Talk:German battleship Bismarck

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i want to add how the bismark esccaped from the suffolk and POW after the P.eugen had escaped. i think the way it was done was so clever it deserves to be explained. anybody have anything against it please let your voices be heard. slakbas

It was not Captain Lindemann who foolishly sent the long signal, but Admiral Lütjens. [Arthur Morgan] i agree. i changed it

1-Can we cut down the size of this image, it's taking up the whole page and slopping into the margins. 2-Why isn't this article just called Bismarck or Bismarck (battleship)? -- Zoe

I still question the title of this article. -- Zoe

I would support a move to Bismarck, with pointers to Otto and that cold place. As far as I know, nothing of encyclopedic-article importance is called simply "Bismarck" except the battleship -- and if someone really wants to write about the the pastry, it can be disambiguated. --the Epopt 01:51 Mar 19, 2003 (UTC)
Does no-one realise that the ship was named after a 19th Century German statesman of great historical importance? Otto von Bismarck should definately have priority over the battleship.
I had somewhat of a preference for German battleship Bismarck, partly because it looks better; to me the parenthetical disambiguators look like an unplanned afterthought ("oh yeah, I guess there is more than one kind of Bismarck"). But more importantly Bismarck (battleship) goes against the naming conventions that have already been set down in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ships) (I mention that instead of Wikipedia:WikiProject Ships because this particular point is still only described in the naming conventions article...), and a consistent naming scheme is a big timesaver for those of us trying to get all the ship articles to link together correctly. Stan 01:04 Mar 20, 2003 (UTC)
I left this question here for weeks and nobody commented. I go ahead and change it, and it gets attacked. -- Zoe
Your question was answered at length in the naming standards article and in the WikiProject. If you are interested help write about the navies of the world, please join us there. --the Epopt 01:19 Mar 20, 2003 (UTC)
How am I supposed to keep up with all of these Wikiprojects? A link here might have been nice. -- Zoe
I'll take a little blame; I didn't think about advertising the new wikiproject because I thought only the couple of enthusiasts would care. To paraphrase the esteemed Dr Wirtiglieben, "Vut gut eez a Vikiproject eef nobuddy knowz about eet!?" Stan 06:12 Mar 20, 2003 (UTC)
Please only place "adverts" for WikiProjects on talk pages. --mav
Oh, sure, I totally agree. -- Zoe

I'm not sure about this new title, I think most people searching for "Bismarck" are looking for the chancellor and that this should redirect to him. - SimonP 01:32, Aug 9, 2003 (UTC)

There is really no need for the extensive discussion about the name of the article, "DKM Bismarck" was its official designation. "German battleship Bismarck" is clumsy. --GeneralPatton 03:31, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Says what authority? You never responded to my query on your talk page, so I'm moving them all back. Stan 15:15, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
BTW, I think it's rather interesting that the German WP doesn't use "DKM" at all. Stan 15:18, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
While I respect the need to adhere to Wikipedia's naming policy, I agree that "German battleship Bismarck" is clumsy. Someone browsing through the site is most likely to search for "Bismarck"; e.g. searching for "Bismarck Prince" or "Prince Bismarck" correctly locates "Otto von Bismarck" the German Chancellor (but "Bismarck Chancellor" or "Chancellor Bismarck" does not!)
With reference to the other 'Bismarcks' on the 'Bismarck' disambiguation page, you would expect "Bismarck battleship" to follow alphabetically after "Bismarck archipelago". Hence surely "Bismarck battleship" is the best and most-consistent title? That's what would appear in an index to a book. Patrick bigpad

"KMS Bismarck": an anonymous contributor has amended the first paragraph by adding the prefix "KMS" to the ship name (which he/she has also done to many of the pages of other Kriegsmarine heavy units). I asked that person (nicely!) what was their source for this, as others [above] say that the official designation was "DKM Bismarck", which I note is disputed.

I'd propose reverting this as it raises old questions that aren't crucial and doesn't add much to the article. But I don't want to become the person who always reverts edits, although the article is well advanced and doesn't need much more added to it (IMHO). What do others think? bigpad 21:36, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

There's no DKM or KMS designation for german ships of that time, neither official nor unofficial. --Denniss 21:58, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

"though alternate scenarios are available as to the cause of the cordite fire. Hood burned catastrophically,..."

Really? First notice that a explosive like cordite is refered has caugth fire, also Hood burned? it looks like more a explosion ! Cuye 21:07, 3 Sep 2003 (UTC)

The Hood was seen on fire shortly before she exploded. The assumpution was that the fire sonehow reached the magazine and caused the explosion. So the fire did burn 'catastrophically', it caused a castropby. David J James 9th October 2006

Ironically, part of what sank Bismarck was the fact that the Fairey Swordfish and Albacore biplane torpedo bombers were too slow for her guns to adequately track.

