Talk:Fruitarianism

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Contents 1 Examples of successful Fruitarians 2 Criticisms 3 Motivation 4 Food Yield 5 Energy 6 Pauling 7 Weight Loss 8 Energy flow 9 Least toxins 10 Dick Gregory 11 So-called biblical references 12 B12 not limited to animal foods 13 Sources

[edit] Examples of successful Fruitarians

This section seemed like a criticism of fruitarianism, rather than the informative list of examples of fruitarians. I made appropriate changes. There are numerous well-known (amongst raw foodists and fruitarians) examples of (successful) fruitarians. I included only several, please add more. Examples of non-fruitarians and failed experiments with fruitarianism may be suitable to the Criticisms section, provided that they are well-referenced. I leave this job to others. Wekee 11 December 2006

[edit] Criticisms

I returned criticisms that were deleted without comment or an unsourced claim. All criticisms were/are properly sourced. Mdbrownmsw 21:11, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I deleted several unreferenced claims. Wekee 8 December 2006

[edit] Motivation

I am unable to find any support for the idea that Bose was knighted for "his laboratory proof of plant sentience or consciousness". In fact, he seems to have not held this particular belief at all: "He insisted that not only could no line be drawn between plants and animals but that his researches had shown there was no line between living and nonliving matter." (http://www.bookrags.com/Jagdish_Chandra_Bose) More to the point, the article states that this is a reason some people adopt a fruitarian diet, I am unable to find substantiation for this. Mdbrownmsw 13:19, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I am unable to find a source citing Isaiah 11:6-9 as a motivation for Fruitarianism, nor one which cites it as a system to return to an Eden-like paradise, nor a call for holistic living. Mdbrownmsw 13:40, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the following: "Besides all the intelectual arguments above, many raw foodists spontaneously progress to fruit-based diet ([1]). This phenomenon is seen as the evidence of frugivorous (see [2] and [3]) nature of humans."

The first source is not a says nothing about "many raw foodists spontaneously progress(ing) to (sic) fruit-based diet". (WP:OR)

The second source makes the unsourced, exceptional claim that humans naturally eat a fruit based diet. The website is not a reliable source on its own. "Exceptional claims should be supported by multiple credible and verifiable sources." Additionally, it is essentially one person's website: "A self-published source is a published source that has not been subject to any form of independent fact-checking, or where no one stands between the writer and the act of publication. It includes personal websites, and books published by vanity presses. Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, and then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources." (Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Self-published_sources)

The third source is an unsigned PDF. Not a reliable source.

None of the sources cited are reliable. "Reliability is a spectrum, and must be considered on a case-by-case basis. Typically peer reviewed publications are considered to be the most reliable, with established professional publications next. Government publications are often reliable, but governments vary widely in their level of reliability, and often have their own interests which will explicitly allow for withholding of information, or even outright deception of the public." (Wikipedia:Reliable_sources)

Mdbrownmsw 20:55, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Food Yield

I am removing this section as a possible copyright violation.

"Dr. Faust, former head of the fruit laboratories of the USDA, reported that centenarian apple trees can drop 2 tons each of fruit. ...fruit and nut trees, vines, and fruit bearing plants) can yield 450,000 pounds per acre as compared to 100 to 1000 pounds an acre for animal flesh. The orchard to slaughterhouse food ratio can be 450 to 1." (article) vs. "Animal flesh yields 100 to 1000 lbs an acre, ... Fruit (whether from vines, berry bushes, nut and fruit trees, or fruit bearing plants) can yield 450,000 lbs. an acre. Dr Faust, retired head of the USDA Fruit Labs ... has seen centenarian apple trees drop 2 tons each.... Orchard to slaughterhouse: 450 to 1....." (http://quotesland.com/view.php?do=view&quoteid=66376&curletter=N&PHPSESSID=1575c6aea30fc602d54)

Various forms of this quote exist. I am unable to find one that gives a source other than "Dr. Faust, former head of the fruit laboratories of the USDA" or "Dr. Faust, retired head of the USDA Fruit Labs." The closest I have come is one that refers to him having "recently" reported this to "Dr. Kissinger" in reference to China's egg production (which doesn't seem to be "recent", as Kissinger was relevent to China until 1977 and Dr. Faust is now dead). Mdbrownmsw 15:21, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Energy

I am unable to find this sourced. I find one chunk of text copied verbatum on various pages that cites "1/80th" vs. the articles "81 times", but no source other than "Dr. Don Meyer" (and a few alternate spellings). In any event, this discusses meat vs. vegetable production, which may be relevent for Vegetarian, but is not specific to fruitarianism.

