Talk:Günter Grass

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Contents 1 Early edits 2 Link cleanup 3 Member of the Waffen-SS 4 Use of "conscription" 5 Controversy? 6 SS 1944 7 Serving "As a Nazi" 8 The little matter of the oath 9 Balance? 10 Das Question 11 Grass Ratzinger 12 Kashubian 13 Tin Moralist, Wall Street Journal, 16 August 2006, A10 14 Grass's admission 15 Trivial facts in introduction 16 Political stance 17 Wig? 18 Grass's service 1944-1945 19 Kurski 20 Absurd Turn 21 Drive-by NOV tagging 22 Grass's statement 23 An opinion 24 Enough! 25 Pointless

[edit] Early edits

Moved from Guenter Grass and fixed links on 7 pages that link to Günter Grass

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Danzig, Poland in 1927? I don't want to be H.Jonat, but I don't thing that was Poland then, but Germany. Gunter Grass is a well known German writer.

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Please compare Gdansk.
S.

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Is it really Bremen? I am rather sure that Lübeck has just opened a Günter Grass House. I'll try to check it. Any comments?

checked it- these are two separate organisations.Kosebamse 13:51 Feb 9, 2003 (UTC)

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It seems strange to describe Grass as a "Kashubian-German." True, his hometown was transferred from Germany to Poland in 1945 and all the surviving Germans were expelled, including him, to be replaced by Poles. But Grass is a German writer, always has lived in Germany except for the first 12 years of his life, when Danzig was not politically part of Germany (though inhabited by Germans -- 96%), and always has written in German. Besides, few people in the English-speaking world have heard of Kashubia, though Kashubians do appear in some of his novels. Essentially he is a German writer.

User:sca

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I want to know where you have find the classification of Grass as writer of "Geschichtsaufarbeitung" and what are the other novels that fit in this scheme (Im Krebsgang fits thats right) - but I'm not sure if the others do? Thanks!

I'm not sure if I understand your question, but if you are asking which of Grass' works can be characterized as geschichtsaufarbeitung, I would say that The Tin Drum and Headbirths are both prime examples. I have not read too many of his other works, so I can't speak to works other than those. --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 20:05, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)

Does he really take a controversial point or is it common sense? Krebsgang caused a debate in Germany. I think in Tin Drum there is only the historical background and not a way to give new "ideals" or accusations for the german people (it sound to pathetic - my English is to bad).

[edit] Link cleanup

The Schleswig-Holstein museum's collection doesn't show up for me; it shows me a list of pictures saying "Picture Restricted by Copyright Owner". I've taken this out for now — do I need to do something special to get it to work? --Mgreenbe 14:35, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

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I've taken out the link to rasscass, as it's (1) in German and (2) the German biography we have has fewer ads. The Gunter Grass/Tom Rosenthal interview link is dead and a cursory Google search couldn't re-find it. --Mgreenbe 14:35, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

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Missing from the bibliography is the 2002 novel Too Far Afield. See amazon.com. There may be others, I just know that this one has been taunting me from the unread portion of my bookshelf since it came out in paperback.

[edit] Member of the Waffen-SS

Günther Grass recently stated that he was a member of the Waffen-SS. Source: http://www.faz.net/s/Rub117C535CDF414415BB243B181B8B60AE/Doc~ED1E99E51572441E696FB0443CA308A56~ATpl~Ecommon~Scontent.html AchtungAchtung 16:31, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Gunter Grass was a member of the Waffen-SS which was Adolf Hitler's elite Nazi troops. The organization was convicted of war crimes, etc. So, yes the article should have the words Nazi and Hitler in it. Please stop removing sourced, factual information simply because you don't want it in. There has to be a better argument than: "I don't want it in." That is not good enough. If someone has been running around for most of his life blasting the American way of life and he fought with and defended the Nazi and then did not disclose it for most of his life then it meets the level notability to be included in the article. Also, don't call my comments or edits childish. Your name calling is not acceptable and it violates Wikipedia policy: Wikipedia:No personal attacks. AchtungAchtung, please review that policy and try to follow it. --Getaway 22:21, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Look, there's an article about the Waffen-SS on Wikipedia. There's no need to discuss what the Waffen-SS excactly was in this article. To say the Waffen-SS was "an elite Nazi troop" is still lurid and additionally partly incorrect. Last but not least your edit destroys the structure of the sentence and you write Waffen-SS incorrectly. AchtungAchtung 22:35, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Once again, many people do not know what the Waffen-SS is and its association with the Nazis. Everyone knows what the Nazis are and were. The information is sourced, cited and factual. Now, you have a personal reason to remove the information, but that is not way the process works.--Getaway 22:57, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

If someone doesn't know what the Waffen-SS is, he should read the article about it. FYI, Grass never denied that he was a soldier during WW2 (of course on Germany's side), so there is nothing new, that he "defended the Nazis". Furthermore, the sentence as it is now is still wrong, since it suggests that there was only one Waffen-SS division, and that leads me to believe that you don't know much about the topic at all. AchtungAchtung 23:02, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Let's see. I asked you not to engage in personal attacks. You just did it again. Please stop. Also, you have not given a substantive reason why the word Nazi should not be in the article. You have engaged in personal attacks toward me. Also, there is new information. We now know that he was in the SS. Also, that does NOT in anyway speak to the issue of notability. This is information that needs to be in the article because he has choosen to conceal his participation in the SS his whole life. He also has attacked the actions of the U.S., but we now know that he VOLUNTEERED for SS service. It is significant and notable. You have not given a reason on why it is not. If was not significant and notable then why did he go out of his way to conceal for his whole life??? Also, why are attempted to censor that information from the article if it is not a big deal, as your argument basically comes down to??? The answer is simple. He knew that it was significant and notable information, he also knew that if was generally known in the population he would not have been taken as seriously as a writer and as a political activist. So he concealed it. By the same token, you have some reason that you want it out of the article. I don't know what that is, but I do know that you have not given a reason on why it is not significant or notable. His comments about peace and his criticism of the U.S. foreign policy would not have been taken so seriously for all of these years if this information had come out earlier in his life. His so-called concern about peace and war would not have had the same effect when it comes from a Nazi. --Getaway 23:23, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Please, Getaway, calm down a bit... As you can see on the discussion page, it was me who mentioned at first, that Grass stated, that he was a Waffen-SS soldier. So, it's kind of absurd to accuse me of wanting to prevent that from being mentioned in the article. But on the other hand, at first, you called Grass a Nazi and you wanted to continue with that and now, you just want that the word Nazi is included in the article. So you kind of changed your whole plan a long the way... So, I still don't support this formulation, it's kind of redundant to call the Waffen-SS "Nazi Waffen-SS", since there was only one Waffen-SS. AchtungAchtung 23:39, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I changed the formulation, if you will, in response to the changes and objection that I received from you and the other fellow. Yes, one of my versions was, as you pointed out, grammatically incorrect so I tried to change it. You point out that you thought one of my versions was "lurid." I don't agree, but I was trying to make adjustments. (By the way, the so-called "lurid" version quoted the article from the Reuters word for word, so if the wording is, as you say "lurid" then blame the folks at Reuters, who doctor photographs of the Iraq War and try to pass them off as real photojournalism.) So, I have decided to just focus on the word Nazi. Why? Well, there is no need to mention Hitler if you mention Nazi. You think of one when you think of the other. However, many, many people do not know what the Waffen-SS is. One goal of good writing is to make point and discussion clear for the reader. I think that the word Nazi needs to included for the reasons that I gave above. Also, Waffen-SS does not mean squat to the average joe, but the word Nazi means a lot. So I believe the word Nazi, without any references to Adolph Hitler, etc. is an acceptable compromise. --Getaway 00:08, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

(Reset indent). I think there's need for a bit of nuance here. Grass - to his credit - has acknowledged his former membership in the Waffen SS, and nobody could question his anti-Nazi sentiments for several decades. I don't think we should hide his former membership, nor the unspeakable nature of the Waffen-SS; but let's not make him to be of the same cloth as Adolf Eichmann, either. --Leifern 00:27, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. He is not on the level of Hitler, Eichmann, Göring, etc., but he has been attacking the Nazis his whole life AND he has been comparing U.S. foreign policy to the Nazi and Republicans to Nazis, etc. If that is not the epitome of hypocritical then I don't know what is. --Getaway 00:34, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

On the other hand, one might argue "it takes one to know one." At any rate, I think a link to the SS is sufficient. If folks want more information about the SS, they can click the link. His membership is significant and should be included in this article since it clearly affected (inspired, motivated, etc.) his life and his art. Rklawton 05:26, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Gunther Grass was in German 10th Panzer Division. He joined in 1944, when that division was already basically disbanded. He never saw any battles nor any atrocities. See [[1]]. And, like the Waffen SS page says, most of its units were just a regular military, forcefully drafted youths. DLX 11:58, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

