Talk:German Crusade, 1096

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"The German Crusade of 1096 is that part of the First Crusade in which peasant crusaders, mostly from Germany, attacked not Muslims but Jews."

This definition is arbitrary und unscientific.

A: The lable "German" is misleading

1. The perpetrators were not exclusivly German. A large portion of the participants originated from France.

2. The pogroms did not take place exclusively on German soil. The first pogroms started in France (as is clearly documented by letters sent from French to German jews to warn them of the Crusaders). And after the massacers in the Rhineland there were pogroms e.g. in Bohemia.

3. The target of the Crusades was not Germany. The massacers happened on the way to Jerusalem. Although that target was not reached, the Crusaders left Germany and caused further trouble on their way.

4. The label "German crusade" is not used in general. If it is used, it most likely refers to the (failed) Crusade of 1197 of Emperor Henry VI a century later!

B: The German crusade cannot be separated from the Peasants' crusade.

1. The peasant crusaders moved in several groups that united and split and united again. E.g. Count Emicho is presented in the article as the leader of the Crusade. After he left the Rhineland, his group stopped to attack Jews (or at least there are no further reports.) But at the time Emicho had left the Rhineland already, another group (that had split from Emicho's group) went up to the city of Trier to attack Jews there.

2. Virtually ALL groups of the Peasants' crusade harassed or attacked Jews. Some could be pleased with money (including Peter and Walter), others plundered and murdered (Emicho et el.).

3. The "German" crusade and the peasants' crusade happened at the same time (spring 1096) and in the the same areas (Northern France - Rhineland/centralGermany - Bohemia - Hungary).

C: I strongly doubt that these events were the first organised attacks on jews. I am not an expert on this subject, but there was at least one large massacre of jews in York before the crusades.

I am not currently in a position to argue against this in detail, but as for point A.4, that is true, which is why this has "1096" in the title (I envisioned someday writing an article about the 1197 crusade, but I haven't done it yet). You are also correct about point B, but this is a significantly different section of the Peoples' Crusade that it has been spun off into a separate article. I believe it is also a subsection of the Peoples' Crusade section in the First Crusade article. There are other groups in the Peoples' Crusade that, for example, did not even make it to Hungary, which we have also mentioned, but this specific part seems significant enough for its own article. Perhaps it is an historiographical conceit o separate it like that, but there is quite a lot of writing about this. As for point C, you may be thinking of the massacre in York before the Third Crusade, about 90 years later. (I'll give a fuller response when I am able.) Adam Bishop 04:15, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

You are right that those events justify an article for themselves. I simply objected to the title "German crusade" because it's not generally in use and - even worse - misleading.

My suggestions:

(1) Drop "German crusade" and call this article something like "Jews and the (First) Crusade" or whatever seems appropriate.

(2) Expand this article to include other instances of anti-jewish violence during the first crusade (e.g. extortion of money, massacre in Jerusalem etc.) to present a complete picture to the readers.

(3) Create links from "First Crusade" and "Peasants' Crusade" to this article

As for point C, it seems that you are right.

That's an interesting suggestion...there were other examples of extortion by the nobles' crusade too, and a lot of violence in Jerusalem, as you say. Adam Bishop 15:24, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Another interesting detail is that by attacking jews, the crusaders were actually challenging the authority of German emperor Henry IV. Jews were explicitly protected by empirial law. But Henry IV was still at odds with the Papacy over control of the church in Germany (remember Canossa). So it would be interesting to check if the attacks om Jews were also politically motivated. 1 Feb. 06

[edit] German-Jews in Jerusalem during the First Crusade ...

"There seems to be some support even for the view that there were German Jews in Jerusalem at this time. The story is told, on the authority of Elijah Ba'al Shem of Chelm, that a young man named Dolberger was saved by a Jew in Palestine who knew German, and that out of gratitude one of his family who was among the Crusaders saved some of the Jews in Palestine and carried them to Worms ("Seder ha-Dorot," ed. 1878, p. 252). In the second half of the eleventh century halakic questions were sent from Germany to Jerusalem (Epstein, in "Monatsschrift," xlvii. 344)."[1]

- It could be possible that some of these German-Jews had migrated to Jerusalem during the Great German Pilgrimage of 1064. Perhaps this happened even earlier, when King Henry II of Germany forced all Jews from Mainz in 1012, some three years after "mad" Fatimid caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah destroyed the Holy Sepulchre on October 18, 1009. Either way, the above paragraph suggests that German-Jews were living in Jerusalem prior to the pogroms led by Count Emicho in the summer of 1096. (!Mi nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 03:05, 18 May 2006 (UTC))

Dreadlocke, do not add anything to direct quotes. I realize that I originally added the thing about Rabbi Elijah being a "mystic", but it wasn't apart of the original paragraph, so I deleted it. Check out the link if you don't believe me. Its under the "Under the Arabs" Heading. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 02:37, 27 July 2006 (UTC))

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