Talk:Georgian people

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Georgian people article.

I don't think the Ajarians are an ethnic group, but I could be wrong. I thought the term just applied to the inhabitants of Ajaria. They are culturally different from the rest of Georgia because they're Muslim, but I don't think they were ethnically distinct. Isomorphic 00:51, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Ajarians are ethnic Georgians (one of the ethnographic groups of Georgian people). Ajarians are Muslim, but they are not "culturally different from the rest of Georgia". Levzur 19 Apr 2005

Contents

[edit] Jews

Please remember that Georgian Jews don't call themselves Georgians.

[edit] Reappropriation

I'm biased, but isn't it better? Yes; the Serbs have their own page, and so do the Croats. But remember who links to this page. --VKokielov 04:09, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I've moved the page back, because it's not fair any other way. But don't take out the mention of the Jews. You know what you mean when you do it, and so do I. Let's not pretend. --VKokielov 04:28, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

And remember: the Jews distinguish themselves from the Orthodox Georgians. --VKokielov 04:29, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Dear VKokielov, this article is about the Georgian people (Kartveli Eri), about the nation (ethnic group), not about the whole population of the Republic of Georgia. -- Levzur 25 Apr 2005
Then it shouldn't mention the Svans, Megrelians or Laz either, as they are not ethnic Georgians either -- for one thing, they don't speak Georgian. Considering them to be ethnic Georgians is like considering Catalonians to be ethnic Spaniards. --Marnen Laibow-Koser (talk) 23:51, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Svans, Megrels and Lazs are ethnic Georgians. Literary language for all ethnographic groups of Georgian people is Georgian language. We have many historical sources about it. I'm Laz, my mother is Imeretian, my grandmothers were Megrels = we all are GEORGIANS! -- Levzur 26 Apr 2005
I didn't say anything about "literary language"; I was talking about the language they actually speak, as the literary language is often not a good guide to distinguishing linguistic/ethnic groups. Literary languages are often imposed from outside, by whatever group is in power at a given time; spoken language within a group is a matter of group choice and is a far better guide to group affinity. (If I were to do all my writing in Japanese -- make it my "literary language" -- that would not make me ethnically Japanese.)
In other words, I don't care whether Megrelians use Megrelian, Georgian, or Swahili as their literary language. My understanding is that among themselves when possible, they speak Megrelian (am I correct?), and therefore I say that they are obviously a distinct linguistic group from Laz, Svans, and Georgians proper. I think there's a problem of definition here: "Georgian" (= native of Georgia) is not the same as "ethnic Georgian" (= person whose primary linguistic/cultural affinity is Georgian).
Then again, if you're going on the criteria of literary language, you can't really exclude Georgian Jews from the category of "ethnic Georgians" -- isn't their literary language also Georgian?
Finally, a question: how is it possible that your grandmothers are Megrelians and yet you're Laz? Please explain. --Marnen Laibow-Koser (talk) 02:46, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Just 2 comments:
  • Language/dialect and tribe/nation are difficult questions. I won't pretend to know anything about Georgia but I know a lot about the Balkans. Language is not a good measurement of ethnicity.
  • From what Levzur says and what I know of how ethnicity is inherited in most of the world, I'd guess that his paternal grandfather was Laz, his maternal grandfather Imeretian, and both his grandmothers Megrel, making him a Laz. Zocky 11:47, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
Point the first: I agree that language is not a good measurement of ethnicity, but I only agree with that in one direction. I can think of many cases where a language group encompasses several different ethnic groups, but I can think of no case where, as Levzur is claiming, one ethnic group encompasses several different language groups -- save perhaps in large "melting-pot" countries like the U.S., a category of state that I doubt Georgia falls into.
In other words: "belonging to different ethnic groups" doesn't imply "speaking different languages", but "speaking different languages" generally implies "belonging to different ethnic groups", AFAIK.
Point the second: quite possible. I never said intermarriage didn't occur... :)
Point the third (gratuitous plug): the sort of argument I appear to have got into on this page is a good example of what's wrong with Wikipedia. I have a proposal to fix some of these problems; I'd love comments on it. --Marnen Laibow-Koser (talk) 19:33, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
How about Germany? Low German and High German are two quite distinct languages, but all Germans call themselves German. How about Albanians? Dialects of Kosovo and Albania are quite unintelligable but they're all Albanians. How about Scots, Welsh, the Irish? Plenty of cases like that around. Ethnicity and language are two related, but separate things. Zocky 00:45, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Dear Marnen Laibow-Koser, I say about "ethnicity". Megrels, Lazs, Svans are not independent ethnic groups. They are ethnographic groups of the Georgian people. Georgian Jews are not ethnic Georgians, they are representatives of other ethnic group. My father is Laz, my Mother is Imeretian, my grandmothers were Megrels = we all are ethnic Georgians. Levzur 29 Apr 2005

