Talk:Georg Cantor

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[edit] Russian or German?

E.T.Bell in Men of Mathematics says that Cantor was born in St. Petersburg but moved to Frankfurt, Germany in 1956. "From this medley of nationalities it is possible for several fatherlands to claim Cantor as their son. Cantor himself favored Germany, but it cannot be said that Germany favored him very cordially." (MoM, 1937, p.558-559.

I can see something wrong here: "...was a German mathematician who is..." and "...He was born in Saint Petersburg Russia, the..."

he was german or russian? he born in russia, but why does he apear like german in some online documents?. i'm researching for spanish version and can't find a safe exit to this.--Arias Levhita 22:14, Jul 15, 2004 (UTC)


Nationality was not as well defined in Cantor's day as it is in ours. For example, most European nations did not even issue passports! Cantor was born in Russia of a Russian mother. But her name was German, and her religion, Roman Catholic, was rather anomalous for Russia. Georg's father was of Danish (and ultimately Jewish) origin. Cantor was given an impeccable German name. The family had no difficulty in moving to Germany, if only because there was no German national authority in 1856. Georg spoke and wrote perfect German, and so was completely accepted by the German educational system. I have never read that Cantor experienced subtle prejudice because he was felt not to be truly German. 19th century north Germany was culturally very far from the Third Reich, an Austrian and south German invention. In my opinion, Cantor's career was a fairly distinguished one, more distinguished than Frege's at Jena, for example. Cantor wanted more than what fate handed to him, but perhaps that says more about Cantor's very high opinion of himself than about the alleged smugness of his fellow German mathematicians. Note that Kronecker's death in 1891 led to no improvement in Cantor's career, mainly because by then he was largely finished as a creative mathematician.

Cantor wrote in German and knew French well. Otherwise, he was a fine cultured cosmopolitan northern European, free of ugly nationalism. We can all take him for what he was, and celebrate that.202.36.179.65 23:55, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] On Cantors nationality

Cantors mother was of Austrian descent, his father was raised in a German Lutheran mission in St. Petersburg. Both parents spoke German and their children were raised in a German cultural environment (which was no problem at that time when aggressive nationalism was still far away, e.g. the foreign policy of the Russian Empire was guided by Karl Nesselrode, a Baltic German baron as foreign minister and chancellor of Russia for almost forty years between 1816 and 1856).

Cantor himself wrote 1896:

Thatsache ist allein folgendes:
Mein seliger, im Iahre 1863, in Deutschland verstorbener Vater Georg Woldemar Cantor kam als Kind mit seiner Mutter nach St. Petersburg und wurde dort alsdald lutherisch getauft. Er ist aber in Kopenhagen (ich weiss nicht genau in welchem Iahre, etwa zwischen 1810-15) geboren, von israelitischen Eltern, die der dortigen portugisischen Iudengemeinde angehoerten und daher hoechstwahrscheinlich spanisch-portugisischen Ursprungs waren.
Meine Mutter, Marie Cantor, geb. Boehm, die jetzt seit 1863 in Berlin lebt, ist eine geborene Petersburgerin, gehoert einer roemisch-katholischen Familie an, die aus Oesterreich stammt. Mein Grossvater muetterlicherseits Franz Boehm war Kaiserl. Russ. Concertmeister und Violinvirtuose in St. Petersburg; auch dessen Frau, meine Grossmutter Maria Boehm, geb. Morawek war Violinvirtuosin.
Fact is the following:
My late father Georg Woldemar Cantor, who passed away in Germany in 1863, came to St. Petersburg as a child together with his mother and was baptized in Lutheran church there. He was born in Copenhagen (I do not know the exact date, approximately between 1810-15) to Jewish parents who were members of the Portuguese Jewish community and hence were most likely of Spanish-Portuguese descent.
My mother, Marie Cantor, nee Boehm, who is living in Berlin since 1863, is born in St. Petersburg and is a member of a Roman Catholic family descending from Austria. My grandfather on the mother's side Franz Boehm was Imperial Russian Concertmaster and a virtuoso on the violin in St. Petersburg; his wife, my grandmother Maria Boehm, nee Morawek, was also a violin virtuoso.

(sorry for the imperfect translation)

Furfur 12 June 2006 (CET)

[edit] Christian or Jewish?

