Talk:Geisha

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  • Useless information must be parsed and more relevant facts added.
  • More pictures needed; there is not a single picture of a real maiko. Also, each training stage could use an image.

Contents

[edit] Sorry Guys

Sorry guys, i challenge the impartiality of this page.

See

http://joi.ito.com/archives/2003/04/28/are_geisha_prostitutes.html

ALso, Arthur Golden, the guy who wrote 'Memoirs of a Giesha' said in an interview:

For example, all apprentice geisha go through something they call mizuage, which we might call, "deflowering." It amounts to the sale of their virginity to the highest bidder. Back in the '30s and '40s, girls went through it as young as thirteen or fourteen--certainly no later than eighteen. It's misleading not to call this prostitution, even child prostitution. So we can't say that geisha aren't prostitutes. http://www.randomhouse.com/vintage/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780307275165&view=qa

The San Francisco Chronicle ran an interesting article which also supports the view: The thinking goes that there used to be legalized prostitution in Japan, and that geisha were paid to entertain men, so therefore geisha were prostitutes http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/06/20/PKGBF74BU61.DTL

Giesha sell there virginity, that makes them prostitutes, albiet high class, cultured, expensive, educated ones.

[edit] Not Prostitutes

Regarding "Sorry guys.."

The sources you cite are of questionable authority. Try reading Liza Dalby's geisha. She was probably the only westerner to penetrate deeply into their secretive world and examine their customs from the inside. Dalby is one of the most reliable sources of information on Geisha. Make sure you check the backgrounds of your sources. The geisha world is not well understood by outsiders, and people who jump to summary conclusions and round-off complex issues based on misinformation are doing a disservice to those genuinely interested in the subject.

First of all, young maiko are no longer called upon to part with their virginity in accordance the custom called mizuage. That custom that is now obsolete. Second, it takes more than an obscure, once in a lifetime event to brand a person a prostitute by trade, which is misleading. Third, Geisha don't earn their living by getting paid for sex. Finally, citing Arthur Golden as an authority on geisha is like citing George Lucas as an authority on space travel. Golden is a romantic novelist who was was sued by his own source of information, a geisha named Mineko Iwasaki, for misrepresentations.

In most Asian cultures, people who sold themselves (whether it be talent or sex) was still considered a prostitute and a disgrace to their family. Read my contribution under section "Geishas and Prostitution".

Dalby is certainly a credible source, but her account is no where near complete. If one considers the role of hot springs resort geisha, the line between prostitution and geisha is perilously thin. I reference G.G. Rowley, translator of Sayo Masuda's memoirs on this subject:
The romanticiziation of geisha life as dedicated principally to the pursuit of traditional arts ignores the poverty that drove many parents to indenture their daughters ot geisha houses. Such romanticization also erases certain geisha from the collective memory and overlooks the bottom line of the whole geisha business. The geisha thus erased are hot-springs-resort-geisha, and the bottom line of the geisha business is, of course, sex for money. At the glamorous high end of the geisha world, in the Pontocho and Gion districts of Kyoto and Shinbashi in Tokyo, sex may seem a less obtrusive aspect of the geisha business. But at the lower end, in a hot-springs resort like Suwa where Masuda worked, sex with geisha was the expected end of every evening.
One of Masuda Sayo's aims in writing her autobiography was to describe this bottom line.
Here, in no uncertain terms Rowley makes the claim that underlying all forms of the geisha profession was sex, and sex for money at that. There may have been ritualized considerations to the matter, but at core, it would be difficult to deny that, historically, the profession is at base prostitution.24.124.14.65 01:03, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
I read several novel on geisha, written by Japanese writers, and in all of them, the geisha do have sex with their client. For example, memories of Geisha from Y. Inoue. I understand that as a fiction, this is not a reference, but I find the whole thing "geisha do not have sex with customers in exchange of money" quite dubious. 220.41.100.37 13:53, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


I wouldn't trust Golden as a source for anything.

[edit] male geisha

I reverted some (to my knowledge) nonsense about the first geisha being male: however, the contributor seems to have made good edits elsewhere, so I thought I'd mention the deletion here. Can anyone provide any evidence for this remarkable assertion? -- Karada 10:50, 22 Oct 2003 (UTC)


Oh, look, Google is your friend.

OK, back it goes. -- Karada 10:54, 22 Oct 2003 (UTC)

question about the picture: are these women "dressed as" geisha (actually, more correctly, as maiko) or are they actual maiko? An important distinction. Exploding Boy 12:13, May 22, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] link cycle

The term "mizuage" in the article redirects back to this article. I am removing the reference to eliminate a link cycle. Matthew Plough 04:55, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Not prostitutes

Not wanting to be too salacious here. I'm sure I have the traditional, Western idea of what a geisha is. I wouldn't be surprised that it is wrong. :-)

The article says "Geisha are not prostitutes." So, was there no sexual activity between a geisha and a customer? Or, was sex not an expected part of the transaction, but it often happened? Or, .... (I'm too embarrassed to list out all the variations, gradations, and permutations that come to mind.)

Also, I don't quite understand this sentence:

Although in the past the right to take their virginity (an event called a mizuage) was sold, they were not obliged to have sex with any customers, even the men who paid dearly for their virginity.

Somebody paid for the right, but then there was no obligation? Perhaps these might not the usual Western meanings of those words?