This, I believe, is a myth. It is the case that some British pilots noticed AA fire bursting in front of them, presumably not believing how slow they were going. However, I had a discussion about this point on an internet discussion group about WW2, never got a clear answer. Nobody was able to give an authority for this, or even explain what technical feature of an AA gun would make it incapable of hitting a plane below a certain speed. PatGallacher 14:17, 2005 Feb 8 (UTC)

Because the Bismarck outgunned the obsolete Hood, the Hood needed to close quickly to bring its inferior guns to bear. However whilst doing this the Hood was fatally hit and quickly sank. I'd take issue with this. Firstly, the Hood was not obselete, thought it was not cutting edge. Secondly, the Hood and the Bismarck had very similar firepower (although German gunnery was more accurate of course). The issue was the Hood's thinner armour (particularly its deck armour), and it was this which lead the hood to try and close with thee Bismarck as quickly as possible, not a disparity in firepower. Cadr

No comments, so I've edited the page. Cadr

[edit] HMS Minerve

The order of battle includes HMS Minerve. I can find no evidence of such a ship in World War II. Could this have been the Free French submarine of that name? Gdr 17:57, 2004 Nov 21 (UTC)

[edit] U-Boat

An anonymous user has deleted the word "wrongly" where it said that the British thought they had detected a U-Boat, so calling off the rescue of Bismarck survivors. Do they have any authority for this? I will check my source, Kennedy's "Pursuit", but if nobody responds in a reasonable time I will revert. PatGallachertalk 16:56, 2005 Jan 31 (UTC)

I am not a regidtered user. I am not quite sure what the whole article said. However, the British did not wrongly assume the presence of a U-Boat and in fact there was two U-boats in the area. One, even though I can't remember its u-boat designation, was sent to retrieve Bismarcks war diary, but never made it.

The other question is, if the U-Boat would really have attacked a ship, who was trying to rescue thousands of german sailors. I really doubt that any U-Boat Captain would have done that.

Firstly the Royal Navy had plenty of reason to believe that a German U-Boat commander would be ruthless enough to attack an enemy ship even rescuing German sailors. U-boats had already attacked unarmed liners full of civilians. Secondly the U-boat might not in the open sea realise that the Royal Navy ship was attempting rescue operations and thirdly the standing orders from London were to NEVER expose capital ships to unnecessary U-boat attack.

Incidently the same thing happened in the Falklands war, when the General Belgrano was sunk by the Royal Navy and it's escorts left the area a as soon as possible leaving survivors in life boats. David J James 9th October 2006


If I recall corectly there WAS u-boat around there. I can't figure out were I read it, maybe in the background of silent-hunter 3. Anyhow, from what I remember there was at lest 1 u-boat around, but he was out of torpedoes. Has for attacking .... It's maybe a bit sucidal to make a sub attack with all the destroyers around, but a battleship is a really intresting target. I'll try to find some source.--Muniam 11:33, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

There I go....U-boat.net, normally reliable. http://uboat.net/boats/u556.htm and http://uboat.net/boats/u74.htm. Should we add that to the article? P.S. see the outher section on u-boat.--Muniam 11:40, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] number of survivors from Hood

In this article it says only 3 survived when Bismarck brought down Hood, and the article Cruiser says it was 4... Does anyone knows what the correct number was?

It was definitely three. PatGallacher 14:17, 2005 Feb 8 (UTC)

Bradford in The Mighty Hood gives an explanation. It seems that the so-called 4th survivor was really the brother of someone who served in the Hood, and who got in trouble with the law in some way or other.

PAUL

3 survivors. Article gets #crew wrong, by sources I've seen: it was 1419. Is there something new, or is that a mistake? 01:26, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
The figure given in the article, 1418 (1415 killed, 3 survived), is correct. Check out the superb HMS Hood Association website [1], which also lists each of them indiviually [2] John Moore 309 22:01, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] U-Boats were in the area.

As far as it has been ascertained, U-74 (Kptlt. Kentrat) and U-556 (Kptlt. Wohlfahrt) were in the area. U-556 was Bismarck's "guardian" so to speak, and during the battle found himself with a perfect firing solution on both Ark Royal and Renown, but he was out of torpedos. U-74 took over from U-556 and at 10:36 heard the Bismarck sinking. They found a lifeboat at 19:30 with 3 Bismarck men in it. U-74 continued the search for 2 days then returned home.

I am not a registered user and I am adding to what the above user has put down. U-556 was assingned to retrieve Bismarcks war diary, but didn't reach the ship in time. The captain of the U-boat was in visual range of the Bismarck when she sank and saw the ship go down through his pariscope. Both the U-556 and U-74 were lost later in the war.


[edit] Jewish Officers

I wonder if this article should mention the fact that several of the Bismark's officers, including Admiral Lütjens were Jewsih/part Jewish. I think its a historical curiosity that not many people are probably aware of. With some digging I can get the names of those who were, but what do people think about mentioning it in the article? I assume some people might find it unsettling or too controversial.TruthCrusader

Not unsettling, not controversial but not relevant to the article. GraemeLeggett 08:51, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
This is the first I have heard of this, it strikes me as unlikely (although "part Jewish" is open to interpretation). If you have some hard information raise it under the Günther Lütjens article. PatGallacher 10:31, 2005 July 22 (UTC)

Its not unlikey, its fact. However, it probably belongs under the Lutjens article. TruthCrusader

Truth Crusader, please provide proof of this. I have read many well descriptive biographies on Lutjens, and this is the first time I have heard of him being half-Jewish. It is true that Lutjens did not support Hitlers Arian policies, nor did he inforce the Arian poicies in the navy. He did not condone the imfamous Kristallnacht incident, and wore a World War 1 dirk and saluted his superiors in the old imperialistic style rather than saluting the Nazi salute. This may have been why people may have thought of him as half-Jewish, but still your the first to bring such claim to light as far as I know. Capt.Nero

It is fact. Lutjens' grandmother was a jewish woman. Lutjens' son,, now an old man himself, spoke on the National Geographic Channel TV's Sinking the Bismarck documentary and described how the german navy had many jewish or jewish-related officers among its ranks during WWI, and many of those were retained even after Hitler because the need for skilled and experienced veteran officers. He said literally it was possible to be a jew in the nazi navy and many of them even survived the war.

