Talk:Geordie

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Contents 1 Newcastle is not Geordie 2 County Durham 3 Yackerty yack 4 Uniqueness 5 List of "Geordies" 6 Get your facts right... 7 Disambiguation 8 Geordie in the media 9 Category: Wikipedians in Tyne and Wear 10 Disambiguation 11 American Accent ?? 12 Canny

[edit] Newcastle is not Geordie

Newcastle is not Geordie The accent isn't even similar. Go to shields and find out for yourself.

The Newcastle accent is Geordie. Everyone uses the usage of Newcastle being Geordie. Shields accent is similar, but certainly different. Newcastle = Geordie, (South) Shields = Sand dancers. Grinner 09:18, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC)

The accent comes from the dockyard workers. These are in shields. Particularly given that this is a cheaper area, i.e. somewhere where dockyard workers can afford to live, unlike newcastle.

Note how strong the accent is in shields, particularly towards the north east of the town, an area where it in parts becomes indecipherable. If the accent was from newcastle, then simple liguistic rules imply that the strongest accents should be found there, which is not the case at all, indeed the newcastle accent is significantly refined, and the use of dialectual words is rare, indicating that it is not the seat of the said dialect.

Shields has a disctinctive accent, I agree. But the fact is that Geordie is used primarily to refer to a person from Newcastle specifically, and Tyneside more generally. You can't escape that fact. If anything I would tend to regard Shields as being "borderland" between Geordie and Mackem - it certainly isn't the heartland of Geordieland.

Anyway, the west end of Newcastle has plenty of people who use a very broad accent, don't judge the Toon by Jesmond.Grinner 14:26, Sep 11, 2004 (UTC)

I removed this, as was unclear what the author means: '... both due to their wanting to seem unique and the fact that many of them are supporters of the rival football club Sunderland'

People who fulfil the criteria for being a true Geordie, but support Sunderland FC must be a very small minority, right? AndrewMcQ 21:01, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Not necessarily. I'm Tyneside born and bred but have always followed Sunderland as have my whole family for generations. The Geordie = can only be a NUFC fan claim is very recent and provably false.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.43.227.18 (talk • contribs) 06:28, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

The correct definition of geordie historically is not someone from Newcastle but someone from the coal mining areas around the city with Geordie being derived from the George Stevenson lamp. True in modern times geordie has took on a new meaning of centering in Newcastle but this is not the correct definition. On SAFC- Most Sunderland fans are geordies. Sunderland is traditionally part of Co.Durham (where the geordies come from) and so more geordie then Newcastle even. 'Mackem' is just a subset of geordie. Football confuses all of these definitions of course with geordie taking on this meaning of being a Newcastle supporter however this is deeply unfair. --Josquius 18:10, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

I added South Shields to this becasue I have have found, as a native of that lovely towm, that I have often been accuses of sounding 'more Geordie than the Geordies'! I fully acept the comments about those from the North-East of the town though. my grans refers to themn as 'SkYet Enders', can anyone elaborate? I believe this come from the Tyne Pilotage situated at the Habroub Lights, where the hereditary pilots famously could not navigate on dyr land beyond the GPO!

Every one of the descriptions under Vocabulary applies to the accent I grew up speaking, but I grew up in south west Durham while my parents (who undoubtedly influenced my accent) are from Blyth, neither of which are remotely Tyneside, or north Durham pit villages, though both are old mining areas. You could make the argument the accent in both is Pitmatic, but it's not a label I grew up hearing. The Geordie article needs to serve as both a description of Geordie as specifically meant by people in the North East and as the core article about North Eastern accents in general, because that's the name people from outside the area will search for. The discussion under Geographical coverage should really be expanded to link to the Pitmatic and Northumbrian entries so that all of the named North Eastern accents are referenced.

This is complete shit, geordie is most strong in the BIKER area of newcastle people in shields havnt even got half an accent, my girlfriend is from there and all her friends :| they dont come close to geordie.

