User talk:Gilgamesh

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[edit] Cookies.

Just tried your cookies - absolutely amazing, thanks for the recipe! Go add them to wikibooks:Cookbook :) Nippoo 20:40, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Response.

I don't see why you'd think of them as oyaji. Regardless, I don't quite feel like arguing about whether or not Bowser is a yaoi beefcake furry icon, but it doesn't matter on Wikipedia. - A Link to the Past (talk) 02:24, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Sure it matters. Wikipedia isn't Nintendo Power. It isn't a press release center. It's an orthodox article repository, and how a topic is received by its fans is equally worth documenting as the topic itself. And it doesn't matter if the intended target audience of the topic is children, and a huge fan base are gay or beefcake artists. It's relevant, and Wikipedia does not practice censorship. - Gilgamesh 03:51, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Actually, you made a good point about the Cowboy Bebop argument. Let's meet our points halfway, shall we? A brief mention of Bowser's popularity in fan material by fans young and old, without necessarily a mention of his sex symbol status. That kind of detail can be left in articles that address those issues, and can be found by encyclopedia readers interested enough in them to learn more. - Gilgamesh 04:27, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Biblical Hebrew transliterations

What's your source for the Biblical Hebrew transliterations on Hebrew alphabet? Biblical Hebrew language disagrees with them on many points, and it gives a source. —Simetrical (talk) 22:07, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

It's been a while since I edited that article. But I think you're talking about the Tiberian vocalization. - Gilgamesh 01:57, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Wouldn't an academic reconstruction be more suited to the article than an oral tradition that was quite probably, from what we know about language, heavily corrupted? —Simetrical (talk) 03:16, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

It is academic. It has the greatest detail of the most ancient firmly-attested transliteration systems. Many older clues exist, particularly where words were loaned into other languages such as Greek and Arabic, and what is known about closely related languages like Moabite, Punic and Ugaritic, but some of the finer details are speculative. Tiberian is clearly established and probably the best academic balance between age and lack of controversy. - Gilgamesh 03:55, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

The Wikipedia article definitely seems to indicate that it's an oral tradition representing a specific local pronunciation, not any kind of academic reconstruction. —Simetrical (talk) 21:59, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, it's a very special oral tradition. It was the one used for the Masoretes. - Gilgamesh 00:06, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

The fact is, though, language changes over time. This is always true. No oral tradition will preserve pronunciation over a millennium. The Masoretes were special, yes, but only due to their effect on Hebrew, not due to their special knowledge of Hebrew. —Simetrical (talk) 06:07, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Find an older pronunciation scheme that can be empirically attested and not outrage Haredi Wikipedians as much as I've done. - Gilgamesh 07:17, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Interesting. Since your discussion is continuing and no longer concerns what Gilgamesh had in mind personally, I invite you both to continue publicly at "Talk:Hebrew alphabet". I'm placing additional comments there. --Hoziron 00:02, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Okay, responses posted there. —Simetrical (talk) 05:32, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Wikipedian linguists recategorization

The user categorisation scheme for linguistics has changed. Henceforth there are separate categories for Wikipedians who are professional linguists (Category:Wikipedians by profession→Wikipedian linguists) and Wikipedians who simply have an interest in linguistics (Category:Wikipedians by fields of interest→Wikipedians interested in linguistics). You are currently listed under the former category; please reassign yourself if necessary. —Psychonaut 17:09, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Category:LGBT computer and video games

I wanted to invite you to contribute at Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion#Category:LGBT_computer_and_video_games, since you posted on it's talk page. Thanks for your time. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 19:20, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bikini

Hi, can you provide some evidence for the word Bikini being seen as offensive by some people, perhaps a newspaper article? I'm not sure it is valid to substitute two piece at the top just because it offends a small minority otherwise we would be changing things all over Wikipedia in order not to offend any group of people. Thanks Arniep 19:46, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, forgot about this. Well, to be honest, it doesn't get a whole lot of coverage, but everyone I know who knows about the history of bikini, Bikini Atoll and Castle Bravo find this use of a nuclear event utterly tasteless and despicable, like turning a murder into a murder-rape. However, I can't provide sources for this (I never imagined I'd need sources when the facts seem so plain and evident), I won't oppose its removal pending established external sources. - Gilgamesh 13:22, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Some article moves

I noticed that you moved some Israeli locale articles, notably Arad and Sha'ab, to names with a symbol. I have all language scripts installed (using WindowsXP), and still see an ugly square in the place of that character. Viewing the pages with UTF-8. What is the character, and can we replace it with one that is universally accepted for Hebrew transliterations, like the apostrophe? Also, a Google test shows that your transliteration of Kfar Sirkin (Kefar Syrkin) returns very few results, none of which are actually related to the village. I'll probably move it back later. Please get back to me with your thoughts. -- Ynhockey || Talk 11:01, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Edit: I've checked the issue with other browser and it seems that Opera displays the character correctly, but not in all instances. I still think it should be changed to an apostrophe though - so everyone can see it for sure, plus, doesn't Wikipedia have a policy that article names should be made according to the most commonly used name rather than the correct transliteration? If I find the policy page, I'll post a link. -- Ynhockey || Talk 11:26, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

OK, I've found it, the policy is here and a summary can be found here. -- Ynhockey || Talk 11:31, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

I wasn't really aware of the "use English words" policy, but I won't dispute it. As for the characters in the articles themselves, if I recall, it's a MSIE issue where the browser chooses the first available font, but will try to show all the characters in the text in that font, whether or not the characters are available in that font. Opera and Mozilla-based browsers go down the list for every single text character for a fuller display that uses mixed fonts when necessary. When Wikipedia started assigned default fonts, I foresaw this effect immediately, but I decided that, for a reusable database that Wikipedia is, I shouldn't "fix" the text by breaking its Unicode diversity just to conform with one or two Windows fonts as they display on MSIE—that would be POV. It would be better for Wikipedia to assign no fonts anywhere. This way, even MSIE (bewilderingly and in no other situations) does the same per-character font assignment technique that Opera and Mozilla use. - Gilgamesh 19:56, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Transliteration of Israeli city name

We've been through this a year ago, but I think it's time for another discussion. Please take a look at Talk:Naẓerat ʻIllit

  • On a slightly different tack, I added 4 columns so that it would be simple to see which cities don't (yet) have names in Arabic in Wiki. Could you supply some of the missing names? The basic reason for my tabularizing (?) the list was so that both forms of a city's name - the way it appears in newspapers and the web, and the way it appears in Encarta or Google:Earth could be side-by-aside for easy reference. Your additions to the "Gazeteer's" column would also be welcome D'n 06:08, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hebrew naming conventions

Urgent: see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Hebrew) to add your opinions about this important matter. Thank you. IZAK 17:29, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bot making changes

