User talk:Fullstop

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This way we can avoid having unnecessarily and confusingly halved conversations on both of our talk pages. Thanks for understanding and complying!

Contents

[edit] Zoroastrianism

Hey please have a look and share your opinion on this matter: [1] --- K a s h Talk | email 17:19, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Apadana Hall picture.

You changed the picture description of Image:Persia.jpg. I wrote that : "Apadana Hall, the battle of lion (sun) and bull (moon) or the symbol of the battle between Mithra and bull." and this is from the book : "Persia: An Archaeological Guide by Sylia A. Matheson." where did you found your description? Thank you. The Unknown 03:31, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Matheson is obviously confusing the Mithra/Mihr of Persian mythology with another Mithra(s), very likely the Graeco-Roman Mithras of Mithraism, as suggested by the reference to the "symbol of the battle between Mithra and the bull". See also Tauroctony and Taurobolium. Matheson's equation of the bull with the moon is also indicative of her error: Only in Graeco-Roman Mithraic iconography are they the same: the day/sun/Mithras kills the night/moon/bull. In contrast, in Persian mythology, the two are connected in one legend, but they are certainly not the same (bull=Gavyokdat, moon=Mah). I'm sure you'll agree that its not very likely that Achaemenid-era Persian symbolism is referring to a typical icon of Graeco-Roman Mithras (instead of to a typically Persian story). -- Fullstop 11:16, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I think your right, with the evidence you've shown. But 1 question remains. If the lion is a symbol of Ahriman, then how come it's one of the main Achaemenid symbols of Persia? You could see lions all over Persepolis and on the head of columns and I don' think Darius I the Great had any favor for Ahriman. Do you know anything about this too? Thanks again for the answer. The Unknown 19:32, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't think thats necessarily contradictory. Even pictures of an "evil" lion like the one from Apadana Hall are visually distinguishable from "good" lion imagery elsewhere, which are clearly representations of power and virility. Such symbolism floats freely between the various divinities in the various cultures. It would not be unthinkable for an artist who sees something he likes produce a similar image for an altogether different god. So for instance, I've seen Ahriman depicted as a lion-headed male figure with a snake wrapped around him (I can't remember where though) which is also the imagery used for Roman Mithras and Zurvan. -- Fullstop 13:13, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mitra

Any comment you might make at Talk:Mitra would likely be valuable, especially regarding its relationship to the Mithra article. RandomCritic 21:12, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Parsi

I just saw that in the above article you had removed the interwiki to Persian Wikipedia [2]. Why did you do that? Bidabadi 18:57, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Because its not true. cf: Irani. -- Fullstop 19:18, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Have you read that page in Persian wikipedia? It's about Parsis of India (Not about those Zoroastrians who have migrated to india in the last two centuries). Bidabadi 05:01, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I misunderstood you. I thought you were referring to the langs= line of the infobox. I have no idea why the fa: line vanished, it must have been an accident during cut/paste. It was not my intention to remove it. Sorry for the trouble. -- Fullstop 08:55, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Greetings, please see Parsi for a slew of edits made by me today based on our discussions. I hope the article is in better shape now, and I've left a few pending questions or issues on the Talk page. Cheers,--Anthony Krupp 16:23, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Hey there, thanks for your comments on Parsi talk. All your suggestions and replies seem sound. Please just make changes directly to the article as you see fit. I'll watch the page, but am currently swamped in real life. Will be in touch about Lessing, etc., in due course. (Trying to finish writing a book in next two weeks.) Cheers, --Anthony Krupp 19:53, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zoroastrian fires

I would like to start an article about the most sacred/great fires of Zoroastrianism, what do you think the best name for it would be? --K a s h Talk | email 22:49, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

  • Perhaps it would be a good idea, for the beginning, to develop the existing subsection under Fire temple. If you want to only deal with the ancient "Adar xyz" (eg Adar Burzen-Mihr, Adar Farnbag, Adar Gusnasp etc) fire sites, how about "Adaran"?
  • If you want to develop it into a general overview on the Zoroastrian cult use of fire (not restricted to the great fires, but all Zoroastrian use of fire), perhaps under the name "Atash" (Ataš), which is the name of Mary Boyce's article on Zoroastrian fire in the Encyclopaedia Iranica. Or alternatively, simply "Zoroastrian fire".
-- Fullstop 10:31, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
OK I will take note of these. By the way, good job on the Zoroastrianism, we should try to put in-line references and citations and then try and boost it up to featured standard like Hinduism. Thanks, --K a s h Talk | email 16:34, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Mazdayasna

Thats fine. The "bug" I was mainly concerned with was getting the lede in formation with WP:LEDE, and to minimise or otherwise frame in context the DoF -which should probably go somewhere else to be honest. Its good to have an expert on the subject, as my expertise is limited to the form and writing part. Regards, -Ste|vertigo 17:03, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zurvan and Zurvanism: wow!