The flag shown in this article is incorrectly. It's the on before 1935. Or do you just don't want to show the swastica?

The Neuremberg laws allowed full citizenship to anyone with 1 grandparent of Jewish origin. Because his grandmother was Jewish means nothing. Only SS members were required to have no Jewish ancestors. This was not the case in the other military branches.

[edit] Disputed reasons?

Someone on September 10 made a change regarding the signals and the plotting on the map as to being 'reasons to be disputed'. What were the disputed reasons? What are your references for other than using the wrong kind of map?

My source is mainly Kennedy, although a more recent book on the Bismarck says something about this, I could give you a lengthy quote. PatGallacher 18:33, 2005 September 1 (UTC)

[edit] "Controversy"

From the "Controversy" heading:

"This question of British or German national pride gained propaganda status after the Hood's extremely shredded and mangled remains were shown on TV, which many English people considered humiliating in the face of Bismarck's easily recognizable and relatively well-preserved hull."

Is this really necessary? It doesn't seem to make sense, and I find the idea of "many English people" finding this 'humiliating' rather bizzare, especially since the programme was apparently shown around 2001. --El Zilcho 17:26, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I remember the programme well but did not see anything in the media coverage about the English feeling "humiliated" by the respective conditions of the wrecks. It was certainly humiliating at the time that the Hood was destroyed within five minutes of engaging the enemy, which is why they devoted so many resources to sinking the Bismark, but in 2001 I suspect most people would take the view (i) it was terrible what happened to the Hood, but the condition of the wrecks is less important than the fact that they are both at the bottom of the sea; and (ii) the war was won, which is somewhat more important. Anyway, there needs to be a source for this claim (how many is "many" anyway? Only English, or perhaps Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish as well?). There also needs to be a reference to Ballard's reported views about the documentary. After all, at least the British film makers went to the trouble of asking the German navy's permission to search for the wreck.


Yes it needs to be edited out completely, the Hood blew up and sank in two pieces, that much was known before any footage was shown, so seeing a mangled wreck at the bottom of the sea was no surprise, let alone a humilitating one. Editited or removed would be the best course, unless someone can verify that many English were humilited. I'm English and not humiliated, but rather remember the lives of over 3000 people that were lost, in one episode of WW2.

[edit] Question about when the Captain died

The article states that it was Captain Lindemann who gave the order to abandon ship. Is that really true? I thought he was killed along with Admiral Lutjens and all of the other senior officers when a shell struck and detonated on the ship's bridge. Does anyone know for sure when the senior officers died? Seems certain that had he been alive to give the order to abandon ship he would have survived the engagement and have been rescued.

According to Ludovic Kennedy's book "Pursuit", the order was given by Fregattenkapitan Hans Oels, the ship's Executive Officer, from his damage control command post in Campartment XIV. The receipt of the order to scuttle, by Korvettankapitan Walter Lehmann, the chief engineering officer, was witnessed by Matrosengefreiter Herbert Blum. It appears that Oels assumed command of the ship after communication with the bridge was lost shortly after 0900. By this time the order was given, conditions aboard the ship were chaotic, and many officers, including Mullenheim-Rechberg, wre obliged to use their own initiative in attempting to save theeir men. There is no clear evidence as to when and how Lindemann died. Kennedy quotes the testimony of Matrosenstabsgefreiter Herzog, stating that a loudspeaker announcement declared that Lutjens and Lindemann had both been killed, and later that Lindemann had not been killed. Mullenheim-Rechberg quotes an astonishing report that Lindemann and his seaman messenger were seen on the forecastle of the ship as she sank, Lindemann saluting as the ship went down. Unfortunately the name of the witness or witnesses is not given, and there is no guarantee that the officer was correctly identified. John Moore 309 00:34, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't think Lindeman was still alive when the order to scuttle was given. He should have been killed with Lütjens and the bridge crew when their command post was struck by Rodney with a direct hit. ROV footage showed the terrible destruction of the area inside. --Denniss 01:20, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi,

I'm pretty sure that Baron Von Mullenheim-Rechberg's Book: "Bismarck, a Survivor's Story" is the authority for Lindemann having given the order to abandon ship. He mentions Lindemann passing him, without a word, on deck around the time that the abandon ship order was given. You are much too optimistic in thinking that the odds on his surviving were favourable: fewer than 5% of the ship's crew, inc. many not in the depths of the ship, survived the battle and the sinking.

