic Metal, regardless of nationality".

American Gothic metal and European Gothic metal differ greatly. I wouldn't separate them into different genres, but they definately are different.

"And Paradise Lost have played Doom Death, not Gothic Metal".

Calling Paradise Lost Doom Metal is as strange as calling them Death Metal. That simply doesn't paint the whole picture. That's why the Doom / Death Metal tag is so important.

Also, I challenge you to point a single Doom Metal riff on PL's Draconian Times (1995).

"Again, you sound like your repeating whatever mass media magazines tell you - which is 90 garbage".

Again you sound obtuse & oblivious to anybody else's argument. You are really like that Leyasu character.

"And again, they influenced, they didnt originate Gothic Metal. Hence why it says they influenced in the article".

They did originate Gothic Metal and you offered no convincing argument otherwise.

And citing this crappy Wikipedia article is a circular argument.

201.50.63.113 21:59, 2 December 2006 (UTC) José Felipe de Sá

The archive links are above yew. Mass media magazines are magazines that are popular. And again, no difference in Gothic Metal - it is what it is, your as bad as that user on the Folk Metal page that tried to 'invent relations' between genres that dont exist.
Cite something that isnt a repeat of the same mass media citation all ready and we may have something to talk about. Also cite a source that hasnt already been discounted. I think youll find youll have a very hard job.

[edit] Leyasu

This talk page is rather confusing to read. I'll just point out that the user:Leyasu is still actively editing this article despite being completely banned from editing on wikipedia. Presenting the many identities of Leyasu ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.152.216.25
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.153.41.223
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.155.146.226
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.157.66.36
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.157.91.34
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.153.143.33
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.157.80.240
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.153.44.28
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.157.68.251
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.153.40.247
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.156.159.73
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.153.143.62
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.157.65.172
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.153.42.24
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.157.69.113
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.157.66.19
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.153.142.241
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.156.158.118
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.153.42.120
--Anarchodin 04:25, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Actually Leyasu is the reason the article is semi-protected. Many editors know of Leyasu and his continued attempts to evade his ban, most revert his edits on sight.--Wildnox(talk) 04:33, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
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