Talk:Gladiator (Shi'ar)
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[edit] Superboy or Superman?
While Gladiator served as Superboy's LSH counterpart in the Shi'ar Imperial guard, He was modeled after Superman. Example of this can be seen by Xenith, an Supergirl counterpart who is younger than him and is his cousin. Marvel created him as an adult version of Superboy, which is Superman. To use an analogy, it is impossible for a female character to be modeled after Superman and not Supergirl. T-1000 06:57, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
By that same logic, a pastiche of Legion members could never include Superman because Superman was not a member. Superboy was. CovenantD 15:34, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
- I already addressed this. Just because Gladiator served the same role as LSH's Superboy does not mean he is modeled after the character. He is adult version of Superboy, but we have a term for an "adult version of superboy", Superman. T-1000 16:47, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
- We need to get a third opinion, because I find your logic flawed. The entire IG were created as adults; that in no way invalidates their connection to and inspiration by the teen-aged Legion of Super-Heroes. CovenantD 16:57, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
- You are treating the LSH Superboy as a separate character from Superman, which is incorrect. The LSH Superboy will become an adult and become Superman. Since Gladiator is already an adult, that makes him modeled after Superman. T-1000 18:53, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Oh yeah, your logic is flawed. CovenantD 19:28, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
- a meaningless statement. T-1000 19:32, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Are they any direct statements that Gladiator is modeled after Kal-EL (be it Superman or Superboy?) I have always assumed that he was modeled after Mon-El.
[edit] Clean-Up
The text has been trimmed to a far more succinct version, with the "tell the story" aspects; assumptions and bias removed. Unfortunately the old version read like something a fan would write, and while colourful was not objective. Added some sub-headings to break up the text and included a new image, which is very clear and lacks word balloons. The old image is not suitable as the first question is: who is he talking to? Added a reference on Gladiator's weakness to radiation, and will source a few more so that some of those statements can be supported.
Asgardian 02:47, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
CovenantD's revert is pointless as it allows for dead links, assumptions, bias and verbose text in general. Not appropriate and done without thinking.
Asgardian 03:48, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
- Thre is no assumption and bias in the article. All of Gladiator's abilties are documented in scans in the respect Gladiator link, the comic scans are a reliable source. Also, your new image cannot be used, it is from the Offical Marvel Handbook and thus a violation of copyright. T-1000 06:03, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
See all my comments above. The Powers and Abilities section is a mass of wild and unsupported claims. Everything much be sourced. As for the image, it can be replaced, but NOT with something with a caption and dialogue to someone off panel. That creates just more questions.
Asgardian 06:31, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
- They are sourced, that's why the respect Gladiator link is there, read it and look at the Scans. T-1000 06:33, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
- You need cited references, not often subjective scans, which clutter the entry anyway. By the by, CovenantD is right - a message board is NOT a reliable source as EVERYTHING is opinion. The new version of the entry is more objective and reads less like a fan's page.
Asgardian 06:49, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
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- Your statements are self-contridictory. First you dismiss opinions as not valid. You then used your own opinion without valid reasoning to remove large amount of text. The only reason to remove the materials are the lack of references, a problem which is just fixed. The article is not marked as long, and there are far longer article than this one. Removing large amounts of text based on your opinion are considered vandalism. T-1000 08:45, 21
October 2006 (UTC)
Not really. The entry is verbose in that it is overly wordy and has far too much of a "tell the story" aspect to it. All the information is still in the new version - simply in a more succinct form. A few things have also been added. Once again, the entry cannot look like it was written for a fan site, which it currently does. A link to a message board only confirms this.
Asgardian 09:38, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
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- We do need a few examples of Gladiator using his powers, and your image is still not properly sourced. I will not revert, rewrite some parts of it. Use of semi-colons now corrected. Speech removed from SHB pic. T-1000 20:15, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] succinct
As dozens of people (dozens? Who? Anyway, I wrote most of that article and it stuck) has told you on the Thor page, "succinct" is not a reason to omit accurate info (on the contrary, succinctness is a must. The entries are not fan sites. All the information - plus some omitted extras - are still there. Read it.) Image is not properly sourced. There is no such image in the link. T-1000 01:58, 28 October 2006 (UTC) (Fixed. Much better than the image with empty word balloons).