DanielVonEhren 00:14, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

"Real" geisha (that is, not "hotsprings geisha," who were/are prostitutes) were/are not prostitutes, at least not in the traditional sense of the word. They did often have danna, that is lovers/benefactors with whom they had sexual relationships--often longterm--and who paid many of their expenses, however. Exploding Boy 19:31, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)

That's kind of what I expected. Perhaps you should try to incorporate your knowledge into the article. (I'd do it, but I have have any knowledge.) Something like that although many geisha did have liasons with their customers, they were not prostitutes in the common Western sex-for-money sense of the word. I would think that words along that line would better fit the Wikipedia's spirit of a NPOV. It might even help explain the right and obligation thing that is still seems contradictory.

DanielVonEhren 22:11, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Can somebody provide a source for the mizuage/danna/sex thing? I know this comes from Arthur Golden's "Memoirs of a Geisha", but that's fiction. Mineko Iwasaki strongly contradicts it in her book "Geisha of Gion". Vashti 13:51, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Given the lack of a source and Iwasaki's statement that no one's virginity was ever auctioned off in Gion, I have removed the references to mizuage from the article. CKarnstein 02:08, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
I can recommend Sayo Masuda's "Autobiography of a Geisha" (translated by G.G. Rowley), describing the (now former) hotsprings geisha. This book does describe how the system with danna, selling the geisha's mizuage (even multiple times!) etc. worked in prewar Japan. The way I read it, the hotsprings geisha were also expected to engage in sex with their customers, and could risk some kind of corporal punishment if they didn't. 80.196.148.217 20:20, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Liza Crihfield Dalby is another confirmation source for the outdated [i]mizuage[/i] ceremony. When she was living and working among the geisha of the Pontocho district (the primary rival district of Gion) in the mid 1970s, she was told about [i]mizuage[/i] by several older geisha and longterm clients. Even at the time, she was told it was an old-fashioned ceremony which was no longer pursued. She discusses the stories in her thesis, which was later published as the book [b]Geisha[/b]. The book was re-issued in 1998. As far as I am aware, [i]mizuage[/i] was never much of a "controversial" subject nor so hotly denied until Mineko -- understandably angry at what she perceived as a betrayal of trust by Arthur Golden -- made her claims that he made it up. Very clearly, he did *not* invent it for his novel.

I removed the following part of a sentence "Geishas are not prostitutes... the only exception would be the Geisha from mainland China." That statement is extremely POV and a common Japanese stereotype against non-Japanese Asians, and is also levelled against Korean geisha as well. It is not factual, and should not be considered for putting back into the article unless someone can provide proof and links and there has been a discussion on this talk page. --154.20.68.142 06:38, 5 December 2005 (UTC)


~/~/~/~/~/~/ Mizuage is a really controversial issue. Most of what I've read says that mizuage is when a geisha offers her virginity to the highest bidder. This and when they have a danna (basically a geisha's boyfriend except they pay for her expenses) are the only times that geisha have any sexual relations. The man who wins her mizuage doesn't have any obligation to become her danna or anything like that. But Iwasaki (author of geisha of gion) says that its a misconception and mizuage isn't too different from a sweet 16. The geisha changes her hair and her clothes and it's just another stage in the artist's life.


I found the direct quote from Iwasaki. I think she makes it pretty clear that mizuage does not involve virginity for a geisha. :"Q: Talk to me about the mizuage ceremony. What is it, and why is there so much confusion about it?
A: This again goes back to the separation between the pleasure quarter and the entertainment quarter. Mizuage is really a coming-of-age ceremony, and apparently there was some selling of the virginity that went on in association with that ritual ceremony in the pleasure district a long time ago. However, that has never been true for the geisha. For the geisha, it was simply when they were becoming a young woman, similar to a sweet 16 in the West, and it was symbolized by the change in hairstyle, into a more womanly, grown-up hairstyle. And also certain subtle changes in the ensembles. There are a lot of rites of passage, but for some reason this one has been really latched on by people, and maybe it’s because of this misunderstanding.
Also, it is true that as with many of the rituals and rites of passage, once one has become a maiko [geisha-in-training], or a geiko, it’s very expensive, because every time you go through an entire change of kimono, for example, or of hairstyle and you need different hair ornaments, these are expensive things. For me, I was the successor to the house, the atotori, so there was no question that the money was there to provide this. But if someone is coming from the outside and training, as basically someone who is there under contract, it is expensive, and sometimes they do ask their patrons to help pay for the cost involved in making the transition.
Q: But their virginity isn’t offered in exchange for that help?
A: That is never on the table. There is one other potential source of confusion, and that is with the word "mizuage" itself. In the Gion, the geisha district, and in many areas of the entertainment industry, "mizuage" is also a term that directly means "gross earnings," because it’s an old fishing term; as you may know, Japan was dependent on fishing for one of its main economic bases for many years. "Mizuage" means "to take out of the water." It stood for the catch. "What was your catch?" — "How much money did you make from the water?" So when I refer to mizuage, I’m actually referring to my earnings, rather than the ceremony itself."
It is from an interview of Iwasaki by Tamara Weider in the Boston Phoenix, the url for it is http://www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/news_features/qa/documents/02473409.htm. I'm suprised nobody mentioned it before, it is one of the first Google results for "mizuage." puppies_fly 22:18, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

--- I like this interview; I'd like to point out a few things that the interview might leave glossed over. NB: I'm a total Japan idiot, a few years of language learning, and that's it. Take my thoughts as just musings, please.