You mean "Byker"? Mikesc86 01:08, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] County Durham

I was born and raised in County Durham. I do not speak 'Geordie'. The people of County Durham and Darlington speak in a sufficiently different manner that they be excluded from the generalisation, "Geordie refers to a person originating from Tyneside and the former coal mining areas of northern County Durham". 80.229.14.246 12:53, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

How would you describe your accent? Or the accent generally used in your area? Is there a common term, or would you just say County Durham accent? Pitmatic? Let us know, it might help us to get the definition right... AndrewMcQ 18:51, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think the definition here has been made difficult by the creation of Tyne & Wear County, because (obviously) the south side of the Tyne was County Durham prior to 1974, and the redistricting then did not create a new accent border, so bits of Durham outside Tyne and Wear are still culturally Geordie areas. However, we might want to say "adjacent/reighbouring/nearby former coalmining areas" to make it clearer that proximity to the Tyne is what counts. ProhibitOnions 10:47, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

But if you want to divide accents based on perceptible differences then where do you stop? There's a recognisable difference in accent between someone from (for example) Bishop Auckland and someone from West Auckland, but one runs into the other. Yes, there is a perceptible difference between Geordie as spoken by someone from Newcastle and someone from County Durham, but to anyone born outside of Durham and Northumberland both accents are 'Geordie' because they can't tell the difference. The article needs to cater for both sets of readers. You can call Newcastle Geordie the core of the accent, but most of the rest of Durham and Northumberland speaks a recognisable variation.

No, the County Durham accent is very different. I moved to the south of the country and nobody has confused my South West Durham accent with that of a Geordie. Also, please sign your talk contributions. Mikesc86 19:28, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm from Derwentside and people always confuse my accent with geordie. There are a few weird islands in County Durham where people speak 'posh' and in the south of the county its more akin to yorkshire but these days most of it is one. Sure Durham is technically called Pitmatic but hardly anyone has heard of that word, its all said to be geordie. The issue is confused due to football however- Newcastle fans exagerate being geordie whilst Sunderland fans will tend to make up reasons why Durham isn't geordie. I am a sunderland fan but...In the grand scheme yes Durham is another kind of geordie--Josquius 20:33, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm from Jarrow (well it was in Co Durham when I was born!) and can tell some subtle differences between the local accent and those from Newcastle and South Shields. I'd be hard pressed to list them, though, and I wouldn't say they were anywhere near enough to differentiate it as a distinct accent in its own right. Anyway, if the accent (or people) from Jarrow aren't Geordie, I'd be curious to know what they are described as (well, in terms suitable for polite company, at least!)

-- Chris (blather • contribs) 21:57, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

• My mam and her siblings were all Co. Durham raised. They always talked about themselves as speaking Geordie. I never once heard them talk about speaking 'Pitmatic', although my mam did tell me that that was their local dialect. My granddad scalded me for my Kiwi accent once in visiting and told me to 'speak Geordie' so that he could understand me. A Geordie might be from the Shields or Newcastle or wherever, but c'mon, the north east speaks Geordie, the language, albeit with regional variants. Enzedbrit 23:59, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yackerty yack

I have never heard the expression "farm yacker" before but "pit yacker" is a very common term for the inhabitants of South-East Northumberland especially the former mining communities around Ashington. More recently I've heard the term used (once) to describe someone from the Durham mining communities. Now I've never heard that before and have no back-up on how common that is however there was a large migration from Durham pits to Northumberland pits not long back and you can see this in the similarities in accent (e.g. wesh me clays for wash my clothes) and the number of Sunderland supporters from that area so its possible the name travelled and is equally applicable

As for "farm yacker" even though I haven't heard the impression the two terms give of farms and pits and nothing else has the ring of truth about it.

Feel free to slap me down.

To the best of my knowledge 'farm yakker' i.e. farm worker refers to people from the North Riding of Yorkshire which is not part of the North East but does border it.GordyB 13:40, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Uniqueness

I noticed a contradiction in the article. For example "The accent and pronunciation, like in Lowland Scots, reflect old Anglo-Saxon pronunciations, accents and usages." which is correct but then "Geordie also has a large amount of vocabulary not seen in other English dialects. Words still in common use today include "canny" for "pleasant", "gadgie" for "man", "hyem" for "home", "divn't" for "don't", "bairn" and "grandbairn" for "child" and "grandchild", "tab" for "cigarette" (c.f. tobacco), "hacky" for "dirty", and "gannin" for "going". " The second quoted section is incorrect about these words not being found elsewhere (reason being the first quoted section :) ) so for example Scottish English and Scots, which like Northern English also developed from the Northumbrian variety of Anglo Saxon, have "canny", "hame (for hyem)" "bairn" and "gang (for gannin)". --Nantonos 19:55, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps this could changed to something along the lines of 'not heard elsewhere in England', rather than 'in other English dialects', which can also refer to Scots dialects? AndrewMcQ 12:08, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

