Talk:Glenn Gould

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[edit] The Chair

Seems to me that the chair in the linked photo -while definitely worn through- is not (or doesnt look to be) of the "folding" variety.

Here's a slightly better image: [1]. And here: [2] --194.72.110.12 16:13, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Vocalese

Thanks for "vocalese", which is very interesting. But in this context I had meant "vocalise", which is a classical music term meaning singing without words. I doubt that Gould's singing would merit the term "vocalese"--to me it sounds more like grunting than jazz!

So I propose that the text should read simply "the sound of his voice", which is what I put in the current rendering.

--Opus 33

[edit] Recorded twice

In the booklet of Gould's CD of the Haydn piano sonatas you can read that he had recorded the sonatas in E-flat major Hob. XVI: 49 and Hob. XVI: 52 twice: for the first time in January 1958 and for the second time in February 1981, so the Goldberg Variations are not the only piece he recorded more than once in the studio. In consideration of this fact I changed the article appropriately.

--JensG 22:26, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I seem to be the source of the "only re-recorded piece" comment. I don't recall any more where that information came from - and in any case it does seem as if you have the goods on it being wrong! If I run across the source again, I'll note it here. Noel 05:08, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)
In fact he didnt liked to retake a track he recorded (But not so extreme like shostakovich who even declined to rerecord if he made errors while playing. If you listen to his preludes and fugues there are manny errors hearable). That was maybe the misunderstanding. -- helohe 01:00 26.Mai 2005 (GMT + 1)

[edit] Bibliography

Good idea to sort the bibliography, but aren't scholarly bibliographies normally sorted by last name of author? I'll do this at some point if no one objects. Opus33 15:36, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Actually, what I would find a lot more useful in that list is some commentary on each one. I'd like to learn more about Gould (whom I love - I have most of his Bach recordings), but I don't know where to start in this impressive list! How about a little more info on what's in each one, how good each one is, etc? Noel (talk) 00:55, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I have most of the books on the list and would be happy to add a brief para about each one. But "how good each one is" falls probably outside the wikipedia neutral perspective? --Mariushendrik 04:02, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
So find some reviewer and quote them! :-) Look, I understand your concern, but at the same time even listing the book is a "value judgement". But even if you just give a brief description of what's in the book, etc that would really be a major improvement over just a bald list, and I really think we have an obligation to pass on our knowledge of these sources to readers who are new to the field/subject. Noel (talk) 12:14, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I'll come up with a para on each of the books (or at least the ones I know) over the next few days. I guess they'll be deleted if they don't "fit" :-)--Mariushendrik 22:51, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] "Publications"

I believe the authorship of the line starting with "Tim Page" has to be corrected to "Glenn Gould". Then a sideline could show that Tim Page actually is the editor and compiler, not the author. What do you think?

[edit] Chopin

he was outspoken in his criticism of some of them, apparently not caring for Frederic Chopin, for example.

Any more details about his criticism of Chopin? - Fredrik | talk 21:48, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I've wondered about this too. I found these threads at "F Minor", a mailing list devoted to Glenn: [3] [4] [5] – Pladask 10:13, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)
Hiya, this talk is just bandied about by pianists, somehow it passes down from teachers, I think the word was 'unconvincing', that in Gould's weaker moments he would play Chopin but found it unconvincing. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.254.17.226 (talk • contribs) 07:30, 20 October 2005 (UTC).
Oh well, I see someone remembered this. He also didn't like Mozart and played him rather choppily, like typing, actually lots of kids try to play like Gould because they think he's cool (tormented genius chic) but while it is different it isn't that appealing. I much prefer Vladimir Feltsman's take on the Goldbergs, for example.
Some day Wikipedia should implement a meritocratic system of elitism so that qualified people can write articles and not have them watered down by the mediocre tastes of the self-congratulatory npr crowd. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.254.17.226 (talk • contribs) 07:41, 20 October 2005 (UTC).

