Talk:Ger toshav

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There is a confusion in point three on this page. Gerim HaShaar ("Gate Residents") are those who have abstained from idolatry and to whom carrion may be donated as charity to eat (like Nakhrim) but only if in need, and to whom the restrictions that pertain to an idolater (in terms of business and doing things that might be aiding idol worship) are forgone. This type of Ger was recognised when the Yoveil was in force and is comparable to a Noahide today. But a Ger Toshav who has been recognised by a Beth Din may not eat carrion, and these are the ones comparable to the Chabad "Jewish Gentiles". 193.63.146.184 09:59, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Comparison to Dhimmi

Why is this comparison being censored? The source provides the opinion of Mordechai Nisan:The author is Mordechai Nisan, a lecturer on the Middle East at Hebrew University in Jerusalem. Nisan finds a correspondence between the discriminatory treatment of minorities, dhimmis, in Islamic countries, and the Jewish treatment of Noachides and resident aliens.Heraclius 00:46, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Who is Nisan? Why is his opinion notable? How do you know he really said that? Is the source credible? Don't forget, extreme minority opinions, even if accurately represented (which is unclear), should not be put in Wikipedia articles. Jayjg (talk) 00:48, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
The source explains who Nisan is. Why isn't his opinion notable? Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it non-notable. There is no majority or minority opinion when it comes to this. Please stop censoring valid, sourced opinions.Heraclius 00:52, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

A lecturer on the Middle East at Hebrew U has notable opinions about religious issues? There are tens of thousands of lecturers at Hebrew U, even assuming his unique opinion was correctly represented (and there's no reason to believe it was). In fact, the burden of proof is on you to show that he is

  1. Notable.
  2. Not an extreme minority opinion.
  3. Represented accurately.

I welcome your evidence. Jayjg (talk) 00:56, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

With a name like Mordechai Nisan, he is probably a Mizrahi (?Iranian), and thus has a better chance of knowing what he is talking about. Even if he were not notable and a minority opinion, much of the Dhimmi piece is drawn from Bat Ye'or and Bernard Lewis, neither of whom could be described as impartial, and the former is hardly notable. Since that piece is allowed, let this stand. Incidentally, I doubt your suggestion that the Hebrew University has "tens of thousands of lecturers"; students, maybe. Oudemos



Harper and Row, New York
1988
ISBN 0-06-016039-X
  • There's the ISBN if you want to make sure the source is represented accurately.
  • He wrote an article for the World Zionist Organization, so that makes him notable.
  • Once again, there is no majority or minority opinion when it comes to this.
Also, you don't have to keep apologizing.

Heraclius 01:01, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

All you've done is shown that Harkabi got a book published. You have not shown that Nisan is notable, or that he was represented correctly, or that his views, if quoted correctly, are not an extreme minority opinion. Writing an article for the WZO is no more a measure of notability than being a lecturer (not even a professor!) at Hebrew U. Try again. Jayjg (talk) 01:09, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Fine then, what are Wikipedia's standards for notability?Heraclius 01:12, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
Have a look at Wikipedia:Importance and Wikipedia:Notability. Jayjg is quite correct in saying that the views of one particular academic are not typically included unless that academic is regarded by his peers as an established expert in the field. Publishing books is easy and is not a very good indicator of notability. JFW | T@lk 01:23, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

First I need a website which explains Nisan's views. It needs to be credible, and non-copyvio. What have you got? After that, please read WP:NPOV regarding "extreme minority views", and explain why Nisan's view is not an "extreme minority view". Jayjg (talk) 01:22, 18 August 2005 (UTC)


Comparing the concept of Dhimmi with Ger Toshav is more misleading than useful, it reminds me of the mediaeval writer (I forget which one) who described a banana as being like a cucumber but with skin that peels off and like a pineapple inside - some truth but in general far too misleading :D Kuratowski's Ghost 01:38, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

The comparison of Dhimmi, Ger Toshav and Recusant (and others in non-Abrahamic religions) is very relevant; the suggestion of hiding Ger Toshav amongst Proselytes is less than honest. For the same political reasons that Israel is trying to rehabilitate the Irgun as "freedom fighters" - to contrast them with Palestinian "terrorists" - the highly emotive terms "Dhimmi" / "Dhimmitude" are at aimed Muslims / Islamists. Failure to demonstrate that the same concept exists in Judaism may suit certain political agenda, but does not advance understanding. Oudemos

Except its not the same concept. Dhimmitude does not apply to a particular geographic region and historically has been imposed on people against their will. Ger toshav applies only to a particular region and is largely a theoretical concept in not something historically imposed on people. Kuratowski's Ghost 13:31, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Sorry?? Not the same concept? Both involve the concept of inferiority based on belonging to a different religion. Both require formal and public acknowledgment of the suzerainty of the superior creed. Both are defined by the boundaries of the superior creed's writ. And there are no similarities? Oudemos.