The world of the geisha is a world in which men fund women to act/perform/be artistic on their behalf. Because these men are wealthy enough to do such things, it's a world typically full of rich older men, and desirable working women. The point Iwasaki delicately puts forward is that the coming of age is expensive. For a girl who is already eating off her entertainment talents, (or, to put it another way, thinking about covering the expenses of her profession) there surely must be a number of complexities to navigate around an expensive coming of age party, especially if she has a benefactor, as discussed below.

I'd imagine many maiko-turning-to-geisha have had sex with a wealthy benefactor after their coming-of-age party, even since prostitution itself was outlawed in the 1950s (if the below comment is correct). I think it may help us to remember that Japan's culture of gratitude/indebtedness is sufficiently different than the Western one that it must be very hard to explain to outsiders what chain of events leads to a deflowering, or sex with a customer who frequently pays for conversation and music. It's not clear to me that a tiny, super-exclusive social circle of an extremely exclusive, super-secretive society would be interested in explaining it all to interested gaijin at any rate.

Perhaps we could all agree to say that Geisha are prostitutes to the same degree that young Hollywood actresses are? I would think the parallels (aside from the education requirements) are pretty strong; people vary, sex will help a career except when it doesn't, a rich producer boyfriend brings many benefits and responsibilities.

The yujo link below goes to a web page which also contains a helpful thought: the author of the linked-to blog article suggests that geisha are not about prostitution, but they are cultural holdovers from a time of polygamy. I think that this could provide a helpful lens for the discussion as well.

Vessenes 04:40, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] add a section on western misconceptions?

I think we should add a section on western misconceptions. Item #1, Geisha aren't prostitutes; yûjo are prostitutes. Item #2, Ge - i - sha not gissha. Any other ideas for the section? --Carl 13:42, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Geishas are still prostitutes in Asian cultures because they sold themselves (even if it was usually talent, not sex). Compared to western-style prostitutes, however, they seem nothing of the sort.

[edit] First Giesha was not male...

The first Giesha was Izumo No Okuni, a woman.

  • Nope. Izumo no Okuni was part of the kawaramono, or riverbed people. She and her troupe pioneered the kabuki dance style and preformed in dry riverbeds until they were shut down by the shogunate. She *inspired* the first geisha (she predated them), but Izumo no Okuni was never one of them. - Sofia ( http://www.sofieloafy.net/geishamain.htm )

[edit] Photo

First of all, the photo for this article should show geisha, not maiko. And they don't look like real maiko either. They are likely tourists who underwent a maiko makeover. Can the photographer confirm that they are real? Real maiko would know how to pose well while dressed in kimono. They do not pose like that, with the sleeves ruffled, umbrella held unaesthetically, etc.

I don't see why. A maiko is a type of geisha, after all. These maiko look authentic enough to me; if they don't look practiced enough to you maybe they're just new. Exploding Boy 22:17, May 8, 2005 (UTC)

No, they are not authentic. Confirmed by this page: http://www.flickr.com/photos/russellc/13168902/ Photojpn.org 15:11, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Not sufficient confirmation for me. The person isn't an expert, obviously has no inside information, and doesn't speak Japanese by the looks of it. Either way, it's still basically irrelevant. Exploding Boy 20:03, May 16, 2005 (UTC)

OK, if you like this picture so much, I won't replace it. Photojpn.org 10:33, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Hey, it's not that I'm in love with the photo... Please, feel free to add more pics and/or replace it with a better one. Exploding Boy

Why replace it if they look "authentic enough" to you, you still think they are real (I don't care to spend more time to try and convince you that they are not real), and "it's basically irrelevant?" I was all but ready to replace it and add more images (selected from among my hundreds of geisha images), but your reaction has really irked me. "Geisha" has been crossed off my list of "Wiki images to be replaced." Someone else can do it. Photojpn.org 03:35, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Look, I thought we were having a discussion. Perhaps, if you were considering adding images from your collection, you should have said so rather than pussyfooting around and then throwing a hissy fit when you didn't get the response you wanted. If you have an interest in Wikipedia and this topic, I don't know why you'd want them to suffer because you have an issue with me. Exploding Boy 19:03, May 25, 2005 (UTC)

Read my notes again please. What you call "pussyfooting" was consensus-building. You yourself said this thing is run by consensus (which was not reached). All your responses were negative. Very ironic since you were the first to ask the same question right on this page. Throwing a hissy fit? Not me. Photojpn.org 02:21, 28 May 2005 (UTC)


There is plenty of pictures of Geisha, and Maiko's on immotalgeisha.com Ask the webmaster, I think she will be more then happy. BTW, the colours for that season (looks like early summer in the back also, the make up is wrong, their whole lip is drawn in. ><) are wrong on the picture before so, yes they are not real Maikos.

