Talk:Germanisation

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[edit] Misc

The German folksinger Gottlieb Wendehals (alias Werner Böhm) regularly makes fun very much at the costs of Poles, when writing and singing the song "Polonäse Blankenese", which by means of akward sexual allusions achieved tremendous success among the Germanic audience.

The above statement is complete non-sense. The song is called "Polonäse" because it is a "Polonaise"-type song (Polonäse is light-hearted (incorrect) German transliteration). Neither the title nor the lyrics refer to Poland whatsoever. By the way, what is a "Germanic" audience? 141.13.8.14 10:54, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, not that quite regulary anymore. The song is pretty old. And apart from that word, which is the first time i hear it has anything to do with Poland, the song is pretty nonsense with nothing anti-polish in it. And Blankenese is a district in Hamburg as I remember. Could you explain the akward sexual allusions in that song? Quite mysterious allegation. It was just a song for parties. And I very much doubt most Germans knew what Polonäse means. Most, like I just assumed it was somewhat invented because it suits the lyrics. --Lucius1976 15:58, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Why should the following be offtopic here? And what is wrong about the facts?

"A more complex process took place in Bohemia after the 1620 defeat of Bohemian Protestants. The Protestant Bohemian king elected by the Bohemian estates in 1619 and defeated in 1620 by Catholic forces was Frederick V of the Palatinate. So there seems to have been no reluctance among the Bohemian nobility to accept a German speaking ruler, as they themselves had offered him the Bohemian crown. Among the Bohemian Lords being punished and expropriated after the defeat of 1620 were German und Czech speaking landowners as well. Thus this conflict was overwhelmingly more a conflict within a feudal system than a clash of different nations. Although the Czech language lost its significance (as a written languange) in the aftermath of the events, it is questionable whether this was primarily intended by the Habsburg rulers, who were led by the idea of religious (i.e. Catholic) not by nationalist dominance."


Why were the references to Czech/Bohemian history eradicated? Ist this article about Poles only?


In my eyes, there is a lot of unhistoric nonsense in the article, as it tries to view medieval events with modern nationalist categories. The middle ages and early modern times didn't know the concept of a "nation". So there was no idea of expanding a nation by "Germanising, "Romanising" or whatever another nation. There were ideas of expandig feudal influence or Christian religion, as even the concept of "state" in modern terms was unknown. It can't be doubted, that crusading and Christian missions contributed to the spread of the German lnguage as well as a continous stream of German settlers in the Middle ages. But this was not Germanisation by intention. Of course it is quit different with the 19th century under Prussian rule or much worse under the Nazis. So these things should not be mingled.

An in my eyes it is also intentional distortion to reduce the very complex events in Bohemia after 1620, in which Germans und Czech speking Bohemians were involved as victims alike to just one sentence, that suggest a very simplified 19th centuty view, to which no modern Czech historian would subscribe!


I read "Minorities in the nation state" of my old history book, and, of course, the impression conveyed is differently than that Molobo tries to give, for it is neutral. Rather than insisting on proof of "torture", for example, and keeping the version hysterically, I'd better just translate and summarize the historical description. NightBeAsT 12:30, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Rather than insisting on proof of "torture", for example Which can be easly found on site of the school where the events took place, that had engaged in country wide event to remember the fight to preserve Polish identity by those children.Here is a detailed account of event made by one of the organisers of the ceremonies  : http://www.sdw.icpnet.pl/historia.html I will translate some fragments: German teachers resorted to physical violence and repressions.Children were held up in school for several hours.Two times at 2 and 13 May flogging was used. But the number of protestors grew. Main opponents and leaders of the children were Stanislaw Jerszynski and Smidowiczowna, who refused to be influenced by inspector Winter.They were severely beaten.

At first the German teachers tried persuasion.Rector Fedke said to the children that they are German and should be proud of it.Then one girl stood up and said "We are subjects of the German Reich, but we are Poles".Another student Bronisław Klimas asked how does the national flag look like said "Our flag is red and white, prussina white and black"Responding to the questions of teachers why they will not speak german on religion classes students said "We are Poles and we won't speak in German during religion"


"Words of prussian director of the schoold in Malych Bartodziejach under Bydgoszcz who wrote in school chronicle with arrogance "We Germans are afraid of nobody, and this means Poles also"


A usual visitor was inspector Winter,and he tried to broke the resistence of the children. Often he would ask "Who are you". The answer remained the same "We are Poles". He tried to tell them that they should not care if they speak polish or german.Children responded -"Why aren't German children learning polish then ? "One girl said "Chancellor Bulow said that every bird should sing how his beak grow, and we have polish beaks, so we want to sing in Polish". German teachers were outraged when instead of singing Preusse the children singed "Pole". Corporal punishment followed this.On another occasion teacher heard them speaking in Polish during a break. He told them "You can speak french, english or even chinese, but not polish language.