Repetition will not advance your argument. Please answer the questions I asked. --Marnen Laibow-Koser (talk) 12:36, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
My answer is argumented! What do you want? Unfortunately, you absolutely not know history of Georgia, history of Georgian people (Nation), ethnogenesys of Georgians, ethnology of Georgia. Finally, about genealogy: in Georgia grandmothers are wifes of grandfathers... Levzur 1 may 2005
What do I want? Very simple: I want you to answer the questions I asked. If you think I'm ignorant about Georgia, then please tell me what I am not taking into account. Just repeating yourself and calling me ignorant will not help at all. --Marnen Laibow-Koser (talk) 12:37, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
YES! You are ignorant about Georgia: 1. You not know Georgian language; 2. You not know Georgian historical chronicles of "Kartlis Tskhovreba" and other important Georgian sources; 3. You are not historian; 4. You not know important works of outstanding Georgian historians (Ivane Javakhishvili, Pavle Ingorokva, Simon Janashia, Levan Chilashvili, Giorgi Melikishvili, Sargis Kakabadze, Mikheil Tsereteli, Ekvtime Takaishvili, Malkhaz Abdushelishvili and others)... Levzur 2 May 2005
You have no basis for most, if not all, of these assumptions. Please, please, please stop repeating yourself and answer my questions. --Marnen Laibow-Koser (talk) 22:44, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
I will not discuss wit you scientific questions! Please, read more books about Georgia and Georgian People and visit this country... -- Levzur 8 May 2005
Where do you get the idea that I haven't read books about Georgia? And why won't you discuss scientific questions? That's the purpose of these talk pages. Please don't edit Wikipedia if you won't discuss your edits. --Marnen Laibow-Koser (talk) 00:14, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Unfortunately, you are a dilettante and demagogue. If you had read books (objective books) about Georgia, you would not ask me such questions! Good bye! -- Levzur 9 May 2005

Dear Levzur, the question of Marten comes not from ignorance of Georgia, but from ignorance of rules of descendance for various nationalities. From his last name I suspect that he is Jew. From my dilettante knowledge of Jewish laws, a son of a Jewish mother is a Jew (I don't know if there are exceptions). He apparently thinks that the same rule applies everywhere, hence the surprized tone of the question. He is also apparently unaware that not all ethnicities pay so strict attention to the exact ethnos among close ethnic groups. Not to say that ethoses split, merge, assimilate, disappear... After all, it appears that we all have a common pramother.

See Matrilineality and Patrilineality for a "scientific" answer. Mikkalai 21:01, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 83% of georgians live in georgia

but 4 mil out of 7 mil is not 83%. I would say the numbers of georgians living in Turkey or Afghanistan are a little far fetched. I never heard of 150.000 Georgians living in Afghanistan. Can someone verify this info.

