Talk:Garry Kasparov

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[edit] Kasparov was not beaten by Deep Blue

He won the first match and Blue won the second, 1 - 1. The representatives of Blue declined/withdrew from a another game which would have determined the winner and end the tie. Kasparov would undoubtedly have won the third match considering the second math, "Blue didn't beat Kasparov, Kasparov beat Kasparov". The weight on his shoulders and the propaganda stirring around this machine resulted in a self jinx. Nevertheless, Kasparov was unbeaten.

-G


--- He was up against a 3,000-pound bundle of 512 computers bear-hugging 200 million moves a second to beat him. Kasparov, evaluating a measly two or three moves a second, still managed to win one game and tie three more in the six-game contest

A couple of questions: Where does he live nowadays? In what language is he writing his books? Where can I find more articles by him?

He first started learning to play chess after studying a chess problem set up by his parents, and proposed a solution to it.

I don't understand. How can you start learning to play chess after solving a chess problem? The rules of chess are not intuitive.

No idea, but he studied this chess board for quite some time and then offered a possible solution to his parents, who seemed a little surprised too. They then decided to teach him to play chess. Does sound strange, but its been mentioned in quite a number of books and magazines I've read over the years.

Also there's quite a distinction between learning the moves of chess, and learning how to play chess well. The first can take a month, the latter a lifetime and not succeed. I'm referring to Garry learning to play chess in regards to making a living with it, not learning the basic moves - apologies.

I made a revision to the line in question. Hopefully, it should be clearer. fvincent 19:28, Dec 3, 2003 (UTC)
Since a citation is called for in the article, allow me to quote the following from: Unlimited Challenge, An autobiography by Garry Kasparov with Donald Trelford, ISBN 0-00-637358-5 :
"My parents used to like solving the chess problems which were published in our local Baku neewspaper, Vyshka. At the time, I did not play chess, although I was always close by, studiously following each move of the pieces on the board. Once, to my parents´ utter amazement, I suggested how to solve a problem. My father said, "Well, since he knows how the game ends, he ought to be shown how it begins", and with that he began explaining the rules to me. In a short time, it became difficult to drag me away from the game, and a year later I was already beating my father." Sir48 22:44, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

His first name is Gari or Gary ???

Neither. Since he's Russian so it would be in Cyrillic (Don't even ask me about the spelling combinations of Korchnoi, Ivanchuk and Nimzowitsch I've seen - its all because the names are non-English, and created in "other" letters :-) ). A rough translation would be Garri, but commonly in English print he's referred to as Garry (two R's in both cases).

  • He changed it from the original Gari to Garry because 13 is his lucky number; born on the 13th, 13th champ, "Garry Kasparov"=13 letters.

What would Gary Kasparov do when his in midgame with his wife during a picnic and the rain starts tumbling down? She's about to defend a check mate move - does he stay and get wet for the kill or does he call it a draw (effecting the win/loss ration). It's tough, I'll give you that.

I'd like to see some discussion of politics. I remember his playing under the Russian flag in perestroika time in spite of being born in Azerbaijan. It seems interesting. -- Error 02:43 May 7, 2003 (UTC)

Well, during the time of perestroika he played for the USSR, of course (and Azerbaijan was part of the USSR), but since then he's played for Russia, yes. I don't think it's particularly significant politically - it's just that he's lived in Russia for most of his life, hasn't he? There's something that could be said about politics here, though - Kasparov's been heavily involved in the politics of chess, and I think he had some involvement in Russian politics following the collapse of the USSR. --Camembert
Probably I remembered something like http://www.mark-weeks.com/chess/90kk$$.htm  :

Both players should have displayed the flag of the Soviet Union, but Kasparov chose to use the new tricolor Russian flag to show support for Boris Yeltsin. Karpov protested on the grounds that FIDE rules dictated that "miniature flags of the nations to which the players belong are to be placed on the table". Appeals jury Lim Kok An and Bessel Kok decided that there would be no flags.

And was he ethnically Russian, Armenian or Jew?

-- Error 03:34 May 7, 2003 (UTC)

Answering myself http://pkchess.bizland.com/chesspress/chesspress6/cpress6_4.html :
Can we forget that he was the first who fought successfully even in the Soviet times to ban the monopoly of the Soviet government on the earnings of Soviet sportsmen and chess players? Or that he was the first to play under the Russian flag against Karpov in New York in 1990 when the communists were still in power in the Soviet Union? Can we forget his help to the Chernobyl victims or the Armenian refugees during the pogroms in Baku in January 1991?
And http://www.twoplustwo.com/digests/excharch_dec00_msg.html
Quiz #1: Kasparov's parents are Jewish and Armenian, he was born in Azerbaijan, and he chooses(in the past, at least) to play under the Russian flag. 'What' is he?
-- Error
Ah yes, I see what you mean - I forgot about the 1990 business. He's certainly been very politically involved - you're right, it'd be interesting to see something about that side of him here (I'm not the person to write it though, I fear). --Camembert

Garri Kasparov is a rat. I clearly remember in the old communist days of the Soviet Union how he was a 'proud' member of the communist party and how he pretended to be dedicated to the party. When things started to change, he adjusted accordingly, and when the game was over (no pun intended) he started to bad mouth the old system. His chess politics have been even more hypocritical and dirty. It should be noted also that he is the only grandmaster known so far, to have cheated in an official chess game and caught on camera. In Linares 1994 tournament, he was playing black again J. Polgar ... he moved his knight to a square that would have been a losing move for him, he let go of the piece, then he grabbed the knight again and put it on another square. After the game it was shown that his cheating was cpatured on a camera. This is Garri Kasparov in a nutshell. Also, his main strength in chess is his home preparation and database-like memorized openings, as clearly evident from most of his games.