No, 10 Panzer was Wehrmacht. Grass was in 10th SS Panzer Division Frundsberg. Leibniz 12:43, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, my bad... too little coffee. DLX 12:46, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Getaway, it's not our job to say whether Grass was hypocritical or not. We have to maintain a NPOV and the word "Nazi Waffen-SS" is definitely POV, because that's not the official name of that organisation and it is supposed to lead the opinion of the reader in a certain direction. It would be acceptable to mention that the Waffen-SS was an organisation of the Third Reich or even of Nazi Germany but to call it Nazi Waffen-SS is not NPOV and not encyclopedic. AchtungAchtung 12:38, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Did I attempt to point out his hypocritical attitude in the actual article?? No. So that is not a valid point. I only pointed out his hypocritical attitude on this the talk page. I did not attempt to force that into the article, so once again, your point is off target. Now, there are many, many newspaper articles that refer to the "Nazi Waffen-SS" and that is their words not mine. You are criticizing my use of their terms because for some reason you feel compelled to defend the guy and you cannot get their attention, only mine. Why you feel the need to defend him I don't know. However, as you point out a reference to the Third Reich or Nazi Germany is appropriate and I will add that to the article. --Getaway 14:21, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Also, AchtungAchtung, let's revisit some of your earlier comments. Not the ones where you were personally attacking me, but specifically the one where you stated that my edit to the article was "lurid." You perceived the edit as "lurid" for some reason or another, presumably because you have a high regard for Grass and you have now learned that he has not been completely honest with his past, even though he has made a career out of criticizing others for their past. I think Mr. Grass' actions, over his entire adult lifetime, have been a classic case of projection. Now, as Mr. Grass pointed out himself the attempt to argue that the Waffen-SS is somehow not a Nazi organization is symptom of another form of human coping called denial. I think what we have here with this particular Wikipedia article is example of what Mr. Grass would have called denial. He was a Nazi (even though he was not Hitler) and most of the editors of this page just love him and they just can't call him what he is: a Nazi. You have stated that my edits were "lurid" but we learned from the BBC article that words that used in my original edit were taken from a Reuters article, which, in turn, was quoting Mr. Grass himself. I quote from the BBC article, "Hitler's elite Waffen-SS". Once again, these are the words of the BBC, not me. However, you are attacking the messenger.--Getaway 14:39, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Now it is you who is engaging in personal attacks. I am defending the principle of NPOV and nothing else. And BTW, the fact, that some newspaper uses a certain term does in no way prove that this term is appropriate or suited for an encyclopedia. AchtungAchtung 14:32, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Where is the personal attack?? I'm pointing out merely what you stated.--Getaway 14:40, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Getaway, you are repeating yourself. Just because he was a member of the Waffen-SS does not make him a Nazi. And again, to the press articles: I just read one in which they said "Grass was member of the SS" abd that's absolutely misleading, since there is a huge difference between the Allgemeine SS and the Waffen-SS. I hope, that you can see, that it's not an argument to say "But the press said that, too". And your personal attacks are all these assumptions about what kind of an opinion I might have about Grass. I didn't say anything abouth what I think of him, so please stop your speculations about that. AchtungAchtung 14:47, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Just like Mr. Grass himself you won't be able to cover up his Nazi past forever. There will be article after article next week, by respected writers all over the world, comparing Mr. Grass' Nazi past and Mr. Grass' sanctimous lectures over the years. These comparison will come and they will be important and notable, rolling over the attempts of editors of this page to cover up and make nice his past. There are many, many holes in his story now and those that he exploited over the years, by unfairly calling Nazi, will demand answers to his secret past. Its coming.--Getaway 20:11, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

(The Simpsons, 1993) Homer (to Marge): I can finally look down my nose at you. You have a gambling problem! … Remember when I got caught stealing all those watches from Sears? Well, that's nothing, because you have a gambling problem! And remember when I let that escaped lunatic in the house 'cause he was dressed like Santa Claus? Well you have a gambling problem!

(Wikipedia, 2006) Getaway (to Grass): Remember when [insert random example of U.S. foreign policy]? Well, that's nothing, because you were in the Waffen-SS!

Enjoy your brief moment of Schadenfreude. Vilĉjo 22:39, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Good Point, way to defend the Nazi. Enuff said.--Getaway 02:01, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

What is it, that is covered up, dear Getaway? And don't forget: No personal attacks, huh...--AchtungAchtung 22:27, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Not a problem, considering that I have not engaged in any personal attacks as you have. --Getaway 02:05, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Maybe it's better, if we don't continue this discussion. Auf Wiedersehen. AchtungAchtung 13:10, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Use of "conscription"

Given that he volunteered for the army, is it accurate to say that he was conscripted, even if he hadn't wanted to join the SS forces in particular? Andjam 13:01, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

The statements he made so far seem a bit vague about what he intended to volunteer for. I hope it will become clearer. Leibniz 13:05, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

From [2]: "Als Fünfzehnjähriger hatte er sich noch als Hitlerjunge freiwillig zu den U-Booten gemeldet, mit siebzehn wurde Grass einberufen und kam vom Arbeitsdienst zur Division „Frundsberg“, die zur Waffen-SS gehörte." But he also mentioned that the gung-ho reputation of the Waffen-SS was attractive to him. Leibniz 13:29, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, the way the last section is currently presented in the article, there appears to be some conflict. The article quotes him as saying he got a "call-up" notice meaning he was drafted and did not volunteer. W.C. 15:36, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

He volunteered for the U-Boats and the Wehrmacht, that much is clear. Whether the "call-up" (Einberufungsbefehl) meant he had also expressed a preference for the Waffen-SS or not is not clear. Leibniz 16:17, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, he volunteered for military service, but (as far as we know from the reports) not for the Waffen SS in particular. Henry^Flower 15:53, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Where's actually the relevance of the cited excerpt from the Spiegel interview? I mean - is there any significance in the cited guy's statement? e_l_ --195.212.29.67 14:46, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

If you mean Joachim Fest by "the cited guy", he is an authority on the Third Reich and so his views are notable. Incidentally, in the same interview he also said one could get drafted against one's will into the Waffen-SS; it happened to some of his friends who did not join the Wehrmacht quickly enough. Leibniz

Thanks for your notable hint - I had read the corresponding interview with Mr. Fest myself. Still I don't see the citation's relevance in this case. Just because somebody is an authority for questions concerning the Third Reich, that doesn't necessarily mean he is an authority concerning Günter Grass and his life, does it? I mean, there are literally hundreds of authorities out there concerning WWII, the Nazis and the Third Reich, and I just can't see why the selected citation should have more weight in an article which is about GG - and NOT about the Third Reich, the Nazis or WWII. The same actually also counts for the quoted Mr. Kurski and Hochhuth. And before you now blame me for being some kind of supporter of GG or the like: I do not think so. This question is about what to add to an article, but not about GG or his behaviour. e_l_--195.212.29.67 11:26, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Whatever. Why don't you take it out and have fun in the resulting POV pissing contest. Leibniz 12:00, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Or better yet, if you think the article is imbalance, why don't you spend some time adding to the article about Mr. Grass' writing. Why do feel the need to censor valid, sourced information from an appropriate source, the man's biographer for goodness sake??? Look the article is somewhat short for someone that won the Nobel Prize for Lit. If you want to creat balance add to the article, don't censor it. That's not fair. You are welcome to add, why do you feel the need to subtract?? The man has held himself up as a paragon of truth and virtue for 60 years and he was lying about his role in WWII, that is a notable fact and I going to keep it in. Just go add to the article concerning other aspects of his life, you are welcome to it. --Getaway 12:05, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Did I somewhere state that I think that this article is not balanced? You must have misinterpreted my statement. If I want to know something about producing sausages, well, I do not ask a professor of Sanskrit but rather a butcher, right? And if I want to know something about GG's life, why then should I ask the cited guys? One of them is an expert on the Third Reich, another is some kind of Polish politician and so on. Why should they be qualified for answering questions about GG? My statement is not that this article might or might not be out of balance, but my statement is that these are the wrong guys to ask about GG's life. I see this mixing of concerns all over Wikipedia being done again and again as soon as it comes to certain personalities. e_l_--195.212.29.67 13:24, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

In response to 195.212.29.67, I tend to agree with your comment about Wikipedia as a whole. There are people that are NOT lawyers writing articles on the U.S. Federal rules that pertain to torture. There are people that are NOT microbiologists, but rather cooks, store clerks, etc. writing comments about what is a pluripotent stem cell and what its characteristics are and aren't. This a real problem with Wikipedia. There are also cultural differences between the various editors and what they consider notable and non-notable. I've now learned that what is considered a Nazi in Kansas and what is considered a Nazi in Germany are two very diffferent things. This can be a good thing or it can be bad thing. Either way, it is a difficult thing because some things are just not a matter of opinion. Who do you think should be quoted in relation to Grass?? Much of the debate is taking place in German and I can only read the comments that happen to be translated into English. Of the folks that I have read, Fest seems to be the best source. Why? Well, he supposedly wrote a biography of Grass and he supposedly had access to Grass for that biography and Grass did not disclosed the Waffen-SS thing during those discussions. I personally believe that Fest has summed up the feelings of what most people find wrong about Grass' disclosure. There is a different quote from Fest that I was going to substitute because I'm totally sure that the one quoted is entirely perfect. But for the most part, it does sum up the issues. I don't believe the concensus believes that a 17 year old boy choosing military service is necessarily something to be condemned for; however, I believe that many, many people find the fact that Grass concealed his service in the Waffen-SS for 60 years while he walked around the country holding himself out as a moral authority over everyone (and not just Germans, but also Americans, Brits, etc.) as if he is freaking Jesus Christ himself--that is why this disclosure is notable and needs to be mentioned in the article.--Getaway 13:55, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

If reality is permitted to intrude for a second: Michael Jürgs is Grass's biographer, Fest is Hitler's. Or are they the same in Kansas? Leibniz 14:03, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

All of those comments and that is all you have to say? Great analysis. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Getaway (talk • contribs).

