Talk:Freemasonry under Totalitarian Regimes

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Contents 1 Reversion 2 Quisling and Norway 3 Why is Germany POV? 4 Germany rewrite 5 cat problem 6 Spain 7 Multiple Quotes 8 More German stuff 9 Fact tags

[edit] Reversion

"Freemasonry was suppressed in some Iron Curtain countries in the Communist era, with notable exeptions being East Germany, Romania, Yugoslavia, and Cuba. The founder of the Red Army in the Soviet Union, Leon Trotsky, was a Freemason as were a number of overseas trade and diplomatic supporters such as Armand Hammer, Victor Rothschild, and the Rockefeller Foundation."

First of all, Here's info on Trotsky: [1]. He was a Bolshevik, and not a Freemason. The other uncited info has nothing to do with the article. MSJapan 14:22, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quisling and Norway

The best idea I thikn is to let this sit until Wegian gets back, but I know Quisling dismantled Freemasonry in Norway as either appeasement of or an alliance with the Nazis. So, do we want to consider it a separate item, or part of the Germany section? MSJapan 03:10, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

whoops, didn't notice someone had asked. I seem to rememeber that the occuping germans closed down the logdes _before_ Quisling became "Minister President". The lodges was shut down in the summer of 1940, AFAIR, and Quisling wasn't allowed by the Germans to 'take over' until 1942 (well, he tried to establish himself as the Fører of Norway right after the invation, but the Germans didn't let him). However, I'll visit the Museum of the Order next time I'm in Oslo and see if I can't find the date (or I'll email the curator and ask) Masonry was ordered to shut down in Norway. WegianWarrior 03:16, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I could have looked in the bookshelf in the first place... okay, here is the facts, as given in Den Norske Store Landsloge 1891-1966, by Kr. Thorbjørnsen, printed by Merkur Boktrykkeri, Oslo 1966 (freely translated and summarised):

The 'Stamhuset' (Masonic hall in Oslo) was occupied by german troops on April 9th, 1940 (the day the germans invaded Norway, see Operation Weserübung). They pillaged, burned and vandalised, and keept this up during the summer. After negotiations between Br. Larurantzon (on behalf of the High Concil) and the Wehrmacht, the german troops vacanted the building in July, offering 4.500 kroners as 'reimbursemt' for the wantom destruction. There was some hope that the lodgework could be continued, but on 20th September 1940 Reichskommissar Josef Terboven ordered all the lodged closed and disolved, and the assets owned by the Grand Lodge of Norway seized. The Masonic hall in Oslo (and presumably elsewhere) was handed over to Nasjonal Samling (norwegian nazi-party, known as NS). On 1st December 1940 a 'revealing' exhibition was opened in part of the masonic hall to 'reveal' the 'terrible' secrets of Masonry. THe exhibit was held open for a month. In June 1941, the Reichskommissar formaly handed the seized assets from the Grand Lodge to NS.

Without going into furhter details (like the grand plans the NS had to turn the Masonic Hall in Oslo into a resturant complex, which really messed up the inside of the building), it is quite clear that it was the German occupants who dismantled the Norwegian Grand Lodge (allthought NS later tried to claim the glory), and not Quisling. In fact, there are some passages in the book I've taken this information from that might suggest that Quisling on his own wasn't terrible opposed to Masonry, and that he activly tried to recruit former Masons to NS.

I hope someone else can incorporate this into the proper place in the article, I'm not sure where this should best be placed either. WegianWarrior 06:56, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why is Germany POV?

The allegation doesn't appear in the cited article (which is from 1941, not the 50s), and Bernheim is clearly stating that although a letter of support was sent, Masonry was dormant in Germany. Rudolph von Sebbetendorff (or Sebottendorff, either works) is a direct lift from FreemasonryWatch (Google it), and there are plenty of other sources that disprove it (same google) such as: "Sebottendorff's real association with Freemasonry is difficult to determine, although it appears that he was initiated into an irregular body of the Rite of Memphis under the Grand Orient of France." from here. So, i would say that once again, POV dispute is from a disreputable source and is thus manufactured to make a point rather than disseminate facts. MSJapan 03:21, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

The allegation about the Old Prussian Orders seems to be wider than Freemasonrywatch, to be fair. It is certainly not clear that all "Freemasonry was actively suppressed" when the Nazis seized power. JASpencer 21:21, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I've tried to put in some more information about the divide between the Humanity and Grand lodges. I'm not that interested in this area to be honest. JASpencer 21:57, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