Yeah, well, most Communists stopped actually believing in the Party after about 1970-1980, but simply said they believe in it: a. to stay alive and b. to avoid censure by the government. Tom Clancy novels describe that well. ugen64 02:06, Dec 4, 2003 (UTC)
'J'adoube.'
You're entitled to your opinion of course, but I don't see how anybody can seriously believe that in light of Kasparov-Topalov, Wijk aan Zee 1999. --Camembert

Where does this estimated X3D Fritz rating (2807) come from? --Camembert

Answering my own question: it's quoted as 2807 on X3D's site. I'd like to know how they came up with the number, but I'll guess we never will. --Camembert
I am not sure where the rating of that particular chess program/machine comes from, but I can tell you something about this subject. I used to be an active tournamet chess player. Many official tournaments allow computer chess programs to participate just like a regular human player. Usually the programmers who write chess programs like to take their programs to tournaments for obvious reasons. Therefore, in the case of such programs, their rating is based on their performance in chess tournaments just like any regular player.
Yes, I know that, but this particular version of Fritz was, as I understand it, tweaked compared to other versions specifically for Kasparov, and had not played (publically) against any rated player before this match. I suppose they based the rating on the performance of other versions of Fritz. My curiousity was aroused, really, by the unusually precise nature of the estimate - normally, when people guess at the rating of programs, they'll say "oh, it's about 2750" or "around 2600" - some nice round number like that. 2807 seemed spookily precise to just be guessing at it. Still, we've got the source for the estimate now, so I'm happy. --Camembert

This page was listed on Wikipedia:Brilliant prose candidates. At User:Eloquence's suggestion I added some headings. However I don't mind if the content writers of this article don't like it and want to revert to the plainer version. Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 13:25, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I like it. I was going to do something similar myself, but was too lazy :) --Camembert

human's days are numbered.

Xah P0lyglut 04:56, 2003 Dec 13 (UTC)

Here: ...as well as defending his title three times against his arch-opponent Karpov.
Anatoly Karpov: ...fighting Kasparov in over five arduous World Championship matches...
Seems inconsistent to me. -- Jao 17:21, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)

It may seem so, but it is not. The first match was played in 1984 - Karpov was champion and Kasparov was challenger - the match was abandoned without result. The second match, still with Karpov as champion, was the following year - Kasparov won. The two subsequently played three more matches (in 1986, 1987 and 1990) in which Kasparov was defending his title. Therefore, five matches played, three of them with Kasparov defending his title. (Unless you mean the fault is with the tautological "in over", which gives the midleading impression there were more than five matches) --Camembert
The context at Anatoly Karpov with "remained" seemed to exclude the 1984 and 1985 matches, though. (And yes, "over" has to mean "more than", but that's not what I thought of.) But the new wording is very clear, thanks for that. -- Jao 21:04, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I feel it should be mentioned how he puts his watch on the table and when he is confident he will win, he puts it back on his arm. This is just something I heard today. Maybe someone who knows more of these little things that are to him in his way of acting during matches or general personality - like in Bobby Fischer - could add to this and write it somewhere in there? --Lenton 15:55, Mar 22, 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, it's an interesting little habit, that, probably worth mentioning at some point (not sure how we'd work it into the article though). I remember as a kid when I saw his watch-related antics, I began to imitate him in my own games (to my disappointment, it didn't make me a better player). I don't know if it's really that he puts his watch back on when he's confident of winning, however, so much as when he thinks the game is basically over, win, lose or draw. Maybe I'm wrong about that. --Camembert

No discussion of his rivalry with Karpov? I had inserted it into the Karpov page, perhaps we should do so here?--Etaonish 14:48, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Historical revisionism and Kasparov

On the Historical revisionism page, it states, Finally the term "historical revisionism", or simply "revisionism" is used sometimes to refer to specific revisionist theories associated with the famous chess player Garry Kasparov, which believe that the events of what are known as the last 3,000 years occurred in either a much shorter or a much longer time frame, and attempts to explain how. Does anybody know what they are talking about? If Kasparov is involved, why is nothing said about this on this page? ChessPlayer 12:46, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

I've never heard of it before. It sounds like the sort of belief that somebody might hold, but I've never heard of Kasparov holding it. I'm going to remove that paragraph to talk:historical revisionism. --Camembert

I have once heard some wacko theory that the middle ages was something like 400 years shorter than we think it was, however, I do not remember where I read it. Danny 17:01, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

Turns out I was wrong. In case anybody is interested, see Talk:Historical revisionism for the end of this (slightly bizarre) story - Danny found an article by Kasparov showing he does indeed believe this stuff.
We could put a mention of this in this article, I suppose. We probably also ought to mention his involvement with Russian politics (wasn't he on the team of that Presidential candidate who got kidnapped in the elections this year (or was it last year? I forget)). I'll probably do it myself eventually if nobody else does, but I'd need to look some stuff up. --Camembert
FWIW: "About five years ago, I came across several books written by two mathematicians from Moscow State University: academician A.T. Fomenko and G.V. Nosovskij. The books described the work of a group of professional mathematicians, led by Fomenko, who had considered the issues of ancient and medieval chronology for more than 20 years with fascinating results. Using modern mathematical and statistical methods, as well as precise astronomical computations, they discovered that ancient history was artificially extended by more than 1 000 years. For reasons beyond my understanding, historians are still ignoring their work." [1]