As to a shell detonating on the bridge, I don't recall this off-hand. You could be right but I wonder if you might be getting confused with the 'Prince of Wales'? During the Denmark Strait battle a 15" shell from Bismarck penetrated that ship's bridge and killed everyone but the captain. Had it exploded, there would have been no senior officers left.

Patrick

According to the chapter of Mullenheim-Rechberg's book entitled A Last Visit to the Bridge, the meeting between Mullenheim-Rechberg and Lindemann took place before the battle. Mullenheim-Rechberg does not attribute the scuttling to Lindemann. John Moore 309 00:34, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Accounts I have read, including Ballards book which uses M-R's account, place Lindemann on deck just before the Bismarck goes down. For the PoW it was the compass platform that took the hit.GraemeLeggett 11:10, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

The Bercuson and Herwig book mentions the debate, as well as the conflicting reports of seeing Lindemann on deck as Bismarck went down, but the authors believe that Lindemann was killed with Lutjens when a shell from the Rodney hit the bridge, and that Oels gave the abandon ship command.King aardvark 14:18, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I'm in charge, here

Not to take away from Lutjens or Holland, but, who were COs Bismarck & Hood (& Pz Eugen & PoW) @time their engagement? I've seen Cpn J C Leach, RN, for PoW, KzS Ernst Lindemann, RM, for Bismarck. Trekphiler 01:32, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

The captain of Hood was Captain Ralph Kerr OBE. The captain of Prinz Eugen was Kapitan zur See Helmuth Brinckmann. Lindemann and Leach are correct (Captain Leach was the father of Sir Henry Leach, First Sea Lord from 1979 to 1982). John Moore 309 22:12, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Her or His?

I've read a book about the Bismarck and now I'm wondering that is it really right to say "her, she" etc. because the captain of Bismarck wanted to use "he, his" etc because the of the ship.

Just a little formality

And sorry my bad English

In German we say "she" so I would say "she" in English too

[edit] Degrees of Fame

A contributor edited my opening sentence about the Bismarck being the "most famous" warship of WWII. I have revised this to "probably the most famous warship of WWII", as that is a matter of opinion and it is impossible to be so definitive. Others could argue that HMS Hood herself or HMS Warspite or one of the Iowa class battleships, or the Yamato are just as well known or, in the case of HMS Warspite, had a distinguished career throughout the whole of the war. Patrick

In the US, the USS Arizona might be as famous or more famous, thanks to being the Pearl Harbor tourist attraction. Hopefully, there is some reference source that said Bismarck is the most famous so that its not simply our opinion that its the most famous. Perhaps in 1960 thanks to the hit song, Bismarck was more famous in the US than it is today. Whatever is decided, I think the proper grammar would be to use the present tense in stating the ship's fame, everybody agree? I think its important to be clear what we are saying, that the ship is today the most famous, as opposed to having been the most famous during WWII (but not today, unless that is what was meant.) --Drogo Underburrow 22:34, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi, an anonymous contributor (128.239.198.105) has once again edited the article to dispute Bismarck's being the most famous warship of WWII. I agree with your point about the use of the present tense being important. What we are saying is that Bismarck is *now probably the most famous ship, i.e. that she has never been more famous! I reverted to the old version with a note that, as far as I know, no other warship has three websites devoted to her/and her siter-ships. I don't dispute that during the war a number of ships were more distinguished or 'famous' (see above) but it's clear to many today that Bismarck's fame has endured longer than others'. That contributor has no talk page, so I'm hoping they read this page to understand my POV.

[edit] Sinking of Bismarck

Graham, someone has deleted a para. I had in along the lines of "To this day controversy remains over the sinking of the ship". Why this was removed, I don't know, since it listed the key questions about torpedo hits/scutting, gunfire, combination of all/some of these, without making any judgements or conclusions?

Can you shed any light on this as I think it was quite a fair and valuable commentary? Patrick

If the Bismarck was scuttled, why did so many of the crew die on board, as currently implied by the article? In fact, they didn't die onboard, most of the crew went into the water, where they were abandoned by the British, and left to die. The article should state this, that close to two thousand men died when the British ships steamed away and left them. I think material that used to address this was deleted and should be put back in a revised form. --Drogo Underburrow 23:02, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

To those who keep deleting my paragraph on the sinking: controversy *does* exist today. The various expeditions to the wreck show that damage caused by torpedoes was underestimated. And the hasty departure of the British ships still ranlkes with many today.

I wish to take issues with this, "...abandoning the majority of the Bismarck's 2,200 man crew to the mercy of the water" This is assuming, without fact that 2,200 men were left alive in the water, this cannot be verified. We know many were left, but how many is many?

