Talk:Go opening theory

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[edit] Fuseki or Whole-board Openings

Why was Fuseki renamed to "whole-board opening"? Is "whole-board opening" more ofen used than Fuseki? Actually I think Fuseki might be a better concept. Although we can add "whole-board" in front of "opening" to distinguish it from Joseki, a specific fuseki is still simply called as "xx opening" not "xx whole-board opening". This might cause confusion with joseki, which can also be called as an opening. --Neo-Jay 17:50, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

The phrase "whole board opening" is used only once, and I think there is merit in leaving it there. It is helpful in the sense that it establishes the meaning of Fuseki, and stresses the fact that joseki are corner patterns, whereas fuseki comprise the whole board. I am not sure what you are proposing, either - how would you rewrite the current sentence to maintain the clarity ?

ACH 19:25, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I propose to use "Fuseki", not "opening". We can explain that Fuseki is whole-board opening and put "fuseki" into brackets then link to the main article Fuseki. This can maintain the clarity. If "whole-board opening" is used only once, how could you tell "xx opening" is a fuseki or a joseki? --Neo-Jay 20:37, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, it is not quite correct that fuseki means the same as 'whole-board opening'. Even in Japanese, the opening stage is called joban. Fuseki, as 'scattering of stones', is a description of the distribution of stones around the board.

Secondly, I suppose you can understand the reasons why Japanese-language terms have been used in the past (basically, the Western players learned from Japanese books and teachers). They are not the best to use now, since Go has become almost fully international since 1990. Older go books in English do use many Japanese words, but now we use fewer and fewer. (In fact I have written two such books myself.) It is now much better to use an English-language term, except in case there is no exact translation. Some cases are atari, ko and so on.

Charles Matthews 19:51, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, I certainly object to phrases like Chinese fuseki. To use your own argument, how do you know whether this applies to the whole opening, or just to Black's distribution of stones? Although it is very common when go players are talking, here we are writing for general readers, not go players. That means we should have a better system than Sensei's Library, which is for go players only.

Obviously we can use avalanche corner opening (go), in order to be very helpful to the reader. We all know that joseki is not exactly the same concept as 'corner opening'. It is enough to keep the distinction between 'corner opening' and 'opening' consistent. In fact there are very few corner openings with names, that need to be included there (maybe just three). Everything else can be opening, since that is not likely to confuse anyone except a go player.

Charles Matthews 20:45, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I copy your comments on your talk page and paste it here. I think here is a better place to discuss about this issue. Thank you for your reply. To translate the Japanese term to English might be a good idea. My concern is mainly about how to distinguish Fuseki and Joseki. How do you translate Fuseki? You said: "it is not quite correct that fuseki means the same as 'whole-board opening' ". So, why do you rename Fuseki to "whole-board go opening"? What Japanese wiki page should we link "Whole-board go openings" to? What article do we need to establish for Japanese wiki's "布石"? And how do you translate Joseki? Corner opening? But Joseki can also be applied to Middlegame, not just opening. Thanks. --Neo-Jay 21:07, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I have to say that I agree with Charles, in the sense that "opening" is a broad, if not 100% accurate term that describes what the article is talking about, namely the first moves in the game.

If you are concerned that Joseki are not restricted to opening, then you should probably create something like Corner patterns (go) or Joseki (go) and link it - the same applies to Fuseki. In that respect, it would probably be better not to mention Joseki and Fuseki as alternatives to "whole board opening" and "corner opening" respectively, but just keep the English. One can then explain the exact relationship between them, thus making it clear to a non-go-playing reader, while at the same time keeping the accuracy a Go player would look for.

I hope I have made myself clear, Thanks. ACH 22:35, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

OK. You are clear. I just like to clarify two questions. One: How to translate "Fuseki"? I am confused why Charles says "whole-board go opening" is not quite correct translation but still translate this way. Two, do we need to translate Joseki, and if so, how? Do you mean we establish two articles for both "corner partterns" and "Joseki"? --Neo-Jay 22:53, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm not sure what the correct translation is - my Japanese is non-existent, so I don't dare make something up. I think someone who knows better (Charles ?) should be tasked with this. As for establishing articles - I meant that one has either "corner patterns" or "Joseki" articles, with redirects (and an introduction which points out that they are the same) - that is, assuming that I have translated Joseki correctly as a corner pattern... ?

Also, one can do a similar thing for Fuseki, if necessary (provided we find a good translation)

Thanks ACH 23:54, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. But I have said that Joseki is not only corner opening. It can also be applied in middlegame. That's why I don't think a translation will be a good idea since there is not a good translation yet. --Neo-Jay 00:12, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, given that the Joseki article already has the information that Joseki is not just a "corner opening" (In bold, which I find too strong, but that's beside the point) there is no need to especially reiterate it in this article - this article is just an introduction. However, as I said before, if you think that the way in which it is presented in this article is just too wrong, then instead of having the sentence "...The opening is conceptually divided into the study of sequences that are whole board openings (fuseki) and those that are corner openings (joseki), where each is a series of played moves .... " one could remove the Japanese from this sentence, and follow up with a separate sentence like "Whole-board strategies (openings) are usually referred to with the Japanese term Fuseki (-insert literal translation-), and corner opening with Joseki, though Joseki may refer to any set pattern in any stage of the game."

I'm not sure this is the best sentence, but that kind of thing was what I had in mind. I am just very reticent to confuse a normal reader but using Japanese Go terminology straight away - it is easier to introduce it in the way of "opening", by analogy with chess, and then specify what is different/ particular.

Thanks ACH 08:12, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to start a page go opening terminology to gather up some discussions. This is a normal way here, when the terminology is complicated. Charles Matthews 12:42, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

The discussion regarding the 10x10 is a little confusing. It is unclear whether Honinbo Shusai revieved help from his own student or just another student in the house. The use of Honinbo Shusai's first and last name at different places in the same sentence leads to confusion. -John Hubbard 7/Dec/2006 3:20 MT (GMT -7)