Talk:Gotham City

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Contents 1 Untitled question 2 map 3 Underground Railroad 4 Mutant Leader 5 Crime Alley 6 Location in New Jersey? 7 GCPD Poster 8 Chicago influences? 9 Pittsburgh? 10 Out-of-universe perspective 11 Ask the Answer Man 12 verb tenses 13 Mayors 14 Poem 14.1 The Gotham City poem 15 Fictional City in NJ 16 Origin of Gotham?

[edit] Untitled question

"a federal edict cut off the city from the rest of the country"

why was this done?

i believe it was declared a "no man's land" by the federal government in the comic of the same name. I think the reason was because there were so many costumed freaks running around gotham... but i could be wrong. gotham is now no longer a no man's land and that period is sometimes referred to as "NML", specifically by characters in gotham central.-Runciblerabbit 15:10, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Following an earthquake, Gotham City was officially abandoned by the United States and declared No Man's Land. This lasted about a year. It's actually quite a good story arc. -- SamSim 22:08, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] map

How can I add a picture of the map of Gotham City?

[edit] Underground Railroad

I have changed material regarding Batman Begins which claimed that Gotham was located in the American South because Wayne Mannor was a stop on the Underground Railroad. The Underground Railroad extended up the east coast all the way to Canada, into the Midwest, and west to Mexico. The tidbit in the movie does not place Gotham in the South, but anywhere along this route. I've adjusted the paragraph to refer to the east coast route because it is the route most popularly used in popular culture. ~CS 18:02, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mutant Leader

Elfguy recently merged the article "The Mutant Leader" with this one. I have made the following changes to this action:

• The Mutant Leader formally redirected here. I changed that redirect to a more appropriate article, Batman: The Dark Knight Returns.

• I removed the wikilink to The Mutant Leader in the [Batman: The Dark Knight Returns]] article, as it redirected to itself.

• The material about the Mutant Leader here consisted wholey of material from the Batman: The Dark Knight Returns article. As the Mutant Leader doesn't have any more relvence on this article as any other Batman villian, I removed the subsection from this article entirely. If The Mutant Leader isn't going to have an article dedicated to himself (I agree, he's not important enough to) then the appropiate place would be in the book he appears in, not a tangically related article. ~CS 18:21, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Crime Alley

I removed the following, recently merged from Crime Alley:

Spoiler warning: Plot and/or ending details follow.

In the graphic novel Batman: The Dark Knight Returns, an elderly Bruce Wayne also chooses Crime Alley as the setting for his dramatic showdown with Superman, who had been enlisted by the United States government to defeat Batman. Using various tricks and with the help of the Green Arrow, Batman defeats his rival and afterwards fakes his own death.

The alley has also been portrayed in film. In Batman and Batman Forever, flashbacks are seen of Bruce watching his parents being killed by a thug named Jack Napier, who would later become the Joker. In the former film, Vicki Vale also spots an adult Bruce laying flowers on the street. In the reboot of the Batman films, Batman Begins, the murder is seen in more detail, with Joe Chill depicted as the shooter.

Spoilers end here.

I removed this because it was way too bloated to appear in the the succinct "Notable places" list. Perhaps some of it could be re-worked into the main part of the article? A section on "The Wayne Murders" might be appropriate.

Additionally, I think some of this may be superfluous: Do we really need a summery of the end of Batman: The Dark Knight Returns in an article about Gotham City? Is that Crime Alley appears in three Batman movies really worth mentioning? What is significant about their renditions of Crime Alley that make it worth dedicating a lengthy description in the article?

I think this is a product of Crime Alley being merged without being disseminated throughout the article appropriately -- the content was appropriate in that article, but not copied and pasted into this one. ~CS 03:33, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Location in New Jersey?

The current version of the article goes as follows:

Current Batman comics state that Gotham City is located in New Jersey, with recent maps closely following the geography of southern Ocean County, with Gotham City's location nearly matching that of the Mystic Island section of Little Egg Harbor Township.