I have attempted to separate some of the words which are not derived from Old English: gadgie is Roma, hyem is from Old Norse (compare modern Swedish hjem) and "tab" is derived from Ogden's Tabs, a long disappeared brand of cigarettes. Rugxulo 22:54, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] List of "Geordies"

What about Jonny Kennedy, the fellow who had dystrophic epidermolysis bullosa? A review I read of "The Boy Whose Skin Fell Off," a documentary shown on Channel 4 in England and the TLC cable network in the USA, says he's a Geordie, which probably explains why he sounded like a Scot to my (untrained) ear. --MitchS 23:33, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Sting is from County Durham. Ridley Scott is from South Shields. Catherine Cookson is from South Tyneside (now known to the local tourist board as "Catherine Cookson Country"). Therefore, none are Geordies under the criteria applied in the article. I have not removed the names pending discussion. If the list is to include those commonly described as Geordies but not actually from Newcastle upon Tyne/North Tyneside, then many other names could be added including Paul Gascoigne (Gateshead), Ross Noble (Cramlington), and Rowan Atkinson (Northumberland). Maybe this would be for the best as it is a bit feeble looking at the moment. Terwilliger 22:04, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Sting is from Wallsend, well known fact. He used to live in Station Road, Wallsend near to where the metro station is now in place.--Geordiejon 11:29, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

The article defines the term as "Geordie refers to a person originating from Tyneside and the former coal mining areas of northern County Durham or the dialect spoken by such people." This embraces all the people on the list so far. Note: Tyneside and Durham, not just Newcastle.

Sting is from Wallsend; read his autobiography, he is very much a Geordie. Catherine Cookson was a Geordie as well, as she was from South Shields, which is Geordie territory even if they usually pronounce their O's differently; likewise the Scotts.

I started the list with the hope that others would add to it, and began only with people who I could recall speaking in a Geordie accent (Brian Johnson, Sting in Stormy Moday), though obviously we could make a set of criteria for inclusion if we wanted to.

Part of the problem, as you mention is the definition of Geordie, which has been made slightly more difficult in recent years by the coining of the term Mackem, for which no documented use exists before 1991, and the increasing use (or coining or reintroduction; no one seems to be clear about this) of the term Sanddancer. While Mackems generally consider themselves separate from Geordies (though some parts, notably Washington, are a bit divided), Sanddancers are Geordies. Note, for example, the recent BT ads about how many "Geordie households have returned to BT"; these can be seen throughought North and South Tyneside. (Full disclosure: I'm half-Washington, half-South Shields, and grew up in Newcastle.) ProhibitOnions 10:41, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

It is surprising that there is no documented use of the word Mackem before 1991. I remember a friend of mine from Wearside using it quite a lot in 1989, and it was definitely a widely used term then. Does anyone from that area remember using the word before 1991? (Gp100mk 13:56, 26 January 2006 (UTC))

Look at the article Mackem, the OED has recently come across an earlier example, from 1988, although in a context that suggests the term was, indeed, relatively new. ProhibitOnions 15:43, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Sunderland fans at the old Fulwell End used to chant Mackems/Geordies depending on which area of the N-E you came from from at least the early 1980's.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.43.227.18 (talk • contribs) 06:30, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Have to say this is a tricky one, which is why I've stuck to just overseeing the similar list of "people from Newcastle Upon Tyne". At least that's geographically defined! As an example, Steve Cram is a Gateshead lad, so therefore a Geordie... only he supports the mackems, so he's renounced his Geordiehood in my book. If you asked him yourself, I don't think he'd class himself as a Geordie due to the aforementioned Geordie/mackem divide. (FYI - mother Scots, dad Welsh (but brought up in Glasgow), me born in Gateshead and now resident in Bradford!) IainP (talk) 12:11, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Why would supporting Sunderland mean you are no longer a Geordie? TI'm a Tyneside lad, but have always supported SAFC. I am not a Mackem, thats a Wearsider. What about NUFC fans who are from Sunderland (they do exist) are they Geordies or Mackems? Personally, football has nothing to do with it for me.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.43.227.18 (talk • contribs) 06:36, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Have a look at, say, Boston accent, where there's a section called "Well Known Speakers of Boston Accent" — perhaps this would be a better idea, focusing on those with obvious Geordie accents (and possibly pointing out some of the subvariants). The intro to the article should be rewritten to emphasize that Geordie is an accent, not just a kind of person; not all Geordies speak in Geordie, or at least not all the time. That would help users who are trying to identify Geordie speech, while your list of famous Novocastrians would focus on regional origin. (You might want to make lists of other parts of Tyneside as well, or add them to the Newcastle list under a subheading.) ProhibitOnions 13:29, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Get your facts right...

