Talk:Friedrich Nietzsche
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[edit] Friedrich Nietzsche removed from Wikipedia:Good articles
was formerly listed as a good article, but was removed from the listing because this article fails the first four points of a good article (it is not NPOV, completely factually accurate or well-written. It is especially not stable (as it is a highly controversial topic.)
[edit] forgotten?
There has already been a lengthy debate on anti-Semitism and N., but no mention of sexism. I don’t believe either is related to his philosophy, but of the two, his sexism seems the most glaringly obvious. So obvious, indeed, that I won’t trouble with sources. Surely the mention of one merits the other. ~ nude grey ~ 10/2
- This info was moved to Social and political views of Friedrich Nietzsche, an article which could use a great deal of improvement. — goethean ॐ 17:20, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
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- We should merge that page with Philosophy of Freidrich Nietzsche, where I've put a great deal of effort into Views of women --GoodIntentionstalk 01:36, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
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- Keep in mind that Nietzsche's aphoristic style has been interpreted and misinterpreted in countless ways over the years. Reading a single line out of context can lead to a gross misunderstanding of his thought.
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[edit] i am the cardinal
it's great to see wikipedia as the stronghold of mediocrity...--james3443
my question is that surely i must be able to put in somewhere a small quote or what ever you like to call it to explain how powerful this influence has been ... as well as living on the street in my youth and fighting for freedom of expression all my life ... i have also studied - modern political thought and contemorary political philosophy with academics at phd level at goldsmiths college university of greenwich and the open university ... these globally respected professors at these colleges became my friends as well as mentors and supervisors and if you want their names to validate my credentials you can have them ... there are many other ways that i am working alongside many others to fight for freedom of expression in this world ...
this is the forum to link our knowlege together ... ther is no such thing as objectivity in this style of writing all has a subjective dimension ... i am trying to bring the knowledge through translation and the aesthetics of music and performance to a wider audience ... i hope you can help me with this who ever you are ... the cardinal ...
- Hi. Thanks for your comment. Please understand that Nietzsche has affected the work of many people throughout the twentieth century. Can you really say, from a neutral point of view, that you are one of the (say) fifty most important of those people? (Writing from a neutral point of view is one of the founding tenets of Wikipedia, as is verifiability). We haven't mentioned, for example, Walter Benjamin, Theodore Adorno, Max Weber, or any of the many American philosophers, like Robert Solomon[1] or John D. Caputo. You added an entire paragraph on yourself, equal to the size of the paragraph on contemporary thought. Surely you are not quite that important. I urge you to be reasonable and to consider the objectives of Wikipedia. — goethean ॐ 18:57, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
thankyou Gothean for responding ... how do we say what or who is important ... a man standing in front of a tank in china ... a suicide bomber ... a man who died on a cross ... the point as marx argued is to change the world not just talk about it ... 25 years ago when 'false gestures for a devious public' and 'megomania' were released i had many death threats ... i have spent the last quater of a century learning or attempting to be objective or 'neutral' ... it might be argued that the swiss were neutral in the second world war ... it might be argued that being neutral could have seen the nazi's obliterate the jewish race ... it may be argued that being neutral is about keeping yourself safe ... so no i guess i would not argue that im being neutral ... are you
... are you staying safe ... thats ok ... but some people feel that is not the way to contribute to humanity ... i am not making a judgment here ... or do you think i ab being subjective again ... in my criticism of your stand point ... walter benjamin took a premptive strike on his life ... it turns out he did not need to ... was it important or not ... what i would say is important is we care ... and we do all that is within our power ... or within our understanding or our ability ... to show how much we care ... by taking some kind of action ... i have placed my self in a place to do this ...
i am also a youth worker who has recently taken 40 young people over to belfast from england ... we went to a school where catholic and protestant dance sing and create together ... they were so pleased to see us because they still feel isolated from the world ... their schools are still segregated ... i just organized a trip for young arab and jewish children ... who have been going to school together at a school called 'hand in hand' ... since 1997 ... to come to england at christmas 2006 ... they accepted the offer ... i raised the funding and still have it ... then i had an email from them saying they were stuck in a bunker ... because of the recent acceleration in troubles ... but would i please not forget about them ...