[edit] Pauling

Pauling supported HUGE doses of vitamin C -- 18,000 mg/day vs. FDA's 60. Is his work on vitamin C "still read today"? Yes, but only because of his other work; his vitamin C work is generally considered quackery [4]

In any event, Pauling got his C from pills and suggested that promotion of "natural source" C was a scam. [5]

So he recommended taking lots of synthetic vitamin pills. Not relevant to fruitarianism. Mdbrownmsw 16:11, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Weight Loss

Hardinge's 1963 "study" was actually quoting an earlier study. Fruitarians were not included in the study. Mdbrownmsw 16:46, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Energy flow

I tried to find a source for this. Several problems: The article said: "The natural fructose in fruits has monosaccharides, disaccharides, and polysaccharides," Say what? Fructose does not "have" monosaccharides. Fructose IS a monosaccharide. And is does not "have", nor is it, disaccharides and polysaccharides.

In search of a reliable source, I came up with U C Berkeley's Wellness Letter (http://www.wellnessletter.com/html/fw/fwNut03Carbs.html) which says: "The sugar in most fruit is primarily fructose, which has few, if any, advantages over sucrose (the sugar in candy). So it doesn't matter, for instance, if your jam is sweetened with "sugar" or "fruit juice sweetener." Mdbrownmsw 17:10, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Least toxins

There might be a source for this *idea* out there, but I couldn't find it.

The section as it existed was unsourced. I found several secondary sources that gave varying reports of this. - The numbers were different from one to the next. - Only one referenced the "root, stem and branch filtration" in any way, but said it was only *systemic* insecticides. - One claimed that the cow would have 21 times the insecticide level of fruit because a 1,000 pound cow would have eaten 21,000 pounds of fruit (grass is not a fruit).[6] - Another said it was 21 times vegetables because of the same idea. - All assumed that animals absorb and hold 100% of the insecticides in foods eaten. In short, I couldn't choose one version at the expense of the others without a primary source.

[edit] Dick Gregory

I am temporarily removing Gregory's section. It says: "Dick Gregory wrote the book Dick Gregory's Natural Diet for Folks Who Eat: Cookin' With Mother Nature! about his odyssey from lacto vegetarianism to fruitarianism. He ran 3000 miles across the US on fruit juice.[citation needed]"

Numerous sources I have found so far says he ran "900 miles from Chicago to D.C., subsisting entirely on a kelp-based liquid formula".

A pro-fruitarian website [7] says flatly "(Fruitarian Dick Gregory ran 3000 miles across the U.S.)" It does not say anything about "on fruit juice" nor does it give a source. Numerous other sites (e.g., [8]) copy this claim, verbatum, with no source.

A pro-vegetarian website [9] says "(In 1974 he ran 900 miles (1450 kilometers) exclusivelyon fruit juice..." Again, no source.

Other than blogs and forums, the closest I have found is from a breatharian site [10] saying: "He is also famous for having walked and run across the United States on several occasions. In April 1971, Dick vowed not to eat any solid food until the war in Vietnam ended, and for the next four years drank fruit juices only, three days a week. In 1984, he undertook a 70-day water fast, under strict medical observation in a New Orleans hospital. He is author of "Dick Gregory’s Natural Diet for Folks Who Eat - - Cookin’ with Mother Nature."

Gregory's site [11] says only this about his diet: "In 1973, the year he released his comedy album Caught in the Act, Gregory moved with his family to Plymouth, Massachusetts, where he developed an interest in vegetarianism and became a nutritional consultant. In 1984 he founded Health Enterprises, Inc., a company that distributed weight loss products. In 1987 Gregory introduced the Slim-Safe Bahamian Diet, a powdered diet mix, which was immensely profitable." Searching his website for "fruit" and "fruitarian" I find nothing else related to this.

The closest thing I can find in the book cited says: "The more I read, the more I talked to Dr. Fulton and the more I experimented with my own diet, the closer I came to the fruitarian point of view concerning nutrition. After my first fast, I adopted a diet that included only raw foods. I became convinced I should leave my "cookin'" to Mother Nature!" Mdbrownmsw 14:17, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] So-called biblical references

Following up on two references cited under the "possible biblical references to fruitarianism", I found one to have no backing in the detailed articles about the Jewish religious group mentioned that supposedly claims fruitarianism to be comanded by God. No Bible version gives information on this group either which could be seen as supporting their connection with fruitarianism. Another reference mentioned a so-called "lost gospel" which has only ever supposedly been seen (and quoted in a book for which the reference is missing) by one single author and does not exist anywhere in the public record. It is therefore likely that even the existence of such a manuscript is fictional, or that the reference in this article was intended to promote the book mentioning that mysterious "ancient manuscript". If I claimed the Bible was missing a "lost" section mentioning road traffic, it would be similarly ridiculous to add a subheader to the "road traffic" article titled "possible biblical references", and stating that a small minority of he world's population (= me) believes that there is a "lost" section of the Bible that does talk about road traffic rules. I therefore removed the two references which were lowering the quality of the article.

90.9.147.227 08:38, 26 October 2006 (UTC)Josh McCaughlen

While I also have found no non-fruitarians who claim that the Essenes followed such a diet and that the lost gospel was likely wholly the creation of its supposed discoverer, I disagree with removing them completely.

