Talk:George Armstrong Custer

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[edit] Rank?

"He was first lieutenant in the 7th cavalry when he fell with his brother at the Little Big Horn." I'm not a specialist in American ranks, but I think a lieutenant is less than a General. --Braunbaer 19:46 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

That's Tom Custer who was the lieutenant. - Hephaestos 19:49 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)
http://www.linecamp.com/museums/americanwest/western_names/custer_george_armstrong/custer_george_armstrong.html and
http://www.nps.gov/libi/custer.html indicate he (not his brother) does as "lieutenant colonel". --Braunbaer 20:15 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Right, he was a lieutenant colonel at Little Big Horn. He had previously been a general during the American Civil War, but lost rank due to reduction in service after the war. - Hephaestos 22:00 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Actually, the 'General' was a brevet rank, non-official. It's a bit hard to explain nowadays, but through the Civil War officers could receive 'brevet' promotions for meritorious service or special acheivements. After the conflict, because they had basically 'jumped the ranks' for the emergency, the brevet was rescended and the officer went back to his original place in the promotion order, but Custom had it that he continued to be introduced by the higher rank in social circles. If I recall correctly, the brevet promotions were dropped by World War 1. Custer was court-martialed in 1867 for later actions (disobeying orders, AWOL but basicaly deserting his command). CFLeon 23:05, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
No, Custer was appointed brigadier general of volunteers in June 1863, brevet major general USV in October 1864, brevet major general USA (regular army) in March 1865 and major general USV in April 1865. Brevet was an honorary promotion, as you say, that was replaced in the 20th century by awarding medals rather than pretend ranks. So he was a real major general by the end of the war, but as with all USV ranks, he reverted to a lower USA rank, in this case lieutenant colonel of the 7th U.S. Cavalry in July 1866. Hal Jespersen 01:15, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Tom Custer was a captain at the time of his death, having been promoted to that rank in December 1875 (see: http://www.medalofhonor.com/ThomasCuster.htm)

[edit] John Napier?

It is said that Custer has been represented by John Napier, leading to a link to that John Napier who died in the 17th century. Obviously not the same Napier. Someone knowledgeable in this area should correct this mistake.

[edit] Alternate History Relevance?

Does anyone else think that the paragraph on alternate history Custer is totally irrelevant for the article? At least the size of a whole paragraph is inappropriate, also considering that there are a lot more fictional works that deal with Custer in one way or the other, that aren't mentioned. If this has to stay in the article at all, I'd say that a short reference in the trivia or literature section linking to the Turtledove article is enough. 80.140.242.116 22:11, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Someone(s) with Wiki likes Turtledove and adds the alternate history paragraph often Ralph15Feb06

[edit] cleanup

I expanded the section on the Civil War quite a bit and attempted to clean up the rest. I have very little knowledge of the Indian Wars and think that more work is probably needed on that section and a discussion of his controversial legacy. Hal Jespersen 16:50, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Racist?

I find the word hostile in the following paragraph to be a bit ethnocentric/racist.

"This delayed a scheduled expedition against the hostile Lakota and Northern Cheyenne tribes, in which Custer was to be involved."

Imagine that you're a 12-year-old kid doing research for a school project, you may just think Custer was justified in his actions, since of course the Native American tribes were "hostile."

I think the word "hostile" is acceptable (because it's true) as long as the reasons why they were hostile are set out clearly. Someone said "They were fighting for everything God gives anyone to fight for- land, homes and family."
Hostiles was the language of the day.Like the opposite of 'tame' Indian.

[edit] Author's Opinion

The following has no place in an encyclopedia:

"Recent films and books including Little Big Man and Son of the Morning Star depict Custer as a cruel and murderous military commander whose actions today would warrant possible dismissal and court-martial. Much of this revisionism is unwarranted. Custer met Native Americans in battle just three times: Washita, where the Native American losses were small; Yellowstone skirmishes, and Little Big Horn. "

The comment about "Recent films..." are necessary. Historical facts must be protected. Very good article.

[edit] Wikipedia Meets Custer

  • If you don't like the phrasing of something, hit the "edit this article" button and rephrase it. Also, you can automatically sign your comments but putting four tildes after your statements: ~~~~ jengod 06:21, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Time Life Series

The Old West book The Soldiers isn't near as nice to Georgie as this article was.By it,and everything else I've read,Custer was a fool whose men hated his guts.How reliable do you guys think these books are?Saltforkgunman 02:01, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

There was no middle ground with Custer - either you adored him or absolutely loathed him. There are a few books and articles written by survivors of the Little Big Horn, and some of these describe in detail what the common cavalryman thought of the once Boy General. Keep in mind that in the Civil War, Custer's aggressiveness and military competency was quite good, and under a demanding taskmaster (Sheridan), Custer rose in prominence to the point where he was present at Lee's surrender. However, he wasn't fighting the Army of Northern Virginia using conventional tactics at Little Big Horn. Scott Mingus 11:49, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, growing up I always received the impression that Custer was a fool who's gross mis-understanding of the situation caused his death, but after reading this article, it seems the truth is quite different. While there is no doubt that his attack was... presumeptious, there is also no doubt that the guy was fearless in the face of adversity. That in itself is more than most generals. Here was a warrior that was ultimately let down by the incompetence of his subordinate (however, perhaps his real mistake was thinking that others were as brave, or foolish, as he). Too bad his many acts of heroism in the civil war have been all but forgotten in the mists of time.