Georg cantor is listed both in List of Jewish scientists and philosophers and in List of Christian scientists. Which one is right? Was he Christian or Jewish? --Fibonacci 04:00, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Well, according to footnotes in http://www.jinfo.org/Philosophers.html,
4. In Men of Mathematics, Eric Temple Bell described Cantor as being "of pure Jewish descent on both sides," although both parents were baptized. In a 1971 article entitled "Towards a Biography of George Cantor," the British historian of mathematics Ivor Grattan-Guinness claimed (Annals of Science 27, pp. 345-391, 1971) to be unable to find any evidence of Jewish ancestry (although he conceded that Cantor's wife, Vally Guttmann, was Jewish). However, a letter written by Georg Cantor to Paul Tannery in 1896 (Paul Tannery, Memoires Scientifique 13, Correspondance, Gauthier-Villars, Paris, 1934, p. 306) explicitly acknowledges that Cantor's paternal grandparents were members of the Sephardic community of Copenhagen. In a recent book, The Mystery of the Aleph: Mathematics, the Kabbalah, and the Search for Infinity (Four Walls Eight Windows, New York, 2000. pp. 94, 144), Amir Aczel provides new evidence in the form of a letter, recently uncovered by Nathalie Charraud, that was written by Georg Cantor's brother Louis to their mother. This letter seems to indicate that she was also of Jewish descent, as Bell had claimed originally.
In other words, good question. --jpgordon{gab} 04:08, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Depends on your definition of "Jewish", right? Some definitions would make your question have an exclusive "or". Dauben, the reigning Cantor expert, mentions the info Jpgordon gives above, but he also adds that Cantor was not Jewish "in an orthodox rabbinical sense, since his mother was a Roman Catholic". This is from Dauben's book on Cantor. However, as the whole book makes clear, Cantor was a very devout Christian, making theological researches into the nature of the Trinity even. He was also baptized a Lutheran. So Cantor should definitely be listed as a Christian. I don't know whether all this makes him Jewish --Chan-Ho Suh 03:45, Dec 5, 2004 (UTC)
My definition makes that an exclusive "or". I'm asking about his beliefs, not about his heritage. But you have already answered my question. --Fibonacci 15:41, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I put him on the new and improved List of Christian thinkers in science. He could be Jewish, by culture or Jewish law of maternal inheritance, but still fit that considering his theological research. In fact I think I put one or two other Jewish scientists there as you can be both.--T. Anthony 13:28, 23 January 2006 (UTC)


Cantor was a Christian, born of Christian parents. He never referred to himself as a Jew. Moreover, he was far more enthusiastic about Christianity in his intellectual activities than was in any way required. If Jewishness is defined by beliefs and practices, Cantor was not a Jew at all.

Nevertheless, the name Cantor is very Jewish. Evidently, he descended from Jews who had converted to Christianity, a situation not all that rare then or now. If Jews are seen as a human tribal community related by descent, than he was a Jew of sorts. That his father was a stockbroker, and that he pursued abstruse mathematics are facts consistent with this. The high level of musical and literary culture in the Cantor home are consistent with this. So was Cantor's friendship with Edmund Husserl, a Jew who converted to Lutheranism in 1887. Keep in mind here that there are a few Jews who recognize Christ as the Messiah and who revere the New Testament, but who proudly describe themselves as Jews. Quite a few Jews in their day-to-day lives accept Jewish converts to Christianity as fellow Jews for certain purposes. You would not necessarily want your Jewish son to marry one but... In any event, I submit that a tribal understanding of Jewishness has more predictive power than a faith one.202.36.179.65 23:43, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I welcome any correction of my rewrite BY EXPERTS.

I invite anyone expert in foundational mathematics to go through "Work" carefully, and to make any required changes.202.36.179.65 23:45, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Did Cantor have all that hard a life?

There is so much talk at the Eric Temple Bell level of the frustrations and indignities Cantor experienced. Yet the more I read about Cantor, the more I doubt he was all that hard done by. I have formulated a working hypothesis about his personality: he was one of those academics who deemed the rejection of his papers by an editor or referee as a personal insult and intolerable indignity. We academics all know the type! Moreover Cantor:

  • Grew up in a wealthy family. Because he inherited from his father when he was 18, Cantor was able to raise a family of 6 on a meagre academic salary; had 2 sons and four daughters, although the names of his children are no where to be found.
  • Made full professor by age 34 (for 19th century Germany, that was quite soon in life);
  • Enjoyed the friendship and support of Dedekind. And sometimes Weierstrass helped Cantor;
  • Founded the Mathematische Verein in 1890 and was elected its first president. An obvious mark of respect;
  • Enjoyed the friendship and respect of Edmund Husserl, his colleague at Halle, 1886-1901.
  • His mother and youngest brother died in 1899

I have just read that nothing has been found in Kronecker's personal papers bearing out Cantor's belief that Kronecker was conducting a personal vendetta against him. That Cantor despised Kronecker is amply attested to by Cantor's letters to, e.g., Mittag-Leffler.

