Talk:Gore Vidal

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Contents 1 Apology in Esquire 2 Gay novel 3 Ran for Congress 4 2 right wings 5 His name 6 "Do as I advise" 7 HTML comments deletion? 8 Ben-Hur 9 Copyright violation? 10 Vidal's full name 11 Jimmy Trimble picture 12 Political views 13 Second picture 14 Israel Shahak 15 Vidal as an artist 16 Broken Link 17 John *Frank* Kennedy 18 Vidal's homosexuality 19 Edgar Award info 20 Photo 21 Tax resister? 22 9/11 and Alex jones 23 Structuring to remove political life bits from "Writing career" 24 Looking good for his age

[edit] Apology in Esquire

The entry gives the impression that Vidal's apology to Buckley (published in Esquire magazine) was both related to his actions at the debate, and voluntary. In fact, Buckley had filed a libel suit against Vidal, and as part of the settlement, Vidal was required to pay money and issue an apology. The Esquire article was that apology. (A brouhaha recently erupted when Esquire ran its "Best of" issue, and included portions of Vidal's libelous article. Esquire agreed to publish a retraction/correction, and send a copy of the corrections to anyone that requested it.) I think for the sake of clarity, the entry should be corrected to remove any reference to Vidal's apology, or at least clear up that it wasn't voluntary or related to his actions at the debate.

[edit] Gay novel

"openly gay novel "The City and the Pillar" "

The pedant in me says "novels aren't gay, people are gay" -- does this need to be rephrased?

Actually, Vidal doesn't even believe people are gay. He is of the "'homosexual' describes behaviors not people" school. I'll attempt a minor rephrase. - Hieronymous

I'm not sure that Vidal is gay, so much as asexual. He was attracted to another boy during his youth, but nothing came of it. In any case, whether a novel is "gay" doesn't imply anything about the author: plenty of gay writers WRITE straight (Clive Barker) and Mr. Vidal isn't exactly gay.

Correction. Your information is incorrect. After years of vigorous sexual activity, almost solely with other young men, Vidal lived with Howard Austen for almost his entire life. Although they apparently never had sexual relations, Vidal considered Austen his lifelong companion. Vidal claimed that combining sex with a long-term personal relationship was impossible for him, and that his relationship with Howard could never have been sustained that long if they had become sexual partners. You write that he had an attraction to snother boy, but "nothing came of it." The boy was Jimmie Trimble, a fellow classmate of Vidal's at the St. Alban's School for Boys. Trimble and Gore had sexual encounters a few times, but then Trimble was drafted, and was killed in the Battle of Iwo Jima in 1945. Vidal dedicated his novel The Smithsonian Institution to Jimmie. 66.108.4.183 21:36, 3 November 2006 (UTC) Allen Roth

[edit] Ran for Congress

Funny he'd run for Congress in '82 having said in '80 he didn't vote anymore. (United States, p954) (i'm looking for the first time he said the Reps and Dems are two right wings of the same party, I presume that's after '80 =)

[R23] There is no inconsistency. When available candidates differ superficially and represent identical interests, there is no choice. Voting implies consent. Suppose everybody withheld their consent, ie, nobody turned up to vote. That would send the "Property" a party profound message: provide real choices. Candidates at the federal level benefit the underclasses only by accident, not by design.

[edit] 2 right wings

[R23] A reference to the two right wings of the Property party appears in the 1972 essay "Homage to Daniel Shays" found in Vidal's "Collected Essays 1952-1972."

Domhoff accepts the Ferdinand Lundberg formulation that there is only one political party in the United States and that is the Property Party, whose Republican wing tends to be rigid in maintaining the status quo and not given to any accommodation of the poor and the black. Although the Democratic wing shares most of the basic principles (that is to say, money) of the Republicans, its members are often shrewd enough to know that what is too rigid will shatter under stress.

[R23] Ferdinand Lundberg, The Rich and the Super-Rich. 1969

Somehow it should be said that he's a kind of homegrown Chomsky. He says much the same things in much the same way. He may even have said some of them before Chomsky...

[edit] His name

re his name. from New York Review of Books 1973 Oct 18, as "West Point" in United States

[Dad] had no memory for the past, his own or that of the family. He was so vague, in fact, that he was not certain if his middle initial "L" stood for Louis, as he put on my birth certificate, or for Luther. It was Luther. At fourteen I settled the confusion by taking my grandfather's name Gore.