Wow! I created the Zurvanism page 18 months ago. Suddenly, in one day, it grew amazingly!

I just wanted to thank you for your work on this page! - Lawrence King 06:03, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] question

Over at Rumi, I've posted a question no one has yet answered about a minor edit war. It concerns the terms dervish, darvish, Darwīsh and درویش. I was hoping you could drop by here and explain. Thanks! -Anthony Krupp 21:52, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Anthony, you must have the wrong guy. I know next to nothing about Islam. But from what I can tell from the edit history of that article, i.e. 8 instances of 'dervish' and 1 instance of 'darvish', and that only the one instance continues to be fiddled with, I'd guess that there must be some subtle difference between the two. My 2 cents. -- Fullstop 07:50, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Outside view requested

Greetings; if you have time and are inclined, please provide comments in the Outside Perspective section of this conduct-related RfC: Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Kmaguir1. Thanks,--Anthony Krupp 17:12, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Udvada

Hi, I came here, via the Parsi talk page - noticed that you might have access to photographs of the Udvada Atash-behram .. if you do obtain and post them here, please insert on the Udvada page too. Thanks a ton Sdsouza 12:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

.. and thanks for looking over the article and making corrections Sdsouza 12:56, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History of the Kurds

Hey. There is a bit in this article that says..

"The last emperor of the Medes, Rishti Vega-Azhi Dahak (Astyages), killed Zoroaster, ruled his followers and overthrew Vishtaspa (Hystaspes). His army reached the southwest of Afghanistan. During that attack, the army of the Medes inflicted cruelties on Zoroastrians."

This must be more of a legend than "history"? What do you think? --K a s h Talk | email 13:21, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, everything to do with the life of Zoroaster is a matter of legend (is not historically documented). But the snippet you pasted above is particularly "unhistorical": a) Astyages the Median is 500 years after Hystaspes/Zoroaster b) What does a dragon have to do with anything historical? c) The Median name of the last king of the Medes was 'Ishtumegu' d) "Afghanistan" did not exist in 550 BCE.
Anyhow, in the story that I know, in the 67th year of the reign of Vishtasp, while the king was away in Sistan, a band of nomadic tribesmen under "Arjasp the Khyon" (Arejat-aspa) raided the country. During one of these incursions that a Turanian raider named Tur-Baratur killed the 77-year-old Zoroaster in Balkh.
cf: Jackson, A.V. Williams (1899). Zoroaster, the prophet of ancient Iran. New York: Columbia UP. pp. 130-131. citing Shahnameh 5.92
But to answer your question... I don't think the Shahnameh qualifies as "History". :-)
-- Fullstop 14:34, 22 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Meher Baba an Irani

Fullstop, I agree with your recent change to the Meher Baba site categories. I don't know why some people are so determined to paint Meher Baba as Irani or Parsi. Perhaps they feel it is an embarassment that he was an Indian guru, which promotes some negative stereotypes about Indian gurus. Baba's father was an Irani, but migrated before his marriage. Baba's mother was born in Bombay. Baba was born in Pune. My great-grandfather was born in Germany. Does that make me German? My great grandparents on my mother's side were born in Latvia. Does that make me Latvian? Also Baba said his favorite country was India and his birth home and place of death were India. Anyway, this goes on and on being reverted to Parsi, but I agree with you that he is at most technically Irani and not Parsi, and definitely not Persian except perhaps in an ethnic way. Chris 14:34, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your clear clarification on the Meher Baba talk page. It is long overdue. I now understand from your comments that the word "Irani" (and Parsi for the earlier migration) denotes a religious community in India and not a 'nationality' or 'ethnicity' as I had misunderstood. Chris 18:49, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A. F. S. Talyarkhan