Since that was the only substantive point you made in your preceding contribution, and it was wrong, Leibniz was quite right to confine his response to that point rather than the surrounding verbiage. So, is there any good reason to retain that (or any other) quote from Fest – does it add anything authoritative on the specific issue it is addressing? Vilĉjo 15:19, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

No. There was another substantive point: Most of the comment on Grass' disclosure is about the length of time it took for him (Grass) to reveal it and Grass' finger-wagging. Now, if Fest is not the right person to relate that concern, which I have not heard an argument that he isn't, then who is that person, because that concern is a legitamite, notable concern, and should be part of the article--all substantive points about the article. --Getaway 15:37, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

So - why not cite Michael Jürgs in place of Fest? As GG's biographer he should indeed be better suited to answer questions about GG's life. I checked Jürg's Wikipedia-article and there it says: "In diesem Zusammenhang erklärte er dem Berliner Tagesspiegel zum Fall Grass in der Waffen-SS: Er sei persönlich enttäuscht von Günter Grass und es handele sich „um das Ende einer moralischen Instanz"." Here's my suggestion: If you can't live with having no other person's oppinion on GG and the Waffen-SS in this article, then you should rather cite this guy instead of Fest or Kurski. (Sorry, I don't have the corresponding article in the Berliner Tagesspiegel.) e_l_--195.212.29.75 07:25, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

This may sound shocking, but you could stop complaining and improve the article. Leibniz 10:47, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

The Jürgs quote is already in the article. Henry^Flower 10:51, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. The "end of a moral institution" is the very first quote I put in. Henry^Flower then added that it was, significantly, Grass's biographer who said it. Now, we could do with a better source and more context for the quote, since at present it comes from a grab-bag of statements by various people. Leibniz 11:11, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Controversy?

It would be nice to have references to the particular commentators mentioned, who are presumably the basis for the 'controversy' heading. The CNN report referenced doesn't mention them, or any controversy. Henry^Flower 15:53, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, CNN is a tad superficial and will forget about it the second the next US showbiz scandal comes along... It's all over the German press. Leibniz 16:03, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I changed the headline from "controversy" to "admission of SS membership" because as of now there has not been alot of controversy the main focus has been the admission its self. Perhaps later there will be more controversy and then the title can be changed back Joel s 16:07, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. But it's brewing already. Leibniz 16:10, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Although it is easily lost in the general hysteria here, the real controversy is not so much over what Grass did as a 17-year old conscript, but his lifelong eagerness to sit in judgement over others. Leibniz 20:04, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] SS 1944

Hier von der gestrigen deutschen Wikipedia-Diskussionsseite [[3]], drei Hinweise, Grass´ spätes Bekenntnis zur Waffen-SS-Mitgliedschaft betreffend:

-> Die Frage: "Kann er es beweisen" erscheint nur auf den ersten Blick absurd...er wird´s nach dem was er selbst sagt im FAZ-Druck-Interview nicht beweisen können. Höchstinteressant sind sowohl seine beiden Rückbezüge auf v. Schirarch´s Verteidigungsrede am 31. Aug. 1946 als auch und vor allem sein erneutes Schweigen, warum, wie, wo und wann er denn in US-Gefangenschaft gekommen sein will...Selbstverständlich war seine Standard-Vita-Formel: 1944 "Flakhelfer" gelogen...was nichts daran ändert, daß Grass ein professionell-sprachmächtiger Berufsautor ist, der den begehrten NPL erhielt..., aber moralisch und politisch ?

-> ´Nicht die Tatsachen, sondern die Meinungen, welche wir über Tatsachen haben, bestimmen unsere Handlungen´ (Alexander von Humboldt) – das Thomas-Theorem scheint auch hier zu gelten: jeder stud. hist. sollte inzwischen wissen, daß "aus Gründen" kein SS-Mann 1944/45 "den Russen in die Hände fallen" wollte. Das Wichtigste am FAZ-Grass-Interview könnte in diesem Sinn das sein, was er "aus Gründen" nicht sagt, folglich verschweigt. Andrerseits: Selbst wenn Grass, was er weder ist noch wird, öffentlich angeklagt würde, muß er sich nicht selbst belasten, darf also schweigen; und auch lügen an sich ist nicht strafbar, "nur" moralisch verwerflich

-> Herr Grass, immerhin kein X-beliebiger Medienpiffer, sondern LNP-Träger 1999, "rückt nicht mit der Wahrheit heraus" im FAZ-Interview 12. August.2006, denn auch in diesem - bitte lesen Sie genau - sind viele Leerstellen, d.h. Grass verschweigt vieles. - Im übrigen hat es ebenso in der Nachkriegs-SPD eine Nazifraktion gegeben wie im "Spiegel" eine SS-SD-Intellektuellengruppe...

MvS, Bonn, 120806

Speculation, POV and irrelevant. As if we needed to be donated rants over here, thank you very much. Leibniz 20:01, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, Dr.phil. Leibnitz, I don´t understand why you´re proclaiming that German triple as irrelevant "donated rants" or, plainly, rubbish talk;-), please, have a look on that documents as published by German weekly "Der Spiegel" (Aug. 15th, 2006): [[4]] demonstrating that Günter Grass, in fact, was a member of the SS ("Waffen-SS"), in 1944/45. Please, realize, that Grass got, in 1999, that p.N.l. because he painted the very forgotten face of contemporary history in as fresh as black colours when telling his story ("in munterschwarzen Fabeln das vergessene Gesicht der Geschichte gezeichnet"), and think it over what both hard-core facts whenever connected could mean, sincerely, M./Aug. 16, 2006

[edit] Serving "As a Nazi"

I noticed that there was a dispute above over the phrasing of the description of Grass admitting to have "been a Nazi". I'm a little unclear on the details of the dispute, but it looks as if it was over whether he served "as a Nazi" in the Waffen SS. I don't think that this is necessarily the case any more than being in the Navy or other armed forces in the US means that one is serving "as a Republican" in the Navy. Allowing the two ideas to conflate is a mistake and almost certainly trying to put POV in the article. --Akhonji 13:36, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Hm, I wouldn't be surprised if you will be rewarded with a long rant for that statement. Leibniz 15:20, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I've been the subjects of several long, confused rants today already, I don't see how one more would hurt. The fact of the matter is that people are all too ready to immediately condemn anyone associated with the German military, whether they did or didn't have anything to do with Nazi atrocities, just because it's so much easier to listen to old propaganda condemning German soldiers as "the Hun" and so forth, and cast a blanket judgement over anyone who was associated with the wrong side. --Akhonji 18:03, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