When Kronecker died in 1891, he sank into near-oblivion and remained there until Errett Bishop's 1967 book showed that constructive real analysis is possible. Meanwhile, Cantor's reputation has walked on air. Of how many can it be said that their posthumous reputations are crowned in glory in a Paradise of their own invention? Was Cantor alive when Hilbert spoke his awesome sentence?

All in all, a sunnier life than Frege's in nearby Jena. As for obtaining a better job than Halle, Cantor's nervous breakdown of 1884, and the resulting permanent reduction of his mathematical productivity made it understandable that he could not find another job. throughout hitory, many are the geniuses who spend their entire careers at provincial universities. Look at Dedekind, Peano.202.36.179.65 19:06, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Limitation of size

The recent changes are generally well-written and useful, but unfortunately perpetuate the common misconceptions about "naive set theory" and "axiomatic set theory" discussed at Talk:Naive set theory. Something needs to be done about the following problematic passage:

In any event, these two paradoxes, along with Russell's paradox, are why Cantor's approach to set theory, now termed "naive," has been superseded by the axiomatic set theory of Zermelo and others.

In fact, the modern interpretation of set theory in the von Neumann universe does not need to be thought of axiomatically, and it is not at all clear that Russell's paradox attaches to Cantor's conception of set (though it definitely attaches to Frege's). Cantor certainly did not have (or at least did not publish) a clear picture like the von Neumann universe, but he did have a concept, called limitation of size, capable of blocking the paradoxes. Unfortunately I don't know much about the concept in detail, but it should at least be mentioned, rather than leaving the impression that Cantor did nothing but leave a mess that Zermelo had to clean up. --Trovatore 23:34, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fact check needed

I need someone to check me on the time frame in which Cantor formulated limitation of size. Was it really after the discovery of Cantor's paradox, as my text in the article implies? Once this is resolved, please remove the following code from the "Work" section of the article:

<sup>''[[Talk:Georg Cantor#Limitation of size|fact check needed]]''</sup>

Thanks, Trovatore 04:18, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually I also need someone to check the originator of the idea. I don't have Hallett's book, but from what I could find by browsing it at amazon, it looks like the idea, or at least the phrase, may have come from Jourdain. But "inconsistent multiplicities" is still Cantor's terminology, isn't it? Does someone have a reference for his meaning for that phrase? --Trovatore 06:22, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A Question

A curious and ignorant reader - myself - was also puzzled by the question of Cantor's Jewishness. There is the name and the use of the Hebrew alphabet in apparent conflict with the historical geneaology. I see now that it is a "good question" and I wish to post some speculation / further questioning. Cantor evidently had an Ego. Is it possible; anywhere hinted; that he used the Hebrew alphabet in an attempt to set his theory alongside the earliest, most fundamental, creations of arithmetic? Hebrew being the oldest recognizable language; Egyptian hieroglyphics and ancient Sumerian being a little too old ? ?--Therealhrw 06:59, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cantor's Jewish heritage again

An anon has deleted the notation that the name Cantor is Jewish, claiming in the edit summary that it isn't always Jewish. Maybe that's so, I don't know. But I think in Cantor's specific case, his Jewish ancestry is established; Dauben quotes a letter (as I recall) in which he talks about his israelitische grandparents. If the anon is right that the name is not always Jewish, then the point needs rephrasing, but should not just be removed.

Does anyone know of a surname Cantor that doesn't come from a Jewish background? If so, just how should we rephrase? --Trovatore 03:38, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


Cantor is also German, French, Hungarian, Czech, and Polish in origin. Transliterations from "Kantor" and "Canter" both of which don't have Jewish ties. We're relying too much on the discussions of www.jinfo.org to know for sure if Cantor's father was a Sephardic Jew. For one thing, "Cantor" (when taken in a Jewish senese) is Ashkenazic in origin, not Sephardic. Also, the only evidence (anywhere for that matter) that Cantor's father may have been Jewish is from a letter he wrote (it should be noted, the actual letter is written with some poetic intent) where he used the wording: "meine israelitischen Grosseltern" or "my Israelite ancestry". It truly makes no sense why Cantor, who's wife was Jewish, would be so secretive about his own Jewish ancestry to be so vague about it. Why use such wording as "israelite" instead of "juden" or 'Jewish'? From that small quote, an author derived the following translation:

(George Woldemar Cantor) he is there however in _ Copenhagen _ (I white not exactly in which Iahre, approximately between 1810-15) born, from _ Israeli parents _, who the there _ portugisischen Iudengemeinde belonged _ and was most likely therefore _ Spanish portugisischen _ origin.

Notice how it is based completely on assumption that Cantor's father is portuguese Jewish.