The Luther portion of the name comes from Gore Vidal's paternal grandmother's side, Margaret Ann Rewalt. Her father's first name was Luther and he was a prominant physician in Pennsylvania. --Miguellabrego 18:52, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Do as I advise"

I do wonder if the "do as I advise" quote is used quite as intended. I happened to stumble on a possible original, which is clearly in toungue-in-cheek mode: "...I am at heart a propagandist, a tremendous hater, a tiresome nag, complacently positive that there is not one human problem that could not be solved if people would simply do as I advise." (New Word Writing #10 1956, as "Writing Plays for Television" United States) I thought the thing didn't sound quite like the Vidal I was reading... now I see why. (Not that he's lacking in ego or things to say; but his self-promotion is a lot less smack-in-the-face than this suggests.

I go more his own comment on Tennessee Williams: "self-pity and self-serving kept in exquisite balance by the finest comic style since S. L. Clemens." (US p1134)

[edit] HTML comments deletion?

If I ask why source citations included as HTML comments (so as not to clutter the visible text so badly) were also deleted, would I get an answer?

Apparently not.

[edit] Ben-Hur

re the half-n-half of Ben-Hur: I'm not trying to gussy up "Vidal and Fry wrote Ben-Hur." As Vidal recounts it, his half is the first and Fry's is the second.

[edit] Copyright violation?

I think that the long excerpt from the Times about his house in Italy exceeds "fair use" limits and should either be cropped, rewritten, or deleted. Hayford Peirce 20:20, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Vidal's full name

Vidal's full name is Eugene Luther Gore Vidal. There's no "Jr." His father's name was "Eugene Luther Vidal." (See, e.g., "Palimpsest")

[edit] Jimmy Trimble picture

I seriously doubt if this picture is uncopyrighted or has been released. It is a picture that appears in Vidal's autobiography "Palimpsest". Hayford Peirce 23:59, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

My mistake -- I've just checked my copy of "Palimpsest" and neither picture therein is the same as the one in this article. But I'd still like to know where it comes from.... Hayford Peirce 00:17, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Nope, I was right the first time. I've gone through "Palimpsest" another time, and this time I found the photo that was in the article on page 22. The "Photo Credits" on page 457 of the book says clearly that it is from the "collection of Gore Vidal". As such, Mr. Vidal himself, I'm pretty sure, would have to give Wikipedia specific permission to use it. The editor who inserted this picture gives us no such information, nor any information at all, for that matter. I am, therefore, removing the picture. Too bad -- I gotta say that Jimmy Trimbal is a very cute fellow; I knew a boy at Exeter (which Vidal also attended) who was the spitting image of him. Hopefully my own lightfoot lad is still alive.... Hayford Peirce 00:33, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

:o( Yes, very cute. I don't recall where the image came from. But I got it off the web somewhere. I remember it was easy to find and there were several copies since I initially found it through google images. I certainly didn't scan it in or anything (it would be of far higher quality if I did!), though someone apparently did. Considering he died in '45 that image has to be at least 60 years old. When does this enter public domain?! When Vidal dies? Is this image also in the book [1]? What CAN be used? Ugh, it's beyond purposterous that images of people who've been dead for over half a century can't be freely used. --Deglr6328 09:49, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It's preposterous but, apparently, true. The "fair use" thingee is very difficult to understand but I would think that as long as Vidal is alive he controls all rights to that picture. When he dies it would be his estate, I suppose, assuming that he wills his photo collection to someone in particular. Unless, of course, Vidal himself did *not* take that picture himself and had it given to him by, say, Trimble's sister. In which case it would probably belong the sister or Jimmy's estate or god knows who.... I myself own numerous paintings and sketches by my uncle Waldo Peirce, a semi-celebrated painter, but apparently I can't even take a photo of one of them and post it to the article about him -- his estate still owns the rights to reproductions of his paintings even though those paintings are hanging on my walls. I could, I suppose, try to get the written permission from his three surviving children.... But it's easier just to forget about the whole thing, just as it probably is with the Trimble picture. 17:11, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Political views

Vidal does have rather pronounced politicals views and while touched on, I think a section should be added discussing his "anti-abti-communist" position during the Cold War, his advocacy of isolationism in prep school, and his support of Tim McVeigh.