If you are referring to the comments that I made on your talk page, let me go over the facts once again. AchtungAchtung called my edits, well, "childish." And I pointed out him that his comments are violations of the Wikipedia policy, they are against the rule No Personal Attacks. See Wikipedia:No personal attacks. I told AchtungAchtung to stop engaging in personal attacks and I am now telling you again, do not encourage AchtungAchtung or any other editors to engage in personal attacks. Above, you stated, "condemn anyone associated with the German military, whether they did or didn't have anything to do with Nazi atrocities," but you refuse to point out that Mr. Grass brought these condemnations upon himself because he has been a lying, blowhard left-wing weasel for 60 years. As I pointed out to AchtungAchtung, Mr. Grass is a classic example of projection. He points his finger at everyone else in the world and condemns their actions, but he just could not seem to be honest about his Waffen-SS past, as matter of fact he had to lie about it for 60 years. What a hypocrite!!! Voice for a Generation, my arse. If you are confused about what I just stated let me say it again. Voice for a Generation, my arse. Also, don't encourage AchtungAchtung to engage in personal attacks. Any questions?? Also, as for your analogy on this page. I understand your comparison between Republicans and U.S. enlisted Army men, but do you really believe that this left-wing blowhard who has been lying about his service in the Waffen-SS for 61 years is really telling you the whole story?? Why do you believe him without question? He has not earned the benefit of the doubt. Why? How about the FACT that he has out and out lied about the Waffen SS service for over 60 freaking years??? No I don't give him the benefit of the doubt. Deal with it. --Getaway 18:40, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I would say that you are the one that did the personal attacks. And if you don't give him the benefit of doubt, I would request that you stop editing this article. Your personal opinions have no place in this article - or Wikipedia in general. There are no facts of him being a member of National Socialist German Workers Party (aka Nazi), nor there are any indications that he was involved in any war atrocities. At worst, there was a 17yo boy who was drafted in military and then assigned to the Waffen SS. That does not make him Nazi or a war criminal. As for the being quiet... hmm, he was a part of the losing army and there are way too many people like who would gladly stamp every German Nazi and have them shot on spot. So please keep to NPOV or don't edit this article. DLX 19:42, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, well, well. Another comment on my editing without the benefit of pointing to anything that I have done wrong. I have not engaged in any personal attacks. If I did please show me in the edit history, where I did, otherwise, please leave that off the table. Next, every single person has personal opinions just like you do. You just expresed some. However, I am honest in my opinion of Grass being a left-wing, blowhard. And unlike Mr. Grass I did not wait 60 years to call him one. Now, you are putting words in my mouth (let me point it out to you: "there are way too many people like who (sic) would gladly stamp every German Nazi and have them shot on spot". I never said that, that is simply your imagination. I guess you needed to make up words, put them in my mouth, so that you would have something to santimously condemn, as your hero Mr. Grass did for all those years. Even if Mr. Grass is a Nazi, I don't want him shot, that notion is just your wild, uncontolled imagination. I just want to call him what he is, a garden variety Nazi. If he wasn't then why did he lie about it for 60 years? Oh, by the way, I'm not going to stop editing the article. I apologize if that disappoints you. And one last final thing: It is possible that he is a Nazi, but we don't know because the German government refuses to release the names of the 11 million Nazi party members on file. The German government does not have the moral authority to condemn anyone. --Getaway 20:02, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Please do not put words into my mouth. I never said you want to shoot anyone. That was your imagination. Please stick to NPOV or stop editing. This is an encyclopedia, not your blog. Or, we might need a mediator for this article. DLX 20:20, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Once again, you have not provided an example of where I was engaging in non-NPOV. So please drop it. Also, once again, it is possible that he was a Nazi--we just don't know the records have not been released. Also, his book is coming out on the first of Sept and we will learn more about what he has been lying about. Also, you please stick to the NPOV or just stop editing the article, this is an encyclopedia and no one wants your preconceived ideas of Mr. Grass in it. And finally, I'm waiting for your examples. Thank you. --Getaway 20:27, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

You've avoided POV edits in the article, it's true and commendable. However, the talk page of a public figure is not the place for mud-slinging. Additionally, making sarcastic or denegrating comments in edit summaries, toward anonymous editors or otherwise, is bad. Remember, a lot of vandals do what they do to get a rise out of people, so if you revert something like that, just say "rv" instead of going after the other editor. --Akhonji 20:28, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

At the end of the day, that's all the charges that you can get me on??? And I'm get a speech from you who assumed that I wrote, "served as a Nazi"??? But you had me mistaken for an anon editor???? Give me a break!!! Don't lecture me. You started all of the discussion by encouraging AchtungAchtung to continue to engage in personal attacks, basically you were encouraging another editor to continue to break one the most important Wikipedian rules. Get out of here with that, jeez. Really. And don't forget Mr. Gunter Grass is a left-wing, blowhard. --Getaway 20:37, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

None of that makes any of what I said above less true. Just because I made the mistake of thinking you added something because you were defending it does not make my making note of what a talk page is for invalid. Neither have I encouraged to AchtungAchtung to make personal attacks; I think what he did was not a personal attack. Keep that in mind. A message board would be a fine place to talk and editorialize all you like; keep the talk page about the article. --Akhonji 20:43, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I have already pointed out that what AchtungAchtung did and stated is a personal attack, please review the policy. I will provide it to you once again: Wikipedia:No personal attacks. --Getaway 20:46, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I do not regard AchtungAchtung calling the view you took of the situation in WWII Germany naive as a personal attack any more than I regard this edit summary as one. Further, I did not encourage him to make personal attacks, I suggested that he should rethink his words and use naive instead of childish. --Akhonji 20:51, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh, for the sake of all that is good and decent, just freaking drop it. What he said was a personal attack. Stop arguing about it. He's not even arguing about it. Just edit the article. And remember Mr. Gunter Grass is full of himself.--Getaway 21:02, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is (at WP:NOT) not a soapbox for pontificating from about how foul people you don't like are. As I said above, that's for message boards. --Akhonji 22:10, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

You just can't stop yourself, can you??--Getaway 22:31, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I can't stop in good conscience as long as you insist on pontificating on talk pages. --Akhonji 14:11, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

In good conscience, that's funny. --Getaway 14:24, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I think I'm not going to be baited by you on this talk page any more. --Akhonji 15:33, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The little matter of the oath

I have been keenly following the discussion regarding Mr. Grass and his recent admission of his past as a member of the Waffen-SS. Inasmuch as there are those who would rather gloss over the severity of this admission and try to in some small way distance Günter Grass from the Nazis, it is quite important for people to understand exactly what he was. If indeed he was with the 10th Panzer in 1944, then he most certainly would have been involved in combat operations against Brits, Americans, (and Poles!) in and around Nijmegen and Arnhem.

He wasn't. He was stationed in the territory of the "czech protectorate" and never got to fire a shot or seen any of the allies. If you look at the map, you will see that a big pocket inside czech territory was still held by an intact and powerful nazi army when the war ended on 9th May 1945 and Third reich surrendered unconditionally. He was in the very middle of the pocket and never saw a yankee or briton before POW camp.

Also, please note that the following words most certainly passed from Günter Grass'lips:

"Ich schwöre Dir, Adolf Hitler, als Führer und Kanzler des Reiches Treue und Tapferkeit. Ich gelobe Dir und den von Dir bestimmten Vorgesetzten Gehorsam bis in den Tod, so wahr mit Gott helfe."

("I swear to you, Adolf Hitler, as Führer and Chancellor of the German Nation, loyalty and bravery. I vow to you and to my superiors designated by you obedience to the death. So help me God.")

Günter Grass could not have been a member of the Waffen-SS without swearing such an oath to Adolf Hitler.--21:11, 14 August 2006 Auseklis

Man Living Under Third Reich in Combat Operations Shock (hold that front page). Henry^Flower 21:14, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, big deal. Leibniz 21:21, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I imagine that's true. If you have a source, add it to the page to explain why it's controversial, it will go a long way toward explaining the situation instead of this "he's a nazi nazi bad" rhetoric we have above. If you don't have a source, add it to the page and put a citeneeded template on it and I'm certain someone will come up with a citation. --Akhonji 22:17, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Balance?

Grass is a, maybe the, major German novelist of the post-war period. I take it that it is appropriate for the Wikipedia entry about him both to mention the fact that he was briefly a member of the Waffen SS at the age of 17 and to mention the fact that he kept quiet about this for most of his life. But it is surely a violation of NPOV for these facts to occupy the proportion of the article that they to. Bristoleast 10:09, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

It seems noone's expanded on the relevant sections yet, that's all. Feel free to add information if you can! 136.186.1.184 10:49, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

It is surely not balanced due to the fact that the section only quotes negative statements about his "confession", this is no doubt agenda driven. You can find almost the same amount of positive and respectful statements from high profile personalities in Germany. --Asdf01 14:13, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I think that this is something to definitely consider; the view on the English Wikipedia is probably slanted by systemic bias. If any German editors are able to provide examples to the contrary, that would be keen. However, if a positive view of his disclosure is a minority position (which I don't know if it is, or isn't), that should be reflected in the article. --Akhonji 14:24, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The comments have both sides here. Some people say that without this point in his vita most of his work would have not been possible. But others state that the moral advices always key point of his work are not authentic anymore. Hellmuth Karasek said that he never got the noble price if he would said this earlier.[5] The worst accusation is that the marketing of the new book should benefit from the anouncement.[6] --Stone 15:15, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The most positive statement on Grass that I have seen is by Robert Schindel [7]. Leibniz 21:20, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Other notable positive statements exist from Ralph Giordano, Walter Jens, Arnulf Barning, Erich Loest. Asdf01 10:43, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I can't resist pointing out that Robert Schindel's parents were sent to Auschwitz, whilst Walter Jens was a member of the Nazi party. Leibniz 11:37, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

u could also point out that giordano is a jew. but im sure u wont!--Tresckow 23:11, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Das Question

