Talk:Göktürks

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Contents

[edit] Comments

[edit] Comment

I've come upon the spelling Gok-Türk. Given that it seems to be that the purpose of Wikipedia is to make life unbearable for all those who don't have dead keys, does anybody know whether this is the correct spelling? -Itai 15:16, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Only in Turkish, and as I recall this is the English version of the Wikipedia. The accepted form of 'Turk' in English is, not suprisingly, 'Turk'. However, Sinor, Soucek and others do use an umlaut over the o in 'Gök' or 'Kök'. (Sikandarji 12:34, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC))

[edit] Translation notes

Moved from Wikipedia:Translation into English.

  • Article: de:Göktürken
  • Corresponding English-language article: Gokturks
  • Worth doing because: Material to incorporate into English-language article
  • Originally Requested by: Itai 16:38, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)
  • Status: Translated, but review requested by Jmabel 23:16, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC) (Jmabel notes: User:Sandman has now reviewed, with minor edits. Complete. -- Jmabel 16:42, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC))

[edit] Staged contribution

Pasted material from Turkic peoples : I hope it is useful Refdoc 23:23, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

GOKTURKS'

After the fall of the Hun advent and Turkic domination of Asia and Europe, the next Turkic federation was that of the Gok-Turks who originated from the Ashina tribe who were natives of today's Xiang Uygur. The Ashinas were the first Turkic tribe to use the name "Turk" as a political name. The Gok-Turk empire was established by Ilterish Khagan, and perhaps the most famous of the Gok-Turk princes was Kul Tegin who is mentioned in the Orhun Inscriptions dated back to the 7th century.

The Gok-Turk empire, extending from the Black Sea across central Asia to the Pacific Ocean united the Turks as a nomadic confederation. The great difference between the Gok-Turk and it's preceding Hun empire was the subordination of the Turks and their temporary Khans (lords) to a central authority that was left in the hands of a dynasty of tribal chiefs. Shamanism, the worship of nature was the most common practiced religion in the Gok-Turk state, as it was prior to the establishment of the empire.

In 582, shortly after its inception, the Gokturk Empire was divided into two khanates (states) which became known as the eastern and western empires. Both khanates were attacked by the Tang dynasty of China in 630 and were subjugated by the Chinese for years, until the first Gok-Turk state finally collapsed. Fifty-two years later, the Turks revolted against the Chinese and were able to establish the second Gok-Turk empire which lasted until 740.

The first Gok-Turk state

Rulers of the eastern & western portions:

Bumin Khaghan (552)

Kolo (552)

Bek Khan Khaghan (553 - 572)

Taspar Khaghan (572 - 581)

Ishbara Khaghan (582 - 587)

Yehu (587)

Tulan (587-599)

Buchia (599-601)

Jimin Khaghan (601 - 609)

Shibi Khaghan (609 - 619)

Chulo Khaghan (619 - 621)

Illigh Khaghan (621 - 630)

Tardu (Western ruler) (582 - 603)

Shih-keui (603-618)

Tong Yabgu (618 - 630)

Important events in the first Gok-Turk empire:

552: Bumin and Istemi overthrew the Juan-Juans

555: Final defeat of the Juan-Juans

571: Istemi’s campaigns in Azerbaijan and Transoxiana

582: Division of the Turk empire into Eastern and Western khanates

600: Tardu’s campaign against the Chinese

603: Tie Le tribes kill Tardu

610: Rise of the Eastern Khaghanate

618: Rise of the Western Khaghanate

630: Jieli Khaghan captured by the Tang Chinese, Tong Yabgu killed by his uncle, both Turk khanates collapse

659: Last remnants of the Western Turks subjugated by the Tang

682: Khutlugh founded the second Gok-Turk empire


The second Gok-Turk empire

Rulers of the eastern & western portions:

Kutlugh Iltirish Khaghan (682 - 692)

Khapaghan Khaghan (692 - 716)

Inel Bogu Khaghan (716)