i have reformed 'the blood' and am going to challenge and put my self in harms way to challenge ... anywhere where people are abused ... nietzsche said he would be angry if a student of his did not learn more than he had learned ...i think i can achieve more than talk ... or die trying ... i do not consider importan ... but just an idea that feels right to me as an individual ... an individual because of a wrier like nietzsche ... strangley enough this idea feels like the most objective neutral feeling i have and yet - paradoxically - it is obviously overflowing with intent ... yes i do think i have something to add to the wikipedia page on nietzsche ... you can take your stand point even though adorno argues dialectically that there is no such thing ... but most - importantly - remember some one asked for help and you thought you knew better ... cheers the cardinal
- Another guideline on wikipedia is that you do not write about yourself - the idea is that if you are genuinely important in a field, someone else will write about you. If you write about yourself, whether you have an album about to come out or not, it smacks of vanity. --Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 22:20, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
yes unlike nietzsche i do have a vanity problem: do your research: the cardinal
- Unless you're VERY notable (which you don't seem to be) no one in the general public (i.e. apart from ur friends and family) could care less who had what influence on you when. I suggest you write something up and post it in a blog, or ur personal website or something. Wikipedia is not the place. Mikker (...) 22:37, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
read my response to Gothean about what is important or notable: the cardinal
ty: the cardinal
i still think the point is being missed here ... all writers performers etc etc ... have arrogance ... vanity if you will ... it is this character-spirit that drives them ... that encourages them to question their own ethics and the ethics of others ... alongside the incrediblie technological communications age we dwell in now ... there are many people who have also changed and those changes are important to record and explore ... all i am trying to do is explore ... and leave an ethnographic statement of that exploration ... i do not compare myself to anyone else ... i am both a zombie and unique at the same time ... all i am trying to do is identify what has happened tom me ... because of others ... because of my self ... how i have coped with this/that journey ... how i feel about the journey i am at this moment in now ... i feel a responsibility to do this ... wikipedia is a wondrous idea ... i am just challenging its flexibility to adapt ... to remain multi dimensional ... to be perpetually chameleonic ... whilst remaining authentic to the discourse and reflexivity of humanity and thereto the history of humankind as it unfolds ... cheers the cardinal
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- Firstly its nice to hear about somebody affected by Nietzsche who's not a normal academic living a life of timid sensibility. Also Could you, or anybody else, cite where Nietzsche expressed anger at any student of his not learning more than him?Itafroma 16:19, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
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Nietzsche said this at the beginning of ecce homo ... i can not remember it verbatum ... and i do not have the book to hand ... the cardinal
- He'as referring to where Nietzsche quotes Zarathustra in Ecce Homo (and the corresponding passage in Zarathustra) where Z says that it is a poor student that doesn't surpass his master, or somesuch. Jung also quoted it when breaking with Freud, for similarily grandiose reasons I'd imagine. --GoodIntentionstalk 03:07, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
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- Thanks.Itafroma 16:58, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
This guy, the cardinal (what a name), makes me laugh. Nietzsche would have spat on you. Nietzsche hated followers. If you have read him, you should know this. And have you considered the way you talk? It's like the whole universe revolves around you. If this is an adaptation of Nietzsche's style of writing, you've failed at it, cardinal. Nietzsche never made himself a martyr in his any of his writings. He said himself in The Twilight of the Idols that people mistakenly estimate the value of martyrs, their beliefs or their cause because of the blood they shed. Just look at the way you talk, how you mention all your great deeds and selflessness, it's exactly what Nietzsche hates in a human being. So, it's just appropriate that whatever you added on Nietzsche's article be deleted. If you want to be important, strive hard to establish your name on whatever field you think you are interested in. And then someday, perhaps when you've already gone nuts like Nietzsche, perhaps you'll be famous, and then we can consider adding a whole paragraph about yourself on Nietzsche's page. Moonwalkerwiz 06:04, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
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- Quoted the best I can: "A pupil who remains a student is a disappointment to his master." Kevin Baastalk 17:27, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Self Importance
Schopenhauer described the loss of selfishness as the way to lead a moral and good life. According to him, egoism and selfishness are the prime causes of much pain and suffering in the world. The best people, for him, are those who deny themselves, like saints. Nietzsche reacted to this in a polar opposite, 180° manner. Nietzsche wanted a celebration and aggrandizement of the self. He considered selflessness to be a sickness. The highest types of humanity, according to Nietzsche, should exercise their will to power and affirm themselves. This doctrine of Nietzsche has never failed to attract people who feel themselves to be above most other humans. It has encouraged their self-absorption and justified their lack of compassion or concern for people other than themselves. In 1924, the Leopold and Loeb crime brought general disapproval of Nietzsche because he was one of the criminals' favorite authors and his teachings were thought to have contributed to the murder. In Germany,the National Socialists agreed with Nietzsche's praise of egoism and had no reservations about killing their opponents. The ethics of Schopenhauer and Nietzsche are directly opposite each other. Nietzsche's extreme affirmation of the self developed as a direct protest against Schopenhauer's extreme denial of the self.Lestrade 17:45, 11 October 2006 (UTC)L
- Yes... and? Are you trying to do something more than add to the volumnious ranks of Nietzsche interpretation? --GoodIntentionstalk 03:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree with you but the point should be made that the reason for this is because N's is an open philosophy. That is, after all, why we are all here!