Fair enough: I have amended the article a little and Drogo added a further point about numbers. (I will also edit the article a little further up to say that "many" rather than "most" of the crew escaped from the ship.) According to the specialist websites, about 800 sailors escaped from the ship, of whom just over a hundred were rescued. That's why I said that "hundreds" were left in the water. As to Drogo changing "at the mercy of the water" to "to die in the water", that is an old and difficult question. Isn't my wording more neutral, as Drogo's suggests that the British deliberately abandoned the sailors to die in the water? That might be true but is also POV. Maybe Drogo will give this some thought. Thanks Patrick

The British left them to die; if they should by chance be rescued, that doesn't change the fact that the British left them in a lethal situation, with no help coming as far as the British knew. "the mercy of the water" is a poetic euphemism, and hence is more POV than bluntly stating the facts. Drogo Underburrow 18:10, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

As an aside, stop and think of the barbarity of the British conduct on that day. Hundreds of human beings in the water, and the British ships sail away and leave them there? For what reason, a supposed U-boat contact? Would a U-boat attack British warships in broad daylight on the surface? Of course not. Would it manage to get within torpedo range submerged? Highly unlikely, U-boats could only move at a crawl submerged. If there was a U-boat contact, the logical action for destroyers like the HMS Maori would be to close distance and launch a depth-charge attack and sink the U-boat, not run away. Stop and imagine, for a moment, if the Maori was in the area, doing nothing, on an ordinary day, and it had a U-boat contact. It then fled. How long do you think that the Captain would retain his command? Drogo Underburrow 18:20, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi. I quote: "the British left them in a lethal situation, with no help coming as far as the British knew". So what are we disputing: what's different about your words and my using "to the mercy of the water"? FWIW, I agree the British acted disgracefully in leaving the scene prematurely that day but it's undeniably POV to say that the Germans were deliberately left to die. There is simply no hard evidence that this was the case and, after all, the British had begun the rescue effort. But when the U-boat alarm was sounded, they pulled in their nets, steamed off and did not return. Their attitude may well have been: "Ok, if we're going to be threatened by a U-boat, we'll have to abandon this rescue and leave these men in the sea". Of course, this could have been a highly convenient excuse for acting as they did but we can't be sure that they acted with malice. I doubt that the British captains had time to debate the likelihood of the U-boat threat or to satisfy themselves that a submarine had been spotted. Their careers would be finished if they were attacked while stopped and may explain why the British sped off. Overall I'm suggesting that, on this occasion, your words are not sufficiently balanced to pass a neutrality test. The suspicions you and I share are one thing, proof quite another. All the best, Patrick.
You never responded to an important point I raised, so I will repeat it more bluntly. If the British where acting in response to a U-boat contact, why didn't they go look for, find, and sink that U-boat? Running away because of a "U-boat contact" is absurd, a phoney excuse. Who invented this ridiculous claim? What is the source? Drogo Underburrow 00:31, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
The specialist websites say that there was a submarine alert and the British ships left the scene without further delay. I presume that the British ships' logs recorded this and that it became known quite soon after they reached port. You are missing my point: the main enemy ship had been sunk so locating and attacking a "stray" U-boat not in contact with a convoy was hardly a priority. It would also have put the British ships at risk (a point I repeat). Getting back to port after such a demanding chase was probably the order of the day Patrick.
I'm not overlooking your point, I'm contradicting it. War is not a game, and if the big event was over, the players go home. If the Maori had a U-boat contact, it would have attacked. That is what destroyers were for, to sink U-boats. A destroyer running away from a U-boat is like a fox fleeing from a chicken. -- Drogo Underburrow 00:23, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

"I assume", "I think", "if" this, "if" that, "no hard evidence", "the suspicions you and I share", "barbarity of the British conduct". I think I'll add this page to my watchlist to make sure neither of you make any ignorant POV edits. Wiki-Ed 12:59, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

"Ignorant" in terms of lack of knowledge or "ignorant" in terms of courtesy? If you follow the points made, or bother to check the history of the article, you would see that both Drogo and myself seem to know sth about the Bismarck. Nothing has been added to our discussion for a couple of weeks, indicating that while we agree to disagree the discussion is at an end. Isn't a discussion page for saying what can't be said in the main article, or for justifying what someone considers POV? It's not for anyone to act as a censor on what we say or appear to threaten our free speech, as long as we remain reasonable. Neither Drogo nor I appear to have a problem with a healthy discussion in which we're not afraid to make our points. I can't see any inappropriate language that should cause you to get all high and mighty and bossy with us; so take a pill, have a stiff drink and chill out, there's a good chap! bigpad 15:49, 10 June 2006 (UTC).

i changed the sentence in the "sinking" section about the demonstration of the difficulty a battleship has in sinking a similar unit in a balanced engagement to read "sink a similar unit in even an unbalanced engagement" because the previous version implies that 1 partially crippled battleship versus 2 fully operational battleships, heavy cruisers, and destroyers was somehow a "balanced engagement". Parsecboy 22:55, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sinking of Hood

No serious student of the Bismarck or Hood believes that an 8" shell from Prinz Eugen was enough to sink the Hood. Such a projectile lacked the penetrative effect needed, even when hitting a battlecruiser. Eyewitnesses to the Admiralty inquiry, and the vast majority of studies done since that fateful day, concur that the Prinz Eugen did *not* sink the Hood.

I have therefore reverted the text to the way it was before these two recent interventions as they lack the neutral focus we need.