Bilge Khaghan (716 - 734)

Turk Bilge Khaghan (734 - not clear)

Tenri Khan (734-741)

Khutlugh Bilge Khaghan (741-743)

Ilitmish Bilge Khaghan (743)

Ozmish Khaghan (743)

Bomei Khaghan (743-744)

Important Events in the second Gok-Turk empire

682: Kutluk and Ilterish founded the second Gok-Turk Empire

693: Kapgan Kaghan’s campaign against the On-Ok and Kyrgyz tribes

701: The Transoxiana Campaigns

710: Defeat of the Kyrgyz revolt

716: Kapgan Kaghan killed by the Bayirku tribe, his son is overthrown by Bilge and Kul Tegin

720: Bilge Kaghan’s Chinese Campaign

725: Death of Ayguji Tonyukuk

731: Death of Kul Tegin

734: Bilge Kaghan’s campaign against the Kitan and Tatabi tribes, Bilge poisoned

742: The "Rebel Alliance" capture Otugen and depose the last Gokturk ruler

I've incorporated much of the narrative material above into the article, except "Ilterish Kaghan" which I suspect may be a misunderstanding and I will take up at Turkic peoples. -- Jmabel 18:20, Aug 30, 2004 (UTC) (Looks like someone beat me to it.) -- Jmabel 18:21, Aug 30, 2004 (UTC)

Much of User:Refdoc's list of rulers here contradicts what is in the article (and it doesn't come from our article Turkic peoples). Since I have no actual expertise in this area, I am not going to attempt a merge. Could someone more expert please sort this out? Citations would be very nice, and if there are contradictory sources, could someone please make that clear? -- Jmabel 18:28, Aug 30, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Blue Turks -> Many Turks

Okey now folks!I think it now is the time to end the biggest confusion about the meaning of the name "Göktürk".As we all know or at least the people who know a bit about this situation the name göktürk comes to existence with two words coming together to form one word.

And since my childhood our techers have taught us about those people and both the teachers and our school books were quite determined to make us accept that the word in deed meant BLUE TURKS.And since those days whenever i've come up to this word i couldn't help myself not trying to set a link to accept the sense the word made.Although I kept on thinking all this time I have not been able to set a link.Basically,the word made no acceptable sense.In fact,the only sense it had made to me was some Turkish people in the looks of the SMURFS.

After all those years and through very intense researches I have been able to find out the original shape of the word and the truth behind the spelling and ridiculous meaning of the one which we all have been forced to accept and learn.

Because the runes were found by people who didn't have an extensive information about Turkish linguistics,when the word GOKTURK was decoded on those stones it was accepted in accordance with the closest meaning in Modern Turkish.And since the lack of the Turkish people studying their own language,for a whole nation has not been able to bring up an expert to study their mother tongue,although the word did not mean anything it was accepted as the non-Turkish discoverer of the Orhon runes decoded it.(The guy may not have had bad intentions but I don't think he spent any effort on this word to find out what it meant.)

Anyway,as I have been able to find out the correct spelling of the word sholud be as "Kögtürk" meaning "many" or "crowded" Turks.

As we all know,through ages languages go through changes and lose some of their characteristics whilst gaining different qualities.Thus,in modern Turkish the word kög changed to the word çok(pronounced chock).

As another sample I'm gonna give you the Gobi desert.The meaning of Gobi again comes from two different words forming one word.The words are "Kög"(Çok in Modern Turkish meaning Much/Many in English) and "Biyig"(Büyük in Modern Turkish meaning Big in English).

So was it Kögbiyig in its original form and origin and it meant "much big" or simply "very big" as it in deed is one of the biggest deserts of trhe world.

