Talk:Gorani (ethnic group)

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[edit] Macedonians or Serbs

So, who are Gorani, Macedonians or Serbs? Kosovo and Metohia is not province of Albania.

The Gorani are Macedonians.

...Gorani are just Gorani, Macedonians and Serbs are nothing more than Slav subdivisions anyhow. It's how they declare themselves in three countries, and how that's how they are. They are not ethnicly different from one another so it's hard to tell. Those in Macedonia may consider themselves Macedonian and those in Kosovo, probably Serbian if they wish. What you cannot have is Gorani saying they are Macedonian if they live in Serbia, or Serbian if they live in Macedonia, because if they were Macedonian when living in Serbia, you'd have Macedonians in Macedonia who are Orthodox, Macedonians in Macedonia who are Muslim, Macedonians in Serbia who are Muslim which means that the Orthodox Slavs of Serbia would also be Macedonian, hence a victory for Macedonian Nationalism as this way they could claim the whole of Serbia, or possibly you can have Gorani Serbs in Macedonia making Orthodox Slavs Serbs in Serbia, Muslim Slavs Serbian in Serbia, Muslim Slavs Serbian in Macedonia, thus Orthodox Slavs also Serbian in Macedonian bla bla bla...Ragusan 26.03.06

Copied from de:Gorani via Babelfish:

Gorani is a Kurdish dialect and province Kermanschah and in the Hewraman mountains of a small group is spoken. This dialect is called sometimes also Hewrami and stands to Zazaki (D?m?li) very near. In this dialect there are the oldest literary documents of the Kurdish language. Many speakers of this dialect belong to the religious grouping Ehl e chop. There are very many religious documents in this dialect is written. Gorani became up to 19. Century used by many Kurds in Iran and Iraq more and more of the Sorani dialect displaces however later. Sorani became supposed by the sunnitischen influences more importantly and thus became this dialect also more strongly. One can see it also completely clear today that Gorani dialect predominantly from Ehl e chop Kurds spoken wird.[bearbeiten ] Writing works The most important writing works are: 874-Seitige Shîrîn u Xusrew from the year 1975 of Xanay Qûbadi (lived 1700-1759). It was published in Bagdad. 789-Seitiger Diwan in 19. Century of the poet Feqe Qadiri Hemewend. The Koran in Gorani in 19. Century of Haci Nuri Eli Ilahi (Nuri Eli Shah).

This is true, which might mean a disambiguation page. Refdoc 00:34, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

What is more "neutral" in that version? I was not even aware of a debate or controversy, yet! Please do not simply revert but use the talk page if you find fault. Refdoc 22:29, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Several things, but if I may ask first, where did you found the information that Gorani is English name of dialect of Serbian which Gorani speak and that Gorani is name for Kurds which speak Gorani dialect of Kurdish? Names for people and their language are rarely same in English. Nikola 21:12, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Well they are often enough the same- German/German, French/French, Italian/Italian, WRT to Gorani (Gora mountains) => official British refugee documentation (of/for and about) You can argue about the correctness, but this does not alter the usage. It is probably the result of being the language of only a couple of 10.000 people and that the '-nski' is pretty much unpronouncable for many British people - at least Home Office officials etc , someone at some stage made it up this way and others accepted it without much questioning and now this is the use. The Kurds - ask Kurds from the Iranian border and if they know Hewramanis/Goranis they should confirm it to you. Google is probably not going to tell you much. Both names are in use: Gorani and Hewrami/Hewramani for all that is verifiable. The defining feature is probably the combination of dialect with being r a small religious minority - Ahl-e Haqq. You can argue whether this is sufficient to make it an ethnic group but that is proabably the same as with the Gora mountain people - defined by remoteness, odd dialect and religiously -> "othered" by their neighbours, ' eventually treated in a hostile manner and finally formed some sort of own identity. Refdoc 01:33, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Date of conversion

The article states that these people converted to islam in the late 18th century. I think it's a bit late, the Ottoman Empire was already weak at that time. They conveted more probably during the 16th and 17th centuries.--Revas 23:53, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

No. Gorani are known for converting to Islam very late. PANONIAN (talk) 16:33, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gorani are Macedonians, Macedonians are Bulgarians

