Talk:Franz Joseph I of Austria

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Contents 1 archive 2 Requested move 2.1 Survey 2.2 Discussion 3 Older talk material 3.1 question about a picture 3.2 ordinal, ph vs. f 3.3 Franz Josef Land 3.4 Kindness to Jews 4 His nickname in Italy 4.1 Franz Josef vs. Franz Joseph 4.2 Trying to identify an emperor 5 Slight Disambiguation 5.1 cluttered look of article 6 rename Franz Joseph I of Austria-Hungary 6.1 Mistresses 6.2 Reordering 7 Headline text 7.1 Field Marshall of Great Britain 7.2 SPELLING OF FRANZ JOSEF 1 8 failures of Austrian external policy 9 Names in other Langauges

[edit] archive

[edit] Older talk material

[edit] question about a picture

The other person in the second picture on the page looks like a girl, are you sure it's his great-grand-nephew?

Yes. Boys were often dressed that way, and wore their hair like that, in that time period. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 18:49, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ordinal, ph vs. f

On wiki and most sources, a monarch is only referred to as 'I' when there has been a second holder of the office.

eg,

• King Juan Carlos of Spain
• Queen Anne of Great Britain
• Queen Victoria of the United Kingdom

---

But Franz Josef referred to himself as "Franz Josef I" as his successor Karl called himself Karl I PMelvilleAustin 14:34 Feb 8, 2003 (UTC)

Well, they didn't know that the monarchy would be abolished soon, did they? --KF 14:41 Feb 8, 2003 (UTC)

That's correct, KF. Also sometimes monarchs and popes are proclaimed under an ordinal, even when they are the first with that name, eg, Juan Carlos I, Pope John Paul I, etc. But as they are the first, they are rarely referred to using the ordinal, unless it is important to distinguish them from a successor with the same name. Historians and people in general invariably refer to Queen Victoria, not Queen Victoria I, Franz Josef, not Franz Josef I, Louis Philippe, not Louis Philippe I, hence the naming convention in Wiki's use of the name minus the ordinal. Karl I is slightly more complicated, because he was 'Karl I' of Austria and 'Charles IV' of Hungary. As it is obviously necessary to use his ordinal in the second case, it makes sense to use the ordinal for both his titles for balance, though Karl of Austria is ok. However Franz Josef was the 'first' in both his kingdom and his empire, so an ordinal is unnecessary. JTD 22:45 Feb 8, 2003 (UTC)

I just checked this in the standard history of Austria (Erich Zöllner, Geschichte Österreichs. Von den Anfängen bis zur Gegenwart, 5th ed., Wien 1974). Surprisingly, Zöllner refers to him as Franz Joseph throughout the book. In the text the ordinal is only added when he is mentioned for the first time ("[...] bestieg der achtzehnjährige Erzherzog Franz [...] als Kaiser Franz Joseph I. den Habsburgerthron [...]"), but it is also used in the register and the family tree. --KF 23:17 Feb 8, 2003 (UTC)

Thomas Nipperdey also calls him "Franz Joseph" in his Deutsche Geschichte. I'm going to move to Franz Joseph of Austria. john 07:58, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)

German Wikipedia also calls him Franz Joseph...I'm going to assume "Franz Josef" is just overenthusiastic anglophone regermanization... john 08:01, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Once again, his name in German is Franz Joseph. Just as we have Joseph Goebbels. Franz Josef is an error, not the German spelling. john 06:08, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

The fact that he is being called Franz Joseph is an English modernisation. Just take a look at the Hofburg Site... click on the Wedding Announcement, and you will in fact see that it is spelt Franz JoseF

Well, if it is a modernization, it is certainly not an English one. Thomas Nipperdey's standard German language history of Germany from 1800-1866, which I happen to have, calls him "Franz JosePH," as does the German wikipedia. john k 16:51, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

O.K., maybe on wiki that's right approach not to use the ordinal. But shouldn't WE also respect those millions of his (Franz Joseph's) contemporaries - my both grandfathers among them - who ALWAYS called him WITH the ordinal ? Moreover, wiki links are becoming more complicated when, absentmindedly and automatically, any writer from former Austro-Hungarian Empire successor states uses the title which is still in a living memory - being pushed into pupil's heads in History even now.

Perhaps a counter on wiki redirection page will indicate if the users are more often trying to find "Franz Joseph I" or "Franz Joseph of Austria". Radoneme, November 29, 2004

[edit] Franz Josef Land

Just wondering, anyone know why it was that Franz Josef Land in the Russian high arctic was named in his honor in 1873?