The mass execution of punishment came at Wrzesnia school at 20th of May 1901 at 10 when Winter came-the school inspector informed by rector Fedtke. 26 pupils were arrested and ordered to learn german songs, those that did were relased. The rest-14 resisted. Then Winter ordere more flogging -from four to eight strikes.


Prussian methods in the wrzesnia school were described by one patricipants of of the first strike Bronislawa Smidowicz Matuszewska-Flogging was used in parts.If a pupil didn't answer after several questions, he received three strikes.After that they made some promises as to his future.If that didn't work more punishment was threatened.Finally more questions were asked and if that didn't help, he received three more strikes, and such ones that skin on hands broke apart.


Laud screams and cries coming from inside gathered people before the school, that counted aprox. thousand people.People started protesting, and were even more outraged when beaten children appeared on the street crying.Teachers advised Winter to go out by the back door, but he felt(here's a quote) I was chosen to bravely defend this outpost and fight for the defence of honor of the threatend German rule


The crowd entered the school by force and 12-14 people went inside, where they demanded a stop to the beating of children. Despite this Winter told to continue flogging. As the crowd grew more violent he decided to stop.


This time prosecutor Lange spoke "the characteristic of this issues is that difference between Germans and Poles.The state had to intervene and defend german interest, defeat polishness.To achieve this means it had to use german language as teaching tool"

--Molobo 23:07, 30 October 2005 (UTC) Also:



Czeslaw Luczak "Od Bismarcka do Hitlera: Polsko-Niemieckie stosunki gospodarcze"Poznan 1988 ISBN 83-210-0767-8 There were ultra-nationalist, tolerated or even backed by government organisations, such as Allgemainer Deutscher Verband, later renamed to Alldeutsched Verband, which in 1914 had 18.000 members. In Posen there was founded in 1894 Verein zur Forderung des Deutschtums in den Ostmarken, later renamed into Deutscher Ostmarkverein, which in 1909 had 50.500, and in 1912 54.100 members, recruiting in vast majority from government clerks, teachers, officers etc - this organisation was called by Poles HaKaTa from names of the founders, Hansemann, Kennemann and Tiedemann. In 1911 it called eastern provinces of Germany "the battlefield" and was later called by H.U Wehler the precursor of the Nazi party (Wehler, Krisenherde des Kaiserreichs 1817-1918, Ottingen 1979, p-193-194) because of its pathological hatred of all things Polish (p 20-21) Governmetn founded in 1886 Konigliche Ausiedlungskommission which was funding the German settlement in eastern provinces, buying the land from Polish owners etc, there were also two other organisations, in 1904 in Posen Deutsche mittlestandkasse and 1906 in Danzig/Gdansk Bauernbank fur Westpreussen. This institutions were helped by different local organisation such as Landgesselschaften and local settlement commission Kleinsiedlungsgenossenschaften. In addition there was founded Deutscher Fursorgverein, Ruckwanderstelle and many, manyother organisation with one goal: buy as many land from Poles as possible and settle as many Germans as possible.

They were encouraging Germans from foreign lands, from Galicia, Vohlyn, Hungary, Romania etc etc. The Commision for Settlement in 1886-1918 settled in Posen and West Prussia 21.886 German families, counting in total 153.800 people, from which 21.683 took over their farms before the end of 1914. 25% of them came from abroad. Many families were also helped by other organisations, which helped them buy land etc etc. At first they were settled in countryside, hpoing that Germanisation of villages will cause the Germanisation of cities, later also German craftsmen were settled in cities, mainly by HKT which settled in Posen province about 30 doctors, craftsmen etc yearly. In addition to help fight "the Polish danger in eastern provinces" the workers in factories were also settled. In period 1903-1905 325 families came to Posen and West Prussia(1379) from abroad, including 209 fro Hungary, 89 from Galicia and 27 from Russia, and to 1912 in Posen area there were 961 workers settlements. (p20-25)

People working in eastern Prussian provinces received an addition to their salary, so called "Ostmarkenzulage". Some representants of local administration proposed counting the years of service by doubling, just like in the case of the war, for the clerks working in eastern provinces.

Interesting case: in 1850 many German catholic settlers from times of XVIII, while in 1914 they considered themselves Poles - there was from 50.000 to 75.000 such settlers. This was primary reason why vast majority of new settlers were protestants (21.014 families from settlers recruited by Commission of Settlement, that is 96,9%. Similarly 90% of German clerks and teachers were protestants (p26).