The theory about PE and 8" shell is that it hit the "unrotated projectile" storage box on the open deck of Hood. That was a large unarmoured tin box filled with hundreds of weird looking unguided aerial mine rockets meant to be used against dive-bomber attacks. The resulting massive deck explosion may have been transferred down into the citadel of Hood if some manhole or vent opining was not closed due to human error. It is well-known that Hood's personnel was NOT well trained at the time and quite strained. 195.70.32.136 08:38, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
== Well, well... ==
"Such a projectile lacked the penetrative effect needed, even when hitting a battlecruiser." During the Battle of Denmark Strait, an 8 inch shell from Prinz Eugen found its way to the propelling charge/round manipulation chamber below the after 5.25-inch gun turrets of Prince of Wales, and a 15 inch shell from Bismarck hit underwater very close to the after 14-inch magazine. Fortunately neither shell exploded; Prince of Wales might have succumbed to a fate similar to the Hood. And Prince of Wales was a battleship.
"they lack the neutral focus we need."
The text is neutral. I never claimed that whetever Prinz Eugen sunk Hood or not is certain, but Hood blew up shortly after recieving a hits from Prinz Eugen and that is relevant. That is not POV.
Your sequence of events is faulty, however. The 8" hit from PE came some minutes before the shell from Bismarck struck the Hood. Any way you look at it, your version of the battle says that PE sank the Hood when it is much more likely, from observers at the time, and from subsequent analysis, that the Bismarck was responsible. Only its 15" shell had the penetrative effect to reach the Hood's magazines.
If you spend some time on the kbismarck or Bismarck and Tirpitz sites you'll become better acquainted with what happened, and when.
My revision is much more accurate and, you'll note, I put in the bit about the conclusions amde at the time as to the sinking without saying that this was definitely the case.
Why do you keep reverting to an edit that is wrong chronologically, if not in other ways? Patrick
== ..... ==
"If you spend some time on the kbismarck or Bismarck and Tirpitz sites you'll become better acquainted with what happened, and when."
I do not need to, and I don't use internet as my primary source of information. Also, your statement "you'll become better acquinted with what happened, and when." sounds a bit "all mighty."
"Only its 15" shell had the penetrative effect to reach the Hood's magazines."
That is what you say, but an 8 inch shell from Prinz Eugen found its way to the propelling charge/round manipulation chamber below the after 5.25-inch gun turrets of Prince of Wales.
"My revision is much more accurate" POV. You don't include the information regarding Prinze Eugen's hits.
Hi again,
That's fair enough about me sounding "high and mighty" but we can't ignore the substantial body of evidence that has been accumulated on the web about the course of events. It's ok to claim that PE sank the Bismarck but the reality is that that particular question has been asked many times and found to be a fairly unlikely scenario. Granted an 8" shell hit POW and penetrated to a degree, but that is not conclusive proof that the same shell would have made mincemeat of the Hood.
The effect of the 8" hit on the Bismarck is well covered on the sites Ihave referred to. The main contributors to those sites are folks with an in-dpth knowledge and few stones are left unturned.
An encyclopedia needs to be accurate on key points, for instance the timing of salvoes being fired, etc., as this can be known fairly accurately. I hope my article is robust in this regard. However, no one can know for sure exactlly what caused the Hood to blow up with such devastation. Still, the way I have the article is the most plausible explanation.
I will revisit your point about not having included the hits from PE. I thought I had done so but will check.
Regards, Patrick
Will you people please put your comments indented and tagged (remember 4 x ~!) so the rest of us can follow and comment.GraemeLeggett 10:10, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Space Battleship Bismarck?

One thing I do not know the answer to: is the keel of the Bismarck broken? It sure dived and impacted mud and slide several miles violently, but the submersibles made video which shows it is pristine.

It an important question I think, because with a broken keel the Bismarck is a mere wreck on the seafloor. But if the keel holds than the Bismarck is still a hull, not a wreck and could theoretically and immorally be raised, fitted out and made into a combattant once again. It is made of very good steel and didn't rust much in the great depth. 195.70.32.136 08:43, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Even if she could be raised, she is a war grave.

[edit] The Bismarck Chase

We already have a page devoted to the battle. Its called Operation Rheinübung. -- Drogo Underburrow 23:10, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

To shift detail into sub pages is a very reasonable idea. we alreadt have Battle of the Denmark Strait. GraemeLeggett 08:29, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Overlinking

Make only links relevant to the article. Overlinking is very distracting to the reader. Don't link words simply because they have articles. Links are like making a footnote. Ask yourself, would it be appropriate to insert the words "See also" in parenthesis after the linked word? If not, then don't link it. Ordinary words should not be linked. It is possible to link almost every word like this; don't. -- Drogo Underburrow 08:03, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Most famous WWII warship?

"The battleship Bismarck is probably the most famous warship of the Second World War." -- WWII produced a number of famous ships. What basis do we have for claiming Bismarck as the "most famous"? -- 201.51.166.124 01:55, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Know any other ships that had a hit song? :-) -- Drogo Underburrow 06:21, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I've tried to specify "German" warship, but it keeps getting changed back. See my latest change comments for a list of ships at least as famous as the Bismarck (and often moreso). And yes, that should have been "Yamoto" not "Yamamoto." (Me: IP 128.239.198.105)

