User:Germen/Prejudices about islam

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This article serves as a playground as to investigate prejudices about islam in order to verify whether they are factual (hence not prejudices) or not.

1 Evaluation of supposed islamophobic claims

[edit] Evaluation of supposed islamophobic claims

Several authors define islamophobia more specifically. According to them, Islamophobia encompasses the belief that Islam promotes

a religious fanaticism, b violent tendencies towards non-Muslims, c terrorism and rejects concepts such as

d equality e tolerance, f democracy and g human rights.

All Qur'an citations are from the English translation of Yusuf Ali of the "Noble Qur'an", considered as authorative by e.g. Diyanet. --Germen 10:44, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] A Religious fanatism

This term, of course, is subjective. All religions with the possible exception of Zen buddhism praise adherence to their doctrines. The hadith contain a much-cited injunction to follow the middle path. Muslims which are adherents of more austere brands of islam, such as Salafism, define this middle path as the exact replication of Muhammads behaviour. Exceeding Mohammads example, e.g. praying seven times per day instead of five times, is considered extremism by this group.

Quotes and references from Salafi sources, please. Don't just summarize what you believe they believe to be "extremist."

Quote follows below: "Moderation in religion means following the example of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Exaggeration means trying to do more than he did, and negligence means not reaching that level. " - http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=9466&dgn=4 --Germen 09:55, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Your assessment of Zen Buddhism as a faith system that does not "praise adherence" to its "doctrines" may be oversimplifying things a little. Soto school and Rinzai school, and their respective offshoots, had and have a historic disagreement on the nature of the practice, and the role Zen played in promoting Japanese militarism before and during World War II is only now coming to light [1]. BrandonYusufToropov 17:49, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

I am not a scholar of Zen, therefore I said possible. OK, what you said is well possible. Please note that Japanese Zen buddhism has some deviations of the original Chinese Zen. --Germen 09:55, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] B Violent tendencies towards non-Muslims

Qur'an 98:6: those who do not believe are the wordt of creatures

To the degree that you are deleting words from the middle of this verse, I respectfully maintain that you are MAKING THIS STUFF UP AS YOU GO ALONG.

The literal translation of this verse follows below. Qur'an 98:6 Those who disbelieve, among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures. I did not add it because it is Wikipedia policy not to repeat available sources.

I'm not even going to bother checking the rest of your citations. Citing a translation and quoting it accurately, rather than rewriting the Qur'an on they fly, might help you move a step away from obvious bias. If that's a priority. BrandonYusufToropov 17:58, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

If you differ with me, cite your sources as per Wikipedia policy.--Germen 13:37, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Germen is, indeed, interpolating citations in an completely original way so, in the sense you use and for the purposes of Wikipedia, he is "making it up as he goes along"... in other words, original research (or what was once called here as spoon feeding) as I have pointed out above in the Runnymede Definition section. None of the "evidence" Germen has submitted is usable unless he can actually demonstrate with his own reputable citations that others have applied it in the same way (i.e. to "disprove" the RD). I think this is clear and, without such evidence, his original reasoning can be safely ignored. Axon 09:55, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

If you differ with me, cite your sources as per Wikipedia policy. I did cite my sources, therefore I did not do original research. These are quotes from the YusufAli translation of the "Noble Qur'an". --Germen 10:35, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Please carefully read WP:NOR - the burden of proof to dispute the RD is with you, not I: please cite your sources that demonstrate that the RD has been disputed. Please do not ignore the points I raise above so I do not have to repeat myself. Axon 10:38, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Please do not delete my comments[2], Germen. This is against Wikipedia policy! Axon 10:49, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Quran 47:4 Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; at length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind (the captives) firmly: thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.

If this is not a violent attitude towards non-Muslims, what is? --Germen 10:42, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Qur'an 5:51 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

[edit] C Terrorism

Qur'an 59:2 It is He Who got out the Unbelievers among the People of the Book from their homes at the first gathering (of the forces). Little did ye think that they would get out: and they thought that their fortresses would defend them from Allah! But the (Wrath of) Allah came to them from quarters from which they little expected (it), and cast terror into their hearts, so that they destroyed their dwellings by their own hands and the hands of the Believers. Take warning, then, O ye with eyes (to see)!