You may eventually see this on pages you are working on, but User:Curpsbot-unicodify is a "bot" that is changing the glottal stops back to the single quote (') character. I have asked him to stop, but it may take more than me to have an impact and I know you were very concerned at one time that this not be done - Marshman 19:04, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Easy. Instead of using ‘ as you insisted, we use ʻ, which in Unicode is actually classified as a letter and was specifically designed for both Hawaiian and the transliteration of Semitic languages like Hebrew and Arabic. Sorry, but I have to agree—‘ is simply not proper anymore for Hawaiian, regardless of whether it's displayable in the typical MSIE browser. The solution is probably to use the {{Unicode|template}} or similarly designed templates, which—as I understand it—either assigns appropriate system fonts for the task, or (as with the Unicode template) turns off all specifically-assigned fonts so that even a browser like IE will scour the system looking for available fonts that support the characters shown. The Office font Arial Unicode MS supports ʻ and ʼ. - Gilgamesh 07:19, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Whatever change was made by Curpbot, it appears to be assigning a readible, and I assume, correct character now. What should we use when we write articles? None of the suggestions you make here produce a readible character (just boxes) which is far worse than a simple single quote. The Curpbot coding is not evident in edit mode, so we are forced to use either ' or &lsquo ; when producing text. Or is the correct item included in the insert list at the bottom of the edit mode page ? - Marshman 18:13, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

The bot is adding this (‘) for an ‘okina. I'm not getting any information on what it is or if it is correct, but it does appear correct to me - Marshman 02:36, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Please halt your changes to Hebrew names

Dear Gilgamesh: You are at it again! Stop your confusing changes to Hebrew names without consultations, such as at Hadera, Safed and others. I will revert all of them. IZAK 03:01, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I already stopped a few days ago when someone else asked. - Gilgamesh 08:27, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I suggest you participate in the discussion on naming conventions. You have previously played a large role in the transliteration of Hebrew names. JFW | T@lk 12:48, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Already there as of a day or two ago. I had no idea this subject had so much interest—I assumed it would go in the Hebrew languages WikiProject I set up precisely for discussion such as these. But no one had spoken about it for a very long time. - Gilgamesh 13:15, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Article moves

Hi Gilgamesh

I have a number of articles on Israeli settlements on my watchlist. Several of them (notable Har Homa and Beitar Illit) have just upped and offed to new, barely recognisable locations: to wit, Har []oma and Beitar []illit (i.e. I get square boxes instead of characters as the first letter). This is extremely offputting. Do you think there is any way that these articles copuld use characters that will display normally on most computers, and if necessary confine problematic characters to a once-off "scientific transliteration"? I feel this would also be in the spirit, and probably the letter, of Wikipedia:Use English. Best, Palmiro | Talk 16:50, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

This has already been discussed here. I was first asked top stop days ago, and I did. Considering the newfound interest in this subject, I decided to yield and wait for concensus, and some of the article names have already been moved back. As for the displayable of characters, I tend not to think of it as my concern—it is the responsibility of the user, the browser and the operating environment to display the fonts. My concern is only the accuracy of the data and the use of proper Unicode—that's precisely what Unicode character spaces are set up for. - Gilgamesh 19:28, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
Gilgamesh: Is "Unicode" the new "holy grail"? Most people using the Internet have no idea what the heck "Unicode" is or what in heaven's name the many other digital "bells and whistles" are that you love to use, and as you can see, it tends to cause others more frustration than happiness. IZAK 03:39, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
I'll reply if you respond in a matter that is not condescending to me as a person. - Gilgamesh 09:42, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Templates

I just accidentally deleted one of your redirects to the new templates you have set up. Before I put it back, could you please explain to me what these new templates are for? They look a bit strange. Deb 14:32, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Go ahead and delete all the redirects. Since a few months ago, Wikipedia started mangling Hebrew niqqud dots so that, even when entered correctly by the editor, they appear mangled on page. However, since I started using templates to indicate each niqqud symbol instead, they always appear properly in Wikipedia edits. When each template is assigned by name, it's quick and easy for the editor to type the templates one after another as needed, and none of them display mangled. - Gilgamesh 14:35, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Templates

Hi. I saw that you had created Template:Hbrsindot and Template:Hbrshindot. Both of them seemed empty to me, so I added {{empty}} tags to them. Maybe you could tell me what you had in mind with these templates.--May the Force be with you! Shreshth91($ |-| r 3 $ |-| t |-|) 14:48, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Read above. They are not empty—they contain a single Hebrew Unicode character each. In the case of those two templates, they show a single dot, which appears as a simple black pixel on the screen. They are intended to be used in inline text.
Thanks for that. They were so small that I didn't even notice them. I'll be more careful in the future.--May the Force be with you! Shreshth91($ |-| r 3 $ |-| t |-|) 15:11, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

I can see the okina laid down by the okina template. Is that now the correct "symbol" ? - Marshman 04:28, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes it is. It is used by the Hawaiian Wikipedia too. However, because it is a template, it can be negotiated. - Gilgamesh 05:03, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Seems like an excellent approach. While the Curpsbot was adding something that did appear as an 'okina (not a square box), I could not determine what it was adding or how to add it myself as an editor. - Marshman 19:38, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm incredibly happy with the approach. ^_^ Not only is it easy to enter (using nine English keystrokes a pop), but if we decide that the Unicode character (which is classified as a letter, not as punctuation) is not yet appropriate, then it can be changed into something else temporarily until most browsing environments catch up. However, I would personally vote to just let it the way it is for now, as how it is set up now already scours the user's installed fonts for any font with the character in it. Arial Unicode MS, Code2000, Thryomanes and other Unicode fonts support it. - Gilgamesh 19:45, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Wait

I don't want to sound accusative, but please check this page, as well as Google, for correct Israeli town spellings. For most, that one page should be your source, but some (like Yeroham) aren't widely-accepted, so Google is better. But please don't move to just something that sounds simple or whatever. Again, don't want to sound accusative, but with your recent bunch of redirects, it's becoming increasingly difficult to move these articles to their right destinations (which is the reason I'm not doing it). So, if you want to use the correct name, please try to do it right the first time. -- Ynhockey 18:47, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Thank you, it is much appreciated. ^_^ Besides, I didn't make the Yeroham redirect to begin with. :3 Also, the problem I've often run into is that even when there is a dry on-paper spelling used in official documents, Israeli Wikipedia users have often complained that it's never how they spell it in English, etc. So I try to rely on the spellings used by the municipality's homepage, etc. - Gilgamesh
Case in point, I've been chided before for trying to move Eilat, Israel to "Elat", and for changing names with "Kfar" to "Kefar" (some have been reverted) and Kiryat Arba to "Qiryat Arba" (which I still think is correct, but I ran into fierce opposition). This has turned out to be a lot more complicated with higher passions than I thought, and I'd rather not start more revert wars. - Gilgamesh 19:22, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Yeah it can happen sometimes. I think it's pretty hard for someone not fluent specifically in Israeli Hebrew to know the correct spelling by intuition. But as I said, a Google test is the best way to find out if you're unsure the official spelling will work. I mean, in Israeli Hebrew, Eilat's i is pronounced clearly, sort of like Eylat. Same with other cases. Anyway, I'll just move some of those articles to more proper spellings myself then. I know some users might give you trouble over your moves, but don't take it personally :) -- Ynhockey 11:53, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Izak