[edit] The Glenn Gould Collection

There are currently only hard to find VHS casettes of the "The Glenn Gould Collection" Volumes. Interessting if there will be a reissue on dvd.

[edit] The final frontier?

While reading about the spacecraft Voyager 1, I was pleasantly surprised to find that a recording of Glenn Gould is on the furthest manmade object from Earth! I added a short paragraph mentioning that.

[edit] Thirty-two short films about Glenn Gould

I've moved this comment about Thirty Two Short Films About Glenn Gould to the talk page:

which appealed to the popular desire for tormented geniuses (a reliable formula, used in the films Amadeus, Shine, Pi and A Beautiful Mind ).

This comment is about the movie (or perhaps, even the marketing of the movie), and not about Glenn Gould. So if it needs to be included, it ought to go in the article Thirty Two Short Films About Glenn Gould, not in Glenn Gould. Opus33 15:44, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

  • I would tend to agree - and anyway the passage smacked of non-encyclopaedic writing in that it seemed to establish a POV. Fawcett5 17:23, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Gould as a musician

I've just edited the 'Gould as a musician' section to reflect the fact that overdubbing was, in fact, used in recording a Liszt transcription of Beethoven, not an original Liszt composition (specifically the Finale from Beethoven's Symphony No. 5). Now, given the liner notes to the Glenn Gould Edition album containing this recording - Andrew Kazdin... remembers: "Gould pointed to a place in the Finale and explained that while it was barely imposible to play what Liszt had written, to do so would turn the performance into a don't-complain-if-the-musical-lines-are-a-little-bit-shaky-because-you-should-be-thankful-that-you're-hearing-all-the-notes-in-the- first-place situation. He felt that if he was allowed to use four hands (by electronically overdubbing one performance on top of another), he could make the section more musical. So, in two or three places in the last pages, the astute listener can perhaps detect the results of a four-handed performance." - I don't think it is reasonable to ascribe Gould's use of overdubbing in this instance to his position at the piano. How he sat at the piano would not have influenced his ability to play the final movement of the symphony. I suggest, then, adding a paragraph in the 'Recordings' section outlining his use of technology in his recordings and moving this reference there.

Additionally, the last sentence of 'Gould as a musician' - Despite its shortcomings in Romantic period music, Gould's one-of-a-kind technique yielded excellent results in Baroque period music, especially Bach, (much of it was originally written for the harpsichord) which was the core of his repertoire and the music for which he is remembered. - really needs reworking. I am, I believe, the source of this sentence (or at least part of it). The transparency and clarity of Gould's playing had as much effect, I believe, on his recordings of Brahms, Beethoven, and Mozart as it did on his recordings of Bach. I am therefore going to change this to something like this: Despite its shortcomings in some traditional Romantic repertoire, Gould's unique technique yielded singular results in whatever music Gould applied it to. Often, they offered a fresh, sometimes startling, perspective on much-performed music, such as Brahms' Piano Concerto No. 1. Moreover, the incompatibility of his technique with some Romantic pieces was insiginificant to Gould, because these were almost always pieces which his narrow aesthetic rejected.

Thoughts?

--Tulkas 23:21, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, that's much better than what's there, but I think a) it's questionable to call his technique 'unique' as it was very clearly derived from Guerrero's approach to the piano, b) it's difficult to analyse the 'shortcomings' of his technique when applied to music of which he recorded extremely little (relatively speaking), and c) the overdubbing of certain passages of certain pieces of music does not necessarily demand the conclusion that his technique was inadequate to the music -- surely Glenn would have approached the recording as an art object in its own right, and his attempt to improve the recording by technological means does not necessarily suggest that there was anything 'wrong' with the recording as it was, but only that it was a recording with two hands instead of four. Listening to all of Glenn's recordings together (and without being certain which have overdubs and which do not), his dynamics do not seem to be 'crippled' by his technique. I propose that this entire discussion of his technique's 'shortcomings' can be done away with, and that it is sufficient to describe the technique as objectively as possible.