I too was under the impression that General Custer was less than the great leader that popular culture of late has portrayed him. Clearly, he was a great leader and it was the incompetence and cowardice of his captains that turned Little Big Horn into a disaster rather than the victory it very well could have been. --Jtpaladin 19:18, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Geneology Overkill

Is there really a point in listing 5 generations? He wasn't a king. Clarityfiend 23:20, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

[Hee-hee]. I agree, but we seem to have one or more Custer idolators lurking about. They even have their own Category! (Some Stonewall Jacksonites are out there, too.) But, there are a lot more trivial facts on Wikipedia than this. Hal Jespersen 01:12, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
The Geneology is missing Lydia, I'll have to find my notes and include her. CFLeon 00:32, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
It really doesn't seem appropriate for an encyclopedia entry; far too detailed. I've removed it. Shimgray | talk | 20:11, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Editing & Cleanup

I removed some biased remarks and cleaned up the layout a bit. Also, if you're going to have a Timeline, it needs to have more than just the dates of Birth and Death to it... CFLeon 00:24, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Some more clean-up and reorganization. I hope it flows a bit better in the Popular Culture section now. Also removed who played Tom and Boston in various productions, as it's irrelevant in this entry. If someone thinks it's important, put it on Tom's or Boston's pages. Lastly, I'm amazed that no one else caught the mistaken date for his graduation in the timeline! CFLeon 21:42, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, amazing things happen. I find that these small and superficial timeline sections that someone persists in adding are pretty worthless, so do not bother to check their contents closely. (If they were comprehensive and included full dates instead of simply years, that would be another matter.) Hal Jespersen 23:00, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
I actually agree- I don't like the Timeline myself. But I felt that since someone put it up, it should be accurate and have more to it than 'Birth' & 'Death'. (And what do the Census Reports have to due with Custer in particular, anyway??? The article needs to include every Census he appears on????) CFLeon 01:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
If 2 or 3 people agree, we could just delete it and see what happens. Anyone else agree? Hal Jespersen 14:36, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Another vote to get rid of it. Timelines are not common in most biographies, although you do occasionally see them. Scott Mingus 19:22, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, here I go. If I get into a reversion war, somebody please step in to assist. Hal Jespersen 20:23, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] possible misleading Sitting Bull reference

In the introductory paragraph it says that the coalition of Natives was led by Sitting Bull, as this is true, it is somewhat misleading as Sitting Bull was not involved in the fighting. the two Indians that could best be described as military leaders for the Sioux were Crazy Horse and White Bull, the nephew of Sitting Bull


[edit] Let's stick with history and leave out the socio-political apologetics

I took it upon myself to remove the followng statement.

"Others equate the actions of the 7th Cavalry under his command with Holocaust-type atrocities perpetrated during World War II, or with ethnic cleansing of the 1990s."

This is clearly just an apologetic statement (and a rather melodramatic one) for the opinion that the Indians were the victims and the whites were the evil ones. It contributes nothing to the discussion of Custer and does not belong in an encyclopedia. At the very least, these "Others" should be named. If a citation is included, and it's a true academic source and not some modern political commentator, then I suppose it could be re-inserted. But, as is, it has to go.

[edit] German ancestry

Perhaps it should be mentioned, that his ancestry came from Westphalia in Northern Germany. They emigrated and arrived in America in the 17th century. The original family name was "Küster".

[edit] Custer in Census

--Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 08:32, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Curley Myth

Though I've edited other Wikipedia articles in the past, I hesitate to do so and infringe on the original author's rights and intent.

As an over-view, this is a competent ,often insightful , and generally factual report on a volatile and controversial topic.

There is, however, one glaring misstatement, and that is about the Crow scout "Curley" surviving the battle. This story is completely spurious and was denied both by Curley himself (repeatedly) and by the other Crow scouts, most notably by White Man Runs Him. The Crows were released from service once the Lakota village was found and none participated in the combat.

Documentation for this exists in a large number of sources. One of the most definitive of the "earlier" books on the battle (those published prior to the archaeological investigations of the LBH site in the 1980s and 1990s) is Col. W. A. Graham's The Custer Myth (Harrisburg, PA: Bonanza Books,1953). Graham assembled previously published interviews from a large number of the battle's surviving participants, including the above mentioned White Man Runs Him (first published in 1919) and several interviews with Curley himself, including the last to be completed before the scout's death in 1923. These interviews can be found in Chapter 3 of Graham's book, "The Crows," pp. 3-25. The "survivor" story is debunked in all of them.

Evan S. Connell also addresses the unreliability of the tale on pp. 314-316 of Son Of The Morning Star (San Francisco: North Point Press, 1984).

The only verified survivor of the cavalry forces in the Custer Hill/Last Stand phase of the battle was the horse Comanche, ridden in the battle by Company I commander Myles Keogh, who had received the horse from GAC himself as a gift. Comanche lived out his days as an honored mascot of the 7th Cavalry. When he died, he was stuffed and mounted and remains to this day on display at the University of Kansas Natural History Museum. http://nhm.ku.edu/Hdocs/Comanche.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sensei48 (talk • contribs) 22:30, 9 December 2006 (UTC).

I hope that the original author of this otherwise fine article on Custer will take note.

J.K. Moran

[When I first saw this posting, I thought: "Did the Three Stooges do a movie about Custer?" :-)] Joking aside, there is no single author for this article, so you are invited to jump in and make responsible edits. I contributed a good deal of the information about the American Civil War, but have little expertise about his career after 1865. Hal Jespersen 00:45, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
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