83% of the population of today's Georgia! Thank you! Georgians living in Turkey (more than 1,5 mil.), on the territory of old Georgian provinces - Tao-Klarjeti and Lazeti, are indigenous population of this region. Information about the number of Georgians living in Turkey is the data of the Georgian Society in Turkey. In Afganistan and Iran Georgians were moved in the XVII-XVIII cent. Levzur Sept 2, 2005
Compare these disputed diaspora figures with those cited for Armenians and Norwegians. I don't think there's one single answer for how to realistically enumerate something as elusive as the primary ethnic identity of millions of people after generations of exile or intermarriage. Are sub groups such as the assimilated people in Turkey and Russia whose genetic roots are in the Georgian people to be counted in or out? Are they a subgroup? Are the Ajarians? Tricky, this is.... //Big Adamsky 16:39, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Total population of Georgians living in Turkey, on the territory of old Georgian provinces - Tao-Klarjeti and Lazeti (Lazistan) and not assimilated, is more than 1,5 mil. They have Georgian Associations "Chveneburi" and "Lazebura" (Laszs are one of ethnographic groups of Georgian People). "Chveneburi" is a Georgian Cultural Society in Turkey, not "ethnic group"! Ajarians are muslim Georgians, not a different ethnic group!. In Russia Georgians (about 1 mil.) have own cultural Association also. Georgian Associations are in the USA, Germany, France, Netherlands, Ukraine, Azerbaijan, Iran, etc. For mentioned above people "GEORGIAN" is a primary ethnic identity. Unfortunately, you absolutely not know Georgia and history of Georgian People. With kind regards, Dr. Levan Z. Urushadze, Georgian historian. 5 January 2006
I think Big Adamsky's also pointing to assimilated Georgians as well as those of a recent cultural assimilation into say Turkish or Russian society. Also, the usage of the term ethnic groups is tricky. On the Han chinese page we had a discussion about whether the Hui are Han or not. The view was that they are not. Why? Because they are Muslim rather than Buddhist/various others. The Hui have the same origins as the Han and are usually considered a sub-group at least, but not 'real' Han. Ethnicity is often a hazy term that is applicable in many instances that may not be universally agreed upon, but I think has to be left to some concensus of the group involved deciding whether or not they feel they are an 'ethnic' group as such. Tombseye 06:23, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
By the way, who put up 150,000 Georgians in Afghanistan?! This is the first I'm hearing about this. Mostly there used to be thousands of Georgian Muslims in Afghanistan, but they vanished/assimilated into the population probably a century or more ago. Gorgin Khan's the last major Georgian ruler mentioned before the Hotaki revolt against the Safavids in the 1700s.Tombseye 06:26, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Dear Tombseye, I say only about NOT ASSIMILATED Georgians. Ajarians and mentioned above Georgians in Turkey are Muslims, but they are not culturally and linguistically different from the rest of Georgia. They are ETHNIC GEORGIANS. Total amount of Georgians in Afganistan is about 300,000, about 50% of this population identified himself, as Gurjs (Georgians). With best regards, Dr. Levan Z. Urushadze. 6 January, 2006.

I think its fair to say alot of these numbers are somewhat accurate when you consider the traditional definitions of an ethnic group (a common cultural, linguistic, religious, historical/ancestral and/or physical/gentic origin). Just because Georgians were assimilated in Turkey doesn't necessarily not make them ethnically Georgian. If they had significantly intermarried with ethnic Turkish and adopted all things Turkic then they can be consdiered to be ethnic Turkish with some Georgian roots/influence. But if they still have a significant combination of Georgian roots, whether they be cultural, ancestral/etymological, linguistic, religious or physical/genetic, then they can be classified as Georgians just as much as being classified as a Georgian-Turk or citizen of Turkey. Epf 09:29, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Hello Dr. Levan, I'm just wondering though when this figure was taken. I have no problem with it if it's true, but I was under the impression that indeed many thousands of Georgians were placed in Afghanistan and many became rulers such as the aforementioned Gorgin Khan who ruled Kandahar, but I haven't seen census data that points to Afghans who, other than possibly claiming some partial descent from Georgian ancestors they no doubt have since we know some were settled there, still claim Georgian ethnicity. I'm not disagreeing with your view of who ethnic Georgians are as I agree that Georgians regardless of religion are Georgians, but I am wondering where these figures are from as most of the sources I've consulted, including some books I've read about Georgia, including history, economcy, etc. mainly relate to some groups in the Caucasus, Russia, Turkey, while other regions aren't particularly referred to. The Iranic lands such as Iran and Afghanistan, I thought, had assimilated Georgians who no longer identified themselves as ethnic Georgians. Tombseye 09:33, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
My dear friend! Unfortunately, your information is not true! With best regards, Levan Z. Urushadze, 8 January, 2006.
Look Levan, maybe I'm wrong, but I'm asking for some information here. You can't put up figures unless there is some reliable evidence. Where did the 300,000 Afghans claim to be ethnic Georgians in the 20th century?! I was under the impression that even in Iran, they have been largely assimilated and no longer constitute a viablely separate group as they apparently don't even speak Georgian any more. Tombseye 08:28, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
About 150,000 Gurjs (Georgians) in Afganistan and about 100,000 in Iran claim to be ETHNIC GEORGIANS. Georgians in Iran SPEAK GEORGIAN. With best regards, Dr. Levan Z. Urushadze, 21 January 2006
I'm just asking for a source though. What source or survey or report shows that hundreds of thousands of people still claim Georgian ancestry and speak Georgian Afghanistan and Iran? I'm not against the possibility that you might be correct, but this is the first time I've heard of actualy speakers of Georgian in Afghanistan still. Like I said, I was under the assumption that most had been assimilated by the 19th century and in Iran the actual number of ethnic Georgians, according to most reference books is relatively small (this would again assume that most have assimilated into bigger groups). Now I know there are Armenians still, but as for Georgians, I just wanted some source for this information is all. Thanks. Tombseye 22:46, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Protected again

