Wikipedia talk:French Collaboration Project

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[edit] French Collaboration Project draft

This is a working draft for a proposed French collaboration project. See User talk:Cedar-Guardian for discussion of this project. This draft borrows heavily from Wikipedia:Spanish Translation of the Week, but is also behoven to other user's suggestions. --NYArtsnWords 16 December 2005 (UTC)

I would like that this project emphasises on French translation and not on France-related articles like it's stated on the page that you've created. Since the main source of nomination are French featured articles, very few of them are related to this country. And also, is archiving or moving failed nominations really necessary? It may be less complicated if they just be deleted. Anyway, I want to congratulate you for the great progress in this project. CG 19:53, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Maybe instead of there being an archive of failed nominations, we could have a list of the past articles we've worked on. The other suggestion I have is to put the other French-related collaborations in template style à la the main collaborations template. What we have so far looks really good. --Frenchgeek 21:53, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
I'll try to find time this weekend to pull out the "other French related collaborations" and put them into a small template. -- NYArtsnWords 18:55, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
Oh, I see that the "other French related collaborations" section has been completely eliminated in the latest edits. I have to say that I don't entirely agree with this, for there is a great need in the English wiki -- in addition to French translation -- for coordination and collaboration concerning articles, categories, stubs and templates related to France and the Francophone world (especially given the terrible style of so many of those 1911 Britanica articles!). I also wish that the question had been discussed a bit so that the group could have reached a consensus... But if the French Collaboration Project is to remain uniquely focused on language translation, then maybe something like a Wikipedia:France and Francophone notice board might serve a purpose? --NYArtsnWords 09:05, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
Once again, I'm sorry. I thought that the edit summary was enough. But, like I said I would like this project to focus on translation of any article of any subject, and not France-related articles. CG 14:05, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

CG - I was just wondering... why did you get rid of the "List of High Priority Translations"?

original text of second sentence : The French Collaboration Project maintains both a list of High Priority Translations (that anyone is encouraged to work on at any time) and (chosen from this list) a selected Translation of the Month.

This was a concession I put in the project for those people who don't necessarily want to work on only the Translation of the Month (see your talkpage). Maybe this idea can be put back in some how?

Also - I don't see why a link to the Portal:France in a "See also" section at the bottom of the project page compromises in any way the project's emphasis on French translation, especially if other links are also placed there, like Portal:Quebec, etc. Just my 2 cents. --NYArtsnWords 22:57, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

I've been very busy this week, so I wasn't able to answer. I'm also sorry for deleting without explaining. First, I've found the link to Portal:France unnecessary since this project should be for translation and not to improve France-related articles. As for the 'High Priority Translations, I really forgot why I've deleted it. Anyway, If you want you can put it agin. Great progress in this project, I would like to see it launched soon. CG 15:10, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the feedback. I've put the "High Priority Translations" back in. Before full launch, let's try and get everyone who said they were interested to give the project page a look over and to include their names to the translators section. -- NYArtsnWords 18:55, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I still think we're starting off a bit high here; I would put more emphasis on translating even smaller, not featured type articles. I've quite a bit of experience in the German/ English translation department, and to translate a lenghty, or perhaps even featurd article can take up to one year. Lectonar 08:56, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Wow, that's a long time! I'm not a professional translator, but I've done some translating, of several types of texts (not in Wikipedia), and it usually takes a few hours at the most. Of course, it all depends on the lenght of the text (some featured articles can be quite, quite long) and the complexity of it. I suppose there could be a "trial translation" of a featured article. If it appears to be more than the people involved can handle, then we can take a step back and reevaluate our strategy. Lectonar is the voice of experience though. I wouldn't oppose a first stage in which smaller articles are translated, as a test. But still, it would only be worth translating the topics that don't exist on the en.wp, or that are far better developed on the fr.wp. The screening process is pivotal to ensure that this project really helps advance the general quality of coverage of the en.wp. Regards, Redux 01:21, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
I must take issue with these comments. For someone who reads the source language (French) with ease and speaks the target language fluently (English) then translating a very long article is a matter of hours, not days, as any translator would tell you. However, if this is true for someone who reads French as quickly as (s)he reads English, it is most certainly false for someone who struggles through French texts, mentally translating them instead of reading them. Such individuals, provided that they can translate, albeit slowly are more than welcome here, but for those whose knowledge of French is a bit better, long articles are no problem. I must say that I find it quite shocking that Lectonar claims that he needs a year to translate a long French article into English yet gives himself a level of 4 in French and 3 in English. I'm not trying to be critical of his or her skills -- it would take me ages to translate a long German article into English, but I just don't know if the numerical self-administered language ratings really match with the 'one year' statement. But if he/she feels more comfortable with shorter articles, then well, there are plenty of those that need translating:) --Zantastik 18:48, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
Sorry about the very late reaction, but as I'm personally in deep trouble, I'll keep the answer short: I wasn't aware that my English was that bad :))...did I mention once that it takes me a year to translate an article? I was merely speaking out of experience in my doings at the German-/English translation department, where it took months if not years to have some articles translated (see Charlotte von Mahlsdorf). And not everyone learns a language via translating it first (have a look at my user-page, and look up the school I went to); I must say I was kind of miffed about the comments above, but as always: assume good faith Lectonar 12:47, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Maria Sibylla Merian