This is probably why a pro-Bulgarian movement has been organized. In the economic and political desperation in Kosovo or among the Kosovo refugees no one should blame them. Well, Serbia is right if it's not happy about the Gorani becoming Bulgarian. In my opinion however, the Gorani in Kosovo, Serbia and FYROM will not gain any efficient support from Bulgaria. In spite of the legends told in Serbia, Bosnia and FYROM, I doubt that the Bulgarian authorities are so easily fooled. The regime of granting passports is tightening each time and the period of waiting for a 'yes' or 'no' now is over three years even for the Bulgarians from Caribrod and Bosilegrad, who are officially recognized by the Serbian state. Besides, Bulgaria has its own Muslims and needs no more of them. This is why the 'Return to Bulgaria' project is active in Ukraine, Moldova and among the Orthodox Macedonians but not in Kosovo, among the Macedonian Torbeši or the Pomaks of Northern Greece. These disputes of who the Gorani are and who has the right on them are in vain and useless. It doesn't matter anymore, especially after 1999, when they fled Kosovo for good. Their overall number is insignificant and their future will depend on their individual choice. As far as I know, most Gorani who fled Kosovo have gone to Serbia proper. In two generations they will assimilate and become Serbs. If they go to FYROM: "Macedonians" or Albanians. If some among them convince the Bulgarian authorities and obtain Bulgarian passports: fine, they will go to Bulgaria or (most likely) will try Germany or Switzerland and become confectioners or café owners, until they obtain German or Swiss citizenship. The fourth group will go to Bosnia and become part of the new Bosniak nation (isn't it strange, with so many nations in such a small country (former SFRY), at least three of them never heard of before 1945!).
And a remark to the article: why doesn't it say anything about the Gorani in Albania? It is there where the "we are Bulgarians" voices are heard most often and listened to in Sofia. 85.11.148.71 08:28, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

First of all, only Bulgarians are Bulgarians. Macedonians and Gorani are not Bulgarians, but only Macedonians and Gorani and nothing else. That is how they declare themselves in censa and that is how they are recognnized in the countries where they live. Regarding Gorani, it is correct that most of them now live in Central Serbia and Vojvodina, and I also agree that something should be written about Gorani who live in Albania. PANONIAN (talk) 14:27, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I thought that Gorans are of Serbian origin... --HolyRomanEmperor 14:21, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, the issue is complicated. They speak Torlakian and Torlakian-Shop dialects are claimed to be Serbian by Serbian linguists and Bulgarian by Bulgarian linguists. The truth is that Torlakian-Shop dialects are in fact separate from both, Serbian and Bulgarian, and represent completelly unique South Slavic form of speech. PANONIAN (talk) 16:56, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes - AFIAC, I barely understood a neighbour of mine (who sells popcorns for living, sadly, ever since he abandoned Kosovo) when I met him for the first time. Call me mad, but I could swear he spoke Albanian when I heard him for the first time! :) It is he who told me that "their" ancestors joined arms with the Armies of Free Balkan Peoples in 1912 by the call of King Peter and that they've lived on Kosovo, tilling the fields ever since. He however, has a rather bad stereotypic view of Albanians. --HolyRomanEmperor 20:45, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

You have some examples of Gorani songs here: http://www.rastko.org.yu/rastko-gora/umetnost/knjizevnost/narodna/hhasani-narodne1987/hhasani-pesme.php Very interesting language indeed. :) PANONIAN (talk) 18:55, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit]  ?

Wait a minute - "Orthodox Slavs" in Serbia that were adherents of the Serbian Orthodox Church - what prevents us from writing "Serbs"? --PaxEquilibrium 20:42, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

A bunch of POV pushers? I'll write that, let's guess how long it will last. Nikola 04:08, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Shortly. First, the classification of "Serbia" in the Gora region in 18th and 19th century is stretched—it belonged to the Ottoman Empire, and was miles away from the Serbian state in rise. Second, I'd like a source to prove that they were a) Orthodox at all (although it doesn't seem disputed) b) cannonically under Serbian Orthodox Church c) wouldn't then Macedonists have a point that they actually were Macedonians. Until WP:RS are presented, the best thing to do is to stick to the neutral terms. Duja 07:47, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, the fact that they were all once Eastern Orthodox isn't disputed. Now, between 1557 (when it was (re)-established by Bajica Sokolovic - Islamized Mahmut Sokullu) and 1766 the Patriarchate of Pec existed as an Orthodox Christian entity, independent in every way. Its Patriarchs wore the prefix "Serb" in their titles, and cannonicle self-proclaimed the continuation of the Serbian Orthodox Church that was abolished a while ago (this organization acted as a more political entity, actually being a "Serbia", since no Serbian state existed and Patriarchs were spiritual and political leaders of the Serbian people - and that was a state that unified all Serbs, but its existence didn't damage/jeoperdize anyone). It included Gora (see the map), but not Macedonia; it included Northern Macedonia, a traditional part of "Old Serbia" that had a very dense Serbian population (or pro-Serb Macedonian Slavs), whereas the majority of Macedonia (Macedonian Slavic-populated) was under the normal juristiction of the "Byzantine" Church in Constantinople.
You should check out Project Rastko - Gora. Its maintained by a Goran himself, doctor Harun Hasani that's currently (and I belive the only one) most famous Goran writer. He's especially for his famous collection "Goranske narodne pesme" in 1987. I don't know if it matters to be noted - but Harun is pro-Serbian orientated: a "Muslim by nationality", a "Goran" and of "Serb origin" (ethnic Serb). The best (currently) thing that you could about the Gorani is this - I suggest you download it, it isn't a large file: Ethnic Identity of Goranies by Academician Dragoslav Antonijević. --PaxEquilibrium 20:48, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