Another thing on the photo bit. Why is it so far down the page? Seems there should be a nice photo right up at the top. If possible, it would be great to have a contrasting photo of a geisha and a maiko as well, to see the different styles. MightyAtom 04:26, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Meaning of "geisha"

I think we need some consensus about this before it gets out of hand. I think we can agree that "artisan" is plain wrong, and that "artist" isn't the best translation. If we are going to say "literally," then "art person" is the most correct. If we're giving a literal translation, it doesn't have to be pretty in English. Exploding Boy 22:01, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

I don't see why "artist" isn't a good translation. A person who performs art = artist. But if I get no support for this claim, I suggest "person of the arts". A little long, but more elegant English. -Himasaram 09:59, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Butting in. There's a Indian English usage, seen in credits for Bollywood films. Artiste. Actors and singers and dancers are artistes. Wouldn't that describe a geisha? Zora 10:08, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"Artiste" sound affected and pretentious. Once again, if we're giving a direct translation of the kanji it doesn't have to sound "elegant," and "art person" is the most correct. Exploding Boy 20:07, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)

I must disagree. Giving a direct translation of the collection of kanji that make up Japanese words is not how you translate them. A word is a word, even in Japanese. Finally, I don't see why we shouldn't at least try to get an English translation that sound "elegant"?? That doesn't make sense. -Himasaram 21:30, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

When you use the term "literally," then you should be giving a literal translation. The actual translation for 芸者 is geisha. It is not "artist" (which would be アーティスト, 画家, or something similar), and it's certainly not "artiste." Exploding Boy 23:31, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)

The blind leading the blind again. Exploding Boy is someone who answers questions even if he does not really know the answer. (See my exchange with him above where he tries to answer my question which he himself asked before.) In English, when people hear the word "art," most think of the visual arts like paintings, drawings, sculpture, photography, etc. In Japanese, when people hear the word "gei," they think of the performing arts like singing, dancing, acting, etc. Most of the kanji compounds using "gei" refer to these performing arts, such as geinojin (entertainers), daidogei (street performance), etc. Therefore, "art person" is not good, and "person of the arts" (should be "performing arts," but that might be going too far) is better. Photojpn.org 08:20, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)\\
To begin with, someone needs to take a look at Wikipedia: No personal attacks. I really have no clue what you're trying to say, Photojpn. Did you even read my post before you responded? You seem to be agreeing with me while simultaneously insulting me. What, pray tell, is the big difference between "art person" (the most literal translation) and "person of the arts" (which, by the way, is not strictly accurate)? Exploding Boy 17:28, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
Right, no personal attacks. That's what I thought too until you accused me of pussyfooting and throwing a hissy fit (see above). (From a Wikipedia Admin no less. An anonymous one at that.) But that didn't bother me as much as the questionable quality of your replies. What exactly are your qualifications and expertise to answer questions about geisha? And no, I don't agree with your "art person" proposal. "Art person" is almost the same as "artist" which you (and I) don't like. "The arts" implies multiple talents (which geisha have) and has a broader connotation (read: performing arts) than just "art." That's why I say that "person of the arts" is better than "art person," but it's not necessarily perfect. But if you change it to "person of the performing arts," I would not object. Photojpn.org 18:29, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I might ask you the same question, but I won't bother. I will, however, point out that we are all anonymous here. Revealing personal details is not a prerequisite for participating in Wikipedia, even as an admin. At any rate, you, like Himasaram, are repeatedly missing the point. Exploding Boy 20:02, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

Another false answer. No, we are not all anonymous. Some of us identify ourselves on our personal pages. You can easily find out who I am if you click on my username at the end of this message. In the same way, you can easily tell us your real name, location, credentials (if any), and qualifications (if any) on your personal page. If you don't do this, how can we take you seriously? I am demonstrating to you and whoever else is reading this, the inherent shortcomings of Wikipedia which seriously affects its long-term credibility. You are the one missing the point. Photojpn.org 20:19, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

We're moving way off topic here. The fact that you provide information about yourself on your user page means absolutely nothing. It could all very easily be untrue. We are all anonymous on Wikipedia, and despite your opinions on the subject, and no matter how much you wish it were different, that's the way it is. You may consider it a flaw, but there you are. And by the way, I've looked at your user page and frankly, nothing I saw there convinces me you in any way have special "credentials" or "qalifications" to discuss this or any other topic. Exploding Boy 20:29, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC) --> added: Let me make it clear that I'm not saying you shouldn't be editing Wikipedia, just pointing out that the information you provide says nothing about your supposed qualifications (and even if it did that wouldn't give you exclusive right to edit articles). Exploding Boy 20:33, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

You at least know my name, where I'm located, what I specialize in. Many people identify themselves truthfully. So they are not anonymous. If you ask me what my qualifications are, I would gladly tell you. (I'm not a geisha expert so I haven't touched this article, but I do read Japanese.) In your case, we know nothing about you. Why are you so shy? Imagine if Wikipedia were a printed edition. You think people would buy this encyclopedia when the writers/editors are all nameless and anonymous? How can we take you seriously if you decide to remain anonymous? Photojpn.org 05:00, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Um, what about using "performing artist"? Zora 07:45, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"Performing artist" isn't correct either. Photojpn, if you want to continue the discussion about anonymity, you can do so on my talk page, but please remember that I don't have to answer to you or anyone else. No one on Wikipedia is required to divulge personal information about him- or her-self. If you don't like it, feel free to start your own project. Exploding Boy 17:41, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

Zora, the word geisha consists of two kanji characters: gei + sha. "Sha" literally means "person." That's why we want to use the word "person" in the literal translation. The problem is "gei" which does not correspond to any one word in English. "Artist" might sound better in English, but it's not a literal translation. To Exploding Boy, this will be my second-to-the-last message on a Japan-related Wikipedia page. I'm withdrawing my participation in Wikipedia to spend more time on my own project (which I had started even before you suggested it). (My last message will be on the Tokyo discussion page.) Photojpn.org 11:45, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Before everyone tries to debate the proper translation in English, perhaps someone should research into the proper Kanji writing for geisha first. I am not Japanese myself, but I thought the proper writing for geisha is 芸妓 and the term 芸者 is for performing artists. Actually 芸妓 is one kind of 芸者 too by definition. Google search finds 65K 芸妓 and 170K 芸者. Looks like the google matches on 芸者 include other artists like musicians etc. Those who continue the research should pay attention to traditional usage vs. modern usage too. The second character of 芸妓 carries a negative connotation because another usage of 妓 means prostitutes. Since 芸妓 is not a prostitutes, the name might have changed in modern usage to stay away from the misleading image. Kowloonese 21:55, Jun 24, 2005 (UTC)