In total, the estimated number of Germans settled in 1871-1914 in Posen and West Prussia was higher than 250.000.

On other hand, the Polish teachers and clerks were assigned functions in western part of Germany. Such action was taken for few thousands of Poles, amongst whom was teacher 64 years old and clerks with 40 years of job. In addition German gvt paied for special agitation in press for encouraging emigration of Poles for abroad. The exceptional ways were removal of Poles by force, first "Poles who were suspected of anti-German activity" (3 February 1872 in Posen), and later of removal of all Poles without Prussian citizenship, with exception of few who received special allowance for stay. THe mass removals started with expelling 500 Jews from Berlin. Suprisingly, some "presidents" of provinces (of Silesia and West Prussia) say that this action has no sense, since many of those Poles have already found new families and they are living there for sometimes decades. On the other hand, "presidents" of Posen and Opole (region in middle Silesia) proposed the enlarged the scope of the action. In 1884 the law was passed for removal of all Poles, who had citizenship of other states, with exception of those, who were "by mistake" drafted to Prussian army or arrived before 1843 (in practice however those exceptions were not honoured). In total 43.943 Poles were destined for removal, but finally, because deficit of workforce the number was limited to about 32.000. Among the removed there were 9 to 10.000 Jews, who admitted (with few exceptions) the belonging to Polish nation.

That actions was protested by Polish envoys to German and PRussian parliaments, which were backed by many German (Espectially Alsatians) and Danish envoys. Many politicians, like Karol Liebknecht, Ludwig Windthorst, Rudolf Virchov etc described this actions as either inhuman or illegal. Finally PRussiann government stopped the action. Amongst the removed there was 2-years old orphan adopted by Polish family in Pleszow; 98-years old woman who arrived to her grandson to Gniezno. The families were partitioned by deporting those members who had no citizenship. The Poles "suspected for anti-German policy" were for example Pole from Wroclaw (Breslau) who celebrated victory of Sobieski at Vienna or few Polish students from university. OTOH Bismarck received also the letters with approval from Germans (Even from Bohemia!), and was backed by majority of German press.

Poles were almost always serving outside eastern provinces; it was believed, in words of Bismarck, that in such way they will "know the blessing of German civilisation" (p42). German ggovernment thought, that Polish recruits will be addicted to that civilisation and will stay in western parts of Germany and in consequence they will Germanise. But only 0,01% Polish men have not returned to theur families after the service.

German clergy was colportating amongst the kids the religious books in German, hpoing that they will Germanise whole families via their kids. Their actions were supported by German government, which few times gave special funds for many of them.

Some of the German actions were ridiculous: The German clerks demanded that Polish parents will gave their newborn kids German names, and they were sometimes even changing them without consciense of parents; so Jan was written as Johann etc. German goverment also was warning the staying Polish teachers that "cultivating Polish language" in PRIVATE homes could result in deportation. Ostmarkenverein was postulating, but fortunately without success, the planned Germanisation of Polish orphans and kids from broken families. (p45)

The German view on Poles were quite simple: Poles were on lower level of civilisation. E.g. A.Dix, German writer, in 1898 said that "Slavs are typical representants of proletariat, citizens of fifth class", and "Germans in east should be everywhere the masters". T.Schon, president of West PRussia, wrote, that main task of his administration is to "turn ex-slaves Slavs into people and Germans". Even Wilhelm II said on occasion that "Slavs are born to serve other nations". (p 45)


The policy of German government brought the desired results. In the years 1870-1910 the Prussian official statistics noted 70% of raise of Germans in West Prussia and 58% in Posen, 12,2% in East Prussia and 56,3% in Opole. For comaprison, in Posen number of Poles raised by 27,8%, in Opole in 32,4%, and was lowered in Eastern Prussia by 12% and in Western Prussia by 5,8%. All the censuses are generally in low esteem by Polish historians, because they forced Poles to declare themselves as bilingual or using only German, for example all Polish soldiers were counted as Germans. In Namyslow count in SIlesia in 1910 it was reported that only those Poles who admitted that they know no German were listed as Poles, and the rest as Germans. he separate case is so called "battle for land". It was started by Flotwell, who however was able to bought only 30 large Polish estates. The legal basis for later actions was 1886 June law of "strengthening the Germanness in provinces West Prussia and Posen", in short "Ansiedlungsgesetz", the Settlement law. Those act, plus later novelisations (including 1912 "the law of strengthening Germanness in some parts of the country" etc) included for example that Poles in countryside can build new buildings only after receving speciall allowance from German administration, which effectively caused that Poles could not build new buildings (famous Drzymala wagon case), made legal basis for confiscating Polish land and allotted large sums for buying out olish land, e.g 100.000 mk in 1886. The funds of Settlement Comission achieved 955 millions mk, plus another funds from economical activity, in total about 1423 millions mk. However, because Poles - as results of well-known "longest war of modern Europe" were boycotting the action en masse, the commission finally was mainly buying the land from.. Germans (the total of 71.2% in 1910 and 1913 71.3%). Frustrated Germans: the organisations, profesors such as Otto Hotzsch, local admi nistration etc postulated that the law should be passed which would allow to buy the land without the agreement from Polish owner. Such law was passed in 1908, march 20. Protests from around the world (the actions initiated by Polish writer Henryk Sienkiewicz, who convinced many intellectuals to sign letters of protests, the protests by some Germans etc) caused that first actions based on such law were in 1912, when 4 Polish estates were bought despite the protests of the owners. The First World War stopped such actions. (p52-5Cool