Well, it seems like I've had similar problems to you with user Izak. See the discussion page for Red_string_(Kabbalah). Izak is certainly persistant- I'll give him that. I think I have to take some (half?) the blame for the pointless flame war we had, which seemed to end up with both of us upsetting the other. I'd be interested to hear your opinions. Respond on my talk page - or by email (christianjburnham@@@gmail.com, with only one @). If Izak reads this- well good, but I'm exhausted by being accused of all sorts of bad things. Christianjb 13:36, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

By the way- your usr page opinions are ludicrous! Everyone on this planet has suddenly gone crazy except me. That's why I'm proclaiming myself president of the world. Christianjb 13:43, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Is there a good reason for all these templates with unpronouncable names? DJ Clayworth 21:49, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, a very good reason. They are names of niqqud. The problem is...many people cannot agree how to spell the niqqud names (e.g. nequddoth, nekuddot, nekudot, niqqud, nikkud, nikud, etc.), and some people will even say "That's now how you spell it! Here's how you spell it..." So, having multiple possible names for the same template allows an average Israeli or Hebrew scholar to input the niqqud name spelling of their choice, and have it confidently appear as they expect, whether they choose "qames", "qamez", "qamaz", "qamats", "kamatz", ... Got it? ^_^ - Gilgamesh 21:52, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
OK. Don't tell everyone about them, or people will be asking for a template to switch between Danzig/Gdansk. DJ Clayworth 22:48, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
That's just ridiculous. You just use the contemporary name of whatever the time period was. Just look at Viborg, Viipuri and Vyborg. - Gilgamesh 06:14, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Templates?

What's with all the crazy useless templates you're creating? --Oscarthecat 21:56, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Read up a bit, I explained. Templates like these are used in Hebrew linguistics articles to work around the problem of Wikipedia mangling niqqud (List of Hebrew names, List of traditional Hebrew place names, and brief mention in various articles with Hebrew names, etc.). And having different names for the templates accommodates all the different people (Israelis, other Israelis, Hebrew scholars, etc.) who not only cannot agree on how to spell the niqqud names, but also sometimes insist that their spelling is right and other spellings are wrong. Trust me...that gets tiresome after a while. This is the lesser of multiple evils. - Gilgamesh 21:59, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Sorry to break the news to you, but one of your templates is a "n." Someone may request deletion if you don't add something else (don't worry I am not, because I know you are working on them, someone else may). At any rate, good luck! Take care, εγκυκλοπαίδεια*(talk) 22:46, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Can you point me to which template is "n."? - Gilgamesh 22:48, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

By the way, the Hebrew letter צ and its final form ץ not only have two forms depending on position, but the letter has the most actively-used spelling variations of any Hebrew letter. In various places I've encountered:

  • sadhe
  • sadhi
  • zadhe
  • zadhi
  • zade
  • zadi
  • tsade
  • tsadi
  • tzade
  • tzadi

And even ideosyncratic variations like "tzoddi". If everyone could agree on one spelling, that would be very nice. Until then...lots of template redirects make sense. - Gilgamesh 23:33, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] pls unblock me

i have more than 3000 edits, see "user contributions" - i was blocked for no reason. User:Haham hanuka

I'm not an admin. - Gilgamesh 21:33, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
LOL,you two... --Procrastinating@talk2me 14:56, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cookies

Have you ever added your cookie recipe to wikibooks:Cookbook? I recently discovered it myself, and found it pretty awesome. The more people that have access to great cookie recipes the better, I say. --Zytsef 13:35, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hebrew/Yiddish templates

Much kudos to you for sorting all those out: I don't type either language myself but I can see that using those templates could save people a lot of bother. Thanks particularly for distinguishing between those which can safely be SUBSTituted and those which cannot.

Could I ask you a favour? Could you please add a little explanation to as many as you can manage (before the inevitable boredom sets in and you start bashing your head on your keyboard Template:;-))? The best place is probably in the <noinclude> section which currently contains the category: something like "This template inserts the Hebrew letter [[whatever]]…" would be brilliant. HTH HAND —Phil | Talk 10:38, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ehud Ben Gera

You wrote that Ehud means union, but I've never heard of it or anything alike. I'd appreciate it if you reply on the talk page. conio.h • talk 01:23, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] ʻOkina in MSIE 6

Hi, Gilgamesh.

I applaud your creation of {{okina}}. I think it's a great idea and I would have done myself it if you hadn't already. It looks great in my copy of Firefox and Netscape. However, in my version of MSIE (6.0-blahblah winxp sp2), it still renders the character as a (narrow) block. I've made a test page to show how the various renderings look: User:Markkawika/Sandbox. Did you install any special fonts to get your MSIE to show the ʻokina correctly? I very much want MSIE users to be able to see the ʻokina in all its glory, but I desperately don't want them to see ugly rectangles. And that's what I see when I use MSIE (which is very rare). Markkawika 10:59, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Do you have either Arial Unicode MS or Code2000? Oh, and Mac users these days have no problem with the ʻokina, so that base is covered. :3 - Gilgamesh 13:39, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Help at Early life of Joseph Smith, Jr.

Early life of Joseph Smith, Jr. will be featured on the Main Page on the 23rd. Vandalism will probably be frequent that day. Could you help in monitoring the page? The 23rd starts at 7 pm ET on Dec 22nd, since wikipedia goes by UTC. Thx in advance. Trödel•talk 01:57, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Template:Hebrewterm

Hi Gilgamesh: Please take a moment to review Wikipedia:Templates for deletion#Template:Hebrewterm. Thanks. IZAK 08:10, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hebrew Alphabet

Saw this message, what do you think of it? IZAK 06:49, 25 December 2005 (UTC):

"I have rewritten the articles on all the Hebrew letters here and before I replace the pages, your input would be appreciated. Thanks! Sputnikcccp 16:26, 23 December 2005 (UTC)"
Real Life™ got in the way, so I never checked it out. And then, when I came back to regular editing, I had other things on my mind. - Gilgamesh 06:51, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Lake Bonneville

It is a former lake. The lake that is there now isn't anything of the scope of what was Lake Bonneville; it's not the same lake. What was Lake Bonneville doesn't exist anymore. I think the category should be replaced. --DanielCD 16:48, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Then rightly Lake Chad and the Aral Sea should be the same concept—the Aral Sea in particular is splitting into two lakes because it keeps shrinking. But if one were to categorize these as former lakes, someone might want to revert it. I think the difference is human timescale—Lake Bonneville largely shrunk to its remnants in prehistory, but these other lakes have been shrinking in recorded history. Maybe there should be an intermediate category, something like "Shrunken lakes" or something similar. - Gilgamesh 17:05, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Maybe. I guess the fact of prehistory was my big sell point; it was a biiiiig lake at one time. Plus all the intermediate levels of the lake are all referred to under LB, even though the levels have unique names. Fascinating to be there and see all the lines of each former level running along the base of the Wasatch range. I put the category back and left a comment, but I'll leave it to your discretion as to whether or not to remove it again. --DanielCD 17:21, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject LDS

