Talk:Fred Nile

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[edit] fred nile is my great uncle

Is he the uncle the family doesn't talk about? Kewpid 11:52, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
They are in de-Nile about him. Adam 12:18, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
More like a crap uncle. :)

[edit] Use of Rev.

Masalai, please stop inserting that paragraph! Association with literacy or social class is conjecture and has no place in this article. Rev. is his preferred title. It's that simple.

But Masalai is right about Nile (along with Moyes) being unique in their form of address, being ordained ministers and MPs AND preferring the use of both titles ie "Reverend the Hon. (Fred) Frederick John NILE, ED LTh MLC" his parliamentary page. I have changed it to reflect this. Nick 15:00 January 13, 2006.


Looks like Ambi doesn't like my compromise, she thinks titles don't belong in the lead paragraph. Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(biographies)#Honorific_prefixes says that they're optional. (Other pages generally use abbreviated forms, 'The Rev. Hon.' would certainly be less cumbersome than 'The Reverend and Honourable'.) I'm not going to change it again because this is getting silly but I do hope there'll be something factual and NPoV settled upon soon. Nick 05:03, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] PoV

This entry sounds like it was written by the Greens! Can we please clean up some of the PoV issues in this article?

  • Please sign your comments. Anonymous complaints seldom get much sympathy.
  • Please explain what you think is wrong or POV about the article rather than just slapping a notice on it. Adam 13:11, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More PoV issues

User:Davehas12 keeps trying to remove some important incidents in Nile's past and glorify his upbringing, etc. It seems he might be a staffer. Anyway I am going to revert to the previous version, but Davehas12 has been restoring his edits when other editors have reverted, so I'd thought I'd bring it here to the talk page. Teiresias84 07:53, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

He has been blocked for multiple reversions. His user contributuions page makes it clear he is a one-issue editor and is probably a Nile staffer or activist. I have left a message at his talk page explaining his edits are unacceptable. Adam 10:31, 20 October 2006 (UTC)


Teiresias84 please show all this information I am removing!? I have added an additional 330 words of information. It is you and a number of other editors who have been removing / reverting data. Further, what the hell have I glorified!? There are NO qualitative comments !!. I post facts..facts which you, Adam and Timeshift9 have taken some personal dislike to.User:Davehas12 1:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


Adam please! First you remove large amounts of data giving no other reason other than expressing your personal dislike of the content / claiming it paints Nile in a too positive light / “fan page” / “propaganda”, etc. You fail to actually specify if you believe any of that data is in error, and now you engage in trying to discredit my person!? Sad that you have to resort to Ad hominem to justify your untenable position. Please keep your conspiracy theories to yourself..User:Davehas12 1:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Draft

Ok, will everyone who has a problem with this data please state what part they have a problem with and why? Thanks

Fred Nile/draft

I have copyedited the draft. Unless there are any objections I will move it to replace the original Fred Nile page in 24 hours. michael talk 08:09, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
The draft says he "volunteered for National Service" in 1952 and became a Major in the infantry. This makes no sense. National Service in the 1950s was in fact conscription. Either he volunteered for the Army or he was conscripted for National Service - which was it? Secondly, how did he get to be a Major without going to Duntroon? Nasho men did not become officers, they became ordinary soldiers or at best NCOs. Even if he was trained as an officer (which I have never heard before), it would have taken a long time in the peacetime Army to become a Major. I suspect he actually joined the CMF and became a part-time or reserves Major - not the same thing at all. Someone should check this. Adam 10:57, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I simply gave it a grammar check and removed any POV extremities. I don't know anything in particular about Nile or about military service so I'm leaving this one up to Dave (or anyone else who's interested). michael talk 12:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm happy with the draft. Timeshift 11:20, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, you're easily pleased then. It was a total dog's breakfast. I have fixed the dreadful grammar and puntuation and Removed the Surplus Capitals. I have also removed the section on his military sevice until someone produces a references for it. Adam 11:41, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nile Draft

I have copyedited the draft. Unless there are any objections I will move it to replace the original Fred Nile page in 24 hours. michael talk 08:09, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


My apologies all for not making the aforementioned deadline. My wife and I lost our baby girl Wednesday last and for obvious reasons, I was indisposed.Davehas12 1:35, 31 October 2006 (UTC)



The draft says he "volunteered for National Service" in 1952 and became a Major in the infantry. This makes no sense. National Service in the 1950s was in fact conscription. Either he volunteered for the Army or he was conscripted for National Service - which was it? Secondly, how did he get to be a Major without going to Duntroon? Nasho men did not become officers, they became ordinary soldiers or at best NCOs. Even if he was trained as an officer (which I have never heard before), it would have taken a long time in the peacetime Army to become a Major. I suspect he actually joined the CMF and became a part-time or reserves Major - not the same thing at all. Someone should check this. Adam 10:57, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't know anything in particular about Nile or about military service so I'm leaving this one up to Dave (or anyone else who's interested). michael talk 12:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I have fixed the dreadful grammar and puntuation and Removed the Surplus Capitals. I have also removed the section on his military sevice until someone produces a references for it. Adam 11:41, 25 October 2006 (UTC)


Ok, this is what i have pulled from my local library, Nile's book and website (both of the later two are given as references in the actual article.