The new settlers received credits for new buildings and starting new life, etc etc. Sometimes the Commission was using low-moral Poles, who were buying the land from other Poles who otherwise were refusing to sell it to Germans; The official end of the Comission was 1 June 1924.

In addition there were other, non-government (though with government's blessing and backing) institutions which were giving credits on favourable terms, buing land and encouraging German settlement, and so called "land organisations" (Landgesellchaft) which were creating new large farms, with sepcific official goal of separating Poles and dissoluting Polish "element". (p28-66)

As mentioned earlier, Poles needed special allowance for making new building in countryside. In 1905-1913 in region of Bydgoszcz 78% of all petitions were refused (1904, 10 VIII, ansiedlungsnovelle). In some regions Poles had to provide the documents testifying, that they won't sell the building to other Pole, or that their investment is not violating the "settlement law modification" (mentioned ansiedlungsnovelle).

The name "battle for land" came becasue Poles started to defend, the organisations for helping were created by Poles, and both Germans and Poles tried to buy as much land as possible. The successes of Polish private organisation resulted in protulates by German newspapers for passing the law (Berliner Borsen-Zeitung 22 May 1907) which would made illegall the assistance to buying the land by private institutions. Suprisingly, the most sold land came from rich Poles, while the ones who were most active in propaganda and less eager to sell the land were sometimes the poorest ones...

As the result, in Posen majority of rural area (almost 60%) was in the hands of Germans (p74)

The German and public banks were refusing providing the credit for Poles, either directly or by making conditions which were highly discouraging, especially when compared to conditions offered to Germans. Sometimes they were gicing the credit, only suddenly demand everything back. Simultanously goverment was backing favourable credits for "strenghtening the German economy" in eastern provinces. The government was subsidising the self-help organisation, but since 1908 only on conditions, that such organisation will remove all Polish members. (p81)

There were also non-returnable subsidies paid by government (Niederlassungsbeihilfe), organisations such as HKT etc - all of which should result in limiting Polish economy and domination of Germans in economy of eastern provinces.

German soldiers were OFFICIALLY forbidden from goinf to Polish friseurs, German public institutions from delegating works and repairments to Polish companies etc. German organisations were printing works such as "Guide for German shops in Posen".

OTOH, Polish organisation had their meetings monitored and sometimes disbanded because of using of Polish lanugage; they could were refused from hiring the rooms etc etc. The economical boycott was from both sides. Both for the Poles and Germans it was patriotic duty to buy only from their nationalities. It was started by Poles, true, and later the German slogans were usually simply translations of earlier Polish ones, but the Poles, contrary to Germans, had not the backing of government. (p90) --Molobo 23:07, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

www.echoed.com.au/chronicle/1902/jan-feb/world.htm GERMANISATION OF POLES

LONDON, Jan. 2. The international meeting of socialists now being held at Brussels has condemned the hypocrisy of the Prussians for the barbarous methods they are pursuing for Germanisation of Poles, while the Prussians censured the British methods in the war in South Africa. (SMH, January 4, 1902) --Molobo 18:52, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

http://www.muzarp.poznan.pl/archweb/archweb_eng/Publications/dwarch/index_dwa.html#r1_1

Jarmila Kaczmarek, Andrzej Prinke

(Poznań Archaeological Museum) 1. Wielkopolska in the first half of the nineteenth century (to 1857). Foundations of the creation of two archaeologies in Poznań 1.1. Political conditioning. Wielkopolska under the rule of the King of Prussia. Germanisation of the state (government and officials) Fragments :