At the end of the article there is a line mentioning the fair that takes place on the town moor in newcastle, for a start it's name is the 'hoppings' not 'hoppin's' also, and more importantly, this fair, and all other fairs around the country have nothing to do what so ever with gypsie's, the term you are looking for is showmen or show people, refering to them as gypsie's in their presence will land you in bother, although some show family's are of romany desent, they are most certainly not classed as gypsie's and these people tend to get very annoyed (and rightly so) when they are refered to as gypsie's. This is all down to the public's perception of people owning a caravan they are automaticly gypsie's and seen more or less as scum for want of a better word. I suggest this article is altered, maybe the author could do some research into the subject of the English fairground before going ahead and assuming things, this way he/she wont be having bother from people like the showmans guild of Great Britain and the the fairground society of Great Britain etc.

By all means if you find the wording inappropriate or offensive - change it! The joy of Wiki. I would tend to agree with your points above, though you've picked the correct path by using discussion first. I also think the "Hoppins" name doesn't quite sound right. I'm assuming the original author either mis-typed it, or is trying to emphasise the pronunciation, in which casee there should be an apostrophe. Anyway, I'll go ahead and alter it as you've mentioned. IainP (talk) 12:06, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Disambiguation

As someone has just added to the page, Geordie is also a 70's rock band for which a (stub) article exists. Is a disambiguation page called for? IainP (talk) 12:14, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Geordie in the media

I've got some mp3s I "aquired" via the BBC Listen Again facility a couple of months ago. They're of a 2-part look at Geordie comedy and comedians (the name of the program escapes me right now). I'll have a re-listen when I get the time and see if there's anything else from there that can be put in the article. IainP (talk) 15:01, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Category: Wikipedians in Tyne and Wear

Thought I'd mention this - there's a category, [[Category: Wikipedians in Tyne and Wear]], and so far I'm the only one in it. This can't be right (I live in Berlin as it is), so Geordies and Mackems, please add yourself to it. ProhibitOnions 23:35, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disambiguation

Just so you know there is now a disambiguation page, although its pretty basic. Jive Monk 09:51, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] American Accent ??

Here is the magic question. What British accent most resembles General American accent? By General American accent it is meant the kind used by most newscasters in America. It is sometimes called "accentless" or "midwestern" because it is neither southern or extreme northern. I could not find the answer to this question. Someone told me that Geordie is the closest accent to general American...but I have my doubts. Any ideas? Thanks.

No British accent very closely resembles an American one, they are almsot entirely different. If pushed I'd say that people from Northern Ireland are the closest and people from the East of England have some similarities e.g. my mother pronounces 'garage' the same way as Americans do. A lot of the earlier settlers of America were from Essex and East Anglia or from Ireland (particularly Ulster). Geordie does not remotely sound like American, an American would have no chance whatsoever of understanding a broad Geordie accent.GordyB 13:46, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

True enough; I'd say that a fair number of Brits would also have trouble with a broad Geordie accent. But if the main difference between standard AmE and standard BE is that the former is a rhotic accent (ie, the letter R is pronounced at the end of words and elsewhere) and the latter is not, it should be pointed out that there are plenty of rhotic accents in Britain, particularly from southwestern England (listen to someone from Bristol speak) while there are also non-rhotic ones in North America (parts of Massachussetts and New England; eastern Canada, bits of the South). Geordie is pretty much non-rhotic (i.e., more "British"-sounding) although its pronunciation is obviously quite different, and its terminal vowels ("fatha") involve more than just dropping the r.  ProhibitOnions  ^(T) 09:45, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Canny

I've reverted an edit which (amongst other things) suggested that canny was also used in the "sly" or "knowing" sense. I thought I'd better check here since I haven't lived in the area for a while, but I don't recall ever hearing it used in that context; though I do recall some people being unhappy that its appearance in TV programmes etc invariably followed the Scottish meaning rather than the local one. Additionally, I don't think canny (cannae?) as "cannot" is used frequently enough in the region to get a mention, but someone more adept at dialects may wish to have the final say here.
-- Chris (blather • contribs) 07:28, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

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