Mordechai Nisan is an established scholar and author of a number of peer-reviewed articles and books with quality publishers. To suggest that these publications cannot be cited in Wikipedia is ridiculous. It is NOT necessary to establish the notability of every author of a scholarly book or article - what's next, having to prove the notability of every BBC journalist? For the status of lecturer in various countries, see that article, to which a section on Israel could usefully be added (there is a link to an Israeli website but it is entirely in Hebrew). Itsmejudith 12:20, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

WP:NPOV does not allow extreme minority views, and User:Heraclius, who was a sockpuppet of a banned user, didn't actually have the source. Jayjg (talk) 23:38, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
To clarify, I would only support the inclusion of a point made by this scholar if it can be found in a proper publication and not any old website. I do not know what his views are about anything as I have only scanned the titles of his publications. Do you have grounds for saying his is an extreme minority view? At first I thought he must be pro-Arab given the discussion above but apparently he wrote a favourable review of [[Eurabia]] in the [[Jerusalem Post]], which would place him towards the other extreme. I don't know anything about User:Heraclius either. How do you find out if a user is a sockpuppet? Itsmejudith 10:20, 5 October 2006 (UTC)


  • Some important differences I'm aware of off the top of my head between the concept of Dhimmis in traditional Islamic and the concept Gerei Toshavim in Judaiam are the following, all based upon my learning of the Mishneh Torah. I intend to give specif references [chapter & halakha] later when I have more time
    • 1 A Jew is forbidden to kill an idolatous non-Jew. Were the Jews life truly threatened by the non-Jewish idolatry, then he would be allowed to kill him if nessariy; in such a case, however, there would be no difference between a non-Jewish idolater, a geir toshav, and any Jew. According to Jewish law anyone is allowed to kill [not murder] anyone else if the individual's life is truly endangered by the other person and there were no other way to safe himself. Islam traditionally not only doesn't forbid, but often requires that non-muslims in muslim lands be killed - regardless of an issue of self defense, unless, ideally, the non-muslim is a dhimmi. As regarding Jewish wars against non-Jewish peoples within the Land of Israel - these wars can only be fought with the approval and guidance of a valid Jewish Sanhedrin, a valid and TRUE prophet (there are laws with standards in comparable to many other religions as to what determines who is a prophet), neither of which we currently have. In any of these wars, assuming the above requirements are in place, the non-Jewish nations are first offered peace. If they accept it they are then offered to become gerei toshavim. If they refuse to become geirei toshavim, then they are warned in advance and given a chance to flee. If they do not flee on their own and we make war with them, the Jewish people are required by Jewish law not to totally surround them, so as to continously provide for them a way of escape if they change their minds and decide to flee instead of die. Islam doesn't limit its wars to a specific location, doesn't require that a prophet be alive at the time, and what other people (the U.S., Muslims, or whomever else) purposefully allow a way of escape during its wars?

Er ... 'Ten years ago, the Supreme Court convicted a rabbi of this crime, when he wanted to discuss with his students an issue of "permission to kill non-Jews." '(http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/789916.html) Oudemos

    • 2 There is no concept in Jewish law that non-Jews are forced to be to enter into the Land of Israel where they would be required to become a geir toshav. The only possible exception, which isn't currently in Jewish law -- and could only become Jewish law were we to have a TRUE prophet or a recognized and functioning Sanhedrin as well as a functioning Temple in Jerusalem -- is recorded in a prophecy in Zechariah 14. In the prophecy certain ones of the nations are compelled to visit Israel (not required to remain there) once a year. They are compelled by supernatural forces over wheather. I imagine that if this situation ever arises (i personally believe it will), the world will by that time be without doubt as to the Will of the Creator, and whether there is a Creator at all. If this situation never arises, then those who have disdain for Torah / Judaism have nothing to worry about and can not use this individual prophecy as a valid reason for disdain of the concept of geirei toshavim, since this prophecy would only be practical and actual at a time when [if] everyone will realize the same truth.