If this is true, it needs to be cited. I'm not a current reader of Batman comics, but I was up until the mid-1990s, and Gotham City was never stated outright in the comics to be in any one state in any issue I ever read (the same went for Metropolis, except for an early 1940s issue which said "Metropolis, NY"), so I would be surprised if this policy was changed recently. If Gotham City has directly been stated to be in New Jersey proper, then give the issue number for outside verification. If this is someone's conjecture based on clues in the comics that hint at Gotham City being in New Jersey, then that needs to be said in order for this article to be as accurate as possible. Kaijan 23:59, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

I am not the author of this paragraph, but in discussions held elsewhere, the justification for Gotham's location in New Jersey is from Shadow of the Bat Annual #1. ("Joe Public" by Alan Grant and Trevor Von Eeden, a "Bloodlines" crossover issue.) This issue contains an image of a Gotham driver's licence which, if I recall correctly, gives an address of "Gotham County, New Jersey." I'm not certain this is enough to say it is explicit, or an insubstantial clue. ~CS 18:39, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Was it directly stated that Gotham City is in Gotham County? (Is there any kind of precedent for a large city having a bordering, but out-of-state, county named for it?) -- 68.14.138.223 07:04, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Since no evidence has been offered to document the assertion, I'm going to remove it. --Chancemichaels 16:52, 3 October 2006 (UTC)Chancemichaels

The driver's license as depicted in that issue was in fact referring to "Gotham City, NJ", to quote the text directly. Scans of the relevant page should be possible. - DEW, 19 October 2006.

[edit] GCPD Poster

Image:GCPD.JPG was recently removed from this article over copyright concerns.

This image is originally from a two-page spread in Batman Secret Files #1. Published in 2000. Pencils are by Jeff Moy, inks by W.C. Carani and colors by Tom McCraw.

If the image is to remain, the uploader needs to justify how this image falls under under fair use. The low-resolution of the image is a start -- and could possibly use an art tag. ~CS 16:31, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chicago influences?

The article currently says

The 2005 film Batman Begins places Gotham somewhere near the American east coast, as Alfred comments that the caverns beneath Wayne Manor that are to be converted into the Batcave were once used by a Wayne ancestor to hide escaping slaves in the Underground Railroad. In addition, various camera shots reveal a geography similar to but not the same as New York City.

Batman Begins was shot in Chicago. The license plates in the movie are from Illinois. Chicago is known for an extensive above-ground commuter rail system.

Additionally, architectural styles are in the same vein. I've always suspected Gotham gets at least some influence from the Second City. Is this substantiatable enough to mention in the article?

MrShoggoth 02:10, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pittsburgh?

I was curious as to the reference to Pittsburgh. Could someone cite a source on this one? These aren't the only two cities with Gothic architecture, so what sets Pittsburgh apart?

possibly the Cathedral of Learning. I've read the Pittsburgh reference before elsewhere, though I'm not sure where.--Chris Griswold 14:43, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Until somebody can provide evidence, I'm removing the reference. Please feel free to put back in if you can support it. --Chancemichaels 20:18, 26 July 2006 (UTC)Chancemichaels

[edit] Out-of-universe perspective

Much of this article is written in an "in-universe perspective", that is, it presents the history and geography of Gotham City as if it were a real place. The guideline Wikipedia:Writing about fiction argues against this, in part because in-universe writing has a tendency to promote original research. Possible examples of this in the Gotham City article are the specific dates about police corruption — what's the source for saying that the events of Batman: Year One took place in 1986? (It was published in 1987, and I think that DC's current chronology has it taking place "twelve years ago" or something like that.)

I'm not enough of a Batman expert to attempt the rewrite myself, but it would be great if someone could rebuild this article to comply with WP:WAF. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:28, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I've been rewriting to OOU. and according to The history in 52, yeah, it's about 12 years from the appearance of superman to the current 'one year later' setting. ThuranX 18:20, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, ThuranX. It's already looking better. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 22:41, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I used 'radical' becaues entire blocks and major landmarks were removed and new ones added, including, IIRC, a new police building, major redesigns to the Penguin's clubs and buildings, a new Arkham, and other changes to the layout and major centers of the city. The story compared it to the 1906 Cisco quake, which allowed basically a new city to be built on the rubble of the old. that constitutes 'radical' change by any reasonable examination of the word's relevant definition, even by 'out-of-universe perspective.ThuranX 05:40, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, the landmarks and some of the architecture were changed radically, but the sentence actually said that the storylines "allowed writers to radically change the nature and mood of the city". I'm not sure that the nature and mood of Gotham City changed significantly after those storylines — it's still the same hard-bitten, vaguely corrupt city it always was.