If you think this relevant, I will add.

I completely disagree. Vidal is foremost a fiction writer and essayist. Why all the discussion of this politics? This should have more about his art. --Griot

I added it mostly because, of late, Vidal's writings have concentrated on politics. AMcalabrese

[edit] Second picture

The more recent photograph of Vidal on this page has no copyright information. It is clearly a copyrighted image--it appears to be an author photo from a book. If someone can make a fair use claim, that would be fine; such a claim would have to specify why this picture rather than any other is necessary to illustrate the article. If not, the image will probably be deleted. Chick Bowen 05:13, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Israel Shahak

Vidal also says that, referring to a revered Jewish figure of the middle ages, that Shahak's book is "...a joy to read on the great Gentile-hating Dr. Maimonides." [citation needed] This book, which argues that Jews themselves are to blame for anti-semitism because of their mistreatment of gentiles, has been largely debunked by scholars with greater expertixe on the subject. The Interpretational Errors of Israel Shahak A review of Jewish History, Jewish Religion Shabbat and Gentile Lives.

The spelling error here, and the word debunked, need to be replaced. Offer insightful criticisms or refutation might read better than "largely debunked" which is not NPOV. There is an article dealing with the book, which contains arguments against its interpretation of scripture which are likely to sway the reader towards the view of the cited scholars. However the assumption that the reader would hold one opinion in higher regard than another is just that, an assumption.

[edit] Vidal as an artist

I have read both Burr and 1876 by Gore Vidal recently. I found Burr to be excellent and 1876 merely adequate. In both, however, I love his interpretations of historical figures and his use of satire. I was looking for an artist who may somehow parallel Vidal in terms of theme or style. I researched but could not find one who did.

Does anyone know of any such artist?

While his style is markedly different from that of Vidal's, I highly recommend to any aficcionado of well-written biography William Manchester's two volumes on Winston Churchill. Sadly, Manchester died before he could complete the third and final volume, and I have been searching since then for a biographer who is his equal.

If I may be so bold as to comment, I believe that what gives Vidal his bitingly ironic style--unusual to a degree when writing historical fiction--is his being gay. Most historical fiction writers--Herman Wouk, for example, an excellent and accurate such writer--take their subject and craft seriously. TOO seriously, Vidal might say. What is missing is humor and irony, which are both a vital part of good observing of historical situations, and the people who play in them. I agree, that Vidal has no equal in this particular dimension of his writing. And I believe that it stems from his being gay (though he would definitely deny this, and deny it wittily), because his perspective is inevitable affected and tinged by the formation of his sensibility through his personal life experiences. We simply don't view the world and its personalities quite the same way as straight people. Not that we have a more accurate point of view. Not at all. Just slightly different; slightly skewed. Note to above writer: You shouldn't be comparing Manchester to Vidal: Manchester is writing history; Vidal historical fiction. A major difference. One strives for accuracy. The other for inspired depiction of a zeitgeist, with the assistance of historical persons and events. That's why I reformulated your comment with other writers of the same genre: Wouk, Uris, Meyer Levin. As for your original question: Who else writes historical fiction in a similar style? I'll give some more thought to that, and see if I come up with any suggestions. But, for superlative examples of writers of historical fiction, there are many suggestions just waiting--Shakespeare (his history plays), Tolstoi, War and Peace, Styron, Confessions of Nat Turner. Plenty of irony there. And much more. 66.108.4.183 02:27, 8 November 2006 (UTC) Allen Roth

[edit] Broken Link

The link to the "Jewish History" article (the very last one) seems to be broken. I'm not sure how to proceed; does someone want to try to fix it, or shall I delete it? BarrettBrown 19:44, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] John *Frank* Kennedy

Someone has written: In his preface, Vidal states that: "(s)ometime in the late 1950s, that world-class gossip and occasional historian John Frank Kennedy told me how, in 1948, Harry S Truman had been pretty much abandoned by everyone when he came to run for president.... I'm pretty sure that this should be John Fitzgerald Kennedy, but, of course, there's a chance I'm wrong. Does anyone know for certain what Vidal wrote at that time? Hayford Peirce 01:04, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vidal's homosexuality

Vidal was a homosexual. Does this or does this not have a place in the article? The tagline was removed by anonymous editer 72.204.9.237 . Again, as it was critical to his work and politics, does it or does it not belong in the first paragraph as: "Eugene Luther Gore Vidal (born October 3, 1925), known simply as Gore Vidal, is a prolific and versatile homosexual American writer of novels, stage plays, screenplays, and essays and has been a public and often controversial figure on both the American literary and political scenes for nearly sixty years."