And if we're going to mention egoism gone wrong, shouldn't we also mention it as a peculiarity that accompanies great artistic deeds?
Also, isn't the doctrine of Self Overcoming rather like certain Buddist doctrines, rather similar to S after all - though be it - perverted? I don’t interpret quite the polarity that you do. Nevertheless, it would be rather ironic, as S was a notorious glutton and N a stoic in life. Just some self-important thoughts. ~nude grey~
you could argue that nietzsche was a 'glutton' for punishment and that through that struggle you become a glutton for life ... whence a glutton for life thereto you strive to make that which you are a glutton for incredible ... so incredible that you encourage others to strive toward it ... in is the reflection o humanity that you see in your own soul ...
gosh, despite your syntax ... I think I understand what you are getting at ... perhaps the virtue of struggle itself? but this isn’t the forum for such highly enjoyable debates. I’m more curious about the stated polarity between S and N and if this is ultimately true. My concern is that as the poster might be presenting a biased view that cleverly slanders N. I too think it’s interesting that so many bad guys invoke N’s philosophy as an excuse to commit dubious deeds ... and conversely people dismiss his thoughts because of this. And yet the same is never charged of Machiavelli or Plato. Perhaps it has something to do with N’s very paradoxical rhetoric. And then the page is looking pretty good too.
~nude grey~
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- If you read Schopenhauer and Nietzsche, you will learn that Schopenhauer praised self-denial and turning against the will to live. Nietzsche admitted that Schopenhauer was a very, very strong influence on him. Nietzsche reacted against Schopenhauer by praising self-affirmation and saying "yes" to life, in spite of some of its horrible qualities. By reading both authors, you will be able to see for yourself that Nietzsche's attitude was the exact opposite extreme of Schopenhauer's ethics.Lestrade 00:16, 16 October 2006 (UTC)Lestrade
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ha, ha ... yes i prefer my information come from the texts rather than shadowy pedants disguising value judgments in over-simplified scholarship. you fail to grasp the nuance involved. the Ubermensch is exactly that: the Over-man: the Self-overcame ... the denier and creator of the new will. there is a transcendental similarity here to S. ~nude grey~
[edit] Cultural depictions of Friedrich Nietzsche
I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 17:44, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Nietzsche and Nazism
It is good that this article has been delisted, and I hope someone with expertise can correct it, or at least add the appropriate contrary arguments. Its total exoneration of Nietzsche's influence on the development of Nazism is absurd. Indeed, he died decades before the Nazis rose to prominence, and could not have forseen the consequences of his ideas. No one knows what his view of the Nazis might have been, and he may in fact have disapproved of them. However, to expunge from his record the clear, unavoidable fact that his ideas were primary in their influence on the eventual ideology of the Nazis is to engage in outright dishonesty. It is dishonesty of an extremely dangerous sort, because someone approaching Nietzsche without the benfit of hindsight might be more inclined than they should be to embrace his ideas uncritically.
Specifically, Nietzsche's primary argument—the rejection of morality in favor of "evolutionary advancement" through any means, leading to his concept of the "Űber-Mensch"—cannot be seen as anything other than the genesis, and the absolute underpinning, of the Nazis' "Master Race". While there are many other examples of his influence, to whitewash this primary aspect out of his record is particularly unthinkable.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.142.130.45 (talk • contribs).
- Your description of Nietzsche bears an inverse relation to his actual ideas. The Nazi situation is well treated in the 'influence and reception' section. Maybe we should add a sentence in the intro referring to the abuse of Nietzsche's ideas by the Nazis and others. — goethean ॐ 21:34, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
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- If my description of his ideas is inaccurate, I would greatly appreciate your correction. I think it is exactly correct. If you want to argue how his relationship to Nazism should be viewed and described, there is plenty of room for divergence. While Nietzsche himself may have protested that he was not an anti-semite, that is in some ways irrelevant to examinig his influence on Nazism. It could be argued that the Nazis took his philosophy and applied it in a way that Nietzsche would not have approved. However, it cannot be argued that it was, in large part, his philosophy that they applied. If, for example, the Nazis had given an IQ test to all of Germany and eliminated anyone who fell below a certain score, regardless of race, perhaps that would have been closer to what Nietzsche advocated. That does not change the fact that evolutionary supremacy, acheived by any means neccessary, unhindered by morality, in pursuit of a new racial ideal was at the core of everything Nietzsche believed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.142.130.30 (talk • contribs).