Settlers from Bamberg, arriving in the eighteenth century in the area of Poznań). The Prussians built their own feeling of national values and conviction of the civilising mission of the Prussian state. Seeing on the newly taken terrain Polish gentry in oriental style sashes, another language, which at times they referred to as "the rotten local language", another culture and system of values, they looked on the new country practically as nineteenth century Europeans at "wild people from the bush" (Łukasiewicz 1995, p. 44), or as the English at Hindus and Chinese. It was obvious to them that the new country should be civilised and Germanised. Initially Germanisation meant integration regarding law and politics with the remaining parts of Prussia, or Germanisation of the state structure. The Prussian administration, law and legal system were introduced. In truth from the beginning Germans were favoured, but the government allowed, that Poles as jointly subjected "brothers of the Slavonic language" might retain their language and habits. This did not hinder the many Germans coming to the province, in their utter conviction of their own superiority, and so it was obvious to them that soon the Poles would civilise themselves, which for them was synonymous with adopting the German language and culture.


The defeat of the November Uprising, which broke out in 1830 in the Russian Partition, was exploited by the Prussian authorities to abandon the policy of peaceful co-existence. As soon as 1832 General Grolmann devised a secret plan, envisaging integration (or Germanisation) of the province, including forced buying up of estates, colonisation by German peasants, integration of Jews from Germany, transferring the Polish gentry and civil servants to other German provinces, strict subjection of the church to the state and abolition of the Polish language in schools. The catholic clergy and the gentry were acknowledged as the most dangerous enemies of Germanisation; it was assumed that the peasants could be won over to the policy of the Prussian government. This plan was effected over the next decade with varying determination, hence periods of repression interwoven with periods of liberalisation.

From the third decade of the nineteenth century, one may observe the first symptoms of the Wielkopolska community organising itself, during which, generally the Germans had less problems with the establishment of organisations of a German character, whilst the Poles in general had to fight hard to establish their own. For the government regarded them, certainly correctly, as a symptom of Polish defence against Germanisation.

From 1858 the Germans took up the idea of the unification of Germany under the Prussian aegis. For Wielkopolska Province it meant an intensification of the policy of Germanisation and increasing the privileges for Germans. The final purpose was the Germanisation of society by the elimination of the Polish language and culture. The Germanisation of elementary schools was begun, though it proceeded with difficulty because of the lack of sufficient numbers of teachers knowing the German language. In 1867 the Grand Duchy of Poznań was incorporated into the North German Union.

The victory over France in 1871 caused an increase of nationalism in Germany. From then the Germanising of Greater Poland meant the dislodging and paralysing of the "Polish element" (mainly gentry and clergy as the most aware opponents). Combating opposition against unification, Chancellor Bismark declared the policy known as the Culture Battle. In 1872 schools of a religious persuasion were closed, and the state took up the supervision of education. The estate of the Church was transferred to the supervision of laypersons, monastic orders were dissolved, and the paragraphs of the Prussian constitution assuring the freedom of the Catholic Church were removed. In Wielkopolska the Culture Battle took on a nationalistic and sectarian character. Mainly specially chosen teachers and officials were engaged in Germanisation, there was even a fund for prizes for Germanisation results.

When at the end of the 'seventies the Culture Battle action became milder, this did not apply to Wielkopolska. The failure of Germanisation caused the German philosopher E. Hartmann in 1885 to proclaim the slogan - eradication of Slavs on the German territory. The President of the Bydgoszcz Regency, Tiedemann, in 1886 prepared a new Eastern policy programme: Denkschrift betr. einige Massregeln zur Germanisierung der Provinz Posen. During which, he drew attention to the fact that ordinary German inhabitants of the province were unwilling to engage till now in the propagation of Germanness, for they felt uncertain and alien in Greater Poland. The conviction of centuries of settlement in Wielkopolska was to give the German inhabitants self-assurance and convince them of the correctness of elimination of Slavs from the province terrain.

In 1886 the Clearance Commission was established to buy up Polish estates. The funds of the Commission were continually increased over the following years, but the final effect was poor. In truth it had succeeded in increasing the overall number of Germans in the province; however the number of Poles as a result of higher natural increase had increased still more, especially on the towns. The price of colonisation was also high; the creation of one German farm cost the government and taxpayers (equally the Polish) 60,000 marks (for comparison a labourer for physical work in Poznań was paid 0.3 marks per hour). In the following years the Polish language was completely abolished in ordinary schools (with the teaching of religion), which provoked strikes by Polish children, quelled by beatings.