See New Chronology (Fomenko) — the theory Kasparov supports. — Monedula 07:23, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Hi folks... I added a line (actually, a paragraph) about that, before reading the talk section here... I hope you don't oppose. Perhaps you would like to put it somewhere else in the page?... I'm still looking for more references on Kasparov's support to history revision. Fun fact: this page is one of the first pages in google when you look for "kasparov fomenko". -- nwerneck, 02 Dec 2005 02:34:25 -0200

Apparently this got deleted? It seems fairly well-documented and interesting, so I changed "other achievements" to "other" and added a line about it there. I know it's better to contribute than to complain, but it would be nice if this article had a section dedicated solely to Kasparov's political and other non-chess activities--they probably deserve more attention than the article currently gives them P4k 07:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] King pawn opening

The article Kasparov versus The World mentions Kasparov's "normal king pawn opening." This article doesn't mention it at all. Can someone add it and explain it? — Frecklefoot | Talk 15:34, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)

It doesn't mean anything, I think you may have misunderstood it. Kasparov likes playing e4, or the king pawn opening. That's really all it is. --Etaonish 15:51, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] 2004 update of stale sentence

As of 2004, Kasparov will play this match with the current FIDE World Champion, Rustam Kasimdzhanov, although whether these plans will come to fruition remains to be seen. In the meantime, Kasparov continues to play in tournaments, with good results on the whole. This sentence was from the article. It imply a continuous state, but since 2004 is over, i tacked it here. I can't tell whether the game was played, so i couldn't update the sentence.

  • "But their match in Dubai, a prelude to a match with world champion Vladimir Kramnik, was cancelled by the governing body of chess, Fide, after financial guarantees by the promoters failed to be offered. Kasparov is not pleased". [2] It seems they never played the game in question. --Wk muriithi

Well, the situation is still somewhat in flux: Dubai is definitely off, but there has been talk of the match being held in Turkey instead (frankly, I think the chances of it taking place are tiny, but that's another story). I'll update the article a bit. --Camembert

[edit] Photo

Does anyone else think the photo of him at the top of the page is hugely unflattering? While it does embody his focus, it seems to me that we could find a better photo. --Ronincyberpunk

I may be wrong, but I seem to remember that the reason that particular photo was included was because we felt pretty sure it was OK from a legal perspective; if I remember rightly, it is a frame from a web broadcast of Wijk aan Zee 2001, and people felt that just as the use of a single frame of a movie would count as fair use in the right context, so this would also count as fair use. That's not to say that we couldn't get away with using other photos as fair use (I really don't know if we could or not), but I think that's the reason we're using this particular one at the moment: it's considered pretty safe. --Camembert


[edit] Phrasing of Intro

Surely it would be clearer to phrase "last undisputed champion and classical champion"? Also adding mention of losses Septentrionalis 18:38, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Kasparov is described as "possibly the strongest human chess player in the world" - Surely a computer cannot be described as a player anymore than Wikipedia can be described as an intellectual. Remove the word "human". Atolmazel 04:56, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Protection?

Featured articles sometimes should be protected, as prominent targets for vandalism. Are all the vandals being blocked? Should this page be protected?-SV|t|th 21:40, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You can also see Kasparovs games here http://www.chessmaniac.com/Games/MyChessViewer/kasparov.htm

[edit] Deep Blue debate?

I remember Kasparov having issues with the way the second match against Deep Blue ended. I think he wanted to play Deep Blue again, and IBM left, saying Deep Blue had won, and that was that. Anyone want to add details on this? Venice 15:25, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think it's important to remember that the entire match, including the winnings, were paid for by IBM. Kasparov lost, but he walked home with $400,000 of IBM's money, so he didn't do too badly. Yes, he wanted a rematch. Who wouldn't? With the possibility of taking another $400K (or maybe $700K for a win)? I don't know if anyone else offered to sponsor the match, but IBM declined. Look, it's not really a chess match. It's a publicity stunt. Does anyone doubt that an unbeatable chess machine is possible? Shoaler 14:13, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
My hunch is that Kasparov would have had excellent chances in a re-match, because he could have learned more than Deep Blue in the interim. But what incentive did IBM have for a re-match? They were in it for the publicity, and Deep Blue winning again couldn't have possibly given them as much publicity as the first victory, whereas losing would have nullified much of their positive press. Furthermore, Kasparov was such a poor sport, essentially accusing IBM of cheating after one of his losses, I wouldn't be surprised if that factored into IBM's decision to refuse a rematch. --Fritzlein 15:42, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] povness

Please people, using expressions like "demolishing the field" is opinionated and completely unencyclopedic. State only the facts, and don't interpret their importance or value. Leave that to the reader. ✈ James C.

[edit] Request for references

Hi, I am working to encourage implementation of the goals of the Wikipedia:Verifiability policy. Part of that is to make sure articles cite their sources. This is particularly important for featured articles, since they are a prominent part of Wikipedia. The Fact and Reference Check Project has more information. Thank you, and please leave me a message when a few references have been added to the article. - Taxman 18:57, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)

I added a reference as requested for Kasparov's statement about World Championship chances following the 1978 Sokolsky Memorial. Search for Sokolsky in the linked interview. Skip Jordan 08:10, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Why dosen't it mention about his match against the internet? http://classic.zone.msn.com/kasparov/PressRel.asp

We actually have an entire article devoted to that game: Kasparov versus The World. But you're right, it should be mentioned in this article too (with a link to that one). I hope someone will do it; I'm feeling rather lazy at the moment... --Camembert 15:26, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Greatest player ever"?