Heya, this article includes the line:

"As Grass has for many decades been an outspoken left-leaning critic of Germany's treatment of its Nazi past, his statement caused a great stir in the press"

This would not be entirely clear to someone who is not au fait with Grass' past statements. What is his problem with Germany's treament of its Nazi past? Does he think it has shoved it under the rug too much? Or...? Drett 15:01, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The Nazi past was treated like problems anywere, get the most prominent ones and leave the rest to have people for the government and the administration. The offensive dealing with the past could have been better and he anounced always that we should give or best to overcome the past. But with the scelleton of being member of the Waffen-SS he also had the problems dealing with his own past.--Stone 15:15, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Grass Ratzinger

Gass said that he was in a POW camp (with 100 000 others) near Bad Aibling together with Ratzinger (Benedikt XVI) and gambled and discussed their future plans.--Stone 15:31, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kashubian

While people are looking at this page, this might be a good time to look for a source, if there is one, for the claim that his mother was part Kashubian. That's been appearing and disappearing from the article every so often for the last year or so, with no references that I've seen from either side. Henry^Flower 19:17, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Quick googling gave me "Günter Grass was born in Gdansk, Poland (formerly Danzig, Germany), the scene of his several novels. His father owned a grocery and his mother was of Kashubian origin - Slavic people distinct from the Poles both as to language and culture." [8], "the Nobel laureate, Gunther Grass, despite being a German citizen, proudly calls himself a Kashubian." [9], and perhaps the best one, "Günter Grass was born on 16 October 1927 in the then “Free City of Danzig,” now Polish Gdansk. His parents, Willy Grass (1899-1979) and Helene née Knoff (1898-1954) of German and Kashubian-Polish origin respectively, were typical of the mixed ethnic population of pre-war Danzig. They owned a grocery store with an attached apartment in Danzig-Langfuhr. Grass's sister was born in 1930." [10]. DLX 08:16, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tin Moralist, Wall Street Journal, 16 August 2006, A10

Tin Moralist

Nobel laureate Gunter Grass, author of the postwar classic "The Tin Drum" and self-styled conscience of Germany, is a darling of the anti-American and anti-globalization set. He is also a former member of Hitler's Waffen SS.

This previously unknown biographical tidbit emerged Saturday, 61 years after the fact. In an interview with the German daily Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung to promote his forthcoming autobiography, Mr. Grass offered that he volunteered for a U-boat unit in 1943 at age 15, but was turned down. A year later, he was drafted into the Waffen SS, a special unit notorious for its role in the Holocaust. He served in the closing year of the war but the details are still fuzzy. He didn't explain why he kept all this secret, except to say he felt ashamed. Cynics smelled a PR stunt to boost book sales. Others rushed to forgive him. Mr. Grass, after all, was only a teenager in a country at war, and by his own account never fired a shot.

Harder to ignore is Mr. Grass's silence all these years. His fiction as well as his political activism is built around the facts of his life, from his birth in "Free Danzig" to his experiences in wartime and postwar Germany. The new detail on his resume is not exactly small. But it does shed some interesting light on his public moralizing, for which his passion has often seemed greater than for his fiction.

To wit: In that same interview, Mr. Grass remembers that as an American prisoner of war he saw white GIs mistreat black comrades. "All of a sudden," he says, "I was confronted with direct racism." Let's see if we get this straight. A man who just confessed to serving in an elite Nazi unit, who belonged to the Hitler youth and who may have found it hard not to notice the disappearance of Jews from his native Danzig, claims that his first experience of racism came in a U.S. camp. Even in the Waffen SS, Mr. Grass felt morally superior to those damn Yanks, and he still does six decades later.

In 1968, he claimed the U.S. was "continuing war crimes in Vietnam, which, as German war crimes, had been rightly condemned at the Nuremberg Tribunal, including by American judges." Perhaps lowering Americans to the level of Nazis helped Mr. Grass's personal catharsis. Next he sought to establish German moral superiority as a direct result of having once been a Nazi state. In Saturday's interview, Mr. Grass muses about his country's accomplishment in confronting its past, concluding that "winning makes you dumb. The victors think they don't have to deal with the sins of the past."

This is an old Grass theory. Shortly after the start of the Iraq war in 2003, he said that "The word of the current American President 'You are either with us or against us' weighs as an echo of a barbaric era on all current events." He contrasts America's war for "economic interests" and moral decline with Germany's new superiority. "After two world wars with criminal consequences, for which we have to assume responsibility, we have, and it was difficult enough, learned from history and understood the lessons."

Had the U.S. followed Mr. Grass's advice 65 years ago, his career in the Waffen SS might have lasted longer than several months. But in a Continent liberated by American blood and treasure, this "peace" activist can, along with fellow European Nobelists Harold Pinter, Dario Fo and Jose Saramago, bash the U.S. in comfort and freedom.

The Wall Street Journal 08/16/2006
(Copyright (c) 2006, Dow Jones & Company, Inc.) 13:41, 16 August 2006 192.128.167.68 (Talk)

[edit] Grass's admission

First: I removed the following sentence from the introductory description of his works: Grass's wartime novels and Cat and Mouse in particular draw heavily on his own experience as a Luftwaffenhelfer. This earlier assertion by Grass was assumed to be the basis for his character Harry Liebenau's service in a FlaK unit in Dog Years. But by his own admission – as I understand it from media coverage (English and German) – Grass was not a Luftwaffe FlaK auxiliary, but rather was inducted (Der Spiegel used the word conscripted) into the labor service of a Waffen SS panzer unit. He did not volunteer.

Second: I have been a fan of Grass's Danzig Trilogy for many years. It was I who contributed the bit in the article about his "lyrical prose that is highly evocative," and recent events haven't changed my opinion of his very great talent as an author.

Third: Like many others, I was astounded to read Grass's admission that he'd been in Waffen-SS unit – not because such duty was uncommon among German teenagers near the end of the war, but because he'd kept it to himself ever since the war. This was indeed shocking and disappointing, but to my mind does not alter his status in the literature of the WWII and postwar period. To further explain my view of the situation, I offer here comments I sent to an old German friend who lives in London:

The thing that was so astonishing was that he kept it a secret all this time. Such was the opprobrium of the SS. Even so, as an outsider, I would think he would have made an even clearer moral statement early in his career had he divulged this youthful ... mistake? ... early on, say in the late '50s.

Last year I read an interesting short biographical account of the Waffen-SS by one Johann Voss, which may be a pen name, titled "Black Edelweiss" (ISBN:0-9666389-8-0). He volunteered out of misplaced idealism and spent most of the war in Finland/Karelia on purely military duty. Nevertheless, when he wound up in a U.S. POW camp in France at the end, he changed his uniform to regular Wehrmacht and concealed his record. I'm sure many other Waffen-SS survivors did the same.

Of course, I realize that by '44 every German male 16 and over who was physically able (and some who weren't) was compelled to render some sort of military service. And one understands that at 17 one is easily swayed by romantic/nationalistic appeals. An interesting parallel is the character Mahlke in Grass's novella "Katz und Maus," who volunteers for a crack panzer unit at 17 -- possibly Waffen-SS, I don't remember.

But the general public is unlikely to be as understanding about Grass's minor "SS" service as are those who, like me, have read extensively about the era, and who know that the Waffen-SS, though certainly not without guilt, was different from the Allgemeine SS that ran the death camps. So it seems he will to some extent be tarnished by this belated revelation.

Last comment: Lech Wałesa's demand that he renounce his honorary Gdańsk citizenship is predictable but unfortunate and to my mind very sad. In any event, Grass always will be a citizen of the world – and a native of the city of Danzig, which no longer exists. Sca 15:08, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for those thoughtful comments. Just one quick point, I don't think anyone believes that his literary achievements are tarnished by his belated admission (that work stand on its own), but I do think that his endless moralizing and finger-wagging has been thoroughly tarnished and there is going to be a period where Grass catches crap while people put that moralizing and finger-wagging into its proper perspective.--Getaway 15:41, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I think you are conflating different things: Flakhelfer while a pupil, Reichsarbeitsdienst after that, Waffen-SS after that. Certainly, your "labor service of a Waffen SS panzer unit" sounds totally garbled. Leibniz 15:15, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

You have indeed caught me reading too quickly. I misunderstood the following sentence from Spiegel: Grass wurde mit 17 einberufen und kam vom Arbeitsdienst zur Panzerdivision "Frundsberg," die zur Waffen-SS gehörte. However, the sentence before this one did give me the impression that Grass had not been an anti-aricraft auxiliary: Der "Blechtrommel"-Autor war nicht wie bislang bekannt lediglich 1944 als Flakhelfer ingezogen worden.

This information came across on Spiegel's English-language site as: From the middle of 1944 until the end of the war in the spring of 1945, Grass served in the Frundsberg tank division of the elite military outfit. Previously, he had contended that he was a teenage helper of an anti-aircraft unit.