After a short period of thaw in the years 1890-1894, the government returned to the policies of forced Germanisation. In 1894 on the initiative of German landowners - Hansemann, Kennemann and Tiedemann, the Organisation for the Propagation of Germanness in the Eastern Borders (Verein zur Förderung des Deutschtums in den Ostmarken) was established, called for short Hakata, after the first letters of the surnames of the founders. The organisation demanded the abolition of the use of any Polish at all from schools, the prohibition of the use of Polish at meetings and the closure of Polish newspapers. It joined the struggle for forcing through the proclamation of new laws on evicting Poles and bringing in Germans. In 1904 the settlement law was changed from the aspect of the battle with the greatest threat to German culture - Polish peasants. In 1908 the law of forcible buy out of Polish estates for the needs of German colonisation was announced (it came into force from 1912 to 1914, only 4 estates were expropriated). In order to completely stop the Polish parcelling out of land, from 1914 the government introduced first right of purchase (for the government) and of granting consent for subdivision by local authorities.

The policy of discrimination against all classes of Polish society and the Catholic Church caused the acceleration of the process of developing the sense of national awareness among the Polish peasantry, consolidation of all classes of Poles and a growth of anti German bias among them. In the struggle to endure Poles had to learn good organisation and managed to effectively resist Germanisation. The slogan brought forth in the time of the greatest intensification of economic pressure "Your own to your own by your own" not only had an economic note, but also a cultural one. On the other hand, the permanent increase by the government of the privileges of German inhabitants often fuelled a sense of menace for the Poles and the bringing in of anti Polish orientated officials caused a growth of anti Polish feeling among the Germans. In this situation, in spite of periodic attempts at cooperation, also in science, including archaeology, Poznań began to have two faces - Polish and German.

--Molobo 19:15, 31 October 2005 (UTC)



Rather than insisting on proof of "torture", for example Which can be easly found on site of the school where the events took place, that had engaged in country wide event to remember the fight to preserve Polish identity by those children.Here is a detailed account of event made by one of the organisers of the ceremonies : http://www.sdw.icpnet.pl/historia.html--Molobo 19:15, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

I deleted the translations because when I said "Rather than insisting on proof of 'torture'", you should have looked the term "rather than" up in a dictionary, and it does not mean "also", but "instead of". I cannot stand this senseless source-flood that tries to force through a statement to make the text biased. When you again and again try to paint the gloomiest, one-sided, most biased picture without stepping over the line of factual inaccuracy, it's best to just open the history book and get a sober impression by Pr.s and Dr.s of history. If this picture is different, it is usually best to shrugg off Mo's POVpushing and paint the picture the way the history book did. In case Molobo might accuse me of deleting his source despite a possible copyright violation, you can read the source here. NightBeAsT 19:30, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
I can hardly imagine how anyone can consider Germanisation policy being "neutral". It's hard to believe that German textbooks would provide such a biased picture. --Lysy (talk) 19:41, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
~Sigh~ nor can I. "I read "Minorities in the nation state" of my old history book, and, of course, the impression conveyed is differently than that Molobo tries to give, for it is neutral." =) NightBeAsT 19:30, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Than the impression is wrong, sorry. You can't argue historical facts. Molobo's proposal are not perfect, nor written in a good style, but you can't ignore the sources he cites. For goodness' sake I can't believe that textbooks in German schools do not talk about Germanisation in context of violent Kulturkampf organised and led by the German state and civilians. Boyau 00:32, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Frankly, I'm lost. I don't even have idea what are you trying to dispute here :-( Do I understand correctly that you believe that German policy agains Poles was neutral ? --Lysy (talk) 21:12, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Oh, uh, sorry for the late reply. No, what I had meant was that the history books are neutral and academic while this article has become a reproachful hysteria. For example, it is interesting why the text speaks of the Germanisation in Prussia when in reality there were no particular difficulties of assimilation of Poles in the Prussian state until the foundation of the Empire. (shouldn't that be mentioned in the text??) Only parts of the aristocracy sought a restoration of the Polish state. On the whole the people considered themselves as Prussians. When the German Empire was founded it suddenly the population included about 5.5% Poles. Amid the national awakening, the Germans wanted the people in the German Empire to be German too, in other words the others should adopt their language and culture. (Interestingly, the text is limited to the Poles. Danes? People of Alsace-Lorraine? And what were the motives?) Also, the text doesn't want to explain the vicious circle of measures by the state and counter-measures. The more the state wanted to Germanise the Poles, the stronger became the Polish agitation and the more the state wanted to Germanise them and new measures came. Actually forced Germanisation resulted in a longing for national identity. As for the torture, I believe there were only very few such events, weren't they? "In occupied Poland its estimated that a number ranging from 50.000 to 200.000 children were kidnaped from their families in order to be germanised[3].It's estimated that at least 10.000 of them were murdered in the process, and only 10-15 % returning to their families after the war" is actually a pretty pathetic attempt to mingle Germanisation with the Holocaust. So at least 10 000 Polish children died by adopting the German language and culture??? Also you get very little to know about Germanisation before the 19th century. NightBeAsT 19:32, 15 November 2005 (UTC) So at least 10 000 Polish children died by adopting the German language and culture??? No because kidnapped children were transported in cattle wagons without food or water for days, and those unfit for Germanisation murdered.Something that as usual is missing from your "history books".--Molobo 22:01, 15 November 2005 (UTC) For example, it is interesting why the text speaks of the Germanisation in Prussia when in reality there were no particular difficulties of assimilation of Poles in the Prussian state until the foundation of the Empire It seems your history books lack information about Polish troops liberating Poznan from Prussian rule in 1806, or the putting higher taxes on Poles by Frederick of Prussia, his orders to ban Polish language, and confiscation of property of polish monesteries, or the fact that that Poles in Prussian partition took part in organised resistance against the occupation since 1839, death sentences for Polish activists in 1846 like Karol Libelt, or the Polish uprising in Grand Poland in 1848, or the National Comitee, or the disarming of prussian soldiers by Polish peasants durign said uprising, the four Polish units made from peasents called Kosynierzy that were battles with them at Książ in 29 VI of 1848(victory by by Prussian army, major Florian Dąbrowski dies), the Polish victory over Prussian units at Miroslawiec on 30 VI, and many, many other things NB that happened before German Empire was created. --Molobo 22:15, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Why do you