I've re-protected the page. Discuss changes here, please. Mark1 12:59, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not entirely convinced that page protection is necessary at the moment. There was a flurry of contentious edits earlier today, but they have stopped. It might have been interesting to see if they would start up again. However, it would be good to have some documented statement here from those involved about why they feel their version be better. --Gareth Hughes 13:14, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Dear friends! Yes, Stalin was ethnic Georgian, but he was a GREATEST ENEMY for Georgia: in 1921 he was a main organizer of occupation of sovereign Georgia by Bolshevik Russia; in 1921-1952 under Stalin's order were killed and jailed more than 100,000 Georgian patriots. Proceeding from mentioned above, Stalin was not a "Famous Georgian", he was a Famous Russian politician. With kind regards, Dr. Levan Z. Urushadze, Georgian historian. 5 January, 2006
To quote User:Tombseye:
Wikipedia should not be a nationalistic feel good encyclopedia to depict only people everyone likes or would like to represent them. If there were to be an Iraqis page (or an Iraqi Arabs page), Saddam would have to be there. Genghis Khan has to be on the Mongols page and Hitler is on the Germans page. Many Hungarians would argue for the inclusion of Attila and on the Romanians page we have Vlad the Impaler (although he could probably go both Hungarian or Romanian).
Please, I ask you, why does it matter that he was an enemy of his own people? He was still an ethnic Georgian. --Khoikhoi 00:02, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree, but there is a serious issue about sensitivity in placing a picture of Stalin at the top of the infobox. --Gareth Hughes 00:47, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
This seems to be a recurring problem and I guess I might as well weigh in here. The sensitivity issue is a huge problem indeed, but I think it does shed light on the impact Georgians have had on the world scene to include Stalin, good or bad. He probably hurt Russians more than he did Georgians (for whom he gave cultural autonomy, but of course treated them as harshly as everyone else, being an equal opportunity tyrant). Overall though, what's interesting is that when given a choice people want to be 'represented' by their most attractive and those who are seen as positive influences but that's subjective. Some people blanche at having Mao on the Han Chinese page and instead prefer Yao Ming. Mao's pretty one of the icons of China, good or bad. Genghis Khan's a hero in Mongolia, but a villain in China. I don't think it really hurts the image of Georgians to include their most famous son, because if people are going to be so narrow-minded as to believe that one person can represent them, they probably have a lot of issues anyway. Generally, this seems to be a way to gloss over the past for people and a pride thing rather than academic. With that said, Gareth makes a good point regarding sensitivity issues, but with that let's face it, no one will ever agree as to who should represent them. Might as well put it to a vote or something and let the chips fall where they may as with the "Macedonians" page. Tombseye 05:33, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Of course, Stalin was ethnic Georgian, but he was a tyrant and "Hitler" for his own people! He was one of the GREATEST ANTIGEORGIANS in the history of Georgia! He identified himself as Russian. Proceeding from mentioned above, I ask you to remove Stalin's picture from the infobox. With best regards, Dr. Levan Z. Urushadze, 6 January, 2006.
Yes, but you need to realize that this article is not just for Georigans. Khoikhoi correctly put it when he said that these articles are for everyone on wikipedia. You can't just put people up that you personally approve of. Stalin is probably the most famous Georgian ever and I'm not at all saying he was a good person and so think he needs to be on the collage of Georgians. These 'controversial' figures are resisted by lots of other people. On the Han chinese page there is resistance to Mao. On the Persian page there is resistance to Khomeini. And actually many people probably think Stalin was a Russian, which we all know is not true. Thus, the need for him to be on the Georgian people page. Tombseye 09:49, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
He is added on the article, but, please, remove Stalin's image! With best regards, Levan Z. Urushadze, 8 January, 2006.
Ok, his image was removed, but I don't see any reason to not mention him at all in the article. I added him back among the Georgian politicians. --Red Star 16:43, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] title

Should we consider to move this page to "Georgians" instead of "Georgian people"?Sosomk 09:19, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree, we should. Ldingley 20:05, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ibero-Caucasian People???