Amicuspublilius 23:50, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

No, it does not belong in the first paragraph. Vidal is a writer, not a homosexual writer. Sigh. Does the Hemingway article say in the first paragraph that he was "a straight writer"? Later in the Vidal article, it might be mentioned that a number of his works deal with homosexuality and that he has long been a openly declared homosexual. Hayford Peirce 23:56, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I think the article should contain a section about his life as a homosexual man. How did it affect his career when he came out? When did he come out? I recall reading that at one point he wanted to be the President. I imagine that for a man with ambitions like his, being gay must've been difficult. I think this is an important aspect of his life. Copy Editor 16:03, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree 100% -- but not in the first paragraph as "a homosexual writer". Vidal has written a lot about his homosexuality and his political -- "yearnings", I would say, is the correct word, rather than actual realistic "ambitions". His memoir Palimpsest has a lot about this, as do various of his essays and articles over the years. A number of his books are obviously infused by his homosexuality -- others, let's just take Burr as an example, are not, not even a teeny, tiny bit. He is, therefore, a writer who just happens to be a homosexual, rather than a "homosexual writer" who writes about nothing but the homosexual experience. Hayford Peirce 16:25, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Mystery writers are not writers who have written nothing except mysteries, and poets are not writers who have never written prose. The appropriate question isn't about absolutism, but whether homosexuality is a prominent theme in his writing. Cribcage 05:39, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edgar Award info

I didn't want to drop this information into such a well developed article, since there didn't seem to be an obvious spot to put it. But if any regular contributor would like to find a place for it, here it is: In 1955, Vidal was given an Edgar Award by the Mystery Writers of America, in the category Best Episode in a TV Series, for writing the installment "Smoke" for the CBS series Suspense. (I've already added Category:Edgar Award winners to the page.)--ShelfSkewed 05:22, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Photo

Since he is still a living person, is there a more contemporary photo available of him? Even if the current photo remains at the top of the article, I think there still should be one elsewhere from the more modern era. Compare to Bob Hope; he was most famous in the top image, but they still have a photo from 1990, much later in his life. --UNHchabo 02:29, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tax resister?

He's listed in the category "American tax resisters." Now, I know he has written that the income tax is theft, and that he gave a positive review to Edmund Wilson's The Cold War and the Income Tax: A Protest, but is there any evidence that he, personally, does not pay taxes? --Craverguy 01:43, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Does there need to be? It seems to me that you're conceding he's a "tax resister" and asking whether there's evidence that he's a "tax evader." The terms aren't equivalent. Cribcage 05:36, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 9/11 and Alex jones

See it yourself: [2] --Striver 02:54, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Structuring to remove political life bits from "Writing career"

I just added a few headings & subheadings. The first two thirds of what had been called "Writing career" are now broken down into "Fiction" and "Essays and memoirs"; I feel pretty confident about that. The last third of what had been "Writing career" includes a paragraph about his involvement in Democratic Party political life and a paragraph about his cameos in movies & his tireless self-publicity. It was right to break it off from "Writing career," but for now I've crudely labeled it "Vidal in public life." Most of this probably belongs in the following section ("Political views," which perhaps should be renamed to incorporate also political activities), but the show business stuff should probably be treated either parenthetically with Vidal's writing for the cinema, or in a minor section towards the end of the article. Wareh 15:30, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

All right, I've followed my own advice. See the cumulative effect of my redisposition (no new writing) here: diff. Let me make clear that I'm not trying to make a dig by titling a section "Acting and publicity-seeking" — I'm simply reflecting the fact that the article, as I found it, contained a paragraph about acting & publicity-seeking that was not clearly related to the topic of any other section. (My suggestion above about squeezing it into the discussion of his writing for the movies would probably create a convoluted and rambling mess.) Wareh 15:41, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Looking good for his age

Just seen a clip of him here in Havana. -- Beardo 06:13, 13 December 2006 (UTC)