There - they celebrate slava (and all Gorans' slava is Saint George's Day). Does that clarify a little? --PaxEquilibrium 21:46, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

this gives a short history of Gora and the GOrans starting from Byzantine times. --PaxEquilibrium 22:01, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Undoubtfully best is something written by Gorans themselves. --PaxEquilibrium 22:22, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

According to Harun Hassani from his book "The Goranies are the islamized slaveno-serbian population". --PaxEquilibrium 22:29, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Nice. Could we now get rid of the "During Milošević's era in Serbia, they were claimed as Serbs of Muslim faith by the state-controlled media, and consequently used as a pawn in the Serb-Albanian conflict" line? Nikola 22:45, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
They're still (apparently) claimed as Serbs by Serbian nationalists [1] [2]. If you insist, I'll remove the line about "state-controlled media", as I can't find so old citations, but the statement pervades through Goranis' reactions [3] (d'oh, http://www.nasagora.info has removed some old material and now seems useless as a x-link). [4]. Well, weren't they used that way? Duja 10:18, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
No. You are wrong, you know it, and you are systematically pushing your wrong view. Gorani are claimed as Serbs by Serbian nationalists, but they are also claimed as Serbs by those who are not Serbian nationalists, including Gorani researchers themselves. Mr. Sadik's opinion is apparently his own. Yes, they were used that way, but that was the correct way of using them, as they truly are Serbs of Muslim faith. Nikola 20:21, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I've read (most of those). I haven't really disputed their Orthodox origin (just asked for a citation), but the retrofitting of the term "Serb". Duja 10:18, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I've added info about the slava. Is this all enough, Duja, to put that they're of Serb origin into the article? --PaxEquilibrium 10:46, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think so. As pointed out in slava, the custom is not uniquely Serbian, and the conclusion is a non sequitur: since many Balkan Roma people celebrate Saint George's day as a slava, does it follow that Gorani are Roma? Duja 11:03, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I wasn't refering to slava at all - I was refering to the sources like Harun's "..islamized slaveno-serbian population.." --PaxEquilibrium 18:12, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
<shrug> I still fail to see how it can be presented as a blanket statement of fact. While the issues of religious affiliation in the Balkans' past are relatively clearcut, I'm strongly opposed to retrofitting modern ethnic affiliations; believe me, I witnessed too much edit wars on e.g. Macedonia-related articles. Attribution of modern ethnicity to an e.g. 17th century person is a hot topic, let alone entire ethnic group; well, you witnessed the edit wars over Rudjer Boskovic and Mesa Selimovic yourself, while most of the energy wasted in those silly disputes could be used to make the articles about their work and life better. A far better solution would be to include the history from Stojancevic's article [5] and let readers decide. Duja 20:29, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I believe I proposed percisely that. ;) But, if we have a source, I see no reason to put it. e.g. "X claims Y". Besides, doesn't it count that Harun Hassani is a Goran himself (aside from him, only one more Goran writer works/manages the Gora Rastko Project - did you notice him, by the way)? --PaxEquilibrium 20:45, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
<missed the reply> It's certainly OK to put "X claims Y". The fact that Hasani is a Goranac counts in a way, yet the numerous accusations on account of his "Serbophilia" of his compatriots count also :-). (sorry, can't find the sources right now, it was long time ago when I researched the matter). Duja 12:11, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Yeah - it also depends who said that. While the leading administrator of the Gora forum (i've been reading those childlish nationalist posts back there), besides opening various new threads, opened several threads on the Gorani origin, his first claims are the very same "Slaveno-Serbian origin" or simply "Serbs". The (mass of) people who opposed him were either primitives, or very frequently, baring a rather interesting theory. I think that there's more to it if it's an opinion of many - Arab origin. However, we must also take into granted that almost all Bunyevs have received a Croatophobic feeling, especially for that Subotica Vojvodinian dude (forgot his name) who declares as a Croat and claims of Bunyev's Croatian origin (very likely true). A similiar thing is with the Shokci (although the Shokci identity pretty much died out in every sence of the word). A counterpoint are the Krashovani, whereas one Krashovan is a member of the Romanian Rastko branch - however this cannot be applied to this case, since the vast majority all declare as Croats and there are numerious websites, stories, blah, blah, blah - all pointing at their "Croatianess".
Let's start up on the Montenegrins, and we'll soon notice that we're writing a book. ;) Maybe even the Bosniaks or Macedonians. --PaxEquilibrium 10:51, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Talk page

You know, people, the talk page is supposed to be used for resolving edit disputes, and talking in the edit summaries during an edit war is not quite polite wqa. That being said, I agree with Noah that the source only mentions one isolated attack, and does not attribute it to Albanians. The article also contains several questionable statements about Serbization/Albanization of surnames (Serbization in Belgrade is mentioned). While, personally, I do have an impression that Gorani-Albanian relations are far from perfect, better sources are indeed required to back that up or dismiss it. Duja 20:48, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Origin?

Does anybody know whos origin have Gorani? ManiaC 15:40, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

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