Hello! I noticed you were on the list of members in the LDS WikiProject, and I was wondering if you were still interested in helping out there. You see, over the past few months, it appears that it has slowly drifted into inactivity. But you CAN help. Please consider doing both of the following:

  1. Take ONE thing form the To-Do list and do it. Once you're done with it, remove it from the list, and from the<>{{Template:LDSprojectbox}}<>, so we know its done. Keep the page on your watchlist. We have a backlog going for more than half a year. Please help to work on it, and remove it.
  2. Vote on the LDSCOTF, and work on it!
  3. Tell your friends (esp. LDS friends, & esp. Wikipedian friends) about this WikiProject, and enocourage them to join (and be active).

Remember: your involvement in this WikiProject is just that - involvement! Please help us out.

(Note: I'm sending this out to everyone who's name was on the membership list, so I will NOT be watching this page for a response. If you want to contact me, do it on MY talk page, please.)

Thanks for all that you do -Trevdna 15:45, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] MMP

Saludos y shalom, amigo. I notice you put the article Minuteman Project into the Category:Racism. I don't know if you were basing the categorization on the SPLC's declaration or on the theory (I don't recall whose at the moment) that racism is defined by results, regardless of intent, and therefore since the Minuteman Project (and the Border Patrol, for that matter) affect only people of color, this makes them racist. Personally, I believe that the anti-illegal immigration movement in general has a racist tinge to it, but in my experience, this type of categorization, especially without prior discussion on an article's talkpage, only leads to revert- and edit-wars. I have made the same argument for de-categorizing National Council of La Raza from the racism category. There was a lively debate as to whether or not to categorize the group as mere vigilantes! I'm going to revert it for now, but please feel free to plead your case here, on the article's talkpage, or on my talkpage. Gracias,--Rockero 05:47, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Talk:Saadia Gaon

Note there that you might be interested in. Tomertalk 06:33, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Japonic languages

Hello Gilgamesh --

User Nobu Sho added some text from the Japonic languages page to the Japanese language page, which seems to have originated with you back around August 2004. The snippet in question is:

Japanese is related to modern Korean based primarily on near-identical grammar, but there is scarce lexical similarity between the two; supporters of the Buyeo languages theory generally do not include modern Korean as part of that family.

As I discuss over on the Talk pages for Japonic languages and Japanese language, I've got some issues with this statement, and I was hoping you or someone else could provide a source citation or two. Would you be so kind as to post on either (or both) of these talk pages with a source? Thank you, Eiríkr Útlendi 23:23, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nakbah and peace

Thanks for your recent note on my talk page. I usually find it best to respond point by point, it's easier for me:

  • As (dispossession) also happened to 600,000 Jews who had lived in Arab countries, the Nakbah (and most of these people spoke Arabic too) really goes both ways. I absolutely agree that the catastrophe also applies to Jews who lived in Arab countries. It's just that the word 'Nakba', in and of itself, has come to be associated with the Palestinian plight. This doesn't diminish other 'Nakba's, but history has just popularized the word 'Nakba' to this particular event, although certainly the world is full of 'Nakba's.
  • Equality for (Arab Jews) has come slow, but they are finding it. Probably evident with the election of Amir Peretz I guess.
  • Israel slowly gave them was far favorable to what they were denied in Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Lybia, Yemen, and so forth, and virtually none wish to return to what they see as a now-unliveable place Perhaps one can see why Palestinians who have ended up in these countries also do not wish to remain there.
  • These Jewish refugees traditionally would bend over backwards to avoid conflict, but got conflict anyway, and the sentiment that they'll never get back what they lost is now absolutely orthodox to them. There has been some attempts to get the new Iraqi government to consider some sort of compensation, or possibly even reacquiring of lost property. Hopefully it is not a lost cause, although with other Arab regimes it is probably not going to happen anytime soon.
  • maybe the greatest way (Palestinian refugees) can be served is to be given full citizenship in the places where they live now, such as Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, and so forth. I do not doubt that if offered, Palestinians would grab the chance to become citizens if only to be able to better their immediate living conditions. However, I don't think it is the solution to the conflict, since the refugee problem is a 'deep wound' and there needs to be some closure in the from of compensation and the right to return to a future state of Palestine, but not to Israel itself. See the third point above, these countries are not really places people would want to gain citizenship in voluntarily, not with their current regimes, miserable economy, and lack of basic freedoms.
  • Jordan, for its credit was very graceous to give citizenship to Palestinians and their refugees residing in Jordan and the West Bank. Do not mistake Jordanian territorial ambitions for generosity. When the Jordanians realized they had no hope of reclaiming the West Bank, they severed all ties in 1988. Any Palestinian who was not domiciled on Jordanian soil on July 31, 1988 had citizenship revoked, including the entire population of the West Bank.
  • And if Palestinians themselves want a state, there really is no equitable rationale to deny them their wish. Any Palestinian state before Israel comes to terms with what kind of country it wants to be would (in Israeli minds) pose a danger to Israel. I'm not talking about violence, but this so-called 'demographic problem' which I believe is the real reason (besides territorial ambitions) that Israel is afraid to have a free non-Jewish state so close to it that is economically symbiotic, because economic inter-dependibility sooner or later becomes a guise for a de-facto one-state situation, which scares the Israelis.
  • But real peace and the end of beligerence can only really come when there is no more denials of anyone's shared history I agree!
  • If many consider it a religious sin to divide the Land of Israel, then let it be united by people who agree and adhere to a peaceful coexistence where there is no fear of neighbors, and no one has to feel the psychological need for walls, checkpoints, raids, airstrikes, bombings, and the like. Again, I agree.

