Talk:Gate of Dawn
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[edit] Rename
Hmm, theoretically the article should be under its English name, but the gate is totally unknown to the world as Pointed Gate and there are lots of pointed gates everywhere (55 hits in Google). The dominant name is Ostra Brama (1030 hits), but I guess our Lithuanian friends might be a tad sensitive about this so I left the article here (329 Google hits). Feel free to comment. Halibutt 12:47, Sep 20, 2004 (UTC)
- The correct English name of the gate is not "Pointed Gate" but "Dawn Gate of Vilnius". Therefore I'm going to move the article if noone objects. Lysy 12:10, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
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- "Dawn Gate" is a historical nonsence. It is simple translation of lithuanian "Aušros vartai". Historians know that gates were named "Sharp gates" and in polish language this name survived - "Ostra Brama", polish Ostra - sharp. Natural polonisation of lithuanians around Vilnius began from the beginning of XVIII century. And till the end of XIX - beginning of XX centuries these gates among lithuanians were called Ostra Brama too. During lithuanian national awaking, appeared strong lituanisation mania. Many places names were reconstructed in authentical lithuanian form, but many renames were "reconstructed" in such way that never were called in lithuanian, or even for lithuanians were unknown. So happened to Ostra Brama - Ostra sounds like Aušra (in lithuanian Aušra means Dawn in english) in lithuanian, Brama was correctly translated to Vartai, but meaning of this place was completely changed. And in the world these gates till 1940 were known under Ostra Brama name.--Tarakonas 06:56, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
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- Yes, but in 2006 it is known as "Gate of Dawn" or Aušros Vartai in Lithuanian. --Lysytalk 07:19, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- No, there is one more hypothesis that the ancient name of the gate Auštra (what is now Aušra, the Dawn) sounded similarly as Ostra, so the name was "translated" that way. Another very interesting hypothesis is that initially this gate was named by monks Austra Brama i.e. Southern Gate from Latin Australis. Later it turned Aušra in Lithuanian and simultaniuosly Ostra in Slavic. But who knows for sure? :) The Oldest name is Medininkai or Ašmena Gate, anyway Iulius 07:25, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- It's no matter what name of gates were in medieval times, because these names were forgotten. The fact: current lithuanian name "Aušros vartai" was made from polish "Ostra Brama". And english name "Gate of Dawn" became more known only now, from last 16 years, when tourists began to visit Vilnius. Contemporary translation was did by lithuanians to diminish polish influence onto history and culture of Vilnius. The fact: in soviet times it was trend to name gates in lithuanian such way - "Aušros (Medininkų) vartai" - once again to diminish catholic influence. Now lithuanians trying to push own POV, saying "Gate of Dawn" is the right translation forgetting complex history with the name of gates. I'd said nothing if these facts were mentioned in article.--Tarakonas 08:08, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
- Well, you may like it or not, but the article is written now, and the modern English name is Gate of Dawn, the translation of the Lithuanian name. I'm surprised that you are unhappy about Lithuanians naming the gate, which is an important historic monument in Lithuania's capital city. Do you think that the name should be not decided by Lithuanians but somebody else ? Polish ? Russians ? --Lysytalk 08:33, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
- No, there is one more hypothesis that the ancient name of the gate Auštra (what is now Aušra, the Dawn) sounded similarly as Ostra, so the name was "translated" that way. Another very interesting hypothesis is that initially this gate was named by monks Austra Brama i.e. Southern Gate from Latin Australis. Later it turned Aušra in Lithuanian and simultaniuosly Ostra in Slavic. But who knows for sure? :) The Oldest name is Medininkai or Ašmena Gate, anyway Iulius 07:25, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, but in 2006 it is known as "Gate of Dawn" or Aušros Vartai in Lithuanian. --Lysytalk 07:19, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Polish language in English article!
I'm absolutely surprised how it comes that Vilnius is written Wilno. There is no such city in Europe (when we talk in English). Vilnius (the current name for the city) was known as Vilnia for English people earlier, but now it's Vilnius.
- Not Vilnia but Vilna. I think Vilna is a pretty common English name for Vilnius. Lysy
It is absolutely clear that the name has never been changed so we should use current version of it, otherwise it is hardly understood for English people. In discussions it's explained why city must be called Vilnius.
- It simply follows wikipedia's convention of using the right name in its historical context. Nothing really surprising here. Lysy 17:56, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