--85.117.56.99 13:43, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the term "Ibero-Caucasian People" is inappropriate, as it is not scientific and is purely theoretical and even more than that - it is nowadays considered to be wrong , as North and South Caucasian Languages show no linguistic relation. Georgians are not an Ibero-Caucasian people, but just South Cacuasian (Kartvelian) people...

Actually they are. Many sources use the term "Ibero-Caucasian people" which identifies kartvelian (ei South Caucasian people: Lazs, Chans, Svans, etc). Ldingley 20:04, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Photos

Please explain what are the criteria for selection of photos in the infobox. I do not understand why Princess Ekaterine Dadiani is included. Cann't comment on George Chavchavadze and Teymuraz Bagrationi, despite being Georgian I've never heard of them. Performing art people are clearly overrepresented. I would not include the current president of the state as well, if someone else gets elected soon should we put him here too? Stalin is by far the best recognizible Georgian, why not include him? Why forget Rustaveli? Tamokk 15:36, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

And the David the builders picture is an artists perception, and we have old frescos of him surviving. Tamokk 17:02, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

those images were selected randomly and not by any selection. They are ethnic Georgians and i didn’t hear any negative comments from any Georgian user. By placing Stalin’s face on that info box, i'll assure you that you'll have big opposition from Georgian users and from me personally. Its very sad that you are not informed about Teimuraz Bagrationi and George Chavchavadze. Soso and Kober please comment. Ldingley 17:05, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

)

While adding the Rustaveli portrait is indeed worthy to consider, I will never agree to add the photo of Stalin to the gallery. He never identified himself with Georgia and considered his native country a medieval rudiment. Teimuraz Bagrationi was the first Georgian author whose historic writings attracted the attention of European scholarship, thus paving a path to the development of the Kartvelian Studies.--Kober 17:25, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Image:Geopeoplerev005.jpg

How about this one? Ldingley 18:49, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
I see the idea now, a random choice. Well, not a bad idea, but one problem with it: Similar photos for most other nations are carefully selected, and I am afraid an average wikipadian already asumes this to be so for all articles about nations (as did I for Georgians). At least for this reason, I think selectivness will be good in this case. Ok. The saddest thing now to me is that we are having four or more art people here, as since the chocie is random this means that art people are overrepresented not only in these photos, but on wikipedia too. I think that Stalin should be included, but if I am in the minority I will not insist (but I do not think that I am in the minority :)). qarTvelebisTvis: raRac davwere saqarTvelos portalis ganxilvaze da naxet. Tamokk 18:59, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Who else should I add besides Stalin? Sergo Orjonikidze, Beria, Philip Makharadze, or maybe Igor Giorgadze?. Also i will suggest to Austrians to add Hitlers photo as he was very famouse and include also Mussolini for the Italians. Ldingley 19:11, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Strange, majority of people on Irish people are of arts and literature. And what is wrong with it? Are you sure Stalin is a better candidate than Jansur Kakidze and Liana Isakadze? Ldingley 19:15, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Stalin was not a major issue in what I have written. Nothing is wrong if art people are overrepresented, exept that it is only possible if others are underrepresented. My suggestion would be: David the builder, Queen Tamar, Rustaveli, Erekle 2, Pyotr Bagration, Ilia Chavchavadze, Takaishvili or javakhishvili or someone else, Stalin, Gamsakhurdia, Isakadze Tamokk 19:27, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

this would make historical figures in the first row. And Chavchavadze, a scientist, Stalin who was the most well-known Georgian, Gamsakhurdia first president of Georgia, and Isakadze who is a good representation of modern Georgian nation in the second row. Tamokk 19:27, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