I've translated some stuff from there, could someone check over it, and let me know if the translation is good enough and if its worth me continuing in this project. I realise there will be some mistakes, but if you think its so bad that you have to start again, let me know :) - FrancisTyers 17:49, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

I can't go back and verify the translation line-by-line from the FR article, but I have copyedited the English, and the article reads wonderfully, with much enhanced detail. Thank you for adding the images to the EN version as well! Great job! Mamawrites 13:29, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the copyedit, there is still some stuff left to translate and it would be nice if we could get the quotes German -> English instead of German -> French -> English. Thanks for the compliment too :) - FrancisTyers 14:54, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Template created

I've created all the templates necessary for the project. Any last comments? CG 22:23, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't know if it belongs on the main page, but when I have used fr: or de: as sources, I use google or Altavista to do the heavy lifting, and then copyedit the result, referring to the original. Much easier. Wizzy…☎ 17:29, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
And much more error prone.
I must say that I am very much opposed to this process as running a text through a mechnical translator and then giving it copyedit is bound to lead to some very serious distortions and changes in meaning and should be forbidden. It is better not to have an article translated into English than to risk having one in English with a couple of hidden errors that don't look like errors, since they'll be re-written in natural english. A quick example -- a google translates the phrase "Il s'en fut" as "He was." In fact, it means "he left." Unfortunately, someone copyediting a mechanical translation might simply think that "he was" needed no work. Wikipedia should strive to produce quality articles, and for the time being, running an article through google's translator and editing it afterwards just isn't going to cut it. This is an idea that needs to be strongly discouraged. --Zantastik 18:58, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
I agree, if you don't understand it, don't translate it. I sometimes use online dictionaries/translators to check up words, but often they just aren't up to scratch. Of course mistakes can still be made in translation so sometimes I run it through google translator for a brief check but I always err on the side of my translation rather than theirs. - FrancisTyers 20:23, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
No please, don't use translators. They're horrible when using them with full sentences or paragraphs. If you're eager to get it translated, just ask one of the translators in this project. CG 08:02, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Featured article?

I must say that I was a bit shocked upon reading the following:

Once the article is satisfactorily translated, proof-read, wikified and adapted to the English Wikipedia, then, if appropriate, the article should be nominated as a featured article.

Unfortunately, very few articles from the French wikipedia would be accepted as featured articles on either the German or English wikipedia as the latter two's standards are simply much higher. Keep in mind that this remark applies to articles de qualité as well as "normal" articles in the French wikipedia. While the text I have quoted above does not give bad advice -- it includes the proviso "if appropriate" -- it seems to suggest that often all we'll need to do is to translate a reasonably good French article, rework it a bit and it'll be well on the road to featured status. Anyone who thinks this will be in for a very rude awakening, I fear. (By the way, I've commented on FR and several people have agreed with me here, that is, that the standards for Articles de Qualité need to be improved. It's one of the things that's holding back this version of wikipedia). At any rate, unless someone can present me with a good reason to keep this above-quoted sentence, I'm going to modify it a bit.

--Zantastik 18:37, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Zantastik - I don't see any reason why you shouldn't modify it (the sentence is only there because it was part of the Spanish Translation page which was the model for this one). -- NYArtsnWords 19:58, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
Yes, we're now still in the phase of deleting, adding and modifying. be bold. CG 08:03, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Templates

Could we model our templates off of something more appealing than the Spanish one? Wikipedia:Texan Collaboration of the Month has a decent one. Use a flag or some notable symbol... granted there are many French speaking countries so I suppose this is like the controversy on the commons. It's not a big deal... but, does anyone else find them ugly?