MILITARY SERVICE

1948 Joined 45th Inf. Bn (MG - CMF) - promoted to Cpl, served 4 years (Hurstville NSW).

1952 Volunteered for full-time National Service, 13th National Service Bn.,(Ingleburn NSW).

1953 Transferred to 45th Inf Bn.(CMF). Promoted to Pl Sgt

1955 45th Inf Bn.(CMF). Promoted P1 Lt.

1956 Transferred to MUR - Officer Training Unit, Melbourne.

1958 Transferred to SUR, Sydney. Promoted to Captain.

1960-72 Transferred to 14th Inf Bde., OC HQ Coy.; Adjutant 3 RNSW Regt (Millers Pt) Advance Officer Training Corp (2 Div HQ). Qualified as Infantry Major. OC., D Coy, 4 RNSW Regt (Merrylands). Awarded Queen's Award - ED. Efficiency Decoration. Awarded CO's Most Efficient Officer and won 4 RNSW Regt Shield for most Efficient Company (Tactics, Weapons, Drill).

1972 Transferred to Army Reserve (Retired List).


I believe the 'National Service' was a temporary service in operation during the Korean War (June 25, 1950 - July 27, 1953)

So the small part about National Service was correct and I have thus re-added it to the draft. I have also removed the reference to 'gay ordaining'. Despite Adam's obvious fixation on Nile's anti-gay politics and possibly believing this to be the case, it is nontheless misleading. According to his press releases (www.frednile.com) it was only one of a myriad of reasons which I'm not sure anyone would care to list ad infinitum.

I have also re-added data on his history with the NSW Parliamentary Standing Committee on Social Issues and his current work ... which for some unknown reason persons here keep removing. Also made several small grammatical and factual amendments / additions.

Davehas12 1:37, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Thanks for the effort in finding Nile's military record. As I expected, it shows that he was in the CMF and not the regular Army. This is an important distinction and should be noted. This is not to denigrate the CMF, but it was a part-time service and not the same thing as being a career soldier. If he had been a regular during this period he would have been dispatched to Korea, Malaya or Vietnam.
  • My recollection is that the gay ordinations issue was the one which caused Nile to leave the Uniting Church, but I am not fixated enough to go and search for a citation on that question. Adam 03:53, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


No prob.

  • Adam, Nile volunteered for National Service (1952) during the Korean War. He did so because he was only 17 ..and conscription only targeted those 18 and over. It was National Service to fight the Korean War NOT the CMF!
  • Re the fixation..nor am I, but it involved dozens of Bible interpretations. From the nature of jc, god, 'salvation', etc etc ad naseum.

Davehas12 04:05, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, yes I see he was a regular in 1952-53 - so why didn't he go to Korea? But the rest of his career was in the CMF. Personally I don't see that his military career matters at all, but since it has been introduced it needs to be stated accurately. Adam 06:30, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Also, could we axe the "draft" and its talk page and have one article and one discussion about it? Adam 06:37, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

The draft was done so there could be a consensus on it (and to avoid revert wars) before it replaced the original page. I'll replace it now. michael talk 06:56, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Michael / Adam. I added a reference to the CMF. Adam, from what i've read Nile didn't go to war due his services in training here at home. When the opportunity came for posting overseas, a cease fire was declared and the war came to an end. Davehas12 06:59, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

OK. I think Dave ought to level with us about the source of his astonishing familiarity with the details of Nile's biography. Adam 07:51, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


Adam,

Astonishing? Are you now assuming I'm illiterate? I thought it self-evident that I have read the document, how else would I be familiar with it’s content? Further, I am somewhat surprise that it appears you have not… considering your obvious interest in the subject matter.