So from this point we can set the link that the Kögtürks were not consist of one tribe but so many Turkish tribes and for it was a union of Turks they apparently were crowded and chose the name "Manyturks" to identify themselves as a nation.

with regards,

Erhanovich

Do you have any citation for this, or is this just your personal conjecture? -- Jmabel | Talk 05:20, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)


It sounds like the latter Refdoc 23:26, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
FTR gök means SKY also in modern Turkish, actually blue is the second meaning of the word. Also we know the Tuks were shamanist before islam and sky was holly to them also they named their god as gök-tanrı(god). --Utku5 08:14, 2 September 2005 (UTC)


In the Göktürk language, equivalent of "many" or "crowded" is "köp", not "kök". The name of old Turkic god is also "Kök Tengri". "Gök" means "Sky" in modern Turkish spoken in Turkey, in all other Turkic languages "Sky" is whether "Gök" or "Kök". "Kök Türk" means "Celestial Turks" just like "Kök Böri" means "Celestial Wolf". "Kök" refers to "Kök Tengri", the Sky God, because of this "Blue", the colour of the skies, is the traditional colour of Turic peoples. Therefore "Kök Türk" or "Kök Törük" as original, means "Blue Turks" and the colour blue is a symbol of being sacred or god related, "Kutlu" in Turkic mythology and in modern Turkic languages.Orhanoglu 17:04, 12 February 2006 (UTC)


  • IMHO the Kök/Gök = "Blue" = "East(ern)" Turks just as "white" meant "west" or "gold(en)", as in horde meant "central". Doc Rock 14:13, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Tanrı (Tengri) means god in current and ancient Turkish. And the name of the god (like Allah is Islam) is Göktanrı. Means the sky god. And since sky is blue it also means blue (like orange as a colour) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.241.220.152 (talk • contribs) 10 September 2006.

[edit] Iran/Persia

In the historical context of this article, is it really appropriate to link "Persia" to Iran? -- Jmabel | Talk 06:30, Apr 16, 2005 (UTC)


[edit] EURASIAN Articles COLLECTION

(Chinese Simplified 18030)


吐鲁番出土古代维吾尔文献

Juvaini. Rashid al-Din. Khaldun. Battuta

UNESCO Declaration on Manas Destanı

Yazijioghlu 'Ali on the Christian Turks of the Dobruja

Turkoman Tribes Within the Framework of Dede Korkut Researches

CHINESE TRAVELERS and CENTRAL ASIA in THEIR BOOKS of TRAVELS

DERVISHES IN EARLY OTTOMAN SOCIETY AND POLITICS: A STUDY OF VELAYETNAMES AS A SOURCE FOR HISTORY

CHAPTER ONE: Alpamysh and the Turkic Dastan Genre

Introduction to DEDE KORKUT (As Co-Editor) SOVIET

CHORA BATIR: A TATAR ADMONITION TO FUTURE GENERATIONS

Tibetan History

哈密回王简史

"吐鲁番" "历史" "蒙古"

長春真人西遊記一

History of the Conquest of the World is the work of Juvaini Juvayni, 'Ala' al-Din 'Ata' Malik ibn Muhammad

Hajib Kirman

Bardasir

Turk Kadin Adlari

Turk Erkek Adlari

Turk Erkek Isimleri

蒙古史藏珍

The Kwarezm-shah Empire

Turkish Music

俄罗斯历史--维基文选

Islamic Expressions

契丹图片

大漠苍狼——突厥人和突厥语

Jalayirid and Seganushka

Turkish Beyliks

Folksongs from our Altaic bretheren, the Tatar-Bashkirs of central Russia: Notice the similarities between them and Taiwanese folksongs.

Peter the Great of Russia in 1713 abolishing the Tatar "Murza" aristocracy

俄罗斯语基础

Rudeboy's Contemporary Culture and Society

Some very long books

江格尔

江格尔 汉文版

北朝胡姓与契丹, 女真, 满洲复姓考

杂放

Karadjordjevic

哈萨克,柯尔克孜,卫拉特,藏传佛教历史

大漠苍狼——突厥人和突厥语

大漠苍狼——突厥人和突厥语

日本学最佳网

The period immediately before the Toyotomi (Azuchi-Momoyama) period was the Sengoku period. There are many role playing games dedicated to it.