--194.72.110.12 15:45, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Jewish or Protestant

(See also: The Gold/Gould Myth section below.)

The article states "his Protestant family changed their name to Gould in an attempt to avoid the anti-Semitism of the 1930s", which seems to make no sense whatsoever. I have read sources both stating that Gould was Jewish and also saying that he wasn't Jewish but that people commonly mistake him for a Jew. I will try to find a definitive answer and edit the sentence accordingly, and help with the research is welcome. Yid613 23:37, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

I think the sentence is meant to imply that the Gold family, although Protestant, feared their name would be taken to imply they were Jewish, so they changed it. I agree, though, that it's ambiguous, so I've had a go at rephrasing it. Meanwhile, I too don't know whether or not the Gold family was (is) Protestant, nor even whether they did indeed change their name, so I'm also curious to find out!  Best wishes, David Kernow 07:29, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Although I am aware that the family changed their name from Gold to Gould, I have never, outside this site, come across any suggestion that the family was anything other than Presbyterian, or that Glenn was ever 'mistaken for' a Jew (whatever that means). Some of Glenn's earliest performances were at his local Presbyterian church in Toronto, where he performed as 'Glen Gold' as late as 1938 [6]. Furthermore, Glenn's writing is riddled with references to his protestant upbringing and the 'puritanism' it instilled in him. Given the timing, it seems entirely plausible that the name change resulted from the increased anti-semitism of the time. I'm sure that it would be a mistake to attribute to it any greater significance than this, and I'm sure that Glenn would have found all this intrigue amusing but irrelevant.--86.137.14.158 17:42, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Ok then. I think the current revision is fine then and makes clear what we have said here. Thank you to both of you. Yid613 | Talk 22:15, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

They were actually United Church of Canada. See Robert Fulford's Memoir A Lucky Man.

The change from Gold to Gould makes sense, but why from Glen (one n) to Glenn (2 ns)? Is Glen a typo for Glenn? JackofOz 04:17, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
It makes no sense because Gould is as Jewish a name as Gold.Lestrade 00:57, 2 December 2006 (UTC)Lestrade

Apparently he frequently spelled it both ways -- I've read somewhere (reference, anyone?) that he thought if he went to the second 'n', he wouldn't be able to prevent himself from adding further ones. Perhaps extant examples of his having spelled his name 'Glennn' prove that his fears were founded! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.72.110.12 (talk • contribs) 12:52, 31 August 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Film

Most of the titles and descriptions I took from Cott's book containing the Rolling Stone interview. (I added the book in the Publications section.)

The Gnome 22:17, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sound samples

I've created a "Media" section with a few sound samples in it. Didn't put anything from the 1955 version of Goldberg Variations because most of the pieces are too short and no 30 second fair use sample is possible. I was also planning to add an excerpt from the radio documentary "The Idea of North", but I've got no idea whether that would qualify as a "music sample" (like the added examples do) and so I can't figure out what kind of license to specify. Jashiin 15:31, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] spine injury

Can anyone verify that new section? --Quadalpha 05:36, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Haven't heard this one before. There was that shoulder injury while visiting Steinway in New York, of course, but surely that's not what's alluded to. Curious to know the source for this. --Max Blaze 07:22, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

There's a bit about it in Friedrich's book in Chapter 2 near the middle (a snippet of an interview with Gould's father) but nothing there about prescription drugs... hmmm. --Monk127 07:31, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] photo caption

I removed "in rehearsal" from the caption of the first photo. It was very likely just a quick photo-op in overcoat to appeal to those who like to look at eccentricity, a game Gould seemed to like to play. I know I've read something to this effect about this photo... just can't remember where at the moment. --Monk127 19:50, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Queen Elizabeth II

I am reverting the edit about QEII for the following reasons:

  • This tape was newsworthy when found in 2002; it isn't now.
  • Many studio performances of Gould are available, some on VHS that anyone can buy. This particular CBC studio performance isn't all that "special", is not notable in the life of Gould, and isn't even a performance of a complete work.
  • Glenn Gould, his life and his work, have little to do with Queen Elizabeth II and an encyclopedia article should reflect this.
  • The edit is in an inappropriate place in the article with an inappropriate level of heading.
  • My previous edit, which put a link to the CBC report is sufficient.