Yes, I wanted to create templates that are similar to the French flag (see the templates used in fr:Jacques Chirac). But unfortunatly, I'm not a professional in Wiki-syntax. If you want, you can always make your changes. CG 18:59, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
My worry about the flag was that some users might object since the French flag is for France... and the French language is for France, much of West Africa, Quebec, etc. I personally don't mind using the flag but I'd like to make sure everyone agrees. gren グレン 19:06, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps if we had a world map highlighting La Francophonie? - FrancisTyers 19:25, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
I found both and relevant though I prefer the symbol for consistency reasons. I agree with Gren about some objectiosn we may encounter. Cheers -- Szvest 23:01, 1 January 2006 (UTC) Wiki me up™
I think the symbol would be pretty good - FrancisTyers 23:11, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree. I think we could do much more with the symbol than with the map. Frenchgeek 05:47, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
One more wagon to the train. Cheers -- Szvest 05:56, 2 January 2006 (UTC)Wiki me up™
What about using the Fleur-de-Lis? --JTBurman 23:11, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree with JTBurman. I think the Fleur-de-Lis is politically neutral enough while still being an immediately recognizable symbol for the French language. --Daedalus101 14:08, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Collaboration

While looking at Communes of the Seine-et-Marne département and thinking of maintenance collaborations I had another idea. While a real translation project is probably the best idea (and main focus), could we not have a little maintenance translation project monthly, or biweekly. Translating a commune page is incredibly easy since most of them have only a template which can be copied and pasted to Template:French commune with little effort and a stock sentence which you can actually copy and paste from one to another just changing article title. I have started on the list for Sein-et-Marne and I think it would be more heartening if any of us working on communes tries to get one list done rather than make little dents in lists all over the place. If one of the articles has a bunch of translating to do then skip it and go onto the next if you don't want to translate too much. Just an idea. gren グレン 11:19, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quick note

Just a quick note: The new collaboration of the month will be choosen in January 14. That is 7 days after the first nominations. I hope it's OK. CG 11:24, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

It is January 14, and there's a tie between Freedom and Little boy. Since these two articles were nominated at the same time, an extra 5 days will be given, if there's still a tie, the two articles are chosen. CG 14:19, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How is the collaboration meant to work?

Sorry, but I'm a bit vague about how the collaboration is meant to work. Presumably if several people just start away on translating the article there will be a lot of needless reduplication of work. Should someone take responsibility for producing a first draft, or different people take responsibility for proucing first drafts of different sections, after which the normal wiki-editing process will take care of refining the translations? Or else how will it work? Palmiro | Talk 16:01, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

  • Here's a proposal:
    1. Append the French text as a comment in the article (done)
    2. Provide an initial translation in the comment (done)
    3. Move the new paragraphs as needed to the body of the article, removing duplicate parts
    4. Copyedit, cleanup

Ze miguel 11:04, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your work, but I can't find the initial translation you talked about. CG 20:28, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
CG, it's this revision: [1]. Ze miguel 09:33, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] France-related topics notice board

I have set up a Wikipedia:France-related topics notice board, which includes links to relevant wikiprojects (like the communes project listed above and the FCP) and which could become a forum for expanding France-related articles in the English wikipedia. I hope that others will find it useful and I encourage Francophiles to participate. --NYArtsnWords 20:45, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Status of project

What is the status of this project? Things seemed to have stalled somewhat. Frenchgeek 04:14, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article Translation

I wasn't sure where to put this so here you go.

I think the following article would be useful to have in French: COMILOG_Cableway. Waarmstr 13:33, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

You should request it at fr:Projet:Traduction/Demandes. --Mathew5000 19:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Translation Templates

I found code for other languages to English, but is there a template for English articles that should be translated into other languages? {{Translation request|LANGUAGE}} Waarmstr 13:33, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] comment by User:Wser from top of main page

I wanted to take on this project, but as soon as I started reorganising this page, and another similar one, it got reverted...so I gave up. However, I am still willing to translate, and so I have set up a special page on my profile (User:Wser/French_translation).

[edit] Project directory

Hello. The WikiProject Council has recently updated the Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory. This new directory includes a variety of categories and subcategories which will, with luck, potentially draw new members to the projects who are interested in those specific subjects. Please review the directory and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. It is my hope that all the changes to the directory can be finished by the first of next month. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 13:43, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject France

A proposal has been made for the above WikiProject at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Council/Proposals#France. Have a look and feel free to contribute. STTW (talk) 18:16, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

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