--Germen 10:07, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Yes, because the modern definition of the word terrorism works so well with a translation that more accurately is represented by the word fear. And notice that it is Allah doing the casting here.Heraclius 04:37, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

The language in this aya is quite convoluted (as is characteristic of the Qur'an, I would like to say). If you read this verse over and over, it gives the impression that Allah instills terror by means of a Believing army. Disputed, I know. In other verses Believers are seen as instruuments of Allah which cast fear in the hearts of the enemies of islam. Terrorism basically means: spreading of fear. --Germen 09:29, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

True, a native Dutch speaker reading an English translation of the Qur'an would see it as convoluted. But let me ask you, how can God instill actual political violence into the hearts of unbelievers? Are you seriously saying that with the definition of terrorism this sentence makes sense?Heraclius 15:10, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] D Equality

Qur'an 4:32And in no wise covet those things in which Allah Hath bestowed His gifts more freely on some of you than on others: to men is allotted what they earn, and to women what they earn: But ask Allah of His bounty. For Allah hath full knowledge of all things.

Qur'an 4:34Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, Great (above you all).

Qur'an 66:5It may be, if he divorced you (all), that Allah will give him in exchange consorts better than you,- who submit (their wills), who believe, who are devout, who turn to Allah in repentance, who worship (in humility), who fast,- previously married or virgins.

--Germen 10:07, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] E Tolerance

Qur'an 3:85 If anyone desires a religion other than Islám (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost.

This is about Muslim apostates.

Qur'an 3:87Of such the reward is that on them (rests) the curse of Allah, of His angels, and of all mankind [i.e. punishment of the Muslims towards ex-Muslims];-

Why are you adding your own explanations?

Qur'an 61:7Who doth greater wrong than one who forges falsehood against Allah, even as he is being invited to Islám? And Allah guides not those who do wrong.

This is about those who according to the Qur'an, reject the truth.

Qur'an 9:30The Jews call Ùzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

--Germen 10:14, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

[Sûrah al-Baqarah: 256] Allah says: “Let there be no compulsion in religion."

[Sûrah Âl `Imrân: 20] Allah says: “So if they [unbelievers] dispute with you, say ‘I have submitted my whole self to Allah, and so have those who follow me.’ And say to the People of the Scripture and to the unlearned: ‘Do you also submit yourselves?’ If they do, then they are on right guidance. But if they turn away, your duty is only to convey the Message. And in Allah’s sight are all of His servants.”

[Sûrah al-Mâ’idah: 99] Allah says: “The Messenger’s duty is but to proclaim the Message.”

[Sûrah Yûnus: 99] Allah says: “If it had been your Lord’s will, all of the people on Earth would have believed. Would you then compel the people so to have them believe?”

Let me point out one more thing. Other religions clearly condemn people to hell for not believing. Islam says that if you are of the People of the Book, and you do good in your life, you will still go to heaven. Heraclius 15:14, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

- There is an entire Surah on non-believers, Al Kafiroon, allow me to quote it all.

Say : O ye that reject Faith! , I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine.

This entire section is terribly formatted and hard to read--Irishpunktom\^talk 15:39, July 18, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] F Democracy

Qur'an 33:36 It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path. (i.e. only theocracy is allowed)

5:44 It was We who revealed the Torah (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islám) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear Me, and sell not My signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are unbelievers. --Germen 10:23, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

You're totally missing the point of this section. This section is about the prejudice that Muslims are not able to live in democratic societies, not about what God said about Moses and what God said about disobeying him.Heraclius 15:18, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Some secular laws contradict Islamic teachings, so may be I misunderstand but I think there is a genuine conflict then. Note, for instance, that many Muslims believe they are not allowed to vote for a secular government, because that would imply they cooperate with lawmaking by others than Allah. --Germen 12:10, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] G Human rights

The question whether islam promotes or objects to human rights can only be answered when it is known what is meant by human rights. When the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights is used as basis, there exist several points in which this Declaration is at odds with some or all branches of Islam.