I don't object hugely to "radical", but I personally think most of the changes post-NML were cosmetic. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:51, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

That it has trended back to the generic may be the case, but right after those stories, there wre many 'john q public' reference to being tough enough to survive in gotham, and for a few years we've seen references to the schism between those who stayed, and those who either fled and returned, (called 'returners' for a time) or who moved to Gotham after. There were lingering plotlines and characteristics ofthe populace which originated in that trio. (Also, I used 'trio' instead of 'three storylines' to reinforce the group/set nature of the three, in that each built on and directly continued the previous, instead of them being any three storylines.) ThuranX 05:56, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not adamant about the change; you can restore the prior wording if you like. I thought that "trio" was slightly unclear, since it usually refers to three people rather than three of an abstract concept like storylines. (I actually considered replacing "trio" with "three linked storylines" instead, but decided against "linked" because it was too wordy.)

I do recall the portrayals of the resilient citizens of Gotham you're talking about — I think that Ed Brubaker's stories in particular highlighted this quality. I suppose I just saw the change as more organic than radical — but as I say, it's not something I feel strongly about. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:15, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Which issue of 52 says Batman has been around 12 years? As far as I know, that's an old timeline, the one from Zero Hour #0. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 10:11, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ask the Answer Man

Unfortunately, I don't have access to my old comic collection now to track down the exact publication information of the Ask the Answer Man column. However, I believe that it is confirmable by someone who still has their 1970s DC issues -- the column ran in all DC publications for that month. In order to attract such research, it seems to me that it would make sense to leave in the reference to the Ask the Answer Man column and note that the exact reference should be tracked down. On the New Jersey location, the DC Universe guide published by Mayfair in connection with the role-playing game had a map that depicted Gotham City as being in New Jersey. That can be cited for the New Jersey reference. That guide pretty much contradicted all the Ask the Answer Man details, I believe. Acsenray 18:00, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] verb tenses

Although issue by issue events may use present tense at all times, things tied to established historical events are the past bothe for the reader and the character, who 'currently exists' in an analogue of the modern world in his own continuty. I have edited the article to reflect such things. ThuranX 20:31, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Again. Given that the character and the continuity set green lantern in the modern world, his actions during world war 2 are in the past. As such, I have edited to reflect such. Finally, SP:CMC has no more authority than anything else on wiki, so your little bully club can go away if you don't like it. ThuranX 06:32, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't appreciate your usual attitude. The WikiProject Comics guidelines merely reflect Wikipedia:Guide to writing better articles, Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style, and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Comics. So it's not just WP:CMC. Try keeping your attitude to yourself. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 09:06, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Try not to be a bully, though you clearly are, since you're self-declared as such. The policy is wrong. It's simply bad, unscholarly writing. Huck Finn is different at the end of the book. He has changed. his state at the beginning and end do NOT co-exist. Jim is NOT both slave and free at once. Characters change nad have histories. Otherwise, there's no point in writing a story. NO one cares about a character who never changes, never does anything, and never experiences. "Fred sat there." repeated for 300 pages is a lousy novel. Fred is still in the seat, and that's that. Likewise, all these characters experience, and evolve. Finally, WW2 is in the past, in the real world, in the comic world, and in Alan Scott's history. You can bully all you want, since it's pretty much all you ever do, but I'm not backing down. ThuranX 17:00, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

This is not the first time I have asked you not to make personal attacks, nor is it the first time on this page. I have never claimed to be a bully; I made a userbox about being a bully as a joke that is not even on my userpage. I also made a Steelers fan userbox but am not a Steelers fan. See how that works? I can pick up an issue of All-Star Comics and Alan Scott currently lives in Gotham. That's how that works. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 18:32, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Having been pointed to this debate by ThuranX from WT:WAF, I should note that I think he might have misunderstood my comments there, so I'll clarify them here. Out-of-universe perspective implies present tense; it also implies grounding the fiction with real-world language (such as issue number, publication history, etc.). This section that appears to be in dispute doesn't do the latter; ThuranX seems to assert that this makes it difficult to understand. I'd argue that the present tense is correct, but should probably be accompanied by some connection to the real world. For example, instead of saying, "Alan Scott, the Golden Age Green Lantern, was based there before World War II..." (which doesn't make it immediately clear to the casual reader whether the depiction was made before WWII, or whether the comics themselves are set in WWII), a better way of wording this would be: "Issues #Y-Z of This Series, which are set during World War II, place Alan Scott, the Golden Age Green Latern, in Gotham City." Also, I'd advise both ThuranX and Chris to be mindful of the three-revert rule. — TKD::Talk 18:07, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