Other the other hand, the evidence against Cantor's father being Jewish is much more "official":

More often the question has been discussed of whether Georg Cantor was of Jewish origin. About this it is reported in a notice of the Danish genealogical Institute in Copenhagen from the year 1937 concerning his father: "It is hereby testified that Georg Woldemar Cantor, born 1809 or 1814, is not present in the registers of the Jewish community, and that he completely without doubt was not a Jew ...")

plus:

Also efforts for a long time by the librarian Josef Fischer, one of the best experts on Jewish genealogy in Denmark, charged with identifying Jewish professors, that Georg Cantor was of Jewish descent, finished without result.

I think sources from an official genealogical institute and research from famous librarian on Danish0Jewish genealogy are slightly more reliable than a subjectively interpreted quote. 72.144.158.251 17:54, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Hm, efforts to figure out who was Jewish, in 1937 Denmark? I don't know the exact circumstances, but that seems a little suspicious on its face. Maybe someone wanted to protect Cantor's children, or set theory itself, from the looming Nazi menace? --Trovatore 06:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

It is odd if Cantor was wrong about his father, and odder that if the case is so clear-cut, it has been ignored by the Encyclopaedia Judaica. Certainly Cantor's work was attacked by the Nazis as Jewish mathematics.--Brownlee 10:08, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Was it? Is there a reference for this? Nonetheless, we can't assume that the Danish genealogical society was secretive of Cantor's Judaism. Cantor never explicitly said he was Jewish. 72.144.92.205 04:41, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I am reverting the last edit by Anon. Wikipedia policy is to report what sources say. It is quite unacceptable to delete valid sources. It is particularly important to note that one of the Jewish Chronicle refs dats from Cantor's lifetime; this shows that he was regarded as Jewish during his lifetime as well as decades later. It is original research to speculate why the Jewish Chronicle and Encyclopaedia Judaica say that Cantor was Jewish; all Wikipedia should do is record that they do.--Brownlee 13:09, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Quoting each source is superfluous as it is very well established that numerous places refer to Cantor as of Jewish descent. However, you make an excellent point about the Jewish Chronicle reference and I have since amplified that quote. Also, nobody is speculating why Jewish Chronicle, Encyclopedia Judaica, and several notable biographers state that Cantor was of Jewish descent, it is established by the very first emergence of his quote, as Cantor never said he was Jewish outside of that letter and no genealogical research has provided conclusive results. So unless the soures made it up, which we know they couldn't have, they derived it from the first interpretation of the quote. This has been detailed in the note. 72.144.198.190 09:37, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Why was the Jewish Chronicle saying it in Cantor's lifetime, before that letter was published?--Brownlee 17:57, 11 August 2006 (UTC) The letter was written in 1896, only the book we use as a reference now (correspondences with Tannery) was published in the 1930s, as probably all other copies of the letter aren't available. Plus I doubt the letter was published purely because it hinted at Cantor's Jewish ancestry but rather because it had other relevant information amongst the professors. 72.144.68.74 19:15, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Categories

Just because the Jewish Chronicle and other less-reliable quotations incorrectly and unambiguously call Cantor "Jewish" evidently without bothering to provide the details which concern not him but his father, doesn't mean we should utilize them blindly. For one thing, despite Cantor being half Danish we don't bother to categorize Cantor in Danish mathematicians (and yes, sources incorrectly call him Danish too) and appropriately so as Cantor had a dominant association with Germany all his life and none to Denmark. For precedent and comparison, we could say that Cantor's dominant association with Christianity and complete lack of mention of Judaism should suggest something similarly. Nonetheless, as its for some reason a touchy subject, the complete removal of any Christian or Jewish categories would solve the problem 72.144.136.179 04:58, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