But on the whole, this now version is better. Only I think we should better remove Saakashvili. Tamokk 19:30, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Stalin is out of the question. As much as Hitler is for Austrians or Germans. Ldingley 19:32, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
I think the newly proposed gallery is quite balanced and well selected. It represnts Georgia's monarchic past, ancient cultural heritage, modern cultural achievements, and most importantly, prominent leaders at various stages of the development of the Georgian national identity and state-building. Stalin was involved in none of these processes. On the contrary, he initiated the events which destroyed Georgia's first attempt to create a modern European nation-state that led to the demoralization of the Georgian society for the subsequent seven decades. As for Saakashvili, good or bad, he is the current national leader and he did start a new stage in the consolidation of the Georgian state, a process which is largely regarded as a delayed transition in the post-Soviet history of Georgia. Many foreigners learned about Georgia after the Rose Revolution. Kober 19:48, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Image:Geopeoplerev006.jpg
Here last one. Ldingley 20:12, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Ok lets leave Stalin out. About Saakashvili: I opose his inclusion not because he is "good or bad", but exactly because he is "the current national leader". If we want take into account the recent political events we'd better put the photo of Zurab Zhvania, who passed away. He was involved in Rose revolution, and if not much of an "action figure" during the revolution, the political changes of which kober speaks were first initiated by him.

Or Isakadze for Saakashvili.

Dear Tamokk, I would not make a big deal of the infobox pictures. In addition, I would not argue with User:Ldingley, because he ha done an amazing job about the articles related Georgia and Georgians. As far as Stalin, I would say No :):) and I think I represet the majority of Georgian citizens. He might be well known person, but putting him here, because that he was a member of Georgian ethnic Group is just wrong. He did not belong to Georgian Georgian Nation-State or has done anything exceptional for it. Most of all, I think Georgia has enough well known people than being proud of Stalin or Beria, when really there is nothing about them to be proud of. As far as Misha's picture I think Saakashvili kind of deserved to be there. If anybody disagrees his political moves, at least he was elected by 94% od Georgians citizens for God's sake. :) If you would like we cn put Nikoloz Baratashvili, Vaja Pshavela, John Bagrationi and etc. There is not any ranking or Georgians or something like that. As Akaki Tsereteli would say nobody can count Georgian heroes. Sosomk 20:48, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
I do not know what you mean by "Saakashvili kind of deserved to be there". Right, we should not make big deal of these pictures, they are not about deserving or something. I did not say anything about Mishas politics, my point was that I do not like the idea of taking an acting political figure, whoever he is, as a representative of a nation. Tamokk 00:22, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I mean that thanks God Georgia is a democratic nation-state and 96% of the Georgian people elected him to be the president of the nation. Indeed, you have to deserve to be on the infobox. I can't just go ahead and put my pic on there. As far as living people, Sean Connery is also a living guy and he is on the Scottish people page. Sosomk 13:30, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
One question then. If somebody else get elected president of Georgia soon should we remove Saakashvili and put him. It is your personal point ov view that Saakashvili deserved to be in that gallary. Regards. dzalian ar gabrazde, bobosdabolos qartul vikipediashi raindis wodeba moganichet. tamok
Tamok, if you really want, we can even put your picture there. :) Ldingley 15:46, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Are you sure that it's not already there? :) Misha is know for his humble personality. Tamokk 18:11, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Heh :) I never understood why Georgians tend to dislike Presidents of their country :)Ldingley 18:19, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
On the contrary, we always elect them with no less then 80%. Tamokk 18:42, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Like Gamsakhurdia who was ousted by armed criminal coup? Or Shevardnadze by armed roses? :) Ldingley 18:53, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Do not you want to visit Goergia? No coups seem to be coming up in the near future. :) Tamokk 19:14, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I visited Georgia during the Abkhazia war, first coup in Tbilisi, Rose Revolution and so on. I don’t want to see any coups. God forbid. That time of coups and wars has ended in Georgia. Ldingley 19:23, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
BTW can you help out with these articles? Nino Chavchavadze and Alexander Chavchavadze. Ldingley 19:24, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I would like, but with my limited knowledge ნწუ, as we say in Georgian nowdays.
Hey guys. Let's give Misha a chance. If he succeeds in successfully lobbying for Georgia's ascension into NATO within the span of two years, we'll keep his photo in the gallery forever. If he fails, we will replace his photo with that of Comrade Giorgadze. :))))--Kober 19:30, 21 September 2006 (UTC) P.S. Luis, I'll join you on both articles tomorrow. Now I am going to bed. Goodnight, Wikipedia. :)--Kober 19:30, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Comrade Giorgadze, that was a good one :0) good night Kober! Ldingley 20:30, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Dear Tamokk, thank you so much for the award, it made me very happy. In addition, I was not mad, I was just offering my point of view. You know, a good argument is a foundation of making a right decision. Personally, I like Misha a lot and I hope that we are not gonna have any Coup in the future :):). Look at Thailand, the Prime minister is at the Assembly in NY and he is not longer in power in his country :). I hope that the time of confusion and insecurity is gone and today Georgian Society should be united. We might disagree politically, but we will have to share our social consensus about the freedom and libery of the nation and its efforts towards the better future through liberal democratic way which I think is already a built-in aspect of our people. Sosomk 17:08, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
  • It is crazy not to have a picture of Stalin in the infobox, he was the most important and influential Georgian in history, he should be represented; same goes to Hitler. I'm assuming his pic was omitted before because it might be offensive, don't worry about it being offensive..nobody's going to burst into tears or anything just because of a picture.