Thank you for your words and also your recommendation of Loolwa Khazzoom. I have often argued that Israelis and Palestinians have at least one thing in common if nothing else: tyranny at the hands of Arab neighbors. One one hand, nobody doubts that had Arabs won the war in 1948, they would have prevented the establishment of an independent Palestine as well. On the other hand, non-Palestinian Arabs have oppressed and humiliated Jews and now Palestinians in their midst, but denied they did either. Funny how things go. Now we Palestinians, being what I consider the most democratic among all Arabic-speaking nations (regarding not just choice of leaders but basic internal freedoms (like press, etc) that make up for the absence of basic external freedoms imposed by the occupation) are about to go through what the rest of those nations will inevitably have to go through - the path of being ruled by religious fundamentalists. And hopefully we'll be the first to emerge from this inevitable situation, and with a strong peace, be a symbol of prosperity and tolerance to those other places which are still in constant denial of their miserable conditions. Thanks again, Ramallite (talk) 20:59, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Okina Template

Gilgamesh - Whatever change you made to the Template:Okina it appears to have defeated the purpose, as it is now appearing as an empty box to most users. I cannot tell if there is a system wide problem or what, but pages like Template:Okina and even Hawaii no longer appear as existing when I try to access them. I can get to them through their history if I can find where I have edited them in the past, but the system tells me the page does not exist if I try to go through a link - Marshman 02:02, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Looks like you fixed the okina template. Thanks! - Marshman 18:16, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, but it's still breaking Wikipedia policy by including the unicode template. The alternative would be to use it every single time a Hawaiian-origin word or name with the ʻokina is used, but that doesn't seem very realistic to me for Hawaiian English. No, this is a Hawaiian English letter, and it should be simpler than that. But remember that the template breaks inside <span> tags, as the unicode template itself uses <span>. So...what to do... - Gilgamesh 19:39, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Well we are working towards two goals: 1) readability and 2) accurate representation. Those need to be satisfied before 3) another Wikipedia policy (=suggestion). Can something be included in the symbols table such as was done for the macron on letters? Or would that require the same sort of work around, the real problem being with the browsers? - Marshman 18:15, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Same workaround, unfortunately. Our problem is longstanding displayability bugs in Internet Explorer, which have gone unfixed because there is very little incentive for them to do so. We could, however, provide a second template for ʻokina without the unicode template, which could be used safely inside other <span> tags, albeit still with the same IE displayability bugs... All this would be far easier if Wikipedia didn't force any font faces anywhere at all, so that the browser's default font display engine could do as it pleases. - Gilgamesh 18:20, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] the fakauʻa, the ʻeta, whatever you call it

That is the way that thing ʻ, the Hawaiʻian ʻokina, is called in Tonga and Tahiti. Macintosh users have it already for years, but Windows users only see boxes. Or so I believe. People get frustrated when I talk about it, so I am still not sure, and your discussions did not make me much wiser. Fact is that people complain they cannot read the articles I wrote about Tongan and Tahitian when I use ʻ (unicode 0x02BB). And I would not want to use ‘ (0x2018). Is the { {okina} } template supposed to solve the problem or not. Is it working now or not? The others said that they could read en.wikipedia.org/hawaii but not haw.wikiepedia.org/hawaii. So I am utterly confused now. You seem to be the expert. Please illuminate. --Tauʻolunga 05:38, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

The okina template is probably the best that can be done in Internet Explorer's increasingly obsolete display engine. - Gilgamesh 06:02, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hawaii and article naming style

Hi Gilgamesh, there are two different issues at stake with the naming of Hawaiian articles. Firstly, the official name of the state of Hawaii does not have an 'okina today, so by Wikipedia style it should be consistently written without one when referring to the state. This guideline has not been enforced particularly strongly, as you may notice; more important atm are article naming guidelines (see below).

Secondly, the guidelines for article titles in particular is to use widely-accepted names when there is a choice between different spellings. So even in cases where there is no official-name issue, if a name is always spelled without an 'okina in most contexts, but with an 'okina by people living in Hawaii, the article title should be without one (though the article text is welcome to use an 'okina). See for instance Kingdom of Hawaii.

Cheers, +sj + 14:25, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

But what of Hawaiian English? Consider regional standardized spelling variants around the world, such as "center" and "centre". In Hawaiian English, the ʻokina is used everywhere. - Gilgamesh 22:47, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pontian Muslims in Trabzon

Hi Gilgamesh,

You added to the Trabzon article a long time ago that it still has a sizeable Pontian Muslim community. Do you have any sources for this? See Talk:Trabzon for more details. Thanks. --Khoikhoi 22:06, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. --Khoikhoi 08:42, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] VEI cfr

See Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion#Category:VEI-8_supervolcanoes_to_Category:VEI-8_volcanoes. Also, these categories are a bit tricky since most volcanoes fall under multiple categories. — jdorje (talk) 21:17, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, that's easy. Virtually every volcano has smaller eruptions, but I categorized each volcano by each of their known eruption size crests. Otherwise, every volcano would also have to be in almost every smaller eruption size category. So, even though the 1980 Mount Saint Helens eruption was a VEI-5, it's categorized as VEI-6 because of the sheer size of one of its known prehistoric eruptions. If only the most recent eruption were to be considered, then Mount Saint Helens would be a meager VEI-whatever because it's currently only building a lava dome, and not explosively ejecting huge amounts of material. So, the question is, "What was this volcano's largest single eruption, and how big was it?" The fact that a volcano is capable of an eruption this huge further shows what it is (or at least was) capable of, which is part of what makes it amazing. And because the eruptions could get that big, it is surely implied that it also probably had any number of other eruptions on any of the smaller VEI numbers. Therefore, it really isn't necessary to put the volcano in both the larger and the smaller eruption categories. - Gilgamesh 05:41, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hebrew/Aramaic transliterations and etymologies

Hey Gilgamesh. User:Haldrik is adding transliterations and etymologies of Hebrew/Aramaic words that seem to contradict others I've seen. Since you're an expert in this, I'm hoping you can provide some insight. Would you mind taking a look? You can find them at Jesus#Names and Yeshua. Jayjg (talk) 19:26, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

To be honest, I'm not an expert of Aramaic. I just know how to vocalize and transliterate biblical Aramaic as it is written with the same consonants and vowel pointing systems as the Hebrew in the rest of the Tanakh. But I'll give it a look. - Gilgamesh 01:37, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] from unicode to Chinese

Thanks for working on changing all the unicode to regular Chinese characters!!!!!!!!!!! You rock!Mike 16:30, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disco or no Disco

to me, the only disco is the dance music up until 1980 or 1981. "It's Raining Men" is most definitely a club anthem but not disco in my opinion. same with the song "Who Do You Think You Are". however if you feel that the songs qualify as simply another form of the genre, then by all means re-add them as "disco songs." Drmagic 20:59, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Israel-Palestine

Hey, Thanks for your contributions to WP. Unfortunately, I nominated the Israel-Palestine article you started for deletion for reasons stated therein. Regards, - the.crazy.russian τ ç ë 17:51, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Greek Islands

I've noticed that you've created stubs of many Greek Islands. Maybe you should slow down and expand them. Thank you, --Janarius 17:00, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I would, but the truth is that I barely know anything about them other than their name, their location, and the archipelago they're located in. - Gilgamesh 17:01, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Your Strongili is not my Strongyli

Hallo, I noticed that you merged my Stub about the Islet of Strongili with yours. Unfortunately, you did not read carefully my stub, so you did not notice that "my" Strongili (where I have been last summer with the sailboat: it is really a beautiful place!) is located east of Kastellórizo: this means in the Dodecanese, and not in the Cyclades. I don't know any Strongili there, but Strongyli ("round", in Greek) is one of the ancient names of Santorini. So I corrected the stub. Anyway, if you find out that another Island with this name does exist, you can add write another stub and a disambiguation about it. Thanks! alex2006 15:18, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Koine Greek