Hi 'anonymous user', please see my comments above (under "Degrees of Fame). Article edited to remove the "probably" but let's leave it at that Patrick. [Addendum: once again, anonymous user, please check and respond to postings on this page before blandly asking me to do so (in your article edit summary), when I have already done so Patrick.]
You aren't actually making a point, buddy. You're saying "let's do it my way and call it at that." I've read what you said above, and it's still not correct. If you don't know of "3 other websites devoted to a single ship" for any other WWII ship, you obviously aren't looking. The Bismarck is/was a paper tiger with only one claim to fame. The famous ones are all out in the Pacific, and are usually carriers. Besides, apply logic to it. "Most famous German ship" is a subset of "most famous ship." Being specific is good for an encyclopedia, no? The claim that it is "considered by many" to be the most famous ship doesn't really matter. I'm certain that the USS Guaducanal is "considered by many" to be the most famous ship. (Me: IP 128.239.198.105)
Arguing back and forth will not settle this issue. Does anybody own entire books about the Bismarck? Do any of those books voice an opinion on this issue? Rather than trying to determine who is right and wrong here, lets do it the WP:NPOV way, which is to cite sources. -- Drogo Underburrow 00:14, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I went back and changed it again to something more neutral: "One of the most famous warships." Heck, it occured to me that "most famous German warship" might actually be wrong, considering the number of famous U-Boats. Trying to declare a ship the "most famous" is sort of presumptious anyway, is it not? I myself would consider the Enterprise the most famous, but you don't see me changing its article to say so. Google would seem to agree with me, with about 4.2 million hits for "world war ii ship enterprise" vs. 350,000 for "world war ii ship bismarck." Either way, the Bismarck is *not* the most famous ship of World War II. Maybe it is in Ireland, but not world wide. If people can't accept "one of the most famous ships," then I suggest that there be no reference to fame at all, and the first sentence changed to "The battleship Bismarck was a German warship in World War II." Or something along those lines. (Me: IP 128.239.198.105)

If you type four ~ at the end of your posts it will automatically sign them. WP:NPOV is not about changing what you say to sound more "neutral", its about posting what contending sources say without editors picking who is right. We need to find a published source that says that the Bismarck was famous; otherwise the article has no right to make the claim. It's not enought for editors to assert that the ship is famous, nor try to prove it in various ways. That is called 'original research' and isn't allowed. So whoever has a published book that says something on this issue, speak up, or we have to delete the claim entirely for lack of a source. Drogo Underburrow 00:47, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

"Famous" is one of those things that you don't really find a source for, and every source will say something different anyway. There's no doubt that the Bismarck is famous. Why? Because I would wager most people have at least heard about it in passing, and anyone who knows only a little bit about World War II history will know it. But there's no mathematical definition of "famous" that can statistically prove if something is famous or not. Here's what it boils down to: The Bismarck is a famous warship from World War II. It is arguably the most famous of all German ships. It is not the most famous ship overall from World War II. If you want to take out *all* references to fame, it's a valid option, but it does remove a fact from the article. Which fact? The fact that theh Bismarck is a famous World War II battleship. (Me: IP 128.239.198.105)
Don't be so sure that no source addresses the issue of Bismarck's fame (though right after saying that, you then contradict yourself by claiming all sources voice contrary opinions on the topic). In any event, sources are all we deal with here at Wikipedia. We are supposed to fill articles with what sources say, not with original material. If a published source doesn't say it, it doesn't belong here. Similarly, whatever published sources do say, its up to us to cite those sources, not to write as if the material is coming from the editor's brains. Drogo Underburrow 01:22, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Heh. I'm well accustomed to research, both original and summarizing what others have said. I may not do much with Wikipedia, but you don't need a single authoritative source for each and every statement. By its very nature, fame is something that doesn't come from a single source saying so. (Me: IP 128.239.198.105)

I think that "one of the most famous warships" is fair enough. And thanks to 128.239.198.105 for *finally replying on this page Patrick.

No need for cheap shots, friend. No "finally" about it, I've been putting things on the page quite a bit lately, as you may have noticed. (Me: IP 128.239.198.105)
I reckon the first "cheap shot" came from you, perhaps accidently, in your peremptory edit summary about me making my point on this (the discussion) page. But I'm happy to move on as there seems to be a consensus on the wording. You might have seen above that, like you, I queried the use of 'probably the most famous warship.." when many had more distinguished war careers Patrick.

I guess fame is hard to estimate, especially because there´s allways a different sight of view. US citizens for example may find the warships of the pacific war more interesting and famous while in Europe, where nearly no country was involved into the pacific war, no one knows about these famous carriers or maybe not such intense, like americans do. For example, i never heard about the USS Guaducanal. To call the Bismarck a paper tiger, because the ship only had one claim to fame or just one trip is neither logical, nor correct, as you mentioned it. The Titanic has also only one "claim to fame" and is also the most fameous civil ship in the world. Theres also a lot of symbolic character if you say for example, that it fought against a whole fleet and even in his agony, it hold out quite well. But of course, the world "most fameous" is totally unable to proof.