"喀山"

I'm very confused by the above addition. Is it supposed to be relevant to this article? Some of it looks possibly vaguely on topic, and I can't read Chinese so a lot of this means nothing to me, but, for example, as far as I know the Gokturks were never within 2,000 kilometres of the Dobruja. And role playing games about Japan? So what? A long list like this, of no clear relevance to the article, is really not very useful, since it would take hours to sort through and see if there is anything here, especially since much of it is clearly off topic. All of this seems to be links to one site, which makes me a bit suspicious, and smells of linkspam. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:38, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Bestlyriccollection, who added the above list of links, left a note on my user talk page that claims these are relevant: "I have collected these articles on Dede Korkut, Alpamysh and other Destans. Paksoy has done most of the writing. I believe these writings will be most valuable in categorizing early Turkic peoples into great federations like Gokturk, Oghuz, Qarluq etc." I'm certainly not wading through these, though someone else is more than welcome to! Again, though, some of these look to me to be of little or no relevance to this article, and it would be very useful if someone could point out which of these might actually be relevant here. -- Jmabel | Talk 17:49, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Runes

Linking "runic" to Runic alphabets seems wrong to me: that article specific to Germanic runes. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:35, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Is "Gokturkish" a word?

Can you list the primary source for the term "Gokturkish"? This should just be "Gokturk Empire". AverageTurkishJoe 03:10, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] maps

the maps on this page suck they should replaced

does anyone know the correct form of the rule't title: khan, kan, han, qan, qaghan, kaghan, khaghan, qaĝan, kaĝan, qağan, or kağan. their should be some consensus on turkic to english transcriptions for wikipedia--Gurdjieff 01:32, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

On the Orkhon inscriptions there are two titles used; Kan and Kagan. The first is inscriped as "KN" and the second as "KGN". In modern Turkish "Kan" is now "Han" and "Kagan" is "Kaan" or "Kağan" but the original titles used by Göktürks are mentioned above. Orhanoglu 14:42, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Large changes without citation

User:Gurdjieff and User:66.56.75.252 have made large changes recently, including large changes to the list of rulers, without citing a single source. Since I have almost no relevant knowledge, and the previous version did not clearly cite sources for this either, I'm not planning to change anything myself, but I would suggest that someone should come forward with some sources for what is apparently a contested matter. - Jmabel | Talk 20:32, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

reply i've done a large amount of research on the gokturks so this is from all over the internet, there were alot of organizational problems with the article. originally, i had only intended to write the bio's for the khans but i felt I had to fix some of the other problems as well. the major souces were the turkish wikipedia article and the book turks vol1--Gurdjieff 04:22, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

"the book turks vol1" means nothing. Publisher? Date?
The Turkish Wikipedia article is a reasonable place to look, but does it give any citations?
Jmabel | Talk 05:17, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] sources

The Turks / editors, Hasan Celal Güzel, C. Cem Oǧuz, Osman Karatay. Other author Güzel, Hasan Celâl. Oğuz, Cem. Karatay, Osman, 1971- Ocak, Murat. Imprint Ankara : Yeni Türkiye, 2002. ISBN 9756782552 (set)

9756782560 (v. 1) 
9756782579 (v. 2) 
9756782587 (v. 3) 
9756782595 (v. 4) 
9756782609 (v. 5) 
9756782617 (v. 6)

WorldCat no. 49960917

—This unsigned comment was added by 69.15.111.14 (talk • contribs) 27 March 2006.