Article 1. All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. 
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Islam agrees on that all human beings are born free. Islam considers Muslims as more dignified than "People of the Book", which are considered more dignified than polytheist or atheists, the "worst of creatures" according to the Qur'an, 98:6.

Islam recognizes only brotherhood between Muslims. Brotherhood between Muslim and non-Muslim is forbidden according to the Qur'an (5:51).--Germen 11:50, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Article 2. Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status.
Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Islam distinguishes between Muslims, People of the Book and polytheists/atheists, see Article 1. Men have more rights than women, see article 1.

Islam does not recognize ethnic boundaries, although in some Hadith ethnic Arabs are seen as superior to non-Arabs.

Article 3. Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Islam recognizes four categories of people: Muslims, subjugated people (dhimmi's), infidels which are at (temporary, maximum ten years ) truce with the Muslims and infidels which are at war with the Muslims (e.g. have not a temporary truce with the Muslims).

Dhimmi's are discriminated (see dhimmitude, infidels are warred against, thus have no security.

Article 4. No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

The shari'ah allows slavery and the enslavement of infidel prisoners of war. Releasing slaves is considered meritorious in islam.

Article 5. No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Of course, which is torture or cruelty or not is subject to debate. Shari'ah prescribes punishments as flogging, stoning, cauterizing and cutting hands or feet. Most non-Muslims regard those as torture and cruelty.--Germen 11:50, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Article 6. Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

Islam agrees on this, although Shari'ah considers non-Muslims as less trustworthy than Muslims and women less than men. --Germen 11:50, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Article 7. All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law.
All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

According to Islam, men and women are treated differently for the law, as are Muslims, "people of the book" and infidels. In general, women have less rights than men (exception: the obligation of the husband to support the wife) and Muslims have more rights than non-Muslims (exceptions: non-Muslims can change their religion without being killed while Muslims are subject to death penalty after doing so, Muslims are obligated to participate in Jihad when their leader orders them while non-Muslims aren't).--Germen 11:50, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Article 8. Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.

Shari'ah allows all people, including non-Muslims, to appeal for a Qadi (judge). Of course, Shari'ah law regards the testimony of non-Muslims as less (or completely invalid) than that of Muslims and the testimony of women as less than that of men, so their chances to win the appeal are less. "False" witnesses, e.g. witnesses which cannot prove their accusations (e.g. because they are women or non-Muslims), are punished by flogging.

Article 9. No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

Islam agrees on that. Nevertheless, Shari'ah regulations are at odds with the international standards of law as we saw, hence its judgements often do not meet this requirements.

Article 10. Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal,
in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

Islam agrees on that. Of course, a shariah court discriminates non-Muslims and women, so they will be discriminated against impartially.

Article 11. (1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law
in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.

Islam agrees on that.

(2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence,
under national or international law, at the time when it was committed.
Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.

Islam agrees on that. Note, however, that actions not considered a penal offence in meny countries like adultery and leaving Islam are considered 'hadd' in islam.

Article 12. No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence,
nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation.
Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

Shari'ah deals with all facets of human life, outside of the house as well as inside the house, so arbitrary interferes with privacy, family, home and correspondence. Islam protects against attacks against someone's honour or reputation: false witnesses are punished by flogging. Of course, Shari'ah rules of evidence apply, i.e. the witness of a Muslim man is more inportant than the witness of a Muslima or non-Muslim.

Article 13. (1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.

Non-Muslims were banned from the Hejaz (land around Mecca and Medina). Many Muslim countries ban Jews. Non-Muslims are not allowed to enter Mecca or Medina.

(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

Islam agrees on this. Muslims are encouraged to leave infidel lands.

Article 14. (1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.

Islam agrees on this.

(2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Shari'ah does not allow a Muslim to be extradited to a non-Muslim country.

Article 15. (1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.

Islam agrees on this, it must be noted that islam recognizes only the islamic Ummah as the nationality of a Muslim.

(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

Many islamic countries, e.g. Morocco and Turkey, have a hereditary nationality which cannot be revoked. When islam ios considered a nationality, as Islam does, islam denies this right to Muslims. When a Muslim wants to leave islam, he is considered a murtadd (apostate) and according to Shari'ah, must be subjected to death penalty.