Even the qualified "arguably the greatest player ever" or "arguably the strongest player ever" seems POV and highly controversial to me. Saying he is the greatest player ever is just subjective, depending on what you mean by "greatest" or how we decide who the "greatest" player is. It would be better to leave this up to the reader in my opinion. Saying "strongest player ever" is a bit better, but still controversial, given the fact that he was not world champion when he retired, and at least three other chessplayers were very close if not equal to him in terms of skill (Anand, Leko, Topalov, and of course Kramnik). Would it be better to say he is "one of the strongest chessplayers ever"? This would seem more accurate, less controversial, and less in need of qualification. --Malathion 05:28, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

In view of Kasparov's highest-of-all-time ELO rating, his having the highest rating in the world for many years, his bazillion tournament wins, his holding the world championship for 15 unbroken years -- longer than anyone in history besides Lasker -- stating that Kasparov is "arguably the strongest player ever" strikes me as a simple statement of fact. Certainly if one were to write a book today (as Euwe, Chernev and others have done in the past) addressing the issue of who the strongest player ever is, one would be ridiculed mercilessly (and rightly so) if one failed to discuss Kasparov as a contender for that distinction.

--Frederick R July 1, 2005

[edit] Vandalism

How can we get this article protected? I'm not familiar with the procedure here. --Malathion 19:47, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You could put a request on Wikipedia:Requests for page protection (a request on this talk page may also get a response). I don't think it needs protecting any more though - the vandalism seems to have stoppped - so I'll leave it be for now. --Camembert 20:04, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Maybe we can try removing the protection now? --Malathion 29 June 2005 03:09 (UTC)
Done. I must admit, I didn't realise it had been protected until just now (must have missed that on my watchlist). --Camembert 29 June 2005 10:51 (UTC)

[edit] This article does not mention his peak rating

Garry Kasparov's peak rating was 2851, which was listed in the July 1999 FIDE rating list. It is the highest FIDE rating ever achieved, the closest one to it was Kramnik's 2811 rating which was listed in the January 2002 and April 2002 rating list.

[edit] Kasparov's social life

Can we add a section detailing Kasparov's social life? I envision it would talk about Kasparov's wife and former wives, his children, and the fact that he talks many languages. Last I heard, he speaks 15 languages, can anyone confirm this?

[edit] Banja Luka

I've never heard this story (under "Early Career") about Kasparov playing at Banja Luka only because the Russian Chess Federation thought it was a junior tournament, and it sounds like a crock. This was a very strong GM tournament (the article says average rating 2595), so evidently no one else was confused. And why the hell did the Soviets also send former World Champion Petrosian (born 1929) if they thought it was a junior tournament?? (See http://www.queensac.com/archive/tournaments/banjaluka1979b.htm for the players in the tournament.) --Frederick R July 1, 2005

[edit] Image

Does anyone else think we need a new image? In that one, he's covering most of his face, and we can't really see what he looks like. Some alternatives I've found:

Image:Kasparov-story.jpg Image:Kasparof-fth.jpg

I'll look for more in a bit. --Malathion 02:45, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Russian chess players

Please note, that Kasparov is citizen of Russia, so article Garry Kasparov is in Category:Chess players by nationality->Category:Russian chess players --ajvol 09:15, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Maybe we should remove the other categories then? Unless he holds dual citizenship? --Malathion 09:29, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
He holds only Russian citizenship (since 1990) and lives in Moscow, as I know. --ajvol 10:53, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] What counts as trivial information?

I see that a properly documented story about Kasparov being pelted with eggs counts as trivia, whereas an undocumented one about someone hitting him over the head with a chessboard is not. Why? RachelBrown 14:50, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] his studies/field?

there is nothing mentioned in the bio about his classic studies. has he attended any university if yes what was his university field?

My guess is great chess players aren't that exceptional in other mental feats, that's why we don't hear about them (and obviously what's been said about Fischer is exaggerated and if not why wouldn't he perform some task like memorising hundreds of cards etc. if he really could do things like that)

[edit] Weinstein is German, not English

Daverocks's comments on his latest edit was: "69.244.34.232, "English" in that context does not imply that the origin of the name is English, but explains what "Vajnshtejn" would be in the English language". This got me wondering. Kasparov is a Russian who is descended from Germans originally named Weinstein. What has this got to do with the English language? Apparently nothing.

If he still went by his original name, we'd be spelling it in English as Vajnshtejn, Vajnshtajn, Vainshtain, or Vainshtein or some similar variant. The spelling can differ depending on the transliteration system used, but they would all start with the letter V. On the other hand, Germans would spell his name Weinstein (with the letter W) because that is their natural way of transliterating the Russian letters into German; and it would be silly to render it any other way given that it was Weinstein to begin with. Back to English, how can Weinstein be "what Vajnshtejn would be in the English language", when Vajnshtejn is already a transliteration of his Russian cyrillic-letter name into English? This is transliterating Russian into English, then translating that word from English into English, which is nonsensical.