[edit] Requested move

Gokturks → Göktürks – If we have articles about Polish cities with about 4 accent marks in the name, adding two umlaut(s) to the sure wouldn't hurt. After all, it is the correct spelling. Also, I believe this article was created prior to when we were using UTF-16 to store our data. —Khoikhoi 00:57, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
  • Oppose: stick with English name. Jonathunder 06:13, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Support without the umlaut it's just incorrect. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 13:14, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. If that's the proper spelling, the article should be moved. — Itai (talk) 17:20, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. Three basic reference works: Sinor (Cambridge History of Inner Asia), Christian (A History of Russia, Central Asia and Mongolia) and Unesco (History of Civilizations of Central Asia vol. III) all use ö in stead of o. Furthermore they use 'Türks' when they specifically mean the Gök empires. But there remains another problem: Gök or Kök? Gök is the modern Turkish transcription and Kök is the original, old Turkish, transcription originating from the Orkhon inscriptions. In German scientific literature 'kök' is used always, never 'gök'. Therefore I think the article should be renamed in either Kök Türks or second best Gök Türks. Guss2 20:34, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Support rename to whichever version ("Göktürks", "Gök Türks", "Kök Türks", etc) considered most accurate, so long as redirect/s from "Gokturks", "Gok Turks", "Kok Turks", etc retained or created. David Kernow 16:51, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Pro as per nom. --Matthead 21:04, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Moved, of course. —Nightstallion (?) 07:38, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Support rename to i agree with guss2 the most correct title of the article would be kök türks since this is the name THEY self-applied.--Gurdjieff 13:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Support the umlauted form. Concur with Kernow. Doc Rock 14:09, 1 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Tujue (突厥 tú jué)

The problem with using Mandarin pronounciation for Chinese characters that were chosen to represent as closely as possible the native words as heard by the Chinese recording them is that the phonetics were radically different from Mandarin. Sino- Korean and Japanese pronounciations of the Chinese characters, therefore, are extremely important in reconstructing the phonetics as they preserve these older phonemes (albeit sometimes with changes over time). 突厥 tú jué is an excellent example of this. 突厥 tú jué represented Türküt 突厥 is read in modern Korean 돌궐 = tol kwöl; however, in Middle Korean Chinese characters which in Chinese ended with a glotally stopped "t" entering tone transformed into r/l of Modern Korean (so we had, then tur kwöt, approximating Türküt much better than tú jué. Shouldn't a note about tú jué representing Türküt be included? Doc Rock 14:35, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad to see at least someone agrees with me! You see, Doc Rock, I had tried to add the information about the Sino-Korean and Sino-Japanese readings of the Chinese characters in question, but some jerk came along and reverted my edit. Check this part of the page's history:
(cur) (last) 13:50, 2 May 2006 222.165.24.196 (Talk) (remove unnecessarily addition)
(cur) (last) 16:16, 30 April 2006 67.171.213.134 (Talk)
Apparently, someone opined that information regarding a more accurate approximation of the contemporary pronunciation of the 突厥 (*Turgwŏt, *Turgwət, *Turgwet) ethnonym was an "unnecessarily addition." Also, I think it would not be too off-topic to mention that the reconstructed pronunciation of Middle Chinese 突厥 more closely resembles the name of the medieval and early modern Torghut (Manchu Turgūt) tribe, a subgroup of the Oirat (a.k.a. "Western Mongols"), than it does the name of the Turks.
Also, what is the basis for reading 突厥 as Tújué with a rising tone on both syllables in modern Mandarin? All the Mandarin speakers I know pronounce 突 as tū with a high level tone. Is some special adjustment to the pronunciation of this character made when it is found in the historical ethnonym 突厥? Ebizur 15:02, 13 November 2006 (UTC)


Interesting thing is you see nation had shore to the Japan sea and close to Korea however a contact in never mentioned. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.241.220.152 (talk • contribs) 10 September 2006.

[edit] STATE

On the "stateness" of the G's: definition: state= "a politically organized body of people under a single government".. Sounds like a Qaghanate would qualify to me. Doc Rock 02:27, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

So would you consider each of the North American First Nations a state as well? - Jmabel | Talk

If each was "a politically organized body of people under a single government," then, yes. Doc Rock 19:45, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

That is ducking the question. My point is: how organized do they have to be? How organized the government? And is there a smallest size where the term "state" is appropriate? - Jmabel | Talk 05:59, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
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