But if Jewish Law is brought into force over the existing inhabitants, then presumably they would be required to become geirei toshavim; a bit like if Muslims conquer a land and institute Sharia' law, they require all non-Muslims to become dhimmis? Oudemos

    • 3 The concept that a non-Jew must become a geir toshov as a legal requirement upon non-Jews in Talmudic law ONLY applies to a non-Jew who enters the Land of Israel. Islamic rule by muslims, on the other hand, is not limited any specific place and can spread through the whole world without any distinction between locations in regard to the concept of Dhimmis. The Islamic concept of a Dhimmi is to be enforced in any land that comes under Islamic rule.
    • 4 The concept of a ger toshav in Judaism is NOT ALLOWED to be enforced at any time other than when the Yovel is to be observed. The concept of a Dhimmi in Islam is not restricted to any particular time period.
    • 5 A non-Jew who enters the Land of Israel is free to leave at any time. Being that the Land of Israel is relatively small compared to many other lands in the world, it wouldn't necessarily take that long to leave, even by foot. Compare this to the ever spreading "Islamic World." It could take months or years for a person to get out of those lands in order to not be required to be a Dhimmi; in many cases the non-muslim would not be allowed to leave, as is currently the case with certain countries in which some Jews still remain.
    • 6 Non-Jews are not required to enter into the Land of Israel and become geirei toshavim OR Jews in order that they have a place in the World to Come (Jewish term for eternal life). Judaism teaches that any non-Jew who is careful to keep the Noahide laws out of obediance to the Almighty has a place in the world to come (Jewish term for eternal life), and that there is no need for a non-Jew to become a Jew. A person can have various types of religious ideas while still keeping the Noahide laws, so long as those ideas do not contradict the Noahide laws. There is nothing implied in the Mishneh Torah (which contains the main codification of the Noahide laws and laws on geirim) which states that a non-Jew must agree with every detail the various beliefs held among traditional Jews. It only prohibits idolatry and gives guidelines for actions - not beliefs (apart from being against idolatry). Jews themselves have various ideas concerning many different topics. Many of the greatest Rabbis in history have said that the majority of these various opinions are not binding but are from the learned speculations of various teachers, execpt for certain concepts such as those against idolatry and concerning monotheism.

ISLAM, on the other hand, does require that all people become Muslim. To become Dhimmi is second rate, and such a person may not even enter Jan Adan (Paradise). The Talmud, on the other hand, teaches that a non-Jew who keeps the Noahide laws, whether he is a geir toshav or not, can be on a spiritual level equal to the High Priest. Rambam, the only codifier of ALL of Talmudic law, even writes that Jews and non-Jews, slave and free, man and women, can all equally receive the spirit of prophecy. This is apparently taken from a very similar statement in the Talmud.

I guess I can stop with the list for now, but be assured that there are more distinctions. Maybe I'll continue with more when I (hopefully) come back to fill in specific references to all these.

-- in Jerusalm

Its no use explaining it. Leftist/socialists by definition can't face the reality that not everyone is equal, they feel that superiority must be slandered and inferiority must be excused or covered up so that everyone fits into the same Procrustean bed. Kuratowski's Ghost 14:53, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Inequality is based on personal ability and merit (or lack thereof), not belonging to a particular "club". The similarities between ger toshav and dhimmi are sufficient for it to remain a seperate category.
BTW, ISLAM (why the capital letters?) does not require that all become Muslim. It would like it to be so, in the same way that Christianity would like all Jews to embrace Jesus as the Messiah, but it does not insist upon it. You quote Maimonides, surely one of the best examples of co-existence of Muslim, Jew and Christian, before the dark "Light" of the Reconquista fell upon Cordoba. Oudemos
Maimonides was forced to flee his native Spain, and subsequently Morocco, because of Muslim persecution and forced conversion. One of his most famous works is his Yemen Epistle, addressed to the persecuted Jews of Yemen. Which part of that would indicate "surely one of the best examples of co-existence of Muslim, Jew and Christian, before the dark "Light" of the Reconquista fell upon Cordoba"? Jayjg (talk) 23:54, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately, there is very little positive evidence for the life of this great thinker; scholars can only piece things together and make surmises. His exit from Spain is most likely to have occurred when he was a child. There is also an indication that towards the end of his life he was personal physician to a Muslim leader. Itsmejudith 13:05, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
It is well accepted that he and his family had to flee forced conversion at the hands of the Almohades, and his epistle to Yemen provided solace and strength to another severely persecuted Jewish population. Yes, he was the personal physician to a senior Muslim leader in Egypt later in his life, but that doesn't negate the other points. Jayjg (talk) 22:17, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
It's accepted but if you delve deeper you'll find there's not much evidence - it's a long time ago. Anyway there's no point in warring over this. I only looked it up because on the dhimmi page a very devout Jewish guy arrived with some strong opinions, was not treated with the respect a newbie is due, and then disappeared again. It seems there's no decent biography of Maimonides, which is a terrible pity, but perhaps there simply are not enough remaining documents to support it. I wouldn't think the current climate is conducive to such a task either, since people seem unable to understand the past on its own terms without forcing it into the moulds of today's preoccupations. Itsmejudith 23:10, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Not perfect, indeed, but in comparison to what came after, pretty damn good. You still haven't answered why you have removed reference to Kach's policy of Ger Toshav. A minority view indeed, b ut so is Dhimmi to most Muslims. Oudemos

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