That isn't how Wikipedia works. We apply WP:V and WP:NOR. If sources as reputable as the Jewish Chronicle and the Encyclopaedia Judaica say that someone is Jewish, we are entitled to say so in Wikipedia. Unsourced assertions that he was not should be ignored.--Newport 20:02, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
The Encyclopaedia Judaica says he was Jewish? That's definitely a reputable source. Mad Jack 20:37, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
From WP:RS quote "While reputable and reliable have considerable overlap, one is not a substitute for the other." Furthermore, Encyclopedia Judaica doesn't "SAY" anything. It, at best, makes a quote concerning Cantor and him being Jewish and the user who has access should promptly have linked or recited the quote. Simply being IN Encyclopedia Judaica is not the same as a reliable source stating "Georg Cantor is without a doubt Jewish." Isn't it true that completely non-Jewish people are in Encyclopedia Judaica too? Also "However, while reliability is to some extent fungible, peer reviewed publications make errors, professional publications vary widely in quality and have their own POVs and other sources have to be evaluated based on the particular assertion." Furthermore, all of what is stated above is explanation enough for removal of any categories referring to Cantor as "Christian" "Lutheran" "Jewish" "Danish" etc. 72.144.172.206 04:45, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Well I have no access to the Encyclopedia Judaica so I don't know. But if it says "Cantor is/was/etc. Jewish" that would seem reliable. BTW, why are we linking to a Wikipedia article called Christians in Science? If that article has a source that Cantor is Christian, then that's the source we need to use here Mad Jack 07:49, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Encyclopaedia Judaica says very explicitly that Cantor was Jewish; if you check the history of the article, you will find that Brownlee added the citation some time ago[1]. It was then deleted by the anon editor, so I fail to understand why he criticises other editors for not putting in what we did put in and he deleted. I stress that the Jewish Chronicle was explicitly calling him Jewish in his lifetime, before the publication of the cited letter. No source acceptable under WP:V has yet been produced that could disprove these explicit quotes from reliable sources.--Newport 20:00, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

It's pretty evident that I asked for the citation here in talk where it can be discussed and not superfluously on the article, where the Jewish Chronicle quotation is well more than enough. I could plaster sources stating Cantor's Christianity all over the face of the article but that would just make me WP:POINTish. Here [2] here [3] here [4]. But these only tell half the story, just like the places that call him a "Jew". We have information that tells the whole story and for some reason that is to be completely ignored. I find it unfavorable how the - apparently many - users who have access to Judaica Encyclopedia fail to be clear about what it says or whats in it. Questions that have yet to be answered for those of us who don't keep Encyclopedia Judaica in our home libraries: Is there a separate article for Georg Cantor? Does Encyclopedia Judaica only make articles for Jewish people? From what article is this quotation taken from? What further things does it say in reference to Cantor and his religion/ancestry?
Furthermore, why is it that Jewish ancestry is so much more important to list than any other ancestry? Nobody is arguing so vehemently about the other categories that could realistically be added to Cantor's article. Um Danish? Category:Danish mathematicians [5], [6] Russian? Category:Russian mathematicians [7] [8] Wasn't it once argued in List of Czech Jews that being Russian-born is the same thing as being Russian? If we want to go purely be ancestral descent as an enumerable amount of Jewish categorization does then why don't we put Cantor in Category:Austrian mathematicians? After all, that WAS his mother's nationality. More relevantly, why isn't anyone passionately vying for these categories to be added. Hell there are references hosted by "reputable" sites that say some of this information! The case is simple. We have gathered the facts from some research that he was German of a Danish-born father and Austrian-Catholic descented mother. His father's ancestry is in question. It could be that he was of Jewish ancestry. All this information is clearly stated on the article and should be left at that. What some reputable sources say may not be reliable. There's an infinite (how appropriate for Cantor) debate on Copernicus's ancestry revolving around reputable sources from both sides stating German or Polish. Appropriately no categories are allowed for one or the other as the truth is simply unknown. Equivalently the truth of Cantor's Jewish ancestry is unknown and has been speculative until now. Anyway, I stress that Jewish Chronicle published this information almost 6 years after it was written in a letter and the publishings that Newport? refers to were of Tannery's Correspondences which happens to hold the letter in question and is the only published book with the letter we have access to. Sorry to say that point is pretty much moot by now. Jewish Chronicle, to my knowledge, is one of the first newspaper. And with any such information, yellow journalism is easily on the prowl. Such places have a singular thing to report on. So if there's any possibility that by partial ancestry Cantor was Jewish, why wouldn't the Chronicle call him a "Jew?" It is their position and speciality, and any news magazine includes sensationalism to report what readers want to read. Nobody is demanding the category Category:German Lutherans and so there's no reason to do the same for Category:German Jews. Nothing's being censored by doing this. All the information is pretty clear on the article. Simply, keep Cantor away from any categories that are dubious as is done in many other articles. 72.144.198.119 06:15, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