Hi, I noticed you modified the phonetic transcriptions at Koine Greek. I don't quite agree with some of the changes - in particular, the change from aspirated stops to voiceless fricatives is dated rather late in antiquity, as far as I know, so for the Maccabeans text the plosives were quite appropriate. Would you mind if I changed those back sometime? Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:36, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh...well, no, I don't mind. Just don't forget the sandhi rules. :3 And, afaik, the Christian texts should use fricatives, right? - Gilgamesh 18:02, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, if I remember correctly, Horrocks dates the voiceles fricative shift to as late as 3rd/4th century AD. I'd have to check again. And don't overdo it with the sandhi rules - I think you had one or two across phrase boundaries where I wouldn't expect them, as in pántoŋ ke aoráton. But that's certainly open to interpretation to some degree :-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:05, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, then I invite you to use your best judgment in regards to sandhi. :3 - Gilgamesh 00:10, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Saints Wikiproject

I noted that you have been contributing to articles about saints. I invite you to join the WikiProject Saints. You can sign up on the page and add the following userbox to your user page.

This user is a member of the Saints WikiProject.


Thanks! --evrik 16:14, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

*blinks* I don't remember that... Maybe I just edited an article about a saint once or twice, but I'm not really into that topic. - Gilgamesh 00:43, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Siberian Traps and VEI

Why did you put a VEI of 11 at Siberian Traps? Isn't the maximum VEI 8? Or did I misinterpret it? --Hardscarf 22:46, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

It's math. Learn the VEI scale and then read how much material the volcano extruded during its long effusive eruption. The VEI number goes up for every factor of ten, and a VEI-11 extrudes at least a thousand times as much as the smallest VEI-8. - Gilgamesh 03:09, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
I understand, but this page states " There are no known explosive events with a VEI larger than 8." and this blog states "So why no VEI 9? Simple, massive eruptions don’t happen often! But they do happen. The Siberian External Link Traps External Link erupted a massive 1,000,000 - 4,000,000 km3 of magma covering an area of 7,000,000 km2. The volcanism continued for a million years and spanned the Permian-Triassic External Link boundary and may have contributed to the massive global extinction, although no firm evidence exists for this.". It leaves me wonder if you can really use the VEI for something like that. If VEI=11 is not defined, then I don't think wikipedia should invent it (no original "research"), besides the category of the article mentions VEI=8. On the other hand, if you have a source for VEI=11, then please add it. --Hardscarf 08:58, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Eh, I can't argue with that, though I was under the impression that VEI measured the total volume of material in a single eruption, and that using simple math with the scale could not be original research. But if you think VEI-11 and such are inappropriate labels, then feel free to remove them. - Gilgamesh 11:38, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Ok, thank you. --Hardscarf 16:04, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pangaea

I asked some questions at Talk:Pangaea about etymology; could you have a look please? I studied Greek once but have forgotten most of it. --Mathew5000 04:37, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Eritrea

Quick question. Would the rift valley be the largest mainly overland mountain range?

Yom 08:24, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't be able to say that for sure, and I wouldn't unless it could be cited. - Gilgamesh 08:47, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cities destroyed during WWII - CfD

Hi there - as the creator or editor of many of the categories in Category:Cities destroyed during World War II, I thought you might be interested in the discussion here. Thanks. Carcharoth 11:13, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Opinion?

Just wondering if the statements on your page about Mormon doctrine were yours or official opinion. I'm not Mormon, but they were the most liberal statements I've ever seen, and I commend you! Secos5 02:53, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Opinion, and yes I'm very liberal. - Gilgamesh 11:20, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Really..? I beg to differ. maybe liberality is more prone to interpretation than I thought :) --Procrastinating@talk2me 20:09, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, most of my neighbors are arch-conservatives, so even the moderate conservatives in my family are "liberals". - Gilgamesh 09:25, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Yep, some liberals are other's conservatives. like this new article full body tattoo, will you treat such a person will full unprejudice respect regarding knowledge of something you feel dear about ,such as history .. because one of those (fuckin) freaks has a PHD in it...:) I dont know if anyone is really fundamentally liberal --Procrastinating@talk2me 16:57, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tajik alphabet

Thanks for the contribution, but could you explain why you changed the 'g' ? I'm probably either forgetting something or just being stupid, but what is the difference between 'g' and 'ɡ'? Is one an IPA symbol and the other not? Feel free to explain either on my usertalk or on the talk page. Thanks :) - FrancisTyers · 15:59, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I just read Voiced velar plosive and now I understand. Thanks again :) - FrancisTyers · 16:01, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm glad that's cleared up. :3 Regardless of font style, IPA [ɡ] must be displayed in written script form, rather than the double-loop 'g' typical of Times and Antiqua style fonts. As such, Unicode provides a dedicated [ɡ] glyph that is supposed to be shaped like the written script letter regardless of the font's appearance. Its Unicode value is 0x0263, and can be written in HTML and in Wikipedia as &#X263; if you can't paste the actual character. - Gilgamesh 16:47, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Diamond Head, Hawaii

One of the pictures on the Diamond Head, Hawaii article is up for nomination to become a featured picture! You can see the picture here. Please add a supporting vote on its nomination page here or, more specifically, here, if you feel it's worthy. Thanks for your help! Cathryn 16:13, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hello

We seem to have things in common. Also, I would like help. User:Johngagon

[edit] Another okina question

Is there a font in which that character is expressed in? It may fix some problems for users of IE if there's a font face that utilizes the okina in normal text (although I doubt this will fix everything). Ryūlóng 22:41, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Lucida Sans Unicode and Arial Unicode MS display it. - Gilgamesh 00:47, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I've editted {{'okina}} and {{okina}} so that they appear correctly in Internet Explorer. I do not believe that there was any change (the only problem was that I had to remove the usage of one of the templates in Hawaii's infobox so all of the images and links displayed correctly). Ryūlóng 20:04, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] proto-semitic affricates

are you sure about this? it's not in keeping with a bunch of references that i've seen. Benwing 05:34, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

The American Heritage Dictionary has a Proto-Semitic phonemes chart that specifics alveolar affricates and alveolar laterals. The emphatic alveolar lateral may or may not have also been an affricate (this can be noted), but it would make sense considering that both its Hebrew and early Arabic descendants were affricates. - Gilgamesh 07:35, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

are you sure the early arabic descendant was an affricate? wikipedia used to say so because i put that in; but i recently discovered i was mistaken, when i tried to verify this -- all sources clearly described it as fricative, not affricate. This is why Daad and Dhaal merged in dialects that preserved the interdental fricatives; the pronunciation with emphatic /d/ came about as a result of all interdental fricatives becoming dental stops. Benwing 04:52, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Do what you think is best. - Gilgamesh 07:32, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Galwegian versus Gallovidian