Asgardian 02:13, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- First of all, don't insert your remarks into my posts, as people have already told you. Second, the succinct posts are on the midway of the Thor talk page. Third, according to Wikipedia Guidelines, this article is not overly long, if you disregard guidelines, you will be blocked. Fourth, what is "succint" or not is your independent analysis, Original research, is not allowed here. Fifth, your image does not allow a good look at Gladiator's custome, which is one of the requirements for a main image. T-1000 02:19, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
As CovenantD has stated, your logic is flawed. There is a great deal of POV and idolising happening here. Again, this is not a fan site. Your version has a choppy image, dead links and meanders considerably, not to mention all the irrelevant and aforementioned assumptions in the end sections. Other characters do not have such lengthy passages devoted to such similarities. It smacks of fan worship. Sorry, revert.
Asgardian 02:31, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- First off, your first statement is a red herring, that is a completely different discussion. Second, What you think does not matter, you must follow standards. if everybody can omit large amounts of content based on what they think as "succinct" then Wikipedia would be in chaos. The article is less than 30 kb long, and does not have a length problem. What you think as "fan-like" or not is irrlevant and OR, which is not allowed here. As I said before, you must follow standards and guildlines. I assume good faith, but if you insist on edit warring, you will get yourself blocked. T-1000 03:45, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- Also, your new image is still not properly sourced, there is no such image at the forum. T-1000 03:49, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] The paragragh in question
As the Shi'ar Imperial Guard are based on the Legion of Super-Heroes, Gladiator is an analogue of Superboy and Superman, having a number of similar powers. He has a cousin (Xenith), who is a Supergirl analogue. He has one special weakness (an unknown form of radiation), which mirrors Superman's weakness to kryptonite. His costume also shares a similar theme with Superman. Another similarity is that, Gladiator's race is Strontian, which is based off the element Strontium, just like Superman's Kryptonian race is named off the element Krypton. The codename "Gladiator" a reference to the 1930 Philip Gordon Wylie novel--Gladiator--which is thought to have served as one of the inspirations for the creators of Superman. Gladiator's real name, Kallark, is also a pastiche of superman’s Kryptonian name Kal-El and his earth name Clark Kent.
Setence by setence:
1. As the Shi'ar Imperial Guard are based on the Legion of Super-Heroes, Gladiator is an analogue of Superboy and Superman, having a number of similar powers.
- This is a [b]fact[/b]. Chris Claremont was working on Legion of Superheroes when he switch over to working on X-men.
And quite appropriate for the Imperial Guard page!
2. He has a cousin (Xenith), who is a Supergirl analogue.
- This is also a fact. He does have a cousin.
Fine, but a mention of a relative in the SHB is all that is needed. The entry is not about family members.
3. He has one special weakness (an unknown form of radiation), which mirrors Superman's weakness to kryptonite.
- This is a fact backed up by Hulk Annual 1997.
And cited in the references. No problem there.
4. His costume also shares a similar theme with Superman.
- This is a fact. Both customes are composed of Red, Blue, and Gold.
True, but not relevant. Skrulls are green like the Hulk, as is Gamora. Are they mentioned in the Hulk's entry?
5. Another similarity is that, Gladiator's race is Strontian, which is based off the element Strontium, just like Superman's Kryptonian race is named off the element Krypton.
- This is a fact. Krypon is based on the element Krypton, and stronian is based upon the character strontium.
Gladiator might be Strontian, but Superman's origin is irrelevant here as the entry is not about Superman. There is also no reference.
6. The codename "Gladiator" a reference to the 1930 Philip Gordon Wylie novel--Gladiator--which is thought to have served as one of the inspirations for the creators of Superman.