Article 16. (1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.

Within islam, men are allowed to have up to four wives and an unlimited number of concubines or sex slaves. Women can only marry with one man. Muslim men can marry Muslim, Christian and Jewish wifes, Muslim women only can marry Muslim men. The wife must obey the husband. Both can divorce at will, however the woman who divorces is considered as inferior, unless she divorces her husband because of his apostacy.

(2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.

islam agrees on this, but "the silence of virgins is considered as consent" (hadith).

(3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.

islam agrees on this. Exceptions are families of captured infidels, the marriage is considered annulled, children can be sold at will and the wife can be kept as a sex slave after she has menstruated in order to exclude pregnancy.

Article 17. (1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.

Islam agrees on this, with the exception of the property of infidels at war with islam and apostates.

(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property."

Islam agrees on this, note however that apostacy and war conditions are considered non-arbitrary deprivement of property.

Article 18. Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Islam denies this right to Muslims. A Muslim who leaves islam muist be sentenced to death. Non-Muslims who live under the protection of islamic authorities, dhimmi's, are not allowed to convert Muslims to their religion. According to shari'ah, dhimmi's are not allowed to build new churches, temples or synagogues.

Article 19. Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Islam recognizes this right with the exception of questioning islam, Muhammad or the shari'ah.

Article 20. (1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.

Islam recognizes this right.

(2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association.

Islam recognizes this right, with two exceptions. Muslims are compelled to join a jihad effort when they are called upon by their leaders. Muslims are not allowed to leave islam, so if islam is considered an association, this can be interpreted as compulsion.

Article 21. (1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.

Islam forbids the rule of a non-Muslim over a Muslim. There exists a limited self-rule for non-Muslims.

(2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.

Islam recognizes this right, however limited rights for dhimmi's apply.

(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.

According to Islam, the will of Allah shall be the basis of authority of government. Leaders may be appointed by democratic procedures, but they are not allowed to introduce laws which contradict the teachings of the Qur'an or the Sunnah.

Article 22. Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.

Islam recognizes this right for Muslims, within the restructions of islam. Non-Muslims have limited rights.

Article 23. (1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.

Islam recognizes this right for Muslims.

(2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.

Islam does not recognize this right explicitly. Introducing this right, however, does not violate islamic teachings.

(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.

Islam recognizes this right.

(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

Islam does not recognize this right explicitly. Introducing this right, however, does not violate islamic teachings.

Article 24. Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.

Islam does not recognize this right explicitly. Introducing this right, however, does not violate islamic teachings.

Article 25. (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

Islam does recognize this right to some degree. Children should take care for their parents. Widows or divorced women can marry to married to unmarried men. Old people without children, unattractive women and orphans are often forced to become beggars.

(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

Islam knows a limited period (several months) in which the father should support children, even after divorce. After this period expires, no conditions apply.

Shari'ah does not recognize children born out of wedlock. Their mother can be sentenced to stoning, as the punishment of wedlock is death.

Article 26. (1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.

Islam agrees on the right of every individual to learn about islam. Sciences which violate islamic teachings are problematic. Islam does not recognize the other rights per se, but they are not in conflict with islamic teachings.

(2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.

Islam restricts this right to education in islam. Islam considers only other Muslims as legitimate friends and brothers.

(3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.

Islam agrees on this.

Article 27. (1) Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.

Islam restricts this right to activities which do not interfere with islamic tenets.

(2) Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.

According to several fatwa's, islam does recognize this right.

Article 28. Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully realized.

War against other islamic nations is not allowed. According to islam, peace with infidels for longer than 10 years is forbidden. The truce can be broken if this favours the Muslim cause, see Treaty of Hudabya. A truce is allowed only when this truce improves the strategic prospects of the Muslims.

Article 29. (1) Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.

Islam supports this statement.

(2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.

Islam restricts this rights.

(3) These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Not applicable

Article 30. Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.

Not applicable, unless this interpretation is seen as islamophobic. --Germen 11:50, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

--Germen (Talk | Contribs ) 14:14, 22 July 2005 (UTC)