The true explanation is that because German uses the same alphabet as English, there is no transliteration involved and a word in German is left untouched when quoted in an English language context. (We don't re-spell Wagner as VARGNER, or Weber as VAYBER.) "Weinstein" is NOT what his Russian name would be in the English language, but what it would be, and is, in the German language. This is English Wikipedia, not German. Given that he no longer uses the name but is now Kasparov, it's actually a very minor point, but since his name change is mentioned and since we're committed to accuracy, it is correct that we spell his original name Vajnshtejn. My quibble is with the explanation currently there. There needs instead to be a note that it would appear as Weinstein in German and is sometimes written that way when the German version of the transliterated name is quoted in English-language contexts. There, whew. Anybody have a shorter way of saying that? JackofOz 12:39, 27 November 2005 (UTC)


[edit] History revision

He is also a supporter of history revision, and of Fomenko's new chronology.

Does somebody have a source for this claim? At first glance it looks a bit crankish...--Robert Merkel 06:26, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Can you explain what history revision means?--Bryan 14:15, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

History Revision or "Revisionism", are clearly movements for reviewing history, specially the chronology of the events. Mr. Kasparov seems to be a supporter of a special group of revisionists, centered on this russian researcher called Fomenko. There are pages here in wikipedia explaining the thing, like New Chronology (Fomenko). The only reference we do have about Kasparov´s connection is an article by him in the official site. It seems like he also wrote a prefacee to a book on the subject, but I couldn´t find it in Amazon.
I believe that, if he is an open supporter of this movement, he is using his fame to attract attention to it. Nothing more fair then including a line about it in his wiki... -- NIC1138 15:02, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 2008 election

Where has Putin stated he wil change the constitution and run for the third consecutive term as the president of Russia? AFAIK he has repeatedly said he will not change the law and run for presidency. —mikko (speak) 10:09, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

It's stated in the December issue of the Atlantic Monthly that though he's denying that he will change the constituion that he's expected to do so. It says:
'Now Moscow is awash in rumors that in 2008 Putin may seek election to a third term- a move currently prohibited by the constitution, but easily arranged'.
The magazine doesn't give any source on this, so it's not very reliable. I guess we could reword the article to reflect that.(Bjorn Tipling 17:52, 24 December 2005 (UTC))

[edit] Category "Jewish chess player"

I've removed this category, because Kasparov is neither Jew by belief nor by ethnicty. According to Jewish religious laws, a child born to a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother (like in this case) is considered "non-Jewish". See Who is a Jew?:

  • "... According to Halakha (Jewish law and traditions), only a child born to a Jewish mother is counted as Jewish. A child with a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother is considered a non-Jew. Although an infant conversion might be contemplated in some circumstances (such as in the case of adopted children or children whose parents convert), children who convert would typically be asked if they want to remain Jewish after reaching religious adulthood, which is 12 years old for a girl, 13 for a boy. This standard is applied within Conservative and Orthodox Judaism. ..."

Tajik 10:37, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not run from an Orthodox Jewish pov. See this web site, which classifies him as Jewish, so we can and will.[3] 24.226.10.98 01:20, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
No it doesn't, it calls him half-Jewish, which is true, because his father was Jewish. I agree Wikipedia shouldn't be bound by the Orthodox Jewish POV, but it should follow the majority POV (or majority POVs if there are competing ones). According to the Wikipedia Who is a Jew? article (which I'm relying on because I've no idea otherwise), more liberal Judaism accepts someone as Jewish if they have one Jewish parent... AND consider themselves to be Jewish or have been raised Jewish. I'm happy to categorise Kasparov as Jewish if he himself considers himself Jewish, but as far as I am aware he does not. In summary, http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ is not enough evidence for me. To classify Kasparov as Jewish I'd like one of 2 things: either evidence a that a substantial portion of Judaism (not necessarily majority) consider one Jewish if one has a Jewish father, OR a statement by Kasparov that he considers himself Jewish. Rocksong 01:55, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Forget all the "rules", because A. it's original research to apply a definition to a person to decide what they are or are not (especially when there's disagreement on the definition), B. These are all religious rules anyway and have no application to ethnicity, which "Jewish" is, C. if you use the rules (which you can't anyway), you can not list anyone as Jewish on Wikipedia unless you have a family tree that tracks their background to the beginning of time. For all you know, they had a maternal ancestor 500 years back through the direct line who was not Jewish, therefore they aren't. So you can't theoretically list anyone as Jewish unless they have formally converted. (A good example is Adrien Brody, people ran around screaming how he was not Jewish because he had a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother. Well, recently it turned out his maternal grandmother was Jewish, too (she converted away, but that doesn't matter), so "suddenly" Brody is Jewish! See how random this all is? Also D. remove the Armenian category if you plan to remove the Jewish one. It certainly isn't fair and the sources say he is "half Jewish and half Armenian". I also don't see the problem with "half" (if a person is a "part time politician", you would include them in the politicians category, would you not?). Especially since the Jewish Virtually Library included him. Not to mention that a Jewish Chess Players Stamp collection included him[4]. In any case, please stop trying to use these rules on Wikipedia. 24.226.10.98 02:37, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
It's reading of widely available documents, not original research. The Jewish Library does NOT call him Jewish. It calls him half Jewish. Even the very definition at the http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/whojew1.html says, According to Reform Judaism, a person is a Jew if they were born to either a Jewish mother or a Jewish father. Also, Reform Judaism stresses the importance of being raised Jewish; if a child is born to Jewish parents and was not raised Jewish then the child is not considered Jewish. So, according to both Jewish virtual library and Wikipedia "Who is a Jew?" article, he's not Jewish, not according to ANY of the camps. Lots of people claim him as Jewish, e.g. that guy who wrote the book on chess stamps. But that's just one author's opinion. Analogies with "half Armenien" aren't helpful, because Judaism itself has set up this matrilineal descent thing, something Armenia doesn't do. But since you seem to feel strongly, I can't be bothered continuing this, though I'd be happier if you can show a substantial opinion (doesn't have to be majority) that Jewish father = Jewish, or if Kasparov considers himself Jewish. Rocksong 06:58, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Stop giving me definitions. You may not use these definitions unless they have been specifically applied to Kasparov. We have several sources that include him as "Jewish". That's all we need. There is absolutely no definition for the Jewish ethnicity, and it isn't relevant anyway. Wikipedia editors can't deduce who is or is not Jewish based on whatever standards they prefer. You can only report what reliable sources have said specifically on the person in question. Since we have a few of these sources that call him Jewish, we have no reason not to call him that pending sources that call him "not Jewish". As for the Armenian category, it needs a source that calls him "Armenian", btw, but I guess the "half Armenian" thing will suffice. 216.221.81.98 07:28, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Out of the many other sources i found, this one calls him a "Jewish Armenian", so I guess that OK's the Armenian category as well[5] 216.221.81.98 07:39, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Succession boxes

