Talk:Ganguro

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Most of Japanese youth does not consider "ganguro" to be face-black(顔-黒). "ganguro" means "extremely black"(ガン-黒). "gan"(ガン) is a slang, which means "extremely".

Contents

[edit] Ganguro is NOT an attempt to look black!!!

It’s a fashion that evolved out from a youth counter-culture against the perceived notion of "beauty" in Japanese media, which consisted of light skin and dark hair. Ganguro was created to counter-act this image, not to imitate African Americans. Please re-write the article.

Don't just complain, re-write it yourself. I admit this page is in pretty bad shape, due to the many dubious additions that many people have made to it. Also, please sign your comments here on the Talk page by typing ~~~~ at the end. adamrice 01:52, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WHAT THE HECK!?!, Part two

Okay, this is getting old. I'm getting tired of the list of ganguro-inspired anime characters being deleted. For the second time... STOP IT!!!

[edit] WHAT THE HECK!?!

Who the heck keeps removing the section on ganguro-inspired anime characters. I've even included a disclaimer about the subject, and STILL someone removed it! Well whoever it is... STOP IT!! The article belongs!!

[edit] don't exist

At risk of stirring the pot, I've deleted "they don't exist anymore." They do. Perhaps not as popular as a few years ago, but Shibuya is still crawling with them.

Really? I haven't been there for a few years, but I was watching a TV programme about high school girls in Shibuya last night, and I didn't see a single ganguro. As far as I know, ganguro are totally gone, along with their platform shoes and white lipstick. --DannyWilde 13:41, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
It's been about a year since I was there. When I was there, they were still much in evidence. The trend has transmogrified somewhat, and apparently the catchier name for them now is "まんば" (from やまんば, the nickname for more extreme ガングロ cases, taken from the name of kabuki "mountain witch" role). adamrice 14:11, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
I was in Shibuya this summer, and while there are less of them, I also concur that they're still there.--Fitret 21:29, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
They aren't just in Shibuya, either. They are also in Osaka's Amemura and right now many of them are sitting outside convenience stores all over the country. (^^)b Dekimasu 10:23, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] link to black face and race issues

I am thinking about taking out the reference link to "black face" being that this isnt relevent culturally to this Japanese culture issue? does anyone else agree? If you disagree please put this back in: (I removed it from the page because it seemed to not connect.) I removed:

I think the link in blackface to Ganguro should stay -- simply because it's an interesting twist on the whole notion of ethnic transformation via applied cosmetics. As far as linking the two articles from here to there -- that's another issue. But I think I'd leave it. I mean why not lead readers someplace unexpected? That's part of the fun of this venue. Peace. deeceevoice 15:40, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps the link to blackface should stay, but I think that in the first line we might consider translating the Japanese word into "dark" rather than "black". Are there any Japanese speakers to back me up on this? --Dpr 06:17, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
Nobody will back you up because "kuro" means nothing but "black". --DannyWilde 13:41, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
Live and learn. Thanks for setting me straight. --Dpr 13:34, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

You are right.American history has no relationship to Ganguro at all.I can say this because I am Japanese.Non of those girls(and pretty much of nation) knows about American history.And yes, each word of Ganguro can be translated to Black and face,but it has no connection to that subject of history.Junior wh 02:11, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Personally I agree with you, and you are certainly right that they are not girls who know about American history. However, the Japanese Wikipedia clearly states, "「ガンガン黒い」の略称が語源とされている（顔黒から来ているという説もある）。" Your related comment that it is based on anime characters is relevant in that those types of Japanese manga/anime characters are often considered to be racist portrayals of black people in America. Dekimasu 17:30, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What "Ganguro" stands for

I still think that "Ganguro" means "face-black." I am a little slow on taking up new vocaburary (even though I am a native Japanese speaker) but my feel to it is, and my quick search on web returned that "Gan" in this context means "face."

It's clear.--DannyWilde 13:41, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
I would just note that anytime one tans in Japanese the term used is "becoming black" (in romanization- kuroku narimasu) in the sense of your tan getting darker, not literally black. That what I always understood the term to mean as this subculture values tans.

[edit] bad smell

They really do smell because they don't take baths in order to preserve the makeup. Take a trip down to shibuya some time. Along with being hideous, a lot of these girls are also lazy, so they are not apt to spend the hours every day to put on the paint.