Galwegian won in my perfunctory search of historical works, being 4:1 ahead over Gallovidian when I lost interest. So I moved the article back to Galwegian Gaelic. Angus McLellan (Talk) 00:24, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Are you certain the "Galwegian" references weren't about Galway? - Gilgamesh 00:30, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Absolutely certain ! The material in question was about Galloway and not Galway. Angus McLellan (Talk) 09:48, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
That seems so counterintuitive to me. - Gilgamesh 11:02, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
No more so than Moravian referring to Moray. I still haven't managed to find more than one writer (R. Andrew McDonald) who uses gallovidian rather than galwegian. On Google, galwegian + galway gets rather more hits than galwegian + galway, while gallovidian + galloway gets less again. Angus McLellan (Talk) 16:17, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Simeon and Levi in Category:Mass murderers

From my talk page:

Why did you revert this category inclusion? I'm talking about Genesis 34, where Simeon and Levi murder all the men in a town while they were sleeping after a circumcision, in revenge for Dinah's rape by Shechem. Is this not understood to be an unrighteous act? This is the only context I'd ever known it to be judged in. The category should stay. - Gilgamesh 04:28, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

As I noted in the comments to my edits, I believe that just as categorizing Muhammad as a child abuser for marrying a nine-year old would be true, but unecessary and inflammatory, the Simeon and Levi categories are inappropriate. Certainly, Simeon and Levi are not known as murderers, but as founding fathers.
By the way, there is a tradition of which I am aware that Simeon and Levi's actions were justified, though inappropriate. (Since the people knew about the rape and took no action, they were accesories to the crime.) This justification, if valid, would remove their act from the category of murder.
--Eliyak T·C 23:04, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hebrew naming conventions

Hi, how have you been? Just notifying you that the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Hebrew) is heating up again, this time a user is trying to change the transliterations into ultra-modern transcriptions, like KH for Het, which I strongly oppose, and you probably will as well. Please insert your 2 cents.

Thanks, Ynhockey (Talk) 19:59, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Okina, again

It looks like someone removed all usage of {{okina}} with a normal typographic mark in several articles, I replaced them in Hawaii and Hawaiian language so far; but there may be more. Ryūlóng 06:50, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I replaced it in Kahoʻolawe. This is incomprehensible... - Gilgamesh 07:12, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
I think we may be done... I can't find any more. Ryūlóng 07:28, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
I found the user responsible: 72.235.2.235 (talk • contribs • WHOIS • RDNS • RBLs • block user • block log) Ryūlóng 07:32, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
You good at fixing that? I'm like a zombie right now. Besides, I put in most of the {{okina}} tags to begin with, and it was exhaustingly repetitive. X3 - Gilgamesh 08:31, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Ardennes and Eifel

You reverted my removal of the category from the parent category of Category:Volcanoes of Luxembourg. The reason that I removed it from that category is that the articles within the category are not actually articles relating to volcanoes. For the most part, they relate to the Ardennes Offensive and the French région of Champagne-Ardennes. Consequently, by putting Category: Ardennes and Eifel in Category:Volcanoes in Luxembourg, you are implying that the région of Champagne-Ardennes is a volcanoes in Luxembourg (as are all of its towns, etc), which it is clearly not. To correctly categorise it, one should put the articles of 'Eifel' and 'Ardennes' in Category:Volcanoes in Luxembourg, as Eifel and Ardennes are volcanic regions of northern Luxembourg. Bastin 17:09, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Alright, then if you see that issue, make sure that it is done—move the category tags to those two subjects so that Category:Volcanoes of Luxembourg doesn't go needlessly empty. - Gilgamesh 21:30, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tiberian Hebrew

Hello. Some time ago you added a Tiberian Hebrew translation/transliteration of the name Mt. Ararat to the Mt. Ararat article. There is a regular Hebrew translation, and the Tiberian Hebrew doesn't seem to add much. Is there a reason why the article needs the Tiberian Hebrew translation of the name? Best regards, -- Ssilvers 03:49, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Because "regular" Hebrew tends to be Modern Israeli Hebrew, which is phonologically simplified. Tiberian is the more inflected vocalization prescribed by the medieval Masoretic Text (and indicated originally by niqqud in the Tanakh), and of very good usefulness to scholars. - Gilgamesh 03:53, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
OK, but it just looks like ʾĂrārāṭ, which just looks like English, with a bunch of accent marks to me. Tiberian Hebrew uses Latinate letters? Also, is Mt. Ararat mentioned in Tiberian Hebrew texts? Thanks for the linguistics lesson!  :-) -- Ssilvers 17:46, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, this is a scientific transcription of the Hebrew word אֲרָרָט, for linguistic consumption, similarly to how Athênai is a scientific transcription of Classical Greek Ἀθῆναι for Athens, which is different from "Athens" or the Modern Greek Αθήνα, transcribed Athína. And yes, the "mountains of Ararat" are mentioned in Book of Genesis as where Noah's Ark sets down—the reference in the Masoretic text is הָרֵי אֲרָרָט, scientifically transcribed Hārê ʼĂrārāṭ. Mt. Ararat is named after that reference in the traditional belief that the mountain was the spot that the Bible refers to. - Gilgamesh 21:38, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

אֲרָרָט is what the Hebrew word says. I hate to seem obtuse, but if the Tiberian Hebrew word is the same as the Hebrew word, why do we need to express both? -- Ssilvers 02:56, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Because linguists often work with transcriptions, and focus on the phonology rather than deal with the writing system. Besides, Modern Hebrew words are also sometimes written with niqqud points to indicate the vowels, but Modern Hebrew pronounces them differently from the prescribed medieval pronunciation used to write the Hebrew Bible. Israeli Hebrew has five vowels and four diphthongs—the Tiberian Hebrew of the Masoretes has four schwa-quality vowels, five short vowels, seven long vowels, and no diphthongs, and nearly all diverging Hebrew dialects derive from this original canonical phonology given regular mutation. Israeli Hebrew would take the same snippet of Hebrew text and render it "Ararat", while traditional Ashkenazi Jews would use "Arorot"—ʼĂrārāṭ is a very descriptive scientific representation of the consonants and vowels that leaves no real ambiguity as for its Masoretic form and its derivatives. - Gilgamesh 04:25, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, my friend. Although I'm an Ashkenazi Jew, I can't see how a pronunciation difference based on older forms of Hebrew is of any interest to a reader of the article on Mt. Ararat. However, I'm no scholar, so I yield to you, if you think it is of interest to readers to give both the transliteration of medieval Hebrew and the modern Hebrew translation. Best regards, -- Ssilvers 05:42, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm very glad I came across this conversation. For quite a while, I've been bothered by articles which offer the Tiberian version of a word, and it appears to be nothing more than another style of transliteration. And I registered that confusion at Talk:Tiberian vocalization. But this conversation has shed new light on it. If I'm understanding Gilgamesh correctly, Tiberian is a more complex (perhaps more nuanced would be a better term) way of pronouncing Hebrew than modern non-scholars are used to, and the many articles which had bothered me are attempting to show those differences. But that is NOT the impression which I get from the article on Tiberian vocalization. I would like to suggest that Gilgamesh should take the above paragraph ("Because linguists often work with transcriptions...") and rework it a bit and add it to the Tiberian article. Even better, take a quote from an article, and explain it. For example, the article Jacob begins with "Standard Yaʿaqov Tiberian Yaʿăqōḇ". Could you explain, in non-technical language, the differences in how "Yaʿaqov" and "Yaʿăqōḇ" sound. (Some transliterations specify the IPA scheme, or some other. Is that what's happening here?) --Keeves 23:54, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WP:RFD