You may be in position to clear up this (minor) question about his service as a Flakhelfer prior to his induction into the Frundsberg Division.

Sca

[edit] Trivial facts in introduction

What a Nobel-Prize-winning author did as a kid does not belong in the introduction of his biography. Lots of more important things could be said about Grass, but we cannot have his whole life in the introduction. The introduction shall only provide an overview of his life and work. Details from his childhood are to be described in the biographical section below. Polish nationalist POV pushing will be reverted. -- peterr 16:21, 16 August 2006 (UTC) 16 August 2006 83.109.174.42 (Polish nationalist POV pushing removed) (talk)

Thank you for your opinion, but it is not about what he did as a 17 year old. Just like Nixon, it was not about the break-in the Democratic HQ, it was the lying and covering up. Grass lied about his true service record for 60 years--while wagging his hypocritical finger at everyone else that did not agree with him. That is what it is about 60 years of sanctimous lying. If he had come clean much earlier like in the 60's even then no one would raising an eyebrow about it. Because folks are raising one, two, three, etc. eyebrows about it it notable and should be mentioned in detail in the article. I don't believe and I don't believe most folks believe that it changes the great contribution that he gave to literature, but it does make his public moralizing look rather pathetic in hindsight. If was just an author then I don't think the sixty year silence would have made a difference, but he acted as a quasi-politician, quasi-moral authority and as such he is going to get re-evaluated. You are welcome to add to article concerning his literary work. (This is part of the note is for the other readers, not 83.109.174.42: Yeah, I know that this is long-winded. Deal with it! :> ) --Getaway 14:45, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

  Polish nationalist POV ?   
  What the fuck is that?
  This is a slender of one of the braviest nation on this planet.
  Are we going to allow some NAZI nationalists to control the history of the second World War?

I would strongly suggest also that someone verify if the ISP numbers are comming from what once was a Eastern Europ or other countries of th world!.

  http://www.arin.net/whois
  http://www.ripe.net/whois
  http://www.apnic.net/whois
  http://www.afrinic.net/cgi-bin/whois
  http://www.lacnic.net/cgi-bin/lacnic/whois

Altough I do agree that the Polish Wikipedia is controled by some Polish fanatics protecting autobiografies of Polish Communists (Alexander Kwasniewski aka. Sacha Stolzman (KGB agent), Walesa, Michnik, Jaruzelski, Kuron) from being corrected and properly reported it doesn't mean that every one is a Polish Nationalist.

Either we keep Wikipedia neutral reflecting the REAL FACTS as they are known, or just remove the controversial articles entirely from the Wikipedia.

I am an American who happens to speak Polish and I do not have any pro Polish Nationalist tendencies.

I do consider however that the statment used above (Polish nationalist POV) is a shovinist discriminatory term which illustrates that some administrators of Wikipedia have some emotional problems when forgot to take their medicines! Why some oxymorons are refusing to admit the historical truth and are playing Wikipedia GODS in an attempt to resculpt the history / biografies to be politically correct, denying the actual well known and verified facts?

   http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/1999/grass-bio.html
  
   http://miasta.gazeta.pl/trojmiasto/1,35612,3548305.html
 
   http://serwisy.gazeta.pl/swiat/1,34180,3550952.html

   http://serwisy.gazeta.pl/swiat/1,34180,3553382.html

Dear peterr/83.109.174.42, do not engage in personal attacks. Please review the policy of personal attacks. It is located here: Wikipedia:No personal attacks. You accused my of "Polish nationalist POV pushing." This is personal attack. I'm not Polish, I am an American Indian. I have never been to Poland. I can only speak English and Spanish, I do not know any East European languages. I do not have a dog in any dispute between Poland and Germany. I am vaguely aware of this issues, but I would be hard pressed to discuss them in detail. So, you are making an assumption that is wrong. It is a personal attack and I am now asking you to stop. Also, you are to assume "good faith". You are NOT to assume POV pushing. That is violation of Wikipedia policy. Please review the policy and stop the incorrect allegations. Also, do not start an edit war. You have already used your three reverts for one 24 period. Please be aware of that. --Getaway 16:35, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

The fact that he was in the Waffen-SS is not trivial, as you can see from the stir it is causing. I agree that it should not be in the short lead section, but inserting it there certainly is not "Polish nationalist POV". Please do not attack other contributors in this way (see WP:NPA). If Grass' SS membership is discussed in the introduction, I would suggest to discuss the stir his admission has caused, which is more notable than the fact by itself. Kusma (討論) 16:31, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

… as has now been done by Henry Flower. It now reads well, IMO, and is not inappropriate for the lead. It's surely no less appropriate than mentioning his support for the SPD. Vilĉjo 17:13, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

No. The two items are not of the same importance. His support of the SPD is merely the actions of an individual attempting to influence policy--whether he participated of did not participate in the SDP would not have effected his career. However, the admission undermines much of the hectoring lectures that he gave throughout his 60 year career. Also, there are credible folks that argue that if had released that imformation (the Waffen-SS disclosure) years before he quite possibly would not have won the Nobel Prize at worst or least he would not have been held up as the great, omniscient moral authority that was treated as for 60 years.--Getaway 17:30, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Of course the two items are not of the same importance - that was exactly my point! Whatever impact it may or may not have on one's view of GG, it certainly seemed bizarre for some to be arguing that there should be no mention of the W-SS in the lead, while leaving in the rather less significant SPD stuff. Vilĉjo 17:45, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I misunderstood your point.--Getaway 18:06, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Exacly, his decade-long support and campaigning for the SPD, i.e. his political stance, as an adult is of much more importance than in exactly which part of the German military he served for a couple of months while he was still a kid more than 60 years ago and did not experience anything unusual! 18:04, 16 August 2006 (edit)83.109.174.42 (Talk)

No. As I pointed out before, his admission, if it had come earlier, would have affected his career significantly--that could be a reason he chose not to disclose it. Also, his hectoring of others look hypocritical now that we know that he was not completely honest himself when he was running around pointing the finger at others, that's why the admission is most significant, important, notable than the SPD work.--Getaway 18:12, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

…though, without wishing to lengthen the lead, it's perhaps worth nuancing the phrase "during World War II", as the previous text did. Vilĉjo 17:21, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Political stance

I have taken out this claim:

"He abandoned his mission of gradual socialist reform through the existing West German political institutions. Grass instead adopted a philosophy of direct action, similar to that advocated by the younger generation of 1968."

Sources? What the hell is "philosophy of direct action"? A twee euphemism for Baader-Meinhof gang terrorism, presumably? Grass was in fact a critic of the 1968 radicals. Leibniz 18:18, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wig?

Does he wear a wig? It sure looks like he does. Revision as of 17:19, 16 August 2006; 195.93.21.103 (Talk)

Maybe Mike Wallace knows whether Grass wears a wig? ;-)

Intersting to note from his prisoner of war record (now pictured with article) that Grass was captured on May 8, 1945 – coincidentally, the day Nazi Germany surrendered unconditionally.

Sca 22:34, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Grass's service 1944-1945

As there has been such a superabundance of content-free bullshit, I'm still trying to sort out the facts.

From an interview with the historian Hans-Ulrich Wehler (U Bielefeld) [11]:

"Man muß da unterscheiden: Die Waffen-SS war nicht die SS und wurde von Himmler deswegen aufgebaut, damit sie eines Tages die Wehrmacht schlucken könnte. Wenn der Krieg weitergegangen wäre, hätte die Waffen-SS mehr als eine Million Mitglieder gehabt. Kurz vor Kriegsende waren es 900.000. Das waren ja nicht alles Gläubige. Das eigentliche Dilemma ist nicht die Mitgliedschaft, sondern, daß er sie erst jetzt zugibt."

"Es ist natürlich ein Unterschied ob man freiwilliger oder unfreiwilliger Kriegsteilnehmer war. Grass war, wie wir jetzt wissen, Freiwilliger. Aber von der SS-Division „Frundsberg“, zu der er gehörte, sind keine Gemetzel überliefert, das war eine reine Nachhut-Division."

That is, he makes a distinction between the SS and Waffen-SS, and says the division was not involved in any known war crimes (unlike some others, by the way). I find it significant that a historian makes that distinction, and not some Waffen-SS apologist. And it is not as easy as saying "the Waffen-SS was just a fighting unit" either: consider 3rd SS Division Totenkopf.

According to the POW (I almost wrote POV...) document, Grass was a "Lade-Schütze" in a tank. The correct translation is "loader" or assistant gunner, but it has been pencilled in incorrectly as "rifleman", which would be "Schütze". According to snippets from his forthcoming book, the division was falling to pieces in 45 and he fought as infantry against the Red Army.