This is absurd. Obviously, the place for a source that Cantor was Jewish is in the article, to justify the statement. Had Anon not obliterated this key reference, anyone could have seen it. In fact, it is essential to cite recent references. They prove that despite the (unsourced) claims by Anon that it was said in the 1930s that Cantor was not Jewish, reliable sources still say that he was. Anon has yet to explain how he knows better than these reliable sources. It is irrelevant whether the Encyclopaedia Judaica has an article on Cantor (it does not). It does clearly state that he was Jewish, and as Anon knows the exact citation is in the reference he deleted. I am not saying that Jewishness is more important than other ethnicity. If equally reliable sources can be produced saying explicitly that he was say Danish, this should be reported. I am saying that it violates WP:V, WP:NPOV and WP:NOR to delete material from reputable sources.--Brownlee 11:41, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I have since sourced my "unsourced" claims that Cantor was said not to be of Jewish parentage in the 1930s or rather...that any researh into the question was inconclusive. The most reputable sources are certainly Cantor's biographers and the debate over him BEING Jewish is about as never-ending as the debate on Copernicus for the simple fact that WE DON'T KNOW for sure. No, it is not irrelevant if Encyclopedia Judaica has an article or doesn't. If it had an article it could perhaps tells us all the information it gathered and give us even more references. It is sufficiently written in this article everything we know about Cantor and the possibility of his father being descended from Sephardic Jews. How this automatically turns the staunch Lutheran into a "German Jew" when he's not even listed as a "German Lutheran" is beyond me. You can argue that its because his ancestry was Jewish. His ancestry was also Austrian and possibly Dutch. Why isn't anyone pushing for those categories then? 72.144.68.140 21:13, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Categories, bis

Wikipedia policy is very clear. There are good sources that describe him as Jewish, so he should be placed in the relevant categories. If there are good sources that describe him as Chinese, then equally he should be put in category Chinese mathematicians. Any other policy would violate WP:V, WP:NOR and WP:V. Cantor is in 12 categories; many articles have far more categories.--Runcorn 21:07, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

And what with the good sources that say he wasn't? We make a category called Category:Germans who may have not been Jewish. No. Firstly, there is a overflow of sources that debate anything concerning Cantor's ancestry and label it as dubious. We ignore these? Secondly, the vast majority only refer to his parentage as Jewish and not him, and finally, when so much information is unknown, we pull a Copernicus and not attribute any such categorizations. Try pushing Category:German astronomers on the Copernicus article. 72.144.68.140 21:12, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
If there are several people explicitly described as "Germans who may have not been Jewish", maybe we should have a category for them; that is up to editors. But it is more likely that Cantor will be described as say Lutheran, in which case of course put him in category Lutheran mathematicians. There is no problem in having someone in more than one category, just as a Jew born in Germany who moved to Britain may legitimately be in category German Jews and category British Jews. Nw please, let's all abide by Wikipedia policy.--Runcorn 21:20, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
First of all, Wikipedia policy is what the community comes to a consensus about. Part of this citation consensus is the categorization of people by what THEY are and not what they would be via lineage. It's possible, and as of yet subject to debate, whether Cantor was Jewish AT ALL by descent. If he was, there's still the question of is Cantor himself Jewish or simply part of his family Jewish. Any places that call Cantor "Jewish" while others claim he never identified as such are in conflict with eachother, and we do not report both any more than we would report to separate birth dates equally. The entire question is well outlined in the article. 72.144.68.140 21:27, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Not quite the case. 3 policies are non-negotiable: WP:NOR, WP:NPOV, WP:VERIFY. You're Jewish if you have a Jewish mother - is that not so? Under WP:NPOV if there are two conflicting verifiable sources, then you do indeed report both, giving weight as appropriate if there is a majority and a minority view. Tyrenius 01:00, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Well, but the argument doesn't seem to be about the text, but about categories. It's not possible to put an article both in a category and not in the category. Also, no policy requires an article to discuss every possible aspect of its subject. Cantor's supposed Jewishness, or lack thereof, does not seem to have been a very important fact in his life, either to him or to his contemporaries. In my opinion entirely too much time has gone into discussing it.
In the text of the article, some brief mention might be appropriate, given that the question does seem to come up with some regularity. As to the categories, please everyone get off his high horse about policies, and just pick something, if necessary by a vote. --Trovatore 01:13, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree. I don't think it should be put in a category, unless it can be categorically proved. It would seem to be advisable to have something in the text. Tyrenius 02:25, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Come on, people, this is getting embarrassing.
"Did you hear there's an edit war over at Georg Cantor?"
"Oh, probably people arguing about the existence of completed infinites? Or his ongoing dispute with Kronecker?"
"No, it's religion."
"Oh, his ideas on the absolute infinite, or about mathematical objects existing in the mind of God?"
"Nope, whether he was Jewish."
This is not important enough to risk the status of this important article (good articles aren't supposed to have ongoing edit wars, I think). Please just have a vote and accept the results. --Trovatore 21:29, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
There appears to be an ongoing attempt at this pinning of Jewishness to people who, quite possibly, would be surprised themselves at this categorization. If the person is Jewish and identifies as such, thats fine. A common brand of sentence is appearing in these articles: "BlAH made many mathematical contributions to numerical science and was a huge advocate or rights for babies. Oh, by the way, his grandfather was Jewish."
We need to distinguish what is footnote material and what is important. What Thomas Edison's grandfather's nationality was not and is not important and doesn't change what his life and work meant. Clearly, Lutheranism was important to Georg Cantor and so it was mentioned briefly, and a WAY WAY TOO BIG footnote is on this page discussing the possibility of his father being Jewish, pretending it somehow matters in the long run. So, yes, I concur completely with Trovatore. Devote the article to something more useful. LaGrange 21:55, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