I would suggest a reasonable way to establish relative fame might be to survey how many books have been written on the Bismark compared to any other ship. I think you will find that there are far more written works on the Bismark, and the Bismark alone, than there are on any other single warship. Similarly, several documentaries have been made about the Bismark. I am not aware of the same degree of Media interest in any other single warship, past or present. Getztashida 16:08, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

This is a very reasonable suggestion but I think that the consensus was to use the words "one of the most famous..", notwithstanding a widespread feeling that B. is by far the most 'famous', for the reasons you have mentioned bigpad 20:41, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

This discussion is so Euro-centric that it's useless. It threatens to get into a circular argument in which one cites European sources in English that obsess over the Bismarck, and they cite the Bismarck because it's obsessed over in Europe. Meanwhile in Asia or the U.S., it's far from the most famous ship.

Yamato is unquestionably the most famous WWII ship in Japan. It's really hard to understate how famous that ship is there; The Kure Naval History Museum has a 1/10 scale model[3] and a life-size reconstruction of the deck, and they've gotten 2,000,000 visitors in a year. It's hard to imagine the Germans doing that for Bismarck, or even the Brits for Hood. Yamato is frequently featured in Japanese media and fiction, most famously in Space Battleship Yamato[4], and many, many other fictional depictions. It also has a namesake prototype research vessel[5], much like how the Americans named their first Space Shuttle Enterprise.

This points to the problem with the guy asking "How many ships have had hit songs made about them": there's a mountain of media about Yamato, and saying "Ship X is the most famous in the world" while remaining ignorant about what's being depicted in overseas media merely shows your ignorance. How many manga have been made about Bismarck?

The fact is, much as the Brits and Germans obsess over Bismarck, the Japanese obsess over Yamato - and Japan is bigger than the UK and Germany combined, so it's clearly rubbish to claim Bismarck as more famous. That is, unless you want to try the old "But we're Europeans, so we matter more" trick. People are apt to obsess over ships in their locality, and completely ignore ships that are famous overseas. So you're likely to get Japanese pages that say Yamato is the most famous, or Portugese pages that say Graf Spee was the most famous.

In the U.S., it's likely either Arizona, Missouri, Yorktown, or Hornet. Worldwide, I'd say it's probobly Missouri or Yamato. Identity0 07:25, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No more images!

I have removed the second pic. of Bismarck firing at POW as that would mean six images in an article that is already very large. To Wallie: can you reduce the size of the Hood and Ark Royal pics as they are disproportionally large compared to Bismarck, the main subject? It's useful to keep them in, though. For example, the updated pic. of Hood from the Hood page would do well (although, FWIW, I think the original pic. of Hood showing her length and graceful lines was far nicer!) Thanks, bigpad 07:52, 8 June 2006 (UTC).

You are welcome to change things, if you want to. I thought the second picture of Bismarck firing, and that smoke, looked impressive. However, I guess you removed it, and I am not too fussed. As for the size of the article, do you think it is too large? It will probably increase over time you know... It is great that there is so much interest in these ships after all this time. Keep up the good work! Wallie 21:37, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
I reverted a deletion of the Hood pic., as the article does not claim categorically that a shell or shells from Bismarck (alone) sank the Hood. The careful wording of the first paragraph is evidence of this bigpad 08:18, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The sinking section

The start of the article seems to do a good job of avoiding the question of whether it was scuttled or sunk due to damage, but the section on the sinking appears to have fully made up its mind that the germans scuttled it instead of saving such conclusions for the controvesy page. Would anyone object to the moving of such conclusions down into the controversy section? Narson 16:29, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

i object to the move. it's undeniable that the bismarck was scuttled. the only question is whether the ship sank because of combat damage, or the scuttling. the order to scuttle was given. the section of the article you're talking about never says the bismarck sank because it was scuttled, that analysis is only in the controversy section. leave it as is. Parsecboy 18:11, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

It is all in the same paragraph, in the next sentence after saying the order to scuttle and abandon ship was given it goes on to mention its sinking, this gives the impression the events were indeed the ones to lead onto the sinking. At the very least a paragraph break would be good there. Narson 13:03, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

i'm not quite sure you're reading the same bismarck article that i am. it's not in the same paragraph:

"Bismarck continued to fly its ensign. With no sign of surrender, despite the unequal struggle, the British were loath to leave the Bismarck. Their fuel and shell supplies were low - a demonstration of how difficult it was for a battleship to sink a similar unit in even an unbalanced engagement. However, when it became obvious that their enemy could not reach port, Rodney, King George V and the destroyers were sent home. Norfolk had used its last torpedoes, therefore Dorsetshire launched four torpedoes which may have hit the Bismarck at comparatively short range. Although the battleship's upper works were almost completely destroyed, her engines were still functioning and the hull appeared to be relatively sound; therefore rather than risk her being captured, the order to scuttle and then abandon ship was given. Many of the crew went into the water, but few sailors from the lower engine spaces got out alive. It's not clear who gave the order to scuttle the ship, as Captain Lindeman was presumed killed with all officers after the bridge was hit by a 16″ shell. Some of the survivors, though, believe they saw him going down alive with his ship.

Bismarck went under the waves at 10.39 hours that morning. Unaware of the fate of the ship, Group West, the German command base, continued to issue signals to Bismarck for some hours, until Reuters reported news from Britain that the ship had been sunk. In Britain, the House of Commons was informed of the sinking early that afternoon."

it doesn't say anyhting about the ship sinking until the first line of the second paragraph. totally separated from the suttling comment. therefore, it's a non-issue. Parsecboy 16:53, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

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