The japanese version of this Wikipedia article (as well as the linked site Immortal Geisha) states that the difference between "geisha" and "geiko" is that the former is Tokyo dialect, and the latter is Kyoto dialect, and the words for apprentices are "hangyoku" and "maiko" respectively. It also says that these two sets of expressions are used to refer to geisha and apprentice geisha in Tokyo and Kyoto respectively. It is interesting to notice that in english usage (in my experience), while the Tokyo dialect "geisha" is used, the Kyoto dialect "maiko" is used when reffering to apprentice geisha. Also, the japanese Wikipedia article states that "geigi" is the broader term, including both "geisha" and "geiko".

[edit] Maiko vs geigo

The article refers to apprentice geisha in romaji as maiko. However, 芸子 and indeed the given hiragana pronounciation is "geiko" ("young geisha" according to wwwjdic). Having a romanization entirely different from the original Japanese seems rather misleading. According to wwwjdic, while maiko also means "apprentice geisha", it is written 舞子. Am I missing something here?

To answer your question to the best of my ability... In Kyoto, maiko is generally written 舞妓 and geiko is typically written 芸妓. The characters 芸者 are pronounced geisha, and this a the term used just about everywhere outside of Kyoto, to my knowledge. The characters literally mean "art person" or artist, but the term is used in Japan exclusively for geisha, not for artists in general.

[edit] Minor Changes/Contributions

My compliments to the original contributor of this article. Great work.

I took the liberty of making a few minor rhetorical adjustments based on information from my own conversations with geisha as well as friends of geisha (properly geiko-san) in Kyoto, Japan. The information that I submitted and/or adjusted, regarding the danna-san, the prostitution stigma, and the status of Gion and Pontocho, is widely available to those interested in the subject. A number of books, such as Liza Dalby's "Geisha," as well as documentaries, such as A&E's "The Secret Life of Geisha" provide clear, verifiable information. Virtually all of the information I submitted is reflected in those and other credible sources.

I also added a photo of a geiko as she works a gathering in typical fashion. While snapshots of geisha posing outdoors are commonplace on the Internet, I have found that candid glimpses into the actual banquets where the geisha typically earn their living are relatively rare. The geiko-san that appears in the photo (in which the cigar is being lit) is a real-life geisha hosting a gathering in a ryotei on Hanamikojidouri, which is the main street in Gion that is shown in another picture on the page.

It is apparent that the two "maiko" pictured at the upper right section of the article are, in fact, Japanese women posing as maiko and not the real thing -- just as the caption indicates. The kimonos, the hair styles, and the way the maiko are standing are all wrong -- not even a brand new maiko would be permitted to pose this way. It is a beautiful picture of two very lovely creatures, but it is not authentic. In my opinion it should not be included in this article for that reason alone. I would leave it in place, though, until someone finds a suitable replacement. It does have good visual impact.

I hope my contributions were useful. If not, please edit or delete them. The article is still far from perfect or complete, so hopefully more people will come forward and contribute.

[edit] Kanji Character for Geisha

In the english article, it says that the Kanji character for Geisha is 芸者, but if you go to the Japanese article for Geisha, they use the character 芸妓 instead. I understand there are differences on how the word for this particular art is used in the Kansai region and the Tokyo region, in which in cities like Kyoto, they tend to use 芸妓, while in Tokyo they tend to use 芸者. My question is, which one should the english wikipedia use?

    • I would say we should mention both, but primarily 芸者 since it corresponds with the word geisha. Geisha is a term used in the west and pretty much everywhere in Japan outside of the Kyoto/Kansai area. Ironically, the traditional roots of the art are in Kyoto, and most of the "geisha" we see in the movies, in this article, etc. are actually depictions of entertainers from Kyoto who would refer to themselves only as geiko. Nonetheless, I think it would be inaccurate to connect 芸妓 with the word geisha without explaining the difference. So, I would say that the kanji 芸者 is appropriate for this article, with the kanji 芸妓 included with an explanation of the difference. ToddLara 23:37, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
The kanji 芸者 is read geisha, and the kanji 芸妓 is read geiko or geigi (with different meanings). In the Japanese article, the title is geigi (芸妓), and geisha (芸者) and geiko (芸妓) are discussed as Tokyo and Kyoto dialect for geigi.

[edit] Copied?

Part of this article appears to be copied from this page. The makeup section in particular. Rmhermen 23:38, 29 January 2006 (UTC)


Also, the Geisha hairstyles section is word-for-word copied from this [page]. It's possible that the original author was also the author of that page, but it seems unlikely. There doesn't seem to be any copyright information (as the link is to a personal webpage) but it is on a .edu website so that might mean something.

[edit] "poppy"

Poppy Industries is no nore in Australia. It closed down some years ago. Sorry guys but its no longer around and the products are gone too.