I have nominated Wikipedia:WikiProject Canaanite languages, a redirect to Wikipedia:WikiProject, for deletion. You are welcome and invited to share your views at WP:RFD/Log/2006-10-16. --Slgr@ndson (page - messages - contribs) 23:36, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Victoria Island

I've removed the "devided regions" category from the article. I don't think that it really fits. If you look at Category talk:Divided regions#Divided regions - an outline #2 i indicates that the division of sovereign states would not really be included. If Victoria is included in the category then why not the rest of the NWT/Nunvaut split area or indeed all of Canada? Cheers. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 14:02, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] about Greek place names

Hello Gilgamesh. Congrats for all the Wiki work you're doing. Apparently you're into Hebrew very much, but I think you were also one of the main contributors (the creator?) of the entry Greek place names, which is great. However I left a comment last week which had no answer, so I thought I would talk to you personally about it. It's not that a big deal, just a little bit of discussion. Let me copy my question below:

["America" doesn't seem to meet any of the criteria for inclusion in this list (...) Adam 03:47, 13 September 2005 (UTC)...]

Well, "America" is just one example of the problem. But the same issue is raised by a number of other forms in the list, such as Australia Αὐστραλία, Hamburg Ἁμβοῦργον, Berlin Βερολῖνον, Bloemfontein Μπλουμφοντέïν, Καμπέρα Canberra, Καζακστάν Kazakhstan, and so on and so forth. What's the point in having these names (and many others) in this list, esp. the supposedly Ancient Greek column?! OK it's great fun to imagine Plato or Homer saying 'Kasdakstán' [and perhaps Βῶρατ ‘Borat’ ;-) ], but as far as encyclopaedic accuracy is concerned, I find it problematic to introduce fake ancient names that just never existed. Do you see what I mean? Needless to say, the rest of the list is great, and incredibly useful; and of course, having ancient names listed for Ireland, Aethiopia, Caucasus…, is perfectly OK, since these words appear as early as Herodotus or Plato (even Homer for Aethiopia!), if I remember well. Womtelo 15:32, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Let me add one line: I'm not even sure the inclusion of these names is justified by their use in Modern Greek either, at least in those cases when they are no more than a phonemic transcription of the vernacular or international form (exception = Berolinon). Otherwise the list should include all names of countries, capitals, important cities, and so on, which would be just too much. [interested people should visit the Greek wp in that case].

I hope you get my point. Cheers, Womtelo 14:21, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, the issue is that the "ancient" column is not all that ancient. It also covers Attic Greek (which continued to have literary and academic value and continues to have religious value) and Katharevousa (which is an intentional archaism that was the official language of Greece, until only a few decades ago). It is still of academic interest. As for America, Australia, Kazakhstan, etc., they are places today that have significant Greek expatriate communities. Kazakhstan especially—the ancient Greek communities on the former Soviet Black Sea coast were all but completely deported to Kazakhstan by Stalin. Also, sorry I never gave a reply about Hebrew, I can't even remember what your comment was about or when. I've been having real life to deal with. - Gilgamesh 17:38, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the reply. I got your point, however I still have some reservations about several of these names (e.g. does Bloemfontein really have a significant Greek community?); and also about the Katharevousa transcription. For example, as far as I know, the transcription of /ζ/ as [sd] corresponds to a very ancient state of Attic phonology; as early as κοινη times (see Zeta), this phoneme had already evolved into [dz] or more probably [z]; and obviously Katharevousa does not have such a pronunciation. Even if I understand the difference between phonetics and transliteration, I find it problematic to transcribe a place name of the XXth century like Kazakhstan using transliteration conventions that date 25 centuries back in time (Kasdakstan). Note that /ζ/ is just one example, then there is also the issue of iotacism, and more generally the choice of an archaic, Pericles'-time spelling to transliterate place names that are not even pronounced that way in modern katharevousa -- e.g. modern terms Ινδονησία Indonēsía or Μικρονησία, Mikronēsía, which have always been pronounced [-nisia] since their creation; likewise Μπλουμφοντέïν transcribed with an aspirated [ph], although such consonants turned into constrictives about two millennia ago. What I would have chosen probably is to leave the Attic column blank for those names that are clearly too modern to be compatible with an archaic-like transliteration. Anyway... [incidentally, I never wrote to you about Hebrew, you misunderstood my sentence]. cheers, Womtelo 20:49, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
For starters, Bloemfontein is one of the three capitals of South Africa, a country with a significant Greek immigrant community. Whether Bloemfontein itself has a significant Greek population is something I can't recall, but it seemed relevant on a national level—even Greek South African citizens go to Bloemfontein for supreme court matters. Also, I am not inflexible, and I could understand /ζ/ being retransliterated to /z/ (and to /zz/ after a vowel). Similarly, I could understand /ξ/ being retransliterated to /x/, and I would also probably not object to /χ/ being retransliterated to /ch/. However, even Katharevousa and the modern Greek Orthodox Church kept full polytonic orthography, including markings no longer pronounced for millennia. These systems (either only recently discontinued or still used together, depending on field) intentionally preserve archaisms in their writing. As such, leaning towards detail, I would still transcribe aspir as /h/, /η/ as /ē/, /ω/ as /ō/, /ευ/ as /eu/, /φ/ as /ph/, etc., and this is to be understood as a detail-preserving systematic transcription and not necessarily a modern phonetic realization, and therefore the context should be clear. Considering that archaisms in Classical Greek phonology were still carried into these modern systems either demonstrates that the standards themselves are frivolous, or that it is not at all frivolous to reflect the same amount of detail in our academic transcriptions. Since I am in no position to judge the frivolity of any surviving modern uses of polytonic orthography, I am inclined to believe that there is no harm in keeping these highly-detailed transcriptions the way they are. - Gilgamesh 23:43, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Hello Gilgamesh. Because our discussion I think is of interest for the readers of the specific topic 'List of traditional Greek place names', I've copied it into the Talk page of that topic. Cheers, Womtelo 16:57, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
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