However weak these claims are, a number of fruitarian sites present them as rationals for the diet. Hopesully the new edits make it clear that the claims are not widely accepted outside of the fruitarian community.

You are certainly correct that labeling them "Biblical" is questionable at best (Essenes are not directly referred to in any Bible I've ever encountered). As such, I have removed that heading, leaving the list of fruitarians/purported fruitarians devided between Ancient and Modern.

Mdbrownmsw 14:52, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] B12 not limited to animal foods

As stated on http://www.beyondveg.com/walsh-s/vitamin-b12/vegans-1.shtml (already a reference in the article) soy milk, other plant milks and bacteria and archaea also provide B12 B12 in animals is even synthesised by these bacteria in their digestive system, not by the animal. Teardrop onthefire 11:16, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Per the NIH, natural sources of B12 are limited to animal derived foods. Suplimented foods, such as some soy milks, cereals, etc. may contain B12.

Mdbrownmsw 17:50, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

I have removed the transitioning/frugivorous nature section due to source problems. Please see WP:RS for information on determining reliable sources. The sources that had been included fail under Using online and self-published sources. Mdbrownmsw 18:20, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I have just reverted changes citing several journal articles as justification for humans choosing fruitarianism because some primates may be frugivorous. Per WP:OR: "Wikipedia is not the place for original research. Citing sources and avoiding original research are inextricably linked: the only way to demonstrate that you are not doing original research is to cite reliable sources that provide information directly related to the topic of the article, and to adhere to what those sources say."

The articles cited say, directly or indirectly, that some primates were or might have been frugivors. HOWEVER, the article is about humans choosing fruitarianism as a diet. Unless you have and provide a reliable source saying that humans transition to a fruitarian diet because of this, you cannot add it to the article.

Not true. The articles listed mention humans and all primates having (definitely, not maybe) the fruigivorous origin! And, the only way you can find out that fruitarians stay fruitarians because they like the fruit is if you talk to them. It is unreasonable to request published papers to reference that! Obvious and well-known facts do not need scientific referencing, and there are many of those in the article anyway (without the referencing that you seem to be demanding here). Wekee

"Obvious and well-known facts do not need scientific referencing,". You may feel that this is true. However, Wikipedia standards are otherwise:

"That is, any facts, opinions, interpretations, definitions, and arguments published by Wikipedia must already have been published by a reliable publication in relation to the topic of the article." Wikipedia:No_original_research#What_is_excluded.3F

"and there are many of those in the article anyway (without the referencing that you seem to be demanding here)." If there are any here that you wish to challenge, you are welcome and encouraged to do so. Otherwise, I might get to them eventually. At the moment, though, we are discussing your edits.

Mdbrownmsw 14:10, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I repeat: : Not true. The articles listed mention humans and all primates having (definitely, not maybe) the fruigivorous origin! Read the articles, please. Wekee

Additionally, please review Wikipedia's style guide for information on how to properly cite sources. Mdbrownmsw 15:18, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

So, why there is a number of self-published websites listed as references here? Wekee

Because they have not yet been challenged. If there are any here that you wish to challenge, you are welcome and encouraged to do so.

Mdbrownmsw 14:10, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

There are several sentences in the article that are unreferenced or referenced by questionable sources, but have been included because they are well-known facts. Anyone who has lived a fruitarian lifestyle is acutely aware that the main reasons fruitarians stay fruitarians is because fruit is the most appealing type of foods. Without this statement, this article is only a colleciton of old-fashioned beliefs about fruitarianism by those who have little understanding of it. Instead of deleting a paragraph that actually brings some light to the article, find a way to improve it. Your cooperation will be appreciated. Thanks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by private (talk)

while your statement may well be true, it is important to remember that wikipedia is an encyclopedia and, as such must try to reference statements as much as possible. i know sometimes it may seem like Mdbrownmsw is only attempting to discredit fruitarianism with his cite tags and all but, ultimately, the drive to find and include quality references will only make wikipedia and this article stronger! frymaster 16:09, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Although harshly worded, the following applies:

"The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. Any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs a reliable source, which should be cited in the article. If an article topic has no reliable, third-party sources, Wikipedia should not have an article on it."

"Any edit lacking a source may be removed..."

"There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative 'I heard it somewhere' pseudo information is to be tagged with a 'needs a cite' tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced."

Wikipedia:Verifiability#Burden_of_evidence

Mdbrownmsw 19:11, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

In this case, half of this article should be removed. This article has serious flaws. The references here are self-published websites. I pointed out only a few places where references are required to validate the claims made. Enjoy! Wekee

If there are any here that you wish to challenge, you are welcome and encouraged to do so.

Mdbrownmsw 14:10, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Tell me something I don't know! :) Wekee 8 December 2006 (UTC)