[edit] Suggestions

A BBC2 documentary broadcasted yesterday noted two additional facts about maiko/geisha, though i cannot verify them. The senior geisha house keeper and trainer, excuse my expressions, revealed to a maiko the following purpose of the white make-up: in older days it would reflect the scarce candle-light in order to show her face better, and thus showing the geisha's beauty clearer. Another note was that the 2 V's in the neck were a sexual reference, but to what was not explained. Still all this could be a local or personal explaination, making me hesitate to add this information. 83.85.83.86 11:04, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

As to the first, I can't verify it, but if it's not true it's a lovely story. As to the second, the nape of the neck is considered sexy. The 2 or 3 unwhitened portions left in that area are supposed to heighten the effect. Exploding Boy 16:31, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
OK. I'll try to verify the first, as soon as i can make time for it. W.ouwehand 20:25, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction

I put in the contradiction template, because of the (seemingly) contradictory mentionings of the term used in Kyoto (geiko, but only maiko (both in first paragraph)). --Marcoscramer 21:21, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

According to immortal geisha, maiko is not geisha but training to be a geisha which last for 5 years of training. Geiko is another word for geisha, only used in Kyoto. (From the information I gathered.) jynx 04:52, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources cited

This article is extremely skimpy on the sources cited. It could use {{fact}} sprinkled liberally throughout, and maybe even a tag at the top, but a note asking nicely on the talk page is less abrupt. So, could some footnotes be put in, please? - brenneman{L} 01:19, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I was going to add one after the last rewrite but didn't get around to it. Will soon. Exploding Boy 01:43, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wording

I don't understand what's meant by ""Geisha," is the most familiar term to English speakers..."

What that means is that another term, geiko (which comes from the Kyoto dialect), is also used to mean the same thing, but that the term geisha (from the Tokyo dialect, and therefore used in many other areas of Japan as well, excepting Kyoto and possibly other locations in the Kansai region in this case) is more familiar to Western English-speakers. Which is true (I can verify that much; I'm a native English speaker, and one with an interest in Japan at that, and had never known of the term geiko until today. Memoirs of a Geisha is about a Kyoto geiko, but does not use the Kyoto dialect term in the title, you'll notice, probably for this reason, as the book is actually a romance novel written by a native English-speaker, Arthur Gdlden, not actual memoirs). Runa27 23:09, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "inaccurate depictions"

How is the novel, Memoirs of a Geisha, an inaccurate depiction?Mossman93 21:49, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Where to begin? Exploding Boy 21:58, 11 April 2006 (UT

The accuracy of the book is questionable because it is a novel written by a non-Japanese man who had incounters with a geisha. The book is based on what he wants to believe, not necessarily what's true.

You forgot, dear Anonymouse, to mention that his own direct source for information on geisha, Mineko Iwasaki, has sued him for, as I've heard it, "misrepresentations", supposedly because he claimed her, a genuine geisha, as his main source, but did not stay 100% accurate to what his source told him (another thing I've heard is that she agreed to be only an anonymous source, and had recieved death threats after his book was published with her being thanked by name in the introduction, but I haven't looked into it much yet). For the moment, I'm taking what he's written with a grain of salt. After all, Memoirs is a novel, fiction; meant to be entertaining more than informative. Runa27 23:15, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Memoirs of a Geisha

1) As a matter of fact, Liza Dalby played an active role in the filming of Memoirs of a Geisha, highlighted on the 'Special Features' DVD, playing consultant to both the director and the actresses, and Arthur Golden cites her book as one of his main sources of research. Point is, you can't praise Liza Dalby and condemn Memoirs in the same breath.

2) Golden was initially sued because he used her name in the book (in the acknowledgements, not the story), when she'd given him information in exchange for keeping her name confidential. My guess is that she figured that while she was in court, she'd get her money's worth. And it's all a matter of opinion, anyway - she claimed that he misinterpreted her story, but since when is that a crime? It wasn't as if he was writing a book about her, so technically, he didn't defame her name.

3) As mentioned in an earlier comment (although I don't quite think that constitutes prostitution, per se), the custom of mizuage did exist. I've heard so many people say that Golden made all that up, that geisha don't sell sex, yadda, yadda, yadda - but it's right here on Wikipedia for all to see. Some people misinterpret it, thinking modern geisha follow the custom as well, and when they find out otheriwse they condemn Golden for making geisha sound like prostitutes. Fact is, it was outlawed in 1958, so in Sayuri's time it did exist. As I said, I don't believe that necessarily constitutes prostitution, but that's another argument entirely... (unsigned comment posted by User:70.187.226.94)

The fact that Liza Dalby was a consultant doesn't mean that the depiction is accurate. "Misinterpreted" isn't the right word here; it suggests that only audiences misinterpret the film/novel incorrectly, which is only partly true. The real problem is that the film/novel are inaccurate, evidenced in part by the fact that the woman on whom Golden based Sayuri, a former geisha, sued him for millions when the book was released. Exploding Boy 01:09, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
In what respect are they inaccurate? I believe that "misinterpreted" is the right word - people see the movie/read the book and make assumptions about geisha that aren't neccessarily true. There's nothing blatantly inaccurate about the movie/book itself.(unsigned comment posted by User:70.187.226.94)

Much of the story is inaccurate. Remember, it is a work of fiction created by a white, western man about Japanese women who live in a way that is little understood by outsiders. The movie is particularly inaccurate, in terms of costume, hair, makeup, language, soundtrack and on and on and on, and in its depiction of geisha as basically high-class prostitutes/chattel.

Please sign your comments by typing four tildes (~), like this: ~~~~.

