Talk:Georgian-Ossetian conflict (1918-1920)

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1. This article is presented only from the modern Ossetian POV; 2. The events do not exactly match the description “an inter-ethnic conflict.” The main reason behind the conflict was the dissatisfaction of the Ossetian peasants with the land reform in Georgia. Furthermore, Georgian Bolsheviks fought for the Ossetians. On the other hand, there were Ossetian officers in the Menshevik People’s Guard. 3. The article says nothing about the role of Bolsheviks and Soviet Russia in the conflict. 4. The article does not even mention the massacre of Georgians organized after the Ossetian attack on Tskhinvali, which then had virtually no Ossetian population. 5. This entire genocide staff is a product of modern nationalist myth-making though the reaction of the Georgian government was indeed harsh. 6. The death tolls estimated at 3,000-5,000 refers not only to the ethnic Ossetian population, but also to Georgians, Armenians, Jews and Russians who suffered in the conflict.

Hence, I'm tagging the article as POV. --Kober 15:42, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Of cource yes. I hope your may expand it.. But I think that the article should represent the main ideas of Ossetians, as they often refer to this event as a genocide. The article should explain why. --Üntïflër (ә?) 16:00, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

OK. I'll try to balance the article with some Georgian and Western sources. I hope this will make the text more neutral. How about to rename the article into Ossetian Uprising? I think it is more accurate and frequently applied name. The conflict was more political (Bolsheviks vs. Mensheviks) then ethnic.--Kober 16:08, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I wish you said the same about the Red Army invasion of Georgia. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 17:00, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean? --Kober 17:16, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Never mind :) So, what about renaming... However, Ossetian and Georgian could be used to designate the territory, but not only the ethnicy of combatants. As for me, there is no difference in the matter of conflict, if we use the current name. As for me, if the article will be named ... uprising it means that Ossetians rebeled against something, that was established much more before the uprising. But since the establishment of GDR Ossetians were discordant with Menshevik/Georgian rule. So, they, as well as Georgians were a part of Russian Empire. In general, they had equal rights with Georgians to establish own state. As for me, another version should be offered. --Üntïflër (ә?) 20:36, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok. Let’s leave the current title. Actually, S. Ossetia was part of Tiflis Gubernia under Imperial Russia. After the February Revolution, the Russian Provisional Government placed these lands under the authority of the Transcaucasian Commissariat which declared independence following the Bolshevik coup in October. When the Ossetians first rose in arms, there was no DRG, but the Transcaucasian Democratic Federative Republic and S. Ossetia was considered as its part. The Ossetian National Council had actually operated chiefly in N. Ossetia and enjoyed no real power in the south until this body was completely Bolshevicized and tasked to guide an uprising against the Menshevik government of Georgia.

However, now it (National Council) is not mentioned in the article, but probably should... Ossetian source mentioned it's first congress in Java, Georgia, as it was perviously written... That means Ossetians also had some local legislature at the first time. Even later this council played a minor role. So, if you have no problem to read Russian text, it was mentioned in the link I'd listed --Üntïflër (ә?) 21:32, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry. I did not omit it intentionally. I'll add some more info about the Council tomorrow, if you don't mind. It's already 1.38 AM here, in Tbilisi.--Kober 21:40, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

It's strange but I suggested that Tbilisi is western than Kazan, where actually 0:46 AM is... --Üntïflër (ә?) 21:46, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Btw, the harshness by which the Georgian People’s Guard suppressed the revolt aroused criticism even in the Parliament of Georgia, but the Ossetian statistics are exaggerated and probably include also Georgian casualties. --Kober 21:15, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Do you have any information about causalities of all sides, or only common number? --Üntïflër (ә?) 21:32, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, the exact numbers are not known. Most of the sources say the number of dead from both sides were approximately 5,000-7,000, including 3,000-5,000 Ossetians.--Kober 21:40, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

And wat was a ratio Bolsheviks-to-Mensheviks ? :) --Üntïflër (ә?) 21:46, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

It is really very difficult to say. All I know for sure is that Ossetians suffered more losses. --Kober 12:00, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Population transfer during the conflict

As it was notised in that Russian-language article, many Ossetians stayed in the North Ossetia, after the conflict. More over, the lands that Ossetians deserted, was setteled by Georgians from Dusheti and Kazbegi regions.--Üntïflër (ә?) 11:43, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

This is only partially true. Many places were indeed depopulated and then repopulated when the Ossetians returned after the Soviets took control of Georgia in 1921. The population transfer primarily affected the predominantly Ossetian Java district and some other areas northwest of Tskhinvali where Ossetians are now in majority. The claims concerning "Georgian colonization" are false. Georgians always lived in the region even before the Alans/Ossetian arrival there in the 14th-17th centuries.--Kober 11:57, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

No doubt that they always lived, but probably as some Ossetian population was killed or havn't return to Soth Ossetia, it's more likely that their land was setteled by their neighbour, and most likely, Georgian peasants. So, even that article', as it is Osssetia-sided, hush up facts, such as massacre of Georgians in Tskhinvali, it's very likely, that facts they stated took place at least partly. So, an information on this, probably minor, population transfer should be added, not to say that Georgians never lived in Ossetia, but to say, that it was so. Probably, it should be tagged that it is claimed by Osetian sources.--Üntïflër (ә?) 15:04, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Is it now OK? --Kober 15:53, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

OK! Now I find the article neutral as it possible can be, so I leave you alone :) --Üntïflër (ә?) 15:59, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Always glad to cooperate. Thanks, Kober 16:06, 19 November 2006 (UTC)