Monk127 01:30, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

  • Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, not a news source.
  • The Queen's visit is mentioned because it's how the Gould footage was discovered.
  • Please suggest a better heading, or move the information to a more appropriate location, instead of simply deleting it.
  • Your self-deemed appropriate edit is far from being so. Gould rarely gave live performances. The discovery of footage of him performing live, early in his career, is therefore important, and deserves mention. Deleting relevant information from articles is generally called vandalism. --gbambino 02:15, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi,

I choose not to revert your idiotic monarchist vandalism again.

For the record, I disagree with your edit and my reasons are above. The tape in question is a CBC studio performance, not "live" as you suggest. I presume you mean something to the effect of "in concert". But hey, that's very good that you know something about Gould.

To the Queen,

Monk127 02:36, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Cheerful.
If you watch the actual CBC video about the discovery of the Gould footage, you'll clearly hear them refer to it as a "live performance." The discovery of the footage is linked to a visit by the Queen. If that kindles some kind of anti-monarchy rage you harbour, well, hey, them's the breaks.
But thanks for dealing with it, and graciously allowing me to edit what you clearly feel to be your personal Gould article. You're a big man, indeed. --gbambino 02:54, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Gold/Gould Myth

The article included a claim that "Gould was born Glen Gold" and that his family "changed its name ... fearing that it would otherwise be mistaken as Jewish ..." This kind of speculation shows up all too often in many places ([7], [8], [9] are just a few), even in Peter Ostwald's psychoanalytic quasi-biography of Gould.

There was no such name change. In fact, Glenn Gould's parents were Russell Herbert ("Bert") Gould and Florence ("Flora") Emma Grieg Gould, Presbyterians of Scottish extraction. I have corrected the paragraph accordingly, with an embedded comment referring to this talk page section. Reference: Otto Friedrich, Glenn Gould: A Life and Variations (Vintage Books, a division of Random House, New York, 1989), pp. 13-14. Friedrich provided considerable detail; here is just a scrap:

  • Peter Grieg, one of thirteen children of a Scottish farmer, emigrated to Canada in the mid-nineteenth century. He and his wife, Emma, had ten children, one of whom was Charles Holman Greig, who married Mary Catherine Flett, whose father, a carpenter from the Orkneys, died in a fall from the roof of the Bank of Montreal. One of their children, Florence, duly met and married Russell Herbert Gould, whose father's business card said: "Thomas G. Gould, Fur Salon, Designers and Manufacturers of Quality Fur Garments." Bert Gould inherited and managed that prosperous fur business. His wife was forty-two when their only son was born. But even before he was born, according to her niece, Jessie Grieg, "she did play music all the time she was carrying Glenn, with the hope that he was going to be a classical pianist." [emphasis added]

In the context of the apparent popularity of the belief in the mythical Gold/Gould name change, it should be noted that if antisemitism was a problem the name Gould was itself quite enough to attract it—compare similar but more openly hostile nineteenth century speculation remarked upon in the Jay Gould article:

  • Contrary to the assumptions of Henry Ford and Henry Adams, who presumed Gould to be a Jew, Gould's father was of British colonial ancestry, and his mother of Scottish ancestry .... Anti-semitism in connection with Gould's name motivated some of this hostility, even though he was born a Presbyterian and married an Episcopalian. [emphasis added]

In addition to how problematic and harmful speculation can be, and how peculiarly inappropriate it is in an encyclopedia article, the Presbyterian/Scottish connection has gone unnoticed here as well. Of the many names on the list of those with the surname Gould, I would not be surprised if far more than half have Scots/British ancestral roots. Athænara ✉ 00:15, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

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