Exploding Boy 23:07, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

...soundtrack? What are you talking about? There is no possible way for the soundtrack to be inaccurate - real geisha did not have music narrating their lives at every turn. And what makes you think that you're more qualified to make that assumption than Golden? As I said, he had people like Liza Dalby consulting on set, people with hands-on experience in the matter. You, on the other hand, have opinions based on the opinions of others.
And 'its depiction of geisha as basically high-class prostitutes/chattel' is an entirely objective statement. I watched the movie, and I did not see it that way at all - need I remind you that Wikipedia is not supposed to be based on opinion? I personally think that it would be best to remove the mention of Memoirs entirely, so that neither of our opinions mar the content. You have presented absolutely no factual basis for saying that Memoirs was inaccurate, and so, in removing my edits because you disagree with them, you are going against Wikipedia's rules. I may have also in re-editing your changes, but unlike you, I've offered to compromise.

Regarding the soundtrack, real geisha interviewed about the move have said that it features a type of shamisen never heard in Kyoto.

Regarding the participation of Liza Dalby, the book and film are fictional, and created for a western audience.

Regarding the depiction of geisha, I once again refer you to the woman who sued Golden in part for those very reasons.

Still, this little edit war is becoming tiresome, so I've removed the word "inaccurate," as well as "misinterpreted," in the hopes that this will at least for now solve this problem.

Also, please sign your posts by typing four tildes (~) at the end of each post, like this: ~~~~. This will "stamp" each post with your user name and the date. Thanks. Exploding Boy 02:37, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm tired of being talked down to by you, so I guess I'll settle for that. Removing any mention of Memoirs would be preferable, but as I said, I'm tired of arguing points that you refute with insufferable patronization. Let me leave you, however, with this: Sometimes, not everyone agrees with you. Deal with it. =\ (another unsigned comment posted by User:70.187.226.94)
I agree, I have hardly seen you, ExplodingBoy, refute anything with any facts other than that its fiction and someone sued her. Yes, its fiction, ever heard of historical fiction? And I got the impression she sued him because she was mentioned and not because it was so historically innacurate. I think you either need to prove how its wrong or not keep making sparse assumptions off of even sparser information. Blanket stating everything in the book/movie is wrong because its fiction and someone was sued are not evidence of how the book/movie is wrong. Prove it with facts from the book/movie or stop complaining.24.55.129.137 16:34, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
If I might suggest a reference to Sayo Masuda's Autobiography of a Geisha, instead. Written in 1950's by an actual geisha, the account is largely considered to be unfailing accurate and reasonably characteristic. Far better than the inaccurate embellishment that is Memoirs...

24.124.14.65 01:31, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Memoirs

I think this page still needs a lot of work - regarding Memoirs of a Geisha...to not dissect the book / film is like ignoring the elephant in the room. Right now all we have is basically "Both novel and film have prepetuated a flawed and glorified image of the life of a geisha." and then we say nothing to back that up or delve deeper into the issues surrounding them...69.142.158.49 09:26, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Memoirs of a Geisha

In the article's last sentence, the novel "Memoirs of a Geisha" is mentioned as prepetuating "a flawed and glorified life of the life of a geisha". Could the writer or someone else please give reasons for this? As it stands now, it's nothing more than an opinion, and I don't think that's very helpful. 80.228.134.58 19:49, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mizuage

I removed the sentence "This is because their virginity would be sold to the highest bidder, the person who would pay the most to sleep with them." because this is a very disputed issue, and should not be presented as fact. MightyAtom 02:21, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sugar coating...

Is it me, or does the article seem to be sugar coating some aspects of Geisha? It states that sometimes, children are SOLD as geishas and begin their training. A lot of times, they have SEXUAL relationships in return for FINANCIAL support. Not only do they sound like prostitutes (a "higher" form of it, you could say), but they sound like sex-slaves who MAY have grown to accept or like their lifestyles. Are children still being sold this way?? And are they prostitutes or are they not?

In this context, one really has to note the difference between Geisha and prostitutes. Of course, in the modern world, no one is SOLD to a geisha house. In fact, the declining population of Geisha is due mainly to the exhausting amount of training necessary to become a Geisha, as oppossed to the finacial rewards one receives. Geisha are NOT prositutes, by any stretch of the imagination. MightyAtom 17:56, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
The closest thing to geisha in Western culture may be the opera singer or ballerina. They are all members of an elite class of performance artists who must train very hard from a young age to master specialized music and dance skills. And remember that until only about a century ago, ballerinas and opera singers in the West were considered hardly better than prostitutes. After all, they were usually attractive young women who performed (both in public and at private parties!) in revealing costumes, and they often received financial support from wealthy male patrons as well. I'm sure that some ballerinas have even had sex with their patrons, but this doesn't mean that ballerinas are "really" prostitutes. Same for geisha. CKarnstein 06:11, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Geisha in popular culture?

Why is this Setsuka from Soul Calibur III character mentioned? Her connections to geisha seem very slim, judging from that picture. She's wearing her obi in the front. If you click on the characters page, it says "She's styled as a mix between the Queen of Hearts and courtesans known as oiran."