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- Sign your comments by concluding them with four tildes. Cka3n 00:27, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
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- Besides, this is clearly not a matter for Wikipedia to resolve. Us saying it cannot be argued or it must be so does not change the state of affairs. Where there is significant controversy, we should report it as such. The current version of "Nietzsche's influence and reception" suggests the connection between Nietzsche and Nazism, but does so in a way that depicts the association as one arising from misinterpretation (perhaps purposeful) of the scholar. If there is a significant strain of academic (or popular) thought and publication suggesting that the connection was a valid one, let's edit to include that. If, however, that view is a view held only by a very limited few, it should be excluded. Even if those few are correct, Wikipedia is not the proper field for their fight.Cka3n 00:31, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
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- I am not an expert in this field, but quick research suggests that scholars are about equally divided in thirds on the issue-- roughly a third taking the position that Nietzsche's philosophy and Nazism are one and the same, a third taking the dismissive position espoused in this article, and a third taking a middle view. If that is the case, the article absolutely should reflect it.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.142.130.30 (talk • contribs).
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- I did not do his research, but even the favorably disposed introduction to the Clark and Swensen translation of GM notes that "the Nazi charge, seemingly put to rest forever by Kaufmann, has reappeared. ... In short, ... Nietzsche is far from being an uncontroversial figure." (xiv). Thus it is no fantasy to suggest that there is a viable, extant academic strain still associating Nietzsche with the Nazis (even if indirectly), and it is mere fantasy to pretend that such a position was never the dominant academic understanding. Hence, "the article absolutely should reflect [these facts]." That said, I don't know that the fact that there was a serious position previously or that there is now some limited debate merits the placement of this "controversy" at the top of the article instead of in the sub-section you suggested previously. Cka3n 21:39, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
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- However, it may be appropriate, given the extent and effect of the prior accepted association of Nietzsche with the Nazis, to include a reference thereto in this sentence: "Although largely overlooked during his short yet productive working life, which ended with a mental collapse in 1889, Nietzsche received recognition during the first half of the 20th century in German, French, and British intellectual circles, and by the second half of the 20th century he became regarded as a highly significant and influential figure in modern philosophy." Perhaps: "Nietzsche was largely overlooked during his short yet productive working life, which ended with a mental collapse in 1889. Nietzsche received recognition during the first half of the 20th century in German, French, and British intellectual circles, gaining notoriety for the adoption of his name by the Nazi party, and by the second half of the 20th century he became regarded as a highly significant and influential figure in modern philosophy." Cka3n 21:45, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- For the pre-Kaufmann attitude, read Crane Brinton; but I wouldn't include any of that material. Septentrionalis 21:53, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- However, it may be appropriate, given the extent and effect of the prior accepted association of Nietzsche with the Nazis, to include a reference thereto in this sentence: "Although largely overlooked during his short yet productive working life, which ended with a mental collapse in 1889, Nietzsche received recognition during the first half of the 20th century in German, French, and British intellectual circles, and by the second half of the 20th century he became regarded as a highly significant and influential figure in modern philosophy." Perhaps: "Nietzsche was largely overlooked during his short yet productive working life, which ended with a mental collapse in 1889. Nietzsche received recognition during the first half of the 20th century in German, French, and British intellectual circles, gaining notoriety for the adoption of his name by the Nazi party, and by the second half of the 20th century he became regarded as a highly significant and influential figure in modern philosophy." Cka3n 21:45, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
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- As I have said, I'm not an expert in the field by any means, but having read a reasonably substantial amount of Nietzsche's material, it is impossible for me to comprehend that the spectre of Nazism does not leap off the page and sieze any reader by the throat. I am sure his extreme hostility to religion is particularly enticing to many modern day "scholars", but to go to such great contortions as to totally sever any causal link between Nietzsche in the Nazis is not only absurd but—as I said—potentially dangerous, in my opinion. I think the paragraph I inserted was a good start, although by no means definitive. To me, the content and placement was wholly appropriate, while the wording may be arguable.67.142.130.38 22:19, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
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- Would the wording I suggesting (including the reference in the sentences at the end of the first paragraph) be acceptable if combined with the fuller exposition in a sub-section?Cka3n 22:49, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
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- Any movement in that direction would be an improvement, in my opinion.67.142.130.32 18:20, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
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- That's fine with me. — goethean ॐ 19:00, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
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- I still think the "influence and reception" section is deeply flawed. There should be a separate section devoted specifically to the relationship between Nietzsche and Nazism, and the controversies involved.67.142.130.31 22:26, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
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- That's fine with me. — goethean ॐ 19:00, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
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- There is nothing inherently nazistic about Nietzsche, the will to power or the notion of the overman. bear in mind that his sister marketed him that way after his death to suit her own racist views and the nazis tried to adopt him as one of their own. i am convinced that he would have abhorred the militarism and ruthless totalitarianism of the nazi movement.Chappyone 06:34, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Needs more bread on its bones
this article does -- Chris 18:59, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Nietzsche's classical "discovery"???