Removed information on Nazi programs of Germanisation including kidnapping of children ? --Molobo 14:21, 9 November 2005 (UTC) http://www.dac.neu.edu/holocaust/Hitlers_Plans.htm#GERMANIZATION%20OF%20POLISH%20CHILDREN Already during the early days of the occupation deportations were undertaken of Polish families from the annexed territories, particularly those who had settled there after the First World War, to the Government General. Only those people were left whom the Germans imagined would be suitable for Germanization. In their case the process of Germanization was facilitated by registering them on the German National Lists (Volksliste) with particular attention being paid to the children. Children recognized as racially valuable were subjected to Germanization usually by way of the Volksliste. If one of the parents refused to be entered on the Volksliste, the children and the other parent were registered to enable the Germanization to be carried out. However, there were many cases when children were compulsorily removed from their parents. Even before the Volksliste was formally introduced, Himmler, in a decree of September 12, 1940, on examination and selection of people in the annexed territories, had given orders to remove children from parents who rejected "re-Germanization." Later (Feb. 16, 1942) these orders were extended to include parents who were considered "especially compromised politically." Even in cases where the parents had been put down in the fourth group of the Volksliste, this latter order of Himmler's called for the removal of their children if it turned out that the parents were exerting an "unfavourable influence" on their children's Germanization. They were then placed with German families and institutions. This order was later made to apply to persons in the third group as well. Thus, in some cases, even registration on the Volksliste did not protect parents from the abduction of their children. TOP Just a fragment. --Molobo 14:21, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I have heard of that program as well. Olessi 19:01, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Oh please, Molobo! You know the revert was rather focused on your other changes (or rather revert). And before you're accusing me, accuse yourself. You're doing the same eg[1]. NightBeAsT 19:32, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

What are you talking about? I never erased information about Nazi atrocities like you did. --Molobo 21:57, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure what is it that you have against anon's additions. Considering Germanisation as cultural assimilation, his changes are not too far-fetched and I therefore reworked his version. As for the hypocrisy in the comment above against my complete revert of your version, you've just been guilty of that as well. At least I do not think that the additions added by another anon (I marked them with bold letters below) are that correct.[2]

"In the process of Germanization, the number of Polish-speaking people declined steadily:
1818 - over 90% of population
1852 - 65%
1861 - 58%
1890 - 46%
1900 - 33.5% (Prussian census)
1990 - 19%
2012 - 0% (to do)"

Sciurinæ 07:43, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

My objections to the recent additions are that they are kept in a form of a dispute, that is (a) inappropriate for the article ("so this ... thus that ... etc.), (b) not clear what is disputed (e.g. why there should be any reluctance to offer the crown to a German speaking ruler ? why is it importand what was the intention of the Habsburgs ? etc.) The article should contain conclusions, based on cited sources and not discussion of the facts, which is apprpriate for the talk page. --Lysytalk 08:36, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disgusted

I'm disgusted with this anonymous Polish-German pushing that's happening in the article since yesterday. It's definitely not healthy both for the article and for the editors themselves. Any ideas of how this could be handled ? --Lysytalk 16:58, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Honestly, the page is lost. There have been more than a dozen edits implementing the sentence "Polish players face discrimination and insults from Germanic sportstmen as shown by the example of Dietmar Kühbauer who refused to hold an interview with Adam Ledwon, saying he "stinks of Poland"." Sciurinæ 20:27, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sentence Removed

This fact contributes much to Germanize the Poles, as they have to learn German to attend the services.