Anyone object to this section being removed? MightyAtom 05:12, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, I moved this section to the article on oiran, where it is better suited. MightyAtom 05:11, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re:Sorry Guys

This is in response to Sorry Guys. Geisha are not prostitutes. Arthur Golden is wrong. He is an American man, and not a Japanese Geisha. The word Mizuage has multiple meanings. The first refers to Oiran (high-class prostitutes of Japan) losing their virginity. The second meaning refers to how much money a geisha made in that year, by her skills, not sex. It's obvious how these two may become confused, but for Arthur Golden to make a statment based on his extreme confusion is shameful to geisha everywhere. Geisha are free to engage in sexual activity, but no true geisha would sell her sex. Please also refer to the Wikipedia article on onsen geisha. Know that onsen geisha are not true geisha.

Clearly there needs to be a specific section in the Geisha article addressing Mizuage. Any volunteers? MightyAtom 03:16, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Number of modern Geisha?

Any reference for this:

"In modern Japan, geisha and maiko are now a rare sight outside Kyoto. In the 1920s there were over 80,000 geisha in Japan, but today there are far fewer - a commonly accepted estimate is 10,000. However, visitors to Kyoto's Gion district are likely to catch a glimpse of a maiko on her way to or from an appointment."

I have heard the number of operationg Geisha in Kyoto to be around 100 or so. Also, the last sentence is patently untrue! All the time I have spent in Gion in Kyoto, and I have NEVER seen a Geisha on her rounds.MightyAtom 12:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Really? Last time I was in Kyoto I stayed for about 4 days and saw at least 10 geisha on the streets in Gion and Pontocho. Exploding Boy 19:33, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
ACTUAL geisha or tourists dressed up as geisha? I've seen lots of tourists who dress up as geisha and walk around posing for pictures, but never a real geisha/maiko out on her rounds. Was just there for 3 days last week end, wandering around Gion at dusk. MightyAtom 21:42, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

No, real ones. Coming in and out of houses, tea houses and restaurants. Alone or in small groups. Clearly not just tourists. Try that little main street in Pontocho by the river -- the opposite side of the main road from where all the hostess clubs are. Exploding Boy 03:38, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I know that street well. Just where I was walking around last weekend, but nary a geisha in sight...sigh...maybe I am just unlucky.MightyAtom 04:22, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, could be. The place was lousy with them last time I was there :) A good time to go is around May, when they do the Kamogawa Odori. You can buy tickets super cheap and go to the Kaburenjo and watch Real! Live! Geisha! sing, dance and perform. When you're wandering the streets, watch for the Japanese guy with the pony tail and camera. He hangs out and photographs the geisha coming and going. They all seem to know him so they stop, and it's a great chance to take some pictures of your own. 05:46, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I went to a talk by the author of a book on geisha last weekend, and he laughed when I told him wikipedia says there are around 10,000 active geisha. He said the number was probably around 200 in all of Japan. However, this is original research, so I can't really post it. However, the 10,000 number is wildly inaccurate. MightyAtom 06:55, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
It's not 200; there are 80-110 in Gion Kobu alone, so I seriously doubt that the other hanamachi can survive with about five to ten geisha apiece. I'm guessing this faulty information came from this page, since it was one of the first to pop up under a google search of "geisha number." This site says that the number is under 1,000, and they that the number is under 200. Seems like there's some serious discrepancy. I hesitate to trust anything but kenban records.

Ha! That http://www.japancorner.com site says that Memoirs of a Geisha is a true story, so that disqualifies that as any sort of reference! The under-200 number comes from Peter MacIntosh, who is pretty much THE authority on Kyoto geisha. He is married to a former Tayū, and knows the world inside and out.

http://www.petermacintosh.com/

He is a very trustworthy resource, but since it was original research, I can't post it...

But! The number is definitely wrong. MightyAtom 14:41, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] About "Geisha in popular culture" section

This section seems a little inadaquate. Most of it is generalized information about the West's preoccupation with Geisha. Shouldn't their be something about the Geishas' presence in or influence on Japanese popular culture? I'd really like to know about this. Would someone who's knowledgable about this consider adding to the article?

I agree that this section needs to be re-vamped. However, as to the influence of Geisha in Japanese popular culture, it is almost nil. In Japan, they aren't really important, although most Japanese are aware of the West's fascination with geisha. You will rarely see geisha in books, movies, manga, etc...Unfortunately, I don't have any sources to support this, just daily life. And that would be original research, so...MightyAtom 08:15, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
This isn't true. In most Japanese TV dramas staged in Kyoto, there is a scene involving an (improperly dressed) maiko. In addition, antique geisha hairpins are a popular item in Harajuku boutiques. --Iriseyes 23:48, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dancing

Geisha are, first and foremost, dancers and musicians, but this article completely lacks a section on it. Can someone rectify this? In addition, why was the section on specialization changed? Geisha do not specialize depending on their hanamachi, this information is mind-bogglingly incorrect. Quite frankly, ugly geisha do not dance. --Iriseyes 19:15, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

If you have references, please update the article, but be sure to reference the updates. Anything coming from your personal knowledge would count as original research, which is against wikipedia guidelines. Also, try to be aware of the language used. Instead of "ugly geisha do not dance," something like "physical attractiveness plays a role in selecting a geisha's specialty." MightyAtom 01:41, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
I added one of the books I got the information from as a reference; I see you let it live now. --Iriseyes 13:47, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Images

I sent out image use requests to Immortal Geisha and Rising Sun Imports. Immortal Geisha has, of course, a great collection of authentic geisha images, and Rising Sun has a fantastic image of a maiko's obi in a teahouse; this picture has got to be included. --Iriseyes 19:19, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Image permission was granted. However, the new image of a maiko at "Gion Corner" is fairly ugly. Can anyone find a more attractive alternate? --Iriseyes 01:24, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

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