In the section on Nietzsche's move to Basel it is stated that "During his philological work in Basel he discovered that the ancient poetic meter related only to the length of syllables, different from the modern, accentuating meter."
This is something that every schoolboy from the Dark Ages (to mark the exact time when accentual meter began to be used in the Romance languages) knew; in Constantinople ditto. It's no discovery at all.
The inserter of this statement must be referring to something and perhaps got it garbled. What could this statement be trying to refer to in reality?
Ottocs 09:33, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
- Maybe this was known in Constantinopel, Athens and Rome from the Dark Ages - but it was NOT known to German philologists in the 19th century. That is the point. See Nietzsche's letter to Carl Fuchs from April 1886 about this topic. --Klingsor 21:26, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Biased article. Why are there no critics of Nietzsche listed
Why are there no critics of Nietzsche listed? ken 21:47, 11 November 2006 (UTC)kdbuffalo
[edit] Link Spamming
Ok, I spammed the entire article with links to polemic. I don't know if I should have, if you want, be bold and revert everything but the first link. -Slash- 05:56, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Philosophy
Also, the article needs a clear link to the philosophy article. -Slash- 03:44, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Understatement
By the second half of the 20th century he had become regarded as a highly significant and influential figure in modern philosophy. Last sentence of the intro paragraph, understatement of the 20th century? How about him founding and introducing the very concepts that we consider modern philosophy. He was years ahead of his time and advanced philosophy further than anyone had or has.
- No, actually, the article was right in saying that "Nietzsche's contemporaries largely overlooked him during his short yet productive working life, which ended with a mental collapse in 1889." His books didn't even sell well. And modern philosophy's champion is not Nietzsche, but rather one of Nietzche's "impossibles," Kant. Nietzsche would be more in line with postmodern philosophy, having influenced its supposed contributors like Heidegger, Foucault and Derrida. Moonwalkerwiz 04:58, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Influence. Yeah, Sure
I would love to know specifically, and in a bit of detail, how those rock "musicians" and entertainers were influenced by Nietzsche. Could it be that they make the claim in order to seem more interesting? I would bet that most of them are illiterate (or dyslexic, as is the fashion), and have never understood even one of Nietzsche's sentences.Lestrade 23:49, 23 November 2006 (UTC)Lestrade
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- Today, December 13, 2006, is the day that "black metal bands" have been included as those who have been influenced by Nietzsche. I am closely watching every episode of The Simpsons, in case Bart ever mentions Nietzsche, so that I can include it here. Also, there might be a mention in that universally-referenced film The Matrix. I expect that some rapper, maybe the thug 50 Cent, will someday mention the German philosopher. Is there a way that someone can specify the reason for the influence in popular culture? A mere mention does not seem to be a very profound influence.Lestrade 15:16, 13 December 2006 (UTC)Lestrade
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[edit] Organized debate
I added a template for an organized debate on Nietzsche. One of the goals of this debate is to improve the contents of an article. This talk page is overcrowded with templates at the moment. Perhaps some of the templates can be merged or removed.--Daanschr 16:09, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Nietzsche - Polish?
I have read most of Nietzsche's Why I am so Wise and, although I have left the book at home and am now at the University of Guelph, I believe that Nietzsche claimed to be Polish in the book. I recall him claiming to be purely Polish and not in the least German. Nietzsche went on to insult German diet and claimed it was a cause of their rigid disposition (these are not his words, but they are of a similar affect).
I hate to make these claims without the book on hand to site, but if anyone does have a copy of the work in question, it would be an interesting addition to the page to note that Nietzsche claimed to be Polish, perhaps an early sign of psychological illness.
JackdeGaul 08:29, 3 December 2006 (UTC)JackdeGaul
- Or because of his anti-nationalism.--Daanschr 13:07, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
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- Discussed at length here, here, here and here with most of the relevant sources. Why I am so wise is not a book by Nietzsche, but a chapter in Ecce Homo.--Chef aka Pangloss 17:14, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Music
Could someone add something about his musical work please? XdiabolicalX 22:49, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
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