You're right; the more out-of universe the better. I just have gotten tired of dealing with Thuranx who repeatedly calls well-intentioned editors "bullies." It's just difficult to work someone like that. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 18:32, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Why I disagree with your reverts: We do not use the word "current", comic book series titles should be italicized, and the issue depicts - in present tense - the past tense flashback. Also, it's best to take it easy on commas. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 19:12, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

By your own admission, it is a flashback. By any common sense definition, even if you view the issue as a whole as the present, the flashback is still the past. Therefore, she liveD there, past tense, no other way to report it. There is no issue in which the entire story is set in gotham, focusing upon her, as a 'present tense' issue, merely flashbacks to a time before the present when she lived there. You already compromised on it, and now you've gone back on that. I feel that your word is worthless, and have zero confidence in your Good Faith. I also believe that you are only pursuing this in the hopes of getting me in a 3RR violation so you can pursue administrative recourse. I will not give you that satisfaction. ThuranX 19:56, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

It is really miserable trying to work with you. You immediately jump to conclusions, levy accusations of bullying, and make personal attacks. Please read about good faith because in the interactions I have had with you, you have not exhibited it toward me or other well-intentioned editors you diagree with. Yes, it's a flashback. The present tense is still used to say "the issue presents a flashback." --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 23:21, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I've been trying to find a kind way to reply, but there is none. You're a bully, and right now you're playing the 'poke them till they poke back, then cry to the authority figure' game. I'm not going to play. if you think that the above phrasing really was a solution, you'd have used it long ago, avoiding this fight. Instead, you said that you accepted it as a compromise, and as soon as you got your way on other parts of this edit, you went back on your word. I have a lower opinion of you now than I had before. ThuranX 00:57, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Re:"The policy is wrong. It's simply bad, unscholarly writing." This isn't the place to debate that. This is Wikipedia's playground. We play by their rules. If you deliberately violate their style guides, it is inevitable that your contribution will simply be undone. I agree that the whole past/present tense thing gets strange and bizarre at times in ways that weird me out. In fact, when adding to an article, I tend to stick with whatever tense it's already in even when I know it should be present because (1) I don't feel like editing the tense in the entire article (well, unless it's just a stub anyway) and (2) the article's text needs to look consistent. Almost every English instructor I know would prefer that you make certain errors consistently if you must make them at all. Regarding the past tense for a flashback within a present tense scene, I'd probably have written the flashback in past tense myself, but I wouldn't have taken offense when somebody else fixed it. I sure wouldn't have gone through the trouble to change text throughout an article to word it in a way I know Wikipedia says not to do. I don't understand wasting time on edits I know will not be allowed to stay. Doczilla 00:24, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mayors

both Hill and Kroll are currently listed as being mayor in the run up to Knightfall. Can we get some citations to clarify this? thanks. ThuranX 17:49, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Mayors Info at this url: Scroll down a bit http://obscure.dcuguide.com/Board/BatmanChars4.htm Enda80 13:38, 18 October 2006 (UTC)Enda80

That's the same damn forum chatter as someone posted up here in it's LENGTHY entirety before. It's a FORUM. Find a real citation. ThuranX 20:24, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Poem

I've cleaned up the formatting a bit... though I'm unsure if the section should be included at all. It it should, there needs to be some clarity about which series saw Batman recite the poem. — J Greb 15:13, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and removed it. In addition to almost every sentence needing a citation, most of the introduction ins unclear and poorly written, reprinting an entire poem violates copyright, and there needs to be some form of indication that a) Wright intended the poem to be about Batman's Gotham City or b) someone involved with creating a Batman story was influenced by the poem. As it stands, this paragraph appears to be purely speculation. ~CS 17:56, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Gotham City poem

This famous poem brought Gotham City to life, it made history, and was used as an example of Gotham City ever since it was
written by renown poet James Arlington Wright in 1962. This poem was so graphic that the actual 
producers of the Batman series used it as a guideline in making the city background.[citation needed]  Also in the sixth 
episode the poem is actually said by Batman when he is ovelooking the city. The following is the poem written by James Wright 
that would change Gotham City forever.