The Waffen-SS was a deliberate attempt by Himmler to make the SS look good, by blurring the distinction between what people approved of (fighting for one's country) and other SS activities better not advertised (genocide). I want to know in which of these capacities an individual was involved, although I realise making such fine delineations is a minority pursuit here.

Leibniz 12:59, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Pardon my obtuseness, but is it established that he was a Flakhelfer before he was in the Frundsberg Division, or was this a fabrication on his part? The latter seems to be implied by the Der Spiegel accounts mentioned above. Thanks.

Sca 14:54, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Just because he's in one unit, doesn't mean he didn't have to serve manning flak guns also. At that time many units performed many tasks depending on what was of priority at that moment. EDIT: Sorry, also forgot that as part of serving in the Reichsarbeitsdienst, military training was given, particularly for flak units.--Koncorde 15:57, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I realize service in one unit doesn't mean he didn't serve in another. But it seems we still don't know for sure, based on reporting of Grass's recent admission, whether he was ever a Flakhelfer as he claimed, or not. The Spiegel syntax appears to dismiss this claim, but does not specifically term it a fabrication. (I'm interested partly for literary reasons.)

Sca 20:53, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I do not recall anything indicating it was a fabrication. But I agree we still don't know for sure. Leibniz 21:16, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, in the German Wiki article, it says: Zuvor hieß es in den veröffentlichten Biografien des Schriftstellers stets, er sei 1944 Flakhelfer geworden und danach als Soldat einberufen worden. But that doesn't clear it up, either. Sca

Now I see what you mean. The 1944 Flakhelfer does not make much sense any more. I assumed it was earlier. Leibniz 22:55, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

• Well, Dr.phil. Leibniz ("Keks") et.al., please realize that (not only, but above all) in Germany there does exist that very type of a "structural Nazi" -both Augstein, Ed. Der Spiegel, and Zwerenz, free-lanced writer, a left-wing one, named "konstitutioneller Nazi"-, and whenever thinking over what Günter Grass publicly told us for decades, and recently on August 12, 2006, in his FAZ-interview, I´d like to name him a "structural liar". Moreover, and that´s in fact relevant even for en.wikipedia, according to 1944/45 these hard-core-facts produced by US-Army in 1946 and published by Spiegel-online sixty years later - August 15, 2006 - are not only documented but everybody who can read can read [[12]]. The three documents as produced by the US-Army in 1946 and published by the online-edition of the German weeky cearly show, as a matter of fact, that Herr Dr. h.c. Grass i) was an SS-member since Nov.10, 1944, ii) was, as a prisoner of war, captured May 8, 1945, iii) was delivered to another camp Jan. 3, 1946, and ii) was released April 15, 1946 - sincerely MvS

Thank you again. In case someone had asked me, that is a fine specimen of what I was referring to above: Leeres Gesülze. Leibniz 17:29, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Be it as it ever may be, Herr Dr Leibniz: It´s not possible that "Gesülze" is "leer", for, e.g., "Gesülze" is neither a tool like a bucket nor such a sparkler like the brain of a man, but I will accept your apologize for this time that your brain may be "leer" -empty- actually;-); but for (the fire) next time, please, do inform you, in due course, what "contradictio in adiecto" means, y.s., MvS

• Well, Leibniz, demiurgue of that postmodernist metaphor "Leeres Gesuelze" , here´s the truth, the only truth, and nothing but the very truth: one of the en.wikipedia-chieftains named Dr.phil Leibniz ("der Keks") is really not at all able to grasp elementary rules of logic ... the very best: "Abstinken, der Mann " (Heinrich Mann) - Dr.iur.M.v.Schoene-Bonn

[edit] Kurski

The news states the whole party, also it includes Lech Welsea, and others. Please discuss on talk page and provide citation to claim "only" MP - it's not true. I'm from Poland and you can believe me:>.

• This is not official statement of Law and Justice. There are no official statements or hand-outs. Only Jacek Kurski stated - see Gazeta Wyborcza or PAP communicates
• Wałęsa is opponent of the ruling party. Szwedzki 19:09, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to have take your word for it because as I stated earlier I don't know any East European languages and all I have read is in English from Reuters and other sources and they claim that it is the whole Law & Justice Party that has made that request, Obviously, though, Wałęsa has a much higher profile in the media over here in the States, which makes me tend to believe that Wałęsa did make a call for the honorary citizenship title to be given up. Also, I understand your point (he is in opposition to the Law & Justice Party) about Wałęsa, but that fact does not prove that the ruling party did not make that request. Believe it or not there are Republicans and Democrats that agree on things all the time, for example. --Getaway 19:14, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Wałęsa was a paid confidential collaborator (tajny wspólpracownik) of Security Services ( SB ) in Poland! His credibility is undermined by the fact that he stole NOBEL prize and is a traitor to many Poles! Wałęsa tovaristh "Bolek" was expedited by the special forces by a SPEED BOAT of Polish Navy to suppress the strikes. Lech Wałęsa classiffied as agent with the listing GD 12535 was hired as a confidential agent on December 29, 1970 by the inspector of the II Department in the city of Olsztyn colonel Graczyk. --74.62.251.246 (Talk) 03:36, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

There is an interesting article in TSC Daily by Austin Bay (today's edition) that discussed how conspiracy theories "are public ghost stories of a sort, campfire horror tales tarted up with government devils, corporate witches and other demons-of-convenience." It is good reading. You can read the whole thing here: [13]. Cheers,--Getaway 18:51, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Absurd Turn

The manner in which this article has been hijacked by pointless gossip about Grass' career in the War is absurd. I hate to be the voice of reason amongst children, but Mr Grass' service with the Waffen SS is irrelevant to the vast majority of his career as a writer and campaigner. I find it utterly shocking that you people can reduce this great man's contribution to western culture and politics to a load of nonsense about the War. Grass' was one of hundreds of thousands who had exactly the same experiences. May I also remind you he was merely 17 years old when he signed up.

Waffen SS simply means 'The Army' in the vast majority of cases - one did not need to be an Aryan supremacist to get into the Waffen SS. Having fired some tank shells does not make Grass some flag waving Nazi. If anything he is the total opposite.

If you have any common sense you will reduce this trash about his war record to a minimum and concentrate on what really matters - his works.

Had I lived in a time of war would I have signed up? I probably would have. Like any 17 year old boy I would have loved the idea of a gun or a tank or a fighter plane. I look at this whole episode and the sincerest reaction I have to the pathetic rantings of the liberal-left is "Get over yourselves, you pontificating fools. Big deal, he fought in the war...so did my grandfathers".

This is such immaturity, it really is...it demonstrates a total lack of interest and concern for Grass' contribution. The most aggravating thing about the whole debate in this discussion page is that the majority of the contributors had a) Never even heard of Grass before, and b) Have never read a single thing he has written - they are here merely to feel self important and air their ill-informed and tiresome points of view.Iamlondon 13:19, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Duh. You've just added another screenfull of rant. Stop complaining and add something about his work. Dog Years (novel) is a stub to get you started---just in case you are serious. But writing simplistic guff like 'Waffen SS simply means 'The Army'" is just bait for further "Nazi elite Pantzer SS" rants. Leibniz 14:58, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

• Beware of pickpockets, tricksters, and academic swindlers, whether they may have got a Ph.D. or not, name themselves today Leibniz or Keks [[14]]], tomorrow Nietzsche or Bahlsen. Moreover, please, look at [[15]], [[16]], and tell me whether this man should be a representative of the en-wikipedia-community any longer, or not; su, ma.beauty1atgmx.net 80.136.127.41 22:12, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Drive-by NOV tagging

An editor slapped a NOV tag on the article and made no comments on the talk page. He/She did make one comment in the edit summary, that basically stated, "I think so." It is no enough reasoning to justify the tag. There has to be some kind of discussion and effort to fix the article. The response was too random. --Getaway 11:53, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Granted. But I find Kurski (Who he?) and Irving (likewise) equally trivial point-scorers. Why not say they cancel and cut both? Leibniz 14:14, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Although i agree the information on Kurski is of fairly minor importance, I have to disagree about Irving, if you don't know who he is you should click the wikilink and have a look, he's a fairly major American novelist and has been well noted for having a very liberal social outlook and so his defence of Grass is pretty notable. As well as this, I think you're way off the mark when you say that the two comments cancel out, before I added the John Irving section there was information on 3 critics of Grass and none on his defenders which hardly presents a balanced view of the reaction to the whole thing, its still incredibly biased towards his critics now but at least there's one defender listed on the page. Caprosser 14:46, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

No. The information on Kurski is NOT of fairly minor imporatance. Kurski is of fairly minor importance. There is distinct difference. What Kurski is calling for can be left in and attribute the notion to Welsea and Kurski can be removed. Also, Irving is really only famous for The World According to Garp. He will never earn the Nobel Prize for Literature. Cinder House Rules and the others are only famous because people paid attention for a while after Garp. I don't see how a B+ writer from America compares to Welsea, a Nobel laureate. Sure, cut Kurski, but don't cut the point that people are calling for Grass to disavow his honorary citizenship.--Getaway 15:04, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I sort of agree with both (if that's possible). There have been quite a few people who were supportive or only mildly critical of Grass. We have been there before, see talk. It just looks a bit US-parochial if a minor US celebrity from a wholly different league than Grass is parachuted in to sort out a European mess. Leibniz 15:39, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