There appears to be an ongoing attempt to deny the Jewish ancestry of important people. According to many good sources, Cantor was Jewish or had jewish ancestry; he seems to have said as much himself. It is totally contrary to Wikipedia policy to remove references to these good sources.--Brownlee 09:33, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Remove references to these good sources? Whats going on now? This sentence is not entirely verifiable "Cantor is often described as Jewish during his life and afterwards." (or however it was put) Uhm, no he's not. Most places that say anything say his father was Jewish. And apparently there's a reference listed here from the early 20th century. He was still alive but near the end of his life, yes. But how does that one place tell us "he was often described as Jewish during his lifetime"?? Most importantly this analysis material shouldn't be on this page at all. I would be for removing the entire footnote, but if it has to be here, put all such sentences THERE. So, for example, you could put "Some places call Cantor Jewish entirely." whatever, though its plugging up the already way too big footnote. LaGrange 16:30, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Deny the Jewish ancestry? Not defining somebody by whether or not his father or mother had been brought up in a particular religion is not the same as stating that none of his ancestors were ever Jewish. I mean - would this last statement be true of anybody whatsoever, save for sixteenth-century hunter-gatherers in Australia? Bellbird 14:54, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

To be clear: the removal of Jewish categories will not effect the cataloguing of everybody noteworthy as an Aryan. Rather, it will make clear that cataloguing people by blood is something we do not do, period. (If only nobody ever did it!) Bellbird 14:57, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The ending

Considering that a plurality of mathematicians consider set theory to underpin (most of) modern mathematics, the last paragraph of the main body, in "Work" section, which begins by stating that "Cantor's work did attract favorable notice beyond" Hilbert, seems to be a vast underestimate. Without unduly glorifying Cantor, I think we need to end the section more appropriately. —vivacissamamente 20:13, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] GA Re-Review and In-line citations

Note: This article has a small number of in-line citations for an article of its size and subject content. Currently it would not pass criteria 2b.
Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. Agne 06:03, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Third opinion

The editor who has consistently refused to allow Cantor's Jewish ancestry to be recorded properly recently asked for a Wikipedia:Third opinion in another context. I asked the third opinion editor to look at this article, too. He responded on my talk page:

In the case of Georg Cantor, his Jewishness may be relevant, in which case insisting otherwise would indeed a violation of WP:NPOV. However, if there are sourced disagreements on that point (and the sources are reliable, even if obscure) then I think the disagreement deserves to be mentioned while keeping the relevant assertion in place - thereby displeasing all points of view equally. :-) -Amatulic 22:01, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I have edited in accordance with his advice. - Newport 22:40, 11 November 2006 (UTC)


[edit] More Portuguese Jewish descent?

I have removed the sentence "A minority of sources state they are not Jewish" for two reasons. First, it is untrue. No one should stack up secondary sources against tertiary ones. There is not a minority of secondary sources stating that the Cantor family is not Jewish. In fact, in addition to the primary source of Fischer and the Copenhagen Ancestry, several secondary sources, specifically one by Ivor Grattan-Guinness, write that Cantor's Jewish ancestry has been "assumed" too easily by publications, and that there is not significant evidence to state of any Jewish ancestry in generations of Cantor's antecedents. The second is because the comment is a wikipedia-user comment into a biographical article.

I also removed the categories of Jews from Cantor's article. There is no reason to assume the biographers that state Cantor isn't Jewish are more right than those that state he is. Most actually say "of Jewish ancestry" or "Jewish ancestors" which leads to the question of how far back? Would Portuguese categories be rightful too then? Amir Anczel, a proponent of some sort of Jewish theory in mathematics, identified Georg Woldemar Cantor's father's parents as Jewish by stating "Cantor and Meiers are common Jewish names," overlooking the commonality of "Meiers" in Denmark and the fact that another Danish academic shares a name "Cantor. "Which such assumptiveness, it cannot be told what it true and what is not!

I have also adjusted the comments on List of Lutherans as Jewish geenetical history is unimportant to the Lutheran religion itself. It has no effect. ----Tellerman.