It was discovered by Austrian explorers but later annexed to Russia. Anglius

[edit] Kindness to Jews

I thought that Austria-Hungary was supposed to have been one of the most anti-Semitic nations upon the Continent (I am not writing this because I am particularly fond of the Jews). Anglius

In its last decades A-H got almost destroyed by wave of nationalism: every nation here defined itself against other nationalities, Jews being as one another nationality. Official goverment policy was liberal toward Jews. There were no large pogroms or violence or ghettos but economic nationalism thrived. Pavel Vozenilek 00:19, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

I thank you for your information, Mr. Vozenilek. Anglius

Huh? You are not "particularly fond of the Jews"? What an odd statement. Are there other ethnic/religious groups that you are especially fond of? Why do you feel the need to make such a statement? At any rate, Hungary before World War I was certainly not terribly anti-semitic - the Magyars liked the Jews well enough, since the Jews of Hungary (along with the Germans) were the only ethnic group willing to assimilate. It was more complicated in the Austrian half. Vienna exhibited a great deal of anti-semitism, but this was not officially sanctioned. Franz Joseph refused to confirm Karl Lueger, the anti-semitic Christian Social leader, as mayor of Vienna for some time, although this was not so much because of his anti-semitism as because of his crassness and populism (of which, however, his anti-semitism was a part). john k 06:03, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

I merely meant, Mr. Kenney, that I was not writing that out of irony or in defence of Jews. I was not attempting to say that I am an anti-Semite or a philo-Semite. Please do not become so exited. Anglius

Why do you feel it necessary to preface a historical inquiry by a statement that you are "not particularly fond" of one of the parties to the historical inquiry? Why didn't you note the extent of your fondness for Austria-Hungary? Or for turn of the century Europe? Or for Franz Joseph? When you inquire about something in an article about English history, do you note your lack of fondness for the English? What on earth was your purpose in this statement except to say, "I'm saying this, but I'm not one of those people, of course, so you can take me seriously"? Whether intentionally or not, your statement was pretty clearly an anti-semitic one - it suggests that Jews (or those "particularly fond of them") cannot be taken seriously in discussions of anti-semitism - that only those "not particularly fond" of Jews can take part in such a discussion. Can't you see how this would be offensive? john k 16:45, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

It was not my intention to offend any of the Jewry in that sentence, and I can see why they might be annoyed. However, Mr. Kenney, if I may politely inquire, why would you become so upset unless you personally are a Hebrew (not to sound "shallow"-minded)? Anglius

A Hebrew? Are you for real? What difference does it make if I am Jewish or not? Your statement was generally offensive. john k 05:23, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] His nickname in Italy

Hi my friends, first of all sorry for my poor English, I'm not able to speak it very well because I'm italian. I just wanted to tell a thing that in my opinion can be added in this article. Franz Joseph in Italy was known also as "Cecco Peppe", this is because the translation of his name in italian is Francesco Giuseppe ( Franz = Francesco and Joseph = Giuseppe ), the abbreviations of Francesco and Giuseppe in italian are respectively Cecco and Peppe, that's why he was called like that. He was called with that nickname in particular by italian troops who fought during "La Grande Guerra" ( this is how we italians named the WWI ). There is also a pacifist poetry written by famous italian poet Trilussa where Franz Joseph is called Cecco Peppe. See [2]. If you all are not agaist, I can add this thing to the article. Regards!

    I have put it there together with a Czech nickname. I think it should         be on the page. Aloysius

[edit] Franz Josef vs. Franz Joseph

The title says Joseph, the first line says Josef, the majority of sentences in the article says Joseph, and the caption of his picture says Josef. Come on, people, let's pick one for coherence's sake. Porcher 05:05, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

As I said, it's "Joseph" - this is what the German wikipedia has. john k 05:43, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Ah, I see the change was made some months back by our resident anti-semite Anglius. john k 05:45, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Please pardon me if I am intruding, gentlemen, but I felt that that was the traditional German spelling(I believe that it was, at leasst that time-period). Not to be impolite, please do not call me something, Mr. Kenney, that you really do not possess evidence to rightfully do so. --Anglius 01:57, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

No it is not. An name calling seen here brings nothing useful to encyclopedia. Pavel Vozenilek 06:00, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

I thank you, Mr. Vozenilik.--Anglius 01:48, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Trying to identify an emperor

"Serious pecuniary losses led [ Karl Friedrich Mohr ] at the age of fifty-seven to become a privatdozent in Bonn, where in 1867 he was appointed, by the direct influence of the emperor, extraordinary professor of pharmacy."