As the six Humanitarian lodges were clearly suppressed, the three OPs renamed themselves and denied any connection with Freemasonry and still were compelled to dissolve in 1935, the Symbolic Grand Lodge left the country, and what happened to Rising Sun is unclear (but it was irregular), I would consider Masonry suppressed for all intents and purposes. I'm going to add a little more to the Germany section once I work the info from the article into a more coherent whole. MSJapan 01:09, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Germany rewrite

The Nazis claimed that high degree Masons were willing members of "the Jewish conspiracy" and that Freemasonry was one of the causes of Germany's loss of the First World War. In 1933 Hermann Goering wrote that "..in National Socialist Germany, there is no place for Freemasonry."[4] In 1937 Joseph Goebbels inaugurated an "Anti-Masonic Exposition" to display objects seized by the state.[4] The Ministry of Defence forbid officers from becoming Masons, with officers who remained as Masons being sidelined[1]. Field-Marshal Paulus was denounced as a "High-grade Freemason" when he surrendered to the Soviet Union in 1943.[5]

Some Freemasons were active in the opposition. Masons would sometimes be arrested, not for being Masons, but for offences such as treason with their membership noted during sentencing. Freemasonry continued to be practiced clandestinely, however, and it i sclaimed that during this time German Masons took to wearing the forget-me-not as a badge of recognition (although it is alleged that this was a later invention by Theodor Vogel, the Grand Master of the United Grand Lodge of Germany in 1948-49[6]).

There were nine Grand Lodges in Germany when when the Nazis seized power. Broadly speaking there were six small and generally liberal "Humanitarian" Lodges and three larger "Old Prussian" Lodges[7]. The latter were avowedly nationalist and would not allow Jewish members, but they did allow Jewish Masons to visit the Lodge as early as 1854[8].

In the first few months of Nazi rule the six "Humanitarian" Grand Lodges were suppressed, while the three "Old Prussian" Grand Lodges were permitted to continue operating as 'Frederick the Great Associations' after sending letters denying that they were Freemasons.

• I corrected the naming conventions so they match Bernheim. I also made sure "Grand" was specified, as well as a number, because otherwise the scope seems a lot larger than it is.

• Corrected Vogel's info per the cite. He was GM for a year of a lodge system that seems to have failed, and without any info on what Vogel did (if anything), I am not comfortable calling him a Nazi. It's too much of a gray area. Schindler had a Party badge on in Schindler's List - that doesn't automatically make him a Nazi.

• Note: This will need to be checked to make sure the sources line up properly when it is pasted back in. MSJapan 01:03, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

• There is nothing in the article that says the three OP GLs were allowed to continue operating because of the letters they sent. Being Nationalist and Christian, they weren't particularly at odds with Nazi ideals.

• There is also no support of anything in the paragraph after that point. There is nothing about industrialist Masons or Masons on the General Staff in the Bernheim article, and it's not like the names were secret. Why weren't they listed in the article, then? Uncited, thus removed.

• Sebottendorff was at best an irregular Freemason, and was not initiated in Turkey, (as per my earlier provided citation). As this is uncited weaseling to create a nonexistent connection between Masonry and the Thule, and otherwise has no relation to the article whatsoever, it has been removed.

[edit] cat problem

For some reason I can't identify, this page appears under "D" in the Freemasonry category. Does anybody know why, and more importantly, how to fix it? MSJapan 02:08, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spain

The Template:Disputed-section tag has been removed, which is fair enough. However I have asked for citations on a lot of facts in here. If Bessel is going to be used, could the direct quotes be included in the footnotes?

I'll wait a while before reinserting the Template:Disputed-section tag. By then it probably won't be needed.

JASpencer 12:43, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Multiple Quotes

Bessel and the American Mercury newspaper are quoted quite generally. Can we have quotations from the articles in the citations?

Are there any tags to ask for more detail within a citation? JASpencer 21:46, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More German stuff

I found a ton of possibly relevant things in Englishhere while trying to dig up more on Virchow (which I've had no luck on yet), but I don't have time to look at all of it ATM. MSJapan 22:17, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

NOTE No grounds to dispute heavily cited section and follow-up sections across Wiki, so disputed tag removed from section. Imacomp 22:17, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Some editing done to this section. Imacomp 10:17, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Some stuff moved to this article from Freemasonry "Holocaust". Imacomp 19:06, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fact tags

Lies or not, they are statements with a verifiable source. It is not up to us to make a value judgment, especially if there is no reason to think that the source is biased. However, rather than rv the article repeatedly, how abbout we discuss what the problem supposedly is and try to work it out here instead? MSJapan 02:30, 25 May 2006 (UTC)