Does this not present any unwanted consequences for them--i.e. makes them less attractive to the opposite sex? --Dpr 06:15, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
In a big city, you are bound to find someone who has matching tastes.
There is also ogyaru. See the new page gyaru about this. --DannyWilde 13:41, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Scary

Downright scary. (Erlch.) deeceevoice 01:44, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Picture

This picture is not of "ganguro" at all, just some girls with tans. If you think these girls are ganguro, it would explain why people don't realise there are no ganguros any more. The ganguros were very darkly tanned. I looked at the link in the picture caption, and it says they're ganguro but hmm... I don't think so. Also, is this usage of the photo OK with copyright? --DannyWilde 09:19, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

  • Any girl with a measurable tan, bleached hair and neon clothes is considered ganguro, being literally "Black" isn't a requirement. the girls on the picture are exactly the kind of girls you will see on Egg Magazine for instance. I put this picture up to counter all the negativism I see surrounding this topic in Wikipedia, as I believe ganguro girls can also be beautiful. The Live Music Studio website doesn't claim any copyright on the pictures, so it's fine. cave 07:16, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
Just one tiny data point, but all of the Japanese people I've spoken to agreed that there are no "ganguro" any more. Have you asked any of these girls if they consider themselves ganguro? Maybe it would be good for your research. --DannyWilde 05:46, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
Ask people from Shibuya, the mecca of Ganguro fashion. Granted, they are not as widespread as in the year 2000, but there are still a few of them there. Altough they fall into the definition of ganguro, the term itself isn't used much amongst themselves, nowadays the most common term is "Manba" (Shortened from Yamanba), But if you refer to one of these girls as "Ganguro Gyaru" they won't deny it, just maybe look at you funny for using a "last week" expression. Maybe you are onto something, maybe the word has been falling out of style because the outrageously deep tans have fallen aswell (and ganguro literally means black face). Altough I have seen one girl in a dance video recently with a very deep tan, so we can't even call those dead either. There isn't a clear definition between Ganguro (or "mamba", or whatever they will call themselves next week) and Yamanba, some girls with very deep tans will think of themselves as Ganguro and not Yamanba, while some other girls with only light tans will be proud to call themselves Yamanba. But general consensus is that Yamamba are the outrageous ones, and Ganguro are the "tame" ones. The problem is that not everyone agrees on what's tame and what's outrageous ;) cave 07:16, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "american Ganguro community"

What is this? Are there any americans (or Americans) who identify themselves as ganguro? I smell a rat. adamrice 14:02, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

I've reverted recent edits by the user who cooked up this dubious phrase. adamrice 21:06, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
There is one; though not American-only. I'm a member. ;) [1] -- We're not as large as the non-Japanese Elegant Gothic Lolita community, but we exist. And get made fun of. :p Kyou 22:08, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

hahahahahahahahahahah sexy mucho

If I were Japanese, I would consider myself Ganguro. Seeing as I am not, I suppose I, too would fall into such a community. So, I suppose that should make me an American Ganguro? A rhetorical question, no one answer to that. By the way, no Ganguro should be made fun of, Kyou. Candy

[edit] GALS! Manga

Read the "GALS! Manga" section. This doesn't make any sense to a native English speaker. i can't even tell if this is vandalism or just wreally, wreally poowr Engrish. That's how bad it is. ike9898 04:09, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WHY is there a list of anime characters here?

I have not deleted anything from this page before (as the above editor complained about) but this basically does not belong in the article. It is a cultural phenomenon that is, like any other cultural phenomenon, bound to be portrayed on television, in books, and in pictures. The information adds nothing to the article. Did you add a list of "anime characters who wear kimonos"? Dekimasu 03:58, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I am not the one who posted it,but it is main subject of Ganguro.Since Animation is what Ganguro is about.Right now article contains misconception about what they are(Which makes me laugh a bit as Japanese..) Cute Afirican charactor of Anime is what Ganguro girls wants to be.So it is very much related photo it was I guess.Junior wh 02:21, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed popular culture section

The section has been bothering me for quite a while. I note that (from Wikipedia_talk:Trivia):

That should be required reading for anyone participating in this debate. What's said there about Marduk could apply to just about any other article about a deity or other mythological figure:

  • Osiris: "In the movie Hedwig and the Angry Inch, Hedwig's song "Origin of Love" mentions Osiris";
  • Apollo: "The original classic 1978 Battlestar Galactia series. The main character of the show was called Apollo. Who was an ace Viper pilot (space fighter planes seen throughout the series) and the Captain and strike leader of Galactica's Blue Squadron."
  • Quetzalcoatl: "In the computer game Rise of Legends, there is a playable race called Cuotl. There are also air units in this race's army called 'Quetzals'."
Etc, etc, etc, by way of Kokopelli, Ozymandias, Sigurd, King Arthur... (the list goes on). Adopting the Marduk solution (wiping it all off and depositing it on Marduk in popular culture) as general practice would enable such articles to give a much better impression (seriousness, rigor, perspective) than they do at the moment. Bolivian Unicyclist 12:24, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
It's a tenable solution. But, then, this is an encyclopedia, not an indiscriminate collection of information. I think editors are perfectly within their rights to delete random trivia factoids on sight. And I'd caution against avoiding "popular culture" sections altogether; these can be nice additions to articles, provided they are well written, academically sound, and analytical rather than exhaustive. I'm currently reading a book on Jeki la Njambè (sadly, we have no article yet), an oral epic of the Duala people of Cameroon, and the author devotes quite a few pages to interpretations in Cameroonian popular culture. So I guess I'm trying to say: If you've got something intelligent to say about Fujin in popular culture, say it. If all you have is the fact that a character in Final Fantasy VIII is named Fujin, keep it to yourself or put it in the Fujin (Final Fantasy character) article. But ghettoizing these sections to X in popular culture is akin to sweeping the dust under the rug. — BrianSmithson 13:04, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

These references do not add to anyone's understanding of the ganguro phenomenon, and we should not forget that the fact that a reference is interesting doesn't make it notable or encyclopedic. With this in mind, I am removing the popular culture section of this article. Dekimasu 07:45, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] insert negative reacion

Although I agree with the above, I've noticed that the former section's trivia all implied the same thing: ganguro are often looked down upon by other Japanese due to what is associated with ganguro lifestyle. Perhaps someone should insert that somewhere in the main text.


[edit] Yamanba

I agree with the move to merge the Yamanba article into the Ganguro one. It seems to be just an extreme version of the same trend. -Timzor 18:17, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. 64.121.35.146

Agreed. adamrice 18:13, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed/Neutral. cave 18:23, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Might as well edit it now, with all this support. 130.212.214.65 20:00, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Agree --Fitret 21:29, 28 November 2006 (UTC)


I agree as well --User:Graver's Paradise

Agreed. PratzStrike 07:58, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree. --Chuck チャック 16:01, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I intend to finish the yamanba-ganguro merge soon and I will attempt to clean up misunderstandings within this article as well. I don't mean to sound rude, but I would like to ask that editors rigorously source their additions to this article. Most of the problems here seem to have come from OR additions by editors without direct experience of Japanese society. Dekimasu 17:55, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Userbox

I have removed the "Japanese subcultures" infobox for the second time in a few months, so I will give my reasoning here. The same reasoning could just as easily be applied to the other articles in the infobox, although I am not active in editing any of them.

  • Since subcultures are by their very nature independent of one another, adding the names of other Japanese subcultures to the ganguro article does not add any useful information about ganguro to the article.
  • The article is already categorized as a Japanese subculture, so people can already find the other subcultures by clicking the link at the bottom.
  • This type of box, as a template, usually goes at the bottom of the page (the only exceptions I can think of are articles related to religion, which often have links down the side of the page written in small, inobtrusive text).

Dekimasu 03:43, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe the infoboxes are quite useful indeed, and regret you deleted it. The categorizing at the bottom does have the same information in fact, but the presentation in the box makes it much clearer to present the panoply of "subcultures". I intend to restore the infobox (which should also be recoded in proper infobox and not userbox code), but will leave the matter to rest for a few days just now. LHOON 06:28, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I still believe my first point is very relevant; there is no connection (in prevalence, prominence, or ideology) between a "Gothic Lolita" and a ganguro girl. I don't think I would have reacted as negatively to the infobox if it was at the bottom of the page. For it to be on the upper right, I think it needs to add informational value to the article. Take Junichiro Koizumi, for example: information on the man in the upper right, and a template list of prime ministers of Japan at the bottom. Dekimasu 17:21, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I will change the boxes to bottom boxes if I have time the next few days. LHOON 22:01, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
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