Re your move, I think he was known by his initials (and sometimes by his nickname Bobby) and almost never by his first name. Tintin (talk) 02:29, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Reminder. Tintin (talk) 11:07, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I appear to be missing something. What is it that you would you like me to respond to? (I'm aware of what you've noted above, but don't understand what you'd like me to do) -- Fullstop 11:21, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Just wanted to be sure that you don't disagree with the move back to AFS. Tintin (talk) 11:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Aaah. I understand now. Well, I do disagree. His being known by his initials does not preclude the article appearing under his proper name. Notwithstanding that A. F. S. Talyarkhan redirects to Ardeshir Talyarkhan, a) initials look like hell in a category, b) there are a heck of a lot of variations of "A. F. S." (with[out] spaces, with[out] periods) that a user can type when searching for a name. -- Fullstop 12:16, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
As per Wikipedia:Naming conventions, the first rule followed is that 'the name of an article should be "the most common name of a person or thing"', "even if this sounds awkward for those seeing the name the first time". So we have articles like H. G. Wells, W. G. Grace instead of Herbert Wells or William Grace. WP:NAMEPEOPLE#Middle_names_-_abbreviations_of_names specifies that "For abbreviated names (if these are the most used) every abbreviation is followed by a point, and every point is followed by a single space", so it would be A. F. S. Talyarkhan. So a redirect pointing from Ardeshir to A. F. S. would be the more correct thing to do here. Tintin (talk) 12:38, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Sorry for being a nuisance again :) Shall I go ahead ? Tintin (talk) 06:54, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
sure. btw, is how a *radio* commentator *signed* his name important? Wouldn't it be better to use 'Bobby', the name he used to introduce himself over the air? -- Fullstop 07:48, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't know what he called himself (I wasn't born when he last did commentary on radio) but in cricket literature, AFS is used some three or four times as frequently as Bobby. (While google is not a reliable source for such things, in a search for Talyarkhan and cricket the two names appear in approximately the same ratio.) Tintin (talk) 08:36, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yasna vs yajna

Hi, I see that you removed the cognates Yasna and Yajna which I had put up. They were the same thing. Please see this-- ॐ Kris ( talk | contribs) 12:46, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

In your edit comment, (and again above) you note that Yasna and Yajna are "the same". They are not. "Cognate" does imply equivalence, but a linguistic relationship, which in this case is a linguistic derivation from an Indo-Iranian word for "worship." It does not even remotely imply that the worship itself is the same, or has the same origin, or the same intent.
If you read what Wikipedia has to say about the term yasna, you might notice that the Zoroastrian *service* is named after a collection of *texts* of the same name. After having determined that the sense of the word 'Yasna' in the two religions is not the same, you could read the "main article" behind the information for the Yasna *service* (which at Yasna is only a stub), which might show you that the purpose of the two procedures is also entirely different.
-- Fullstop 16:35, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks

Hi Fullstop.. Thanks a lot for your kind words at my RFA. I feel humbled and will try to continue on Wikipedia in the same manner. Please do let me know if I can be of any assistance to you whatsoever... -- Lost(talk) 11:28, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page comparison

Since you are known to be an expert on Zoroastrianism by many on here, perhaps you can help me. I found this page called Zoroastrianism and Hinduism, comparing and contrasting between the two faiths. The page was very biased, full of what I thought was Hindu nationalist POV. I edited it to conform to NPOV standards. I may be wrong in my judgment though. Could you please look at the page before any of my edits and then look at the page from my latest edit and tell me which is more accurate? Afghan Historian 20:06, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello, thanks for your work. Most of the false or doubtful information is not mine. However, I did put in that vedic religion initially didnt use idol worship. I got this from Will Duran'ts The Story of Civilization vol 1 - Our Oriental Heritage. He says Hinduism borrowed full idol worship from the Greeks via their influences on Buddhism in northwest India (Pakistan). Like you, I also had my doubts about om and "on", knowing that Om is somewhat unique to Hinduism. But, I wasnt too well read on Zoraostrianism to actually remove the sentence about the similiarity. Afghan Historian 06:52, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

little (if anything) about pre-historic Indo-Iranian religion is actually known, but given that no icons have ever been recovered from that period, it is indeed likely that idol worship was not a part of Indo-Iranian religious tradition.
However, the article in question is not on Indo-Iranian religion, or even Vedic religion in general but specifically Hinduism. Although I haven't read Durant, the hypothesis (as you present it) is valid only if Durant is speaking of Hellenistic influence (and not the Greeks) which of course occurred during Arsacid (in particular the Indo-Parthian) times. Not only is that period not pre-history, Zoroastrianism at this stage used idols/icons too (and had been doing so since at least the 4th century BCE).
Moreover, if Durant is speaking of Hellenistic influence through the Parthians and Indo-Parthians, then it might be worthwhile to remember that the Parthians were Zoroastrians too. Many "practices" that are today associated with Zoroastrianism are in fact Parthian-era developments, including Fire Temples, Towers of Silence, the Vendidad, etc. Sogdian Buddhism was indeed influenced by Parthian (hellenized) Zoroastrianism, for instance, Śakra was also known as Xwrmzt (probably pronounced Khwaramazd).
The Zoroastrian iconoclastic movement (and the subsequent decline of the temple cults) didn't gain the upper hand until about the 4th century CE, when the shrine cults were outlawed.
For an example of Zoroastrian shrine cults, see Aredvi Sura Anahita and Vahram and read the 'History and Development' section (and also description of Darb-e Mehr lower down) at Fire temple. -- Fullstop 09:36, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
ps: Moving to article talk, ok?
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