The bottom line is that Cantor himself said that his grandparents, and hence his father, were Jewish. That justifies these categories. If Cantor were still alive, it would violate WP:BLP to deny his own clear statement. We should grant him the courtesy of believing him. No, the category "Portuguese" is far too remote to be applicable. Just because Amir Anczel's work may be flawed, there is no reason to overrule the other evidence.
Incidentally, why is he in the category "People with bipolar disorder"? What's the evidence? - Newport 19:44, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Good point on bipolar disorder. I actually haven't read this anywhere. I will remove the category. But why do you think he is Jewish when most historians don't even know for sure? How do you know the Portuguese is more remote than the Jewish? Cantor did not say HE was Jewish so if he was alive this wouldn't be denying him a rightful categorization. His families anti-semitic remarks actually indicate he might not even appreciate this. He said his grandparents were "Israelite" or moreso that he had Israelite grandparents. Not even professional researchers can say without hesitation this means they were Jewish. "Isrealite" refers to the religion, so are we certain they were Jewish by ethnicity? No, despite how unlikely. ----Tellerman
By the way, I found the following "This recurrent depression would probably be diagnosed as bipolar disorder today" in reference to Cantor's bipolar disorder. I think it is wrong to categorize this man as a sufferer of a disease we are only assuming he has. ----Tellerman

Tellerman: perhaps you did not read further up this page. There has just been a Wikipedia:Third opinion about these categories. Please do not flout this opinion. "Jewish mathematicians" is not a category just for practising Jews but also for people of Jewish descent. If you wish to label him as Portuguese as well, you are free to do so.--Runcorn 22:46, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

OK I have read it, but I cannot see where it says that Georg Cantor should be categorized as Jewish. From what I read "However, if there are sourced disagreements on that point (and the sources are reliable, even if obscure) then I think the disagreement deserves to be mentioned while keeping the relevant assertion in place - thereby displeasing all points of view equally. :-)" it only says the disagreement deserves to be mentioned, which it is very extensively and that all POV should be displeased equally. How does ignoring the sources that say Cantor is not Jewish and categorized him as a German Jew displease the POV that he is totally Jewish? ----Tellerman

Keeping the relevant assertion in place means keeping the categories. The other sources are not ignored; the disagreement is featured prominently.--Runcorn 23:12, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry. How does "keeping the relevant assertion in place" mean "keep the categories"? Isn't that your interpretation of what he said? "Keepung the relevant assertion in place" means not dismissing his Jewish origins or non-Jewish origins. Which is not being done. ----Tellerman

Also above the third opinion someone wrote "Well, but the argument doesn't seem to be about the text, but about categories. It's not possible to put an article both in a category and not in the category."

I agree. "Keeping the relevant assertion in place" means making mention of the theorires of his Jewish origins AND of his non-Jewish origins. That is done. But putting him into a Jewish category is breaking the truce between those who say he is Jewish and those who say he is not because we can't have him IN a Jewish category and not in one at the same time as far as I know. Can we? ----Tellerman By the same argument, you can't delete the categories because this would break the truce. Please feel free to contact User:Amatulic to discuss further.--Runcorn 23:47, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

No it wouldn't. Not being in a Jewish category doesn't mean the figure in question isn't Jewish. For example, Cantor doesn't have an "Danish" category though his father was a Dane. I'd say 90% of people of mixed ancestral distant don't have categories to represent both halves, but that doesn't mean they aren't whatever half isn't represented. Does that mean Cantor wasn't part Danish? But we are actually only talking about his family's descent. OK, I will ask Amatulic. ----Tellerman

Please wait until we have the third opinion, as agreed. Anything else would violate WP:Point. --Runcorn 12:35, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clarification

I have been away for 2 weeks and just got back, and found an email (and a message on my talk page) asking that I come here and clarify what I was quoted as saying in the third opinion section above. First, let me say that I am no authority, I'm just offering my opinion as someone who has no knowledge of the subject of this article. I honestly hadn't considered the question of categories.

Speaking personally, I have a friend whose father is American Jewish, mother was German Catholic. My friend follows a different path; he would vehemently object to being categorized as Jewish, Catholic, or German ("New Age German American" might be a better fit for him). If a biography were written about him, categorizing him as Jewish would simply be incorrect. In that sense, I am skeptical about the correctness of categorizing someone solely by his parentage. Would Cantor himself mind being categorized as Jewish? How much does a person's heritage have to be mixed before a category no longer applies?

If the Jewishness of Cantor is uncertain or in dispute, then I would err on the side of leaving him out of the Jewish category. Leaving him out doesn't deny his Jewishness if it exists. Perhaps a new category might be in order, of people with Jewish ancestry, who may or may not be Jewish themselves? -Amatulic 21:18, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

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