Level? :) If you must know, I have an interest in Political Commentary / Biography, as well as the Environment /Animal Protection, Socio-Economic Reforms / Welfare of the 3rd World, Philosophy, Anthropology, Archaeology, History (particularly Ancient), Football (Soccer), Rugby League and 3D Modelling. Any of which I'd be more than happy to discuss ad naseum with you. Davehas12 09:15, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Added Data

I re-added a bit about Nile's work with the Aborginal Community. There are several community leaders that could verify this eg. Mike Mundine from the Redfern AHC (http://www.ahc.org.au). I have also made some minor adjustments. I removed the "well" (known) "outspoken" (opposition) as they are both subjective qualitative comments (ie not NPOV). Polls show Nile isn't that well known, and by who's standard does one determine what "outspoken" is? I also added "most" in reference to the media in order to change the meaning slightly. Nile is not "often" quoted on the aforementioned but when he is quoted, it is usually on those aforementioned subjects. Davehas12 02:43, 2 November 2006 (UTC)


Rebecca, please explain how this amendment has "biased the paragraph"? Davehas12 03:11, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Rebecca, please engage in some dialogue here. You keep reiterating your opinion that the amendment is "biased, badly-written trash", but fail to actually specify what it is you are referring to or explaining why you have come to this conclusion. Have you actually read what you have been reverting? Davehas12 02:00, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

While he may work with the aboriginal community, he's certainly not known for that. (He's not known for anything but his opposition to homosexuality, abortion and maybe drugs.) If you think it's significant it will need to go into a different paragraph. If it does, be careful with "mistreatment", sounds rather PoV to me.
Also, I'm changing "outspoken opposition" to "vocal opposition", sounds like a tautology but the word needs emphasis and I think everyone can agree that he's not quiet about it. Nick 03:17, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Nile can't simply be judged and viewed here as how the media portrays him, so you can't dismiss the man as being solely an outspoken mouthpeice for conservative "moral" issues. Give the Aboriginal bit and other social work a mention, just do it appropriately without glorifying the guy. michael talk 03:20, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
I simply chopped the sentence out altogether. Of all his stances, singling out that he is "opposed to the Mardi Gras and drug use", with the rewritten wording, implies almost a link between the two. I have no problem with mentioning his advocacy for social work and such, but I also have a problem with trying to tone down anything that could be seen to reflect remotely negatively on him. Rebecca 04:13, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


Nick I'm fine with your "vocal" change, it’s a fact. It was the "outspoken" comment and it's connotations that weren’t NPOV.

As Michael stated, no matter how much one may personally hate the guy, you can't just railroad him into a stereo typed caricature, it goes against the very principals of wiki. Facts are facts and contrary to how some here wish to keep depicting Nile, he (according to NSW Hansard / www.parliament.nsw.gov.au) actually spends most of his time on issues that have nothing to do with homosexuality.

Re: The Aboriginal data. If you would care to do some research / ask the Aboriginal community, you would note that he is indeed known for his work with the Aboriginal community (esp in Redfern). Evidently he has even been adopted by some tribe up on the Northern NSW coast. I could have written a glowing report about his work with the Aboriginal community, but that was neither my intent nor the purpose of this article / wiki in general. I merely stated what he stands against, ie what he calls the “mistreatment of the Aboriginal Community”. (see media release and speech on the NSW Parliament website http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/parlment/hansart.nsf/V3HHBSpeaker?open&vwCat=Nile,%20Reverend%20The%20Hon%20Fred and his personal site)

Re: Abuse of women and children. Again I point you to the aforementioned sources for evidence. Through my contacts with social advocacy / lobby groups, I know that Nile is known for his stance of protecting women and children from psychological, physical and sexual abuse. Again my point here is not to glorify the guy with a big long diatribe, but rather just point out some facts.

Rebbecca, “I have a problem with trying to tone down anything that could be seen to reflect remotely negatively on him”. How so? All we have endeavoured to do is add further information on what this Nile guy is about. I’m sorry if Nile isn’t the 2D cartoon, readily held up for ridicule, that you wish him to be, but this isn’t your personal De Sturmer / propaganda page. By your response, you merely elucidate the underlying nature / bias of your POV protests. This isn’t about trying to make Nile look bad..or good. This is about facts. Davehas12 07:05, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Military service again

I have just noticed that Nile was born in December 1934. He thus cannot have joined the CMF in 1948 as stated by Dave above. He may have been a school cadet. Adam 09:01, 5 November 2006 (UTC)


Adam,

Yes, evidentally the CMF had a cadet wing. BTW, I agree on the Mardi Gra edit; Fact. I also made some minor adjustments and added a link to CMF. Also included the bit about volunteering at 17 as this proved to be a point of confusion with you Adam, it no doubt would many others. Davehas12 12:13 AM 9 November 2006

[edit] Minor Edit

"Appeals to Christians". I don't believe this to be correct. Whilst Nile does use a lot of religious phraseology that would appeal to Christians, I believe this to be more an indication of his personal beliefs rather than an implicit attempt to only court the Christian vote. Thoughts? Davehas12 11:53AM 10 November 2006 EDST

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