Gotham City

The Darkness stalks the night

Street Gangs Roam

Rich men are afraid to walk the city in darkness

For fear of being mugged by filthy ragged criminals

People stalk the street like packs of hungry beasts

Just for a single cell of food to enrich them in the glory of taste

A man walks through an alleyway

gold shining on his wrist

A man whos face can not be recognised grabs him

Bearing a knife

The man struggles, and the last sight, a knife plunges into his heart

He falls, silence

The sound of rising sirens echo through Gotham City once again

[edit] Fictional City in NJ

Since the location of Gotham is essentially unresolved, shouldn't it be removed from this cat? Also... is the same the case for Bludhaven? — J Greb 00:32, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I always assumed (from its name) that Blüdhaven was a "dark" version of New Haven, Connecticut, or what New Haven might have been like if it weren't for Yale. So, more like Bridgeport, Connecticut, really.

As for the category, I agree that the evidence is far too equivocal to include.—Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:30, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Is the NJ location confirmed anywhere at all? --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 03:35, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Since the article addresses the issue of the lack of a DC editorially endorsed 'permanent' location for GC< i'v removed the category. ThuranX 04:29, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay -- sorry this took so long. Here is the panel in question. It is from Batman: Shadow of the Bat Annual #1. 1993, DC Comics. Written by Alan Grant, pencils by Trevor von Eeden, inks by Dick Giordano:

Please note -- I do not think that this image should be used to claim that Gotham City is unabmigiously in New Jersey. As far as I know, this is the only time DC Comics has published something to this effect, and I believe that all it proves is that New Jersey is one of the many places Gotham has kinda-sorta been located in over the years of publishing Batman stories. But -- it was published, so perhaps there's a need to mention this. ~CS 00:28, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of Gotham?

The Wise Men of Gotham [were], in English legend, wise fools, villagers of Gotham, Nottinghamshire, Eng. The story is that, threatened by a visit from King John (reigned 1199-1216), they decided to feign stupidity and avoid the expense entailed by the residence of the court. Royal messengers found them engaged in ridiculous tasks, such as trying to drown an eel and joining hands around a thorn bush to shut in a cuckoo. Hence, the king determined to stay elsewhere. The "foles of Gotham" are mentioned in the 15th-century Wakefield plays. Merrie Tales of the Mad-Men of Gottam, a collection of their jests, was published in the 16th century. Copyright 1994-1999 Encyclopedia Britannica

How Gotham Came to Be a Reference to New York City Washington Irving applied the name to New York in an issue of a humorous magazine named Salmagundi. The name, by Washington Irving's time, had long been associated with stupidity, even though the original story was actually about a kind of twisted cleverness. Washington Irving thought this just the name to give to a city which he believed was inhabited by fools.

None of that really matters. Stop trying to make a WP:POINT. Your edits were reverted by more than one editor, and tendentious editing is not considered WP:CIVIL. You're already using two accounts to pick your fights. Please stop. thank you. ThuranX 23:01, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I beg to differ on one point or two... The etymology of the term is relevnt, as is reinforcing the fact/fiction divide. — J Greb 23:03, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I feel like the original editor was being disruptive, blanking parts of the passage and adding the new information in ways that removed other information or made the passages confusing. J Greb's re-write was clear, succinct and complete. The story of Got-ham doesn't need a lot of page space in this, an article devoted to Gotham City, but that's not to say it shouldn't be there at all. I think J Greb's edit accomplishes this well. ~CS 23:34, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Not sure about all that, but you've written a reasonable compromise that I'm willing to let stand. We'll see if the vandal accepts it. ThuranX 23:27, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Cooperation! Awesome! --Chris Griswold (☎

☓) 23:51, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I feel the architecture bit in the intro should be moved under the architecture tab, the Dennis O'Neil quote moved out of the intro, greater emphasis on the etymology of the term "Gotham" would be nice, and a greater divide between fact and fiction would strengthen the article. However, I am willing to compromise.