Emperor? There was no German Kaiser until 1871. There had been no Holy Roman Emperor since 1806. This would have to be Franz Joseph I of Austria. Does that make sense to influence an appointmnent in Bonn? Cutler 12:06, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

This would be very, very unlikely. Pavel Vozenilek 21:22, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Seems likely this is an anachronism, and that the King of Prussia, who would shortly become German Emperor, is meant. john k 21:26, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Slight Disambiguation

As Franz_Joseph redirects here, I added a link to Franz_Joseph_(artist). 161.11.130.249 18:20, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] cluttered look of article

These new templates for the style are terrible. Although well-intentioned, it has now given the article a very cluttered look. There has to be a better solution to this. Gryffindor 15:09, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Ok, I have moved the templates a to the bottom, hopefully this will be in order now from its appearance? Gryffindor 15:30, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] rename Franz Joseph I of Austria-Hungary

Shouldn't the correct name of the article be called Franz Joseph I of Austria-Hungary considering it was a dual-monarchy, made up of two parts Cisleithanien and Transleithanien? The Hungarian part should not be made felt that is it being neglected. This is what the German-language Wikipedia calls him and it would only be correct, as opposed to his predecessors who were really only rulers of one Austrian Empire, with Hungary only being a part of it like the other Kronländer... Gryffindor 21:02, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

He ruled as F.J. of Austria, though, until 1867, it means not negligible 19 years of his long reign, but the dualism still was the main political change of his era so I go in for the rename! Aloysius

He was Emperor of Austria and King of Hungary. We generally list the highest title. Also, this would make an awkward case for his successor, who was Charles I of Austria, but Charles IV of Hungary. Best to just leave it with Austria, which was his highest title. We have, for instance Charles I of England, even though he might be at Charles I of England and Scotland. john k 22:33, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

OK, you have convinced me;-) You are true. Aloysius

Hm, difficult case. This is not a question of listing his highest title (which is Emperor and I agree with only listing the highest), but a question of the correct country name. Before the "Ausgleich" with the Hungarians, the term of the Empire was generally known as "Kaisertum Österreich" or something similar, often translated as "Austrian Empire". After the Ausgleich however, the official name was "Österreich-Ungarn", Austria-Hungary (or Austro-Hungarian Empire, but simply known as Austria-Hungary). The German-language Wikipedia has him listed as "Karl I. (Österreich-Ungarn)" He was King Charles IV of Hungary (amongst many other titles), but he was the first Charles of the common Austria-Hungary. Correct me if I'm wrong but in this case, the counting of the Emperors of Austria became synonymous with the Emperor of Austria-Hungary. In that case "Charles I of Austria-Hungary" would not be wrong either, because the other Habsburg Emperors Charles before him were Holy Roman Emperors. Gryffindor 12:25, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Gryffindor, this is about his highest title, which was "Emperor of Austria," not "Emperor of Austria-Hungary." There was no such thing as an Emperor of Austria-Hungary - the man was known as Emperor of Austria in Cisleithania, and Apostolic King of Hungary in Transleithania. And the whole monarchy's official name was not "Austria-Hungary," but "The Kingdoms and Lands Represented in the Imperial Council and the Lands of the Holy Hungarian Crown of St. Stephen." It was known as "Austria-Hungary," for short, but this was not the official name. And there certainly wasn't such a thing as an Emperor of Austria-Hungary. john k 15:51, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

There is no mention to his Emperor brother, Maximilian. I think there should be. Rocer

Feel free to add it. john k 15:51, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Well then you just agreed with me that the country's name is "Austria-Hungary". I am not going to start a renaming war here. But if you are going to go by "highest", he was ruler of Austria-Hungary. Of course he was Emperor of Austria, King of Hungary, King of Bohemia, etc etc... but he was ruler of a place that was called Austria-Hungary. I am not proposing to rename the article "Emperor Franz Joseph I of Austria-Hungary" but "Franz Joseph I of Austria-Hungary" since that was the name of the empire, you agree. There are many examples of countries that have a double name. Gryffindor 08:46, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

His highest title was Emperor of Austria, so he's Franz Joseph I of Austria. Also, shouldn't it actually be titled "Francis Joseph", since this is the English-language Wiki site, and the translation of "Franz" is "Francis", as shown in the Francis I, Holy Roman Emperor and Francis II, Holy Roman Emperor articles? -Alex 12.220.157.93 04:01, 27 January 2006 (UTC).

I have a beer stein given to Franz Josef 1 for his 80th. birthday celebration and its incribed "Kaiser of Austria King of Hungary Franz Josef the 1st" translated from the German.  

[edit] Mistresses

Perhaps some mention should be made of Franz's mistresses, Katharina Schratt the actress and Anna Nahowski?

[edit] Reordering

I tried to reorder a little the page. Perhaps the biography could be fleshed up a little more (perhaps someone could translate from the German page ?). I also removed the following sentences:

Rudolf's killing of the Baroness Vetsera was an extremely grim chapter in the long line of outbreaks of mental instability in the Habsburg Dynasty caused by their long history of inbreeding. The younger brother to Emperor Franz Joseph, the Archduke Viktor Ludwig, spent most of his life exiled on the island of Capri, following a series of scandals involving dressing up in women's clothes and molesting his military aides.

this breaks the flow of the biography, talking about relatives