Also, there is something wrong with the picture with the caption that reads "Georgian children from Svaneti" in the Gallery. That is the main reason I joined in on this convo. If it could be checked to see if it's not just me, that would be greeeeeeeat. - Clown57

[edit] getting off the topic :)

In fact I am not against Saakashvili very much. But, why dislike Stalin so much? I would not put him in the company of Mussolini, Mao and others. Tamok

Yes, you have a point. He is still a part of history, but he is not the subject of national pride. Sosomk 02:47, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
About national pride: he certainly was, ask our forefathers :).
I don't know how many of your forefathers went in the WW2, but my ancestors fought a lot, some of which never came back and I am proud to say that I am their descent. (Not Proud of Stalin.:) Sosomk 16:26, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Both of my grandfathers were in WW2. But Stalin was a national pride for many Georgians that time. Tamok

[edit] King Tamar

It really bothers me that King Tamar (Tamar Mepe) it refered to as Queen Tamar. This is incorrect. Tamar Mepe made everybody call her King Tamar because she felt she was on the same level as men.

Just a thought.


[edit] Beautiful women

This article says that Georgian women are well known for their beauty. That seems to be rather POV, and what is meant by it? Are Georgian women more beautiful than women of other nationalities? What is meant by well known for their beauty? JdeJ 20:27, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

The phrase was changed as per your request. Thanks for reading the article! Ldingley 18:57, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
I guess it is more of a common knowledge stereotype. It is not a POV statement. Sosomk 19:06, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
It's not that I doubt that many Georgian women are beautiful, but that could be said for Armenian, Russian, Scandiavian, Italian, French or almost any other nation, could it not? JdeJ 19:28, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Sure, we can do that. You can go ahead and edit the articles about Armenian, French, Italian women. I don't think that statement makes that much of a differece or requires that much of a discussion. I am sure we can cite it using on of the travel guides to Georgia. Sosomk 20:46, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
for example, germans are coidered talented in music, mozart, bach beethoven and etc. Sosomk 20:50, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't think the Austrians would like hearing their greatest composer being called a German :-) Ok, but two things:
1. You could easily name many famous German composers. If we talked about French, Italian or Spanish beauties, most people could name quite a number. Katie Melua is very cute, but that's the only Georgian woman I've heard of.
2. Even so, you don't find the page on Germans saying that "Germans are very musical" but you do find a section devouted to famous German composers and musicians. It's not the fact I object to here, it's the non-encyclopedic way it's presented. JdeJ 20:58, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Oh, man, you really got on that one:):). I hope Austrian don't mind that I am being poltically incorrect about their Austrian-Bavarian pride. However, I can provide a counter-argument that for that time it was Holy Roman Empire. Sosomk 17:46, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

My suggestion would be to say in the article that Georgia is well known for cheeseburgers, another common knowledge stereotype. Then we could of course support this statement with such undisputable examples as imeruli khaxhafuri, acharuli khachapuri, achma and penovani. Tamokk

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