I retooled the succession boxes to be more accurate and representative of the "disputed" nature of the World Chess Championship. They used to look like this:

Preceded by:
Anatoly Karpov		 World Chess Champion
1985–1993		 Succeeded by:
Veselin Topalov (disputed)
Preceded by:
Anatoly Karpov		 FIDE world champion
1985–1993		 Succeeded by:
Anatoly Karpov
Preceded by:
(none)		 PCA World Chess Champion
1993–2000		 Succeeded by:
Vladimir Kramnik

Which seems to indicate that Kasparov held two titles simulatenously: the World Chess Champion and the FIDE Champion. The boxes make it look like the chess schism occured earlier than it actually did. This is not the case. The explanation at World Chess Championship#Chaos (1993 - ) is adequate for those unfamiliar with this. That box scheme reeks of revisionism. Fortunately, whoever added this box did not go back to all of the (undisputed) World Champions and added the FIDE box as well. This would be like going back and adding the Confederate States of America president box to all US Presidents before Lincoln. Additionally, Veselin Topalov, the current FIDA champion can in no way be thought to be Kasparov's successor. I replaced those boxes with this:

Preceded by:
Anatoly Karpov		 World Chess Champion
1985–1993		 Succeeded by:
Anatoly Karpov (FIDE Champion)
Vladimir Kramnik (PCA Champion)
Preceded by:
(none)		 PCA World Champion
1993–2000		 Succeeded by:
Vladimir Kramnik

Which I think adequately represents the fact that Kasparov has two "successors". I listed the FIDE Champion above the PCA Champion for no other reason than the fact that Kasparov remained the PCA Champion which he was not the FIDE Champion. Although I'd be open to an alternative proposal, I do think that whatever succession boxes we ultimately end up with need to emphasize Kasparov as the last "undipusted" champion. Again, read the explanation linked above if you need more information on this. savidan(talk) (e@) 12:49, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually Kramnik never became PCA champion, that would have been an impossibility because PCA folded before the match began. I have thus fixed the succession box. Dionyseus 02:03, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Your method is actually not an improvement. It makes it seem like Kasparov was champion for three separate time periods. If Kramnik gained a title with a different name, which I doubt, that should be noted parenthetically in both instances, but I would like to see a source if you wish to call him the Braingames champion, they were just the corporate sponsor. savidan(talk) (e@) 19:07, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Fine, here's one where Kramnik is referred to as Braingames World Champion [6] . This article refers to Kramnik as the new Braingames World Champion [7]. This article refers to Kramnik as the Braingames World Chess Champion [8]. This article refers to Kramnik as the Braingames World Champion [9]. This article refers to Kramnik as the Brain Games World Champion [10]. This other article refers to it as the Braingames title [11]. I feel that it is unnecessary to provide more sources and will restore the succession box to the more accurate version. Dionyseus 19:56, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Dionyseus, your revision of my edits creates the same problem Savidan mentioned: it makes it look like his post-1993 title appeared out of thin air. It also doesn't address the point that (in its supporters' eyes) the legitimacy of the title does not come from the sponsoring organisation, but the fact that Kasparov (and later Kramnik) claimed "lineage" to all the previous undisputed champions. In that sense "Classical" is a good a term as any to describe the title Kasparov held (and Kramnik now holds). I think we can agree that there are two claimed titles: FIDE, and the one Kasparov lost to Kramnik in 2000. Therefore, I submit that there should be only two rows in the box. I called the second row "Classical", applying Kramnik's name retrospectively. I'm open to other suggestions (e.g. "World Champion by defeating the previous world champion" but that's a bit long), but whatever it's called, it deserves to be a title in its own right. And it deserves to be a single title, because that's what its supporters call it. To its supporters (a significant proportion of chess fans, perhaps the majority) there is a world title which Kasparov won in 1985 and lost in 2000, and for NPOV that deserves to be mentioned. In short, I'm a bit annoyed at your edit and I'm tempted to just revert it back, but first I'd like to hear from other contributors. p.s. I'm pretty sure the box is wrong anyway, because PCA folded before 1999 and Braingames weren't around until 2000. Rocksong 00:28, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Actually Kasparov's 1993 title did pretty much appear out of thin air. He simply created the PCA and decided to hold his match outside the auspices of FIDE as if he can make all the rules. My succession box not only informs the reader that Karpov succeeded Kasparov as the FIDE Champion and that Kasparov became the PCA Champion, it also informs that the PCA later folded and was replaced by Braingames, and that Kramnik succeeded him. I see nothing wrong with the box as it is at the moment. Let the reader decide in their mind if they want to regard the PCA/Braingames title as "classical" or whatever they want, the fact is that the title was first called PCA World Champion, and when that organization folded it was replaced by Braingames World Champion. As for the dates, that is a small matter and can easily be modified if it is demonstrated to be incorrect. Dionyseus 00:36, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
The 1993 title didn't appear out of thin air. Kasparov was the undisputed World Champion at the time, and he forked the title which is not appearing out of thin air. FIDE and so-called "Classical" World Champion are the only titles recognized by the chess world at large. "Braingames Champion" is not worthy of a succession box. 165.189.91.148 15:53, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I've been away from this for a little while. This is what the succession box now looks like:

Preceded by:
Anatoly Karpov		 FIDE World Chess Champion
1985–1993		 Succeeded by:
Anatoly Karpov
Preceded by:
Anatoly Karpov		 "Classical" World Chess Champion
1985–2000		 Succeeded by:
Vladimir Kramnik

This is inaccurate because it makes it seem like the the "undisputed" World Chess Champions were always the FIDE line. More accurately, Kasparov was the last undisputed world chess champion and was suceeded by Karpov as the FIDE champion and then himself as the PCA champion. As the PCA champion, he was succeeded by Kramnik only with the title "Classical" champion because the PCA went under financially. Thus the following is appropriate savidan(talk) (e@) 21:34, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Preceded by:
Anatoly Karpov		 World Chess Champion
1985–1993		 Succeeded by:
Anatoly Karpov (FIDE champion)
Himself (PCA champion)
Preceded by:
none		 PCA World Chess Champion
1993–2000		 Succeeded by:
Vladimir Kramnik
("Classical" World Chess Champion)
Inaccurate. The PCA folded in 1996.Rocksong 04:39, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
What you say is true. However, the first match that Kasparov played after the PCA folded was in 2000. There's no reason that his title could change without playing a match. Thus, although Kramnik can't accurately be called the PCA champion, Kasparov was. savidan(talk) (e@) 04:41, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I think it's nonsense to talk of Kasparov as PCA champion until 2000 when there was no such organisation as the PCA after 1996. If you're going to redo the boxes, you'll have to come up with a better format. Otherwise I vote that they be reverted. Rocksong 04:52, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Rocksong is correct here, and I still believe my version of the box is the most accurate. In 1998 Kasparov was referred to as the WCC (World Chess Council) Champion. [12] . The 1998 Shirov-Kramnik qualifier match was held by the WCC. Braingames organized the 2000 match, it was called the Braingames World Championship, and Kramnik was referred to as the Braingames World Champion. [13] [14] [15] [16] Dionyseus 06:01, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Here's my box proposal:
Preceded by:
Anatoly Karpov		 (FIDE Champion)
1985–1993		 Succeeded by:
Anatoly Karpov (FIDE Champion)
Preceded by:
(none)		 PCA World Chess Champion
1993–2000		 Succeeded by:
(PCA folded due to financial reasons and was replaced by WCC in '98, and later Braingames in 2000)
Preceded by:
(none)		 Braingames World Chess Champion
2000–2000		 Succeeded by:
Vladimir Kramnik

I believe this is the most accurate box version. It can be made more accurate by including WCC 1998 time period, but the box is big enough as it is. Dionyseus 06:08, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

We've been through this before. The problem with Dionyseus' proposal is that it makes the PCA-WCC-Braingames-Classical championship look like two different championships (and to be consistent it should be 4), when in fact they are the same. Dionyseus may disagree, but that's not the point. There are essentially two points of view: one that FIDE holds the title, and one that the champion holds the title. For Wikipedia to present NPOV, it should present these two points of view: the FIDE POV (FIDE champion), and the "must-defeat-the-incumbent-to-become-champion" POV, which is now called "Classical" championship. Rocksong 07:43, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Well if one were to go by the "must-defeat-the-incumbent-to-become-champion" POV, the real champion is Fischer because he was never defeated in a match. If one were to go by that POV, a champion can take the title and keep it indefinitely by not defending it. Obviously that is the wrong approach, no one person should have ownership of the title, it should be owned by an organization that regulates and organizes fair qualifiers, and in the case of chess its FIDE. Dionyseus 08:01, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
You're welcome to disagree. But the fact is a large proportion of chess followers (possibly a majority, possibly not) regard the Kasparov-Kramnik title as the "real" world chess championship, while almost no one regards Fischer as the real champion. Wikipedia's job is not to settle the question. It is to present the majority viewpoint as the majority viewpoint. Where there are two competing majority viewpoints (as in the case of the world chess championship), I believe Wikipedia's job is to present both fairly. Rocksong 10:01, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Once again, you insist on reverting to a FIDE succession box for the undisputed World Chess Champion which has been rejected over and over on this talk page. If the only problem with my most recent version is that the PCA folded in 1996 then, simply call him the classical world chess champion consistently, and the link to the world chess champion article explains the various organizations which oversaw this title. Theres no need to mention the sponsors in the succession box. FIDE could be sponsored by McDonalds for all I care. Here is what I recommend: savidan(talk) (e@) 15:33, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Preceded by:
Anatoly Karpov		 World Chess Champion
1985–1993		 Succeeded by:
Anatoly Karpov (FIDE champion)
Himself ("Classical" champion)
Preceded by:
Himself
(World Chess Champion)		 "Classical" World Chess Champion
1993–2000		 Succeeded by:
Vladimir Kramnik
Your new box makes sense to me. It's small, and it avoids the PCA-WCC-Braingames problem. Dionyseus 22:05, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Someone seems to have changed it without discussion. I'm going to leave it at the above version unless there is consensus otherwise. savidan(talk) (e@) 00:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] IQ of 190?