To dismiss Irving's defence of Grass on the grounds that he's not really that good an author is ridiculous, regardless of what your opinion of Irving's literary merit the fact remains that he is a notable figure in the literary world and is particularly important in this instance because Grass is considered to be one of Irving's major influences and someone that he has written about a great deal in the past (see Irving's Trying to Save Piggy Sneed if you want an example). To dismiss Irving simply because he's American is also ridiculous and looks completely Euro-parochial, Grass is too major a world literary figure for this issue to simply be considered a European one. Its all very well noting that many people have defended Grass on the talk page but the issue at stake here is what appears on the article and to present views that are only critical of Grass and none in his defence is completely POV. Caprosser 00:44, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

No. I offered an alternative, which is Walsea. --Getaway 01:00, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Er, Walsea isn't defending Grass, the article already says "Lech Wałęsa has severely criticized Grass for keeping silent about his membership for 60 years" so I'm not sure what you mean by that. Caprosser 01:19, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Grass's statement

Günter Grass makes the following statement in his forthcoming memoirs (English translation from English-language site of Der Spiegel):

"What I had openly accepted with the foolish pride of my youth was the very same thing I wanted to conceal from myself with a delayed sense of shame after the war. But the burden remained, and no one could make it lighter. True, the war crimes later revealed were never heard of during my training time as a tank rifleman - a training time that dulled my mind for all of that fall and the following winter. But while I didn't know of these specific crimes, I did know I was part of a system that had planned, organized and carried out the destruction of millions of people. Even if I allowed myself to be convinced that I hadn't contributed actively, something - all too easily called complicity - has remained until today. I will certainly have to continue living with it during my remaining years."

To my mind, this comports with views I expressed above. The issue is not about the fact that he was in a Waffen-SS unit at age 17, but that he kept quiet about it until he was 79. Whether he fabricated the bit about being a Flakhelfer remains unclear, to me at least.

Sca 15:22, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] An opinion

Daniel Kehlmann, writing in Der Spiegel, observes:

Involvement in the Nazi system, even among the youngest Germans of the time, was more widespread than we have previously wanted to perceive, and many aspects of the era's crimes even now lie buried in silence. They are crimes that few books chronicle so well as "The Tin Drum," "Cat and Mouse" and "Dog Years."

Later, Grass changed, and his novels changed, too, becoming didactic and colorless. These weaker books will be effaced by the passage of time. His earlier novels, however, which tell of the deep corruptibility of human beings, of the coexistence of mendacity and greatness and of the infinitely complex nature of guilt, will be with us for as long as people read books.

I agree. The Danzig Trilogy of "The Tin Drum," "Cat and Mouse" and "Dog Years" will remain a masterful portrayal of human foibles in the distinct cultural and historical setting of Danzig, which is no more.

Sca 01:26, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Enough!

This whole discussion has become senseless. I fully accept that at the age of 17, in the last months of the war, Guenther Grass, was a member of Waffen-SS, whether conscripted (very likely) or not. Too much is being made of his not publicizing this, even though he did mention in his autobiography. Clearly, he was ashamed of it, and didn't want to talk about it.

Syrenab 14:53, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

The international hubbub over the whole thing is indeed exaggerated. Still, as a longtime Grass fan, I'd like to know whether he lied about being a Flakhelfer. Sca 17:19, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Enough?! Grass has never been properly called to account for his war record. Now that we know he was indeed an eager volunteer in the SS he should be held up to public scrutiny for the rest of his life. He has lied and hidden his uber-Nazi past for the previous 60 years, so I don't see why he should be let off with a light "oh well, turns out he was willing fascist storm trooper - but don't worry, he writes some nice books so we'll overlook his murderous past". Now that his story about being an unwilling conscript to the HJ has been revealed as a fake, we should be asking more quesitons about the motivation behind his literary efforts to recast the Germans as victims of WW2. He should be hounded about these revelations until his dying day - and if at all possible called to account for the war crimes committed by him and his comrades in the vile Schutzstaffel. Only then can we say "enough". --Corinthian 15:47, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

What war record? Where do you get "uber-nazi"? He wasn't Schutzstaffel, he was in Waffen SS. A 17 yo kid who got drafted. Right, got to be uber-Nazi. Please get your facts even remotely right. DLX 18:33, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

The Waffen-SS was the military wing of the Schutzstaffel - it was under the direct control of the SS Headquarters just like all other branches of the SS. It was also manned by volunteers, not conscripts. At Nuremburg, the Waffen-SS was found to be criminal, and to this day those who served in it are denied benefits given to Wehrmacht soldiers. The Waffen-SS was guilty of many war crimes and atrocities. So your attempt to paint the Waffen-SS as a lovely cuddly organisation filled with "innocent" draftees just itching to become post-war literary figures is totally incorrect. ALL elements of the SS were foul, and all were bulwarks of extreme Nazi fanatacism. You must either be a German, or a Nazi-apologist to even attempt to rehabilitate the Waffen-SS in this way.--Corinthian 18:55, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Corinthian you should really check your facts before making outlandish accusations and insinuations. We do not know that Grass was an "eager volunteer" as you said, in fact the only evidence we have suggests otherwise, sure I respect anyone's right to doubt the evidence seeing as it generally comes from Grass himself but there is no way you can say you "know" something which there is no evidence for. Same goes for uber-Nazi. As for hounding him to his dying day, yes you're absolutely right we should do that, just like we did with all those other nazi ss scum, like Wernher von Braun for example... As for the Waffen-SS, yes you're right that it was the military wing of the SS and came under its control but you're mistaken when you say it was an all volunteer organisation. While that was true originally, once the Nazi's discovered they weren't getting enough recruits they did introduce conscription for the SS, and it is important to note that the conscripts were specifically exempted from punishment after the SS was declared illegal after the war. Trying to paint Grass as guilty of war crimes simply because he was a member of an organisation that did commit horrific war crimes is frankly ridiculous. By your logic all Vietnam vets are war criminals because of what happened at My Lai or even the contemporary American military for what went on at Abu Ghraib and I think you'll agree (I hope) that's ridiculous. As for saying that someone would have to be german to try and "rehabilitate" the SS (which no one is trying to do anyway) is racist and ridiculous. Please grow up and realise that situations are rarely black or white and questions of morality are rarely easily solved. Caprosser 04:51, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Corinthian, please stop personal attacks - see WP:NPA. Then go and check your facts. Nazi is a member of National Socialist German Workers Party. Grass was 17, he couldn't even be a member of the party (actually, there were some younger members if my memory serves me right, but those were special cases), he was in Hitlerjugend. He tried to volunteer to U-boats, but was turned down (that happened when he was 15). Later he was conscripted (not volunteered!) into Reichsarbeitsdienst and was afterwards transferred to Waffen SS. There is no records whatsoever showing that he was involved in any war atrocities.

I see a youngster, who wanted to be on submarines. Then he got drafted for labor service and finally transferred to Waffen SS. Same happened to thousands of German youngsters at the end of WWII. I fail to see him as a Nazi, war criminal or "despicable" - he had no choice in this. And if you now say that he could have run away, please see how US soldiers who try not to participate in Iraqi occupation are welcomed.

Only thing about Grass's being in WWII is that he didn't come out about the Waffen SS in 60 years. But even in that, I can understand. You don't make yourself exactly more popular by saying that you were in the German army. There are thousands German with the same kind of "skeleton in the back closet".He wouldn't have received Nobel price - even though no one disputes the value of his books is unchanged.

And therefore, I must just agree with "enough already". DLX 07:30, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Getting back to talking about the article, are there reliable sources saying that he was conscripted into the Wafen-SS? If not, shouldn't the article say that he served in the Wafen-SS, without claiming that he volunteered or that he was conscripted? Andjam 08:50, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pointless

I agree completely with DLX's comments above, but I think it's pointless to respond to such injudicious and inane comments as those left by 'Corinthian.' Why dignify this sort of comment — apparently from a non-User — with a reply? Indeed, why keep it on this page?

Sca 16:13, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Addendum:

Roger Cohen contributed an excellent commentary on this issue in the New York Times Sept. 6, in which he observed:

Humanity is double. Just as love and hate reside in proximity to each other, the noble and the abject are not distant neighbors. We may wish that it were otherwise, but purity is not always or even often the midwife of beauty. While the moralists bay at each other in this age of faith- driven certainties, the novelist explores the ambiguities that are the painful heart of human nature.

Sca 13:54, 7 September 2006 (UTC)