Not true. Mass was given in Latin until the 1960s. I've deleted the above sentence accordingly.

http://www.unavoce.org/news/2005/St.%20Agnes.html http://www.unavoce.org/news/2006/Buffalo.htm


Nonsense!

Preaching alsway was in the local language!

-to the above comment' - mass was in latin until the 1960s for the catholic church.

[edit] Cleanup rationale

I just wanted to state for the record that the cleanup tag was added because this was apparently translated & posted from the german wikipedia. Most of it was passable aside from a couple missed "und"s, but it likely needs to be rewritten inasmuch as the grammar. Don't remove the cleanup tag unless you've read through the entire thing, not just a glance (as has been the case some other articles). Also, if at all possible, we should have links to comparable web pages in English for the sources cited here. Darkildor 22:14, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recent changes by 131.173.252.9

I've been following this editor for the better part of today, and he seems to be of the opinion that there's a great deal of POV pro-polish or anti-german material in some articles concerning this controversial subject. While I cannot under any circumstances agree with his blankings and drastic, undiscussed/unjustified changes to the articles, I do agree that, as someone with no background in the subject, the language used is exceedingly unflattering toward Germany. If anyone can provide sources or evidence to justify what would otherwise be POV language, I'd like to see it added to ensure a NPOV in this subject area. --Kuzaar 06:01, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

The language used is exeedingly unflattering toward Germany? This does not refer to present day Gemany, you know!! But the policies of the German rulers and actions of the German people of the XIX cent., and they deserve 'unflattering language'. If you're not familiar with the topic, read some sources, and then say what is your opinion. Memory about these events is very well preserved in Poland (not srprised it is not so in Germany), as this is part of the opposition to outrageous antipolish violent policies that were imposed on Polish people during the 123-years of non-existence of Polish state. All these events have been countlessly recalled by popular history books, literature, published diaries, in film etc. The article, although not free from mistakes, presents historical facts obvious to EVERY Polish person. Disregarding this, you disregard the memory of all the victims of those crimes! Boyau 00:32, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Move back to Germanisation

This article started out as Germanisation. It was recently moved to Germanization by User:Darkildor without giving any reason/no discussion, thereby violating the MoS. The move should be undone. An administrator will have to do the move, because the target page has an edit history. It's very similar to the recent Organization-move, this time the other way around. SpNeo 13:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Silesia under Frederick the Great

Can someone please cite sources that state that Frederick the Great "germanised" Silesia. As Silesia was already a part of the HRE at this time, that is to say, it was already recognized as German land, with a majority German population. nowhere but on wikipedia have I ever read anything about Frederick the Great "germanising" populations of his land. This looks like the article is meant to demonize a respected German historical figure while advocating the forced eviction of Germans from their native homelands by the Soviets/Polish after WWII.


--Jadger 19:54, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Germanising does not refer to landownership, but to violent policies of Kulturkampf. Demanding that Polish people stop using Polish language and will become German - and the fashion in which this was done. I see this topic causes lot of controversy, I'll look up some sources, and post it here. Boyau 00:32, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Delete everything + leave a stub

I suggest that most of the content in this article be deleted. Or all of it. The article should define the term "germanisation" as it is widely understood and stand apart from trying to describe the historical eventst etc. as these will always be subject to a neutrality dispute. Support or oppose? ackoz 14:28, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I wanted to suggest the exact same thing. Reasons: The article seems to be mainly about the history of Poland and Germany, and in this history it concentrates on how polish or how german the eastern regions of germany were until the end of WW2 and how they supposedly came to be so. *This* is a very complicated matter and an article about it can NEVER be NPOV as long as it is called Germanisation, because the term itself is biased in this context.
So there should be an arcticle called Germanisation that can stub-like contain the introductory sentences of the current one and (if one really wants it) another article called something like 'the ethnic composition of north-eastern europe from the middle ages until WW2'. But beware: This article will never be undisputed NPOV because after a lot of wars and a lot of cruelty done by and suffered by any ethnicity over the course of hundreds of years, there are a lot of different views on history... 84.169.235.171 23:13, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
So is the term Holocaust biased? No, because it refers to historical facts. So does germanisation. Boyau 00:32, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
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