I propose removing the claim that Kasparov "reportedly" has an IQ of 190. While there is no doubt that Kasparov is extremely intelligent, I've never seen the claim of IQ of 190 anywhere except here on Wikipedia. In the absence of some sort of evidence, I am more inclined to believe it is nothing but a rumour, so it should be removed. Rocksong 04:25, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I've seen it elsewhere, but it's almost always on disreputable pages that admit the IQs were "extrapolated" or "estimated" based on achievement. Same phenomenon on the Fischer page. I concur with the proposal to remove it unless we can find a reputable official source. See my previous criticisms on the Fischer talk page under the heading "Fischer's IQ." You will find that Kasparov is also listed. -- Solberg 09:56, 17 July 2006 (UTC)Solberg

We all know (don't we?) that chess performance after gaining a lot of experience is a much better indicator of intelligence anyway. justaname 20:54, 06 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Elo no longer highest ever?

The article on the Elo rating system claims Veselin Topalov has an Elo of 2813 as of July 2006, one point higher than Kasparov's 2812. freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ 08:23, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Topalov has exceeded Garry's final (2005) rating of 2812, but he is still way short of Garry's peak of 2851, achieved in 1999. Rocksong 01:43, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Ah, so he has! freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ 20:47, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kasparov is not a Jew

Kasparov cant be a Jew because is not a Jew by belief nor by ethnicty. According to the Jewish religion, only a child born to a Jewish mother is Jew. And since Kasparov his mother was Armenian and did that was a Azerbaijani jew that makes Kasparov a Azerbaijani-Armenian not Jewish-Armenian. This should be corrected out in the article. Baku87 19:02, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

He IS a Jew. Not by Halacha but his father is Jewish, and it's enough for wikipedia and other analysis even Israeli law (law of return). Amoruso 01:57, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Succession boxes

There are two alternatives:

Preceded by:
Anatoly Karpov		 World Chess Champion
1985–1993		 Succeeded by:
Anatoly Karpov (FIDE champion)
Preceded by:
New title		 Classical World Chess Champion
1993–2000		 Succeeded by:
Vladimir Kramnik

and:

Preceded by:
Anatoly Karpov		 World Chess Champion
1985–1993		 Succeeded by:
Anatoly Karpov (FIDE champion)
Himself ("Classical" champion)
Preceded by:
Himself
(World Chess Champion)		 "Classical" World Chess Champion
1993–2000		 Succeeded by:
Vladimir Kramnik

In my view the first version is tidier and more accurate. Views, please. BlueValour 01:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I like the 2nd. In the first row, it shows the split, which is important. Karpov did not succeed him as undisputed champion, he succeeded him as FIDE champion only. And, to its supporters, the "Classical" title was not new, which the second row shows. The first table is somewhat biased to the view that the FIDE title is legitimate while the Classical title was invented. But my objections to the 1st table are fairly mild. Rocksong 05:19, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vague comments on Rating

The introduction says, "Ranked first in the world a record 23 times between 1985 and 2006". What on earth does that mean? I thought ratings came out 4 times a year. If so, this figure it way too low. This statement is so vague (and uncited) that I propose removing it from the intro. Rocksong 02:58, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, I've removed the sentence. Rocksong 02:50, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] cleanup-verify

Why do we have this tag on the article? If something is in dispute we should have a cite tag by the problem comment so it can be fixed. I'm inclined to remove this general tag which is making the article look crappy. BlueValour 01:20, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

In the absence of any reason I have removed the tag. BlueValour 16:30, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Introduction

Ryan Delaney has reverted back to the old introduction. I think the old intro is poorer for the following reasons: 1. It fails to mention that he was the youngest ever (Classical) world champion, which is definitely one of Kasparov's greatest achievements. 2. It contains vague, uncited, and probably incorrect comments about his rating (see "Vague Comments on Rating" above). 3. It puts more emphasis on his rating than his world championship achievements. 4. It has a clumsy parentheses about his removal from the rating list. So I've tried to have another go at rewriting the introduction. If you disagree, please edit or discuss it here, rather than doing a wholesale revert. Rocksong 23:16, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fact checking regarding the claim "Karpov had been hospitalized several times" in 1984

In the section on the 1984 World Championship it reads "Karpov had lost 10 kg (22 lb) over the course of the match and had been hospitalized several times." I too have heard the claim of Karpov's hospitalization. I've also heard claims of Kasparov's hospitalization. I've heard claims of psychiatrists/psychologists who had to have special sessions with the players to prevent them from losing their minds during the event. After some research I am starting to come to the conclusion that many of these accounts are apocryphyl. I would like to hear from anybody who has sources that support the claim of either or both players being hospitalized. Thanks in advance. 71.57.161.254 22:15, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

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