Superman, not Gladiator, and the "is thought" part of the sentence means it is not a fact.
- This is a fact. The novel and the codename, and the influence on Superman are verifiable.
Superman, not Gladiator. See above.
7. Gladiator's real name, Kallark, is also a pastiche of superman’s Kryptonian name Kal-El and his earth name Clark Kent.
- This is a fact. KAL + Clark = Kallark.
Mentioned in Trivia.
As you can see, there is no idolizing or Point of view in the paragraph at all. T-1000 04:06, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Actually, there is quite a great deal of unsubstantiated POV. Why not now help with the references for the main text? It must all be sourced.
[edit] Also
The red links are not "dead links", they are places for people to start articles. This is normal. T-1000 17:36, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] source
The article referencing Gladiator's influences on Superman is here: [1]
[edit] Response
- First off, don't insert your points underneath mine, and don't use the bold font. You admitted that the Paragraph contain facts. You must recongize what you are doing wrong. Removing facts from an article based on an editor personal opinion is a violation of non-NPOV policy. you must follow the policies. Also, an image containing two character cannot be used as the main image, per image guideline. Not everyone can tell the difference between Thor and Gladiator. From WP:OR, "Original research excludes editors' personal views; political opinions; and any personal analysis or synthesis of published material that appears to advance a position the editor may hold." You cannot remove facts because of your personal views. Another thing, use of heading 2 is against formatting standards. T-1000 04:19, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Now, the main points:
And quite appropriate for the Imperial Guard page!
Fine, but a mention of a relative in the SHB is all that is needed. The entry is not about family members.
- The SHB does not mention relatives, it was disabled a long time ago
True, but not relevant. Skrulls are green like the Hulk, as is Gamora. Are they mentioned in the Hulk's entry?
- because Gladiator's creators intentionally made him to resemble Superman, while the Skrull/Hulk is a coincidences.
Gladiator might be Strontian, but Superman's origin is irrelevant here as the entry is not about Superman. There is also no reference.
- The fact that the race of Gladiator and Superman is named after a element is a similarity between Superman and Gladiator, which is the point of the section.
Superman, not Gladiator, and the "is thought" part of the sentence means it is not a fact.
- Read the link.
Superman, not Gladiator. See above.
- The relationship of the codename Gladiator and Superman is a fact. Hugo Danner sharing the same name as Kallark is also a fact.
Mentioned in Trivia.
- Per the disscusion at WP:TRIVIA and Superman, trivia sections should be removed.
Actually, there is quite a great deal of unsubstantiated POV. Why not now help with the references for the main text? It must all be sourced.
- The reasons for your edits are the only POV thing here. T-1000 05:07, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
You cannot even see that the image is not appropriate for use and why? Are there any other characters that have blotted out word balloons coming out of their mouths?
Asgardian 09:25, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- You failed to address any of my points above. You are removing facts because of your opinion. The image guideline does not say anything about talk ballons. However, Images with two character cannot be used as the main image. Not everybody can tell the difference between Gladiator and Thor. Word ballons are fine, other character use them also (Graydon Creed). All we need is a full frontal profile. You must follow standards, otherwise you will be blocked.T-1000 18:02, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
It's Thor's title - there's a letterbox image of him in the top left hand corner AND another image of Gladiator further down the page. Also, blank word balloons? Old version still cluttered and POV. Take the Legion info to the Imperial Guard page.
Asgardian 21:46, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
What you COULD do if you really like that image is to use Photoshop and blank out the background. A little bigger, and it's there.
Asgardian 00:22, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Main image
Regarding the controversy over which image to use as the main image for the article, neither image seems ideal. The solo image has those pesky word balloons and is from a slighty unusual perspective. The Thor cover, though exciting, doesn't unambiguously show the subject. Does anyone have another image? --GentlemanGhost 08:33, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Juggernaut bitch
He was in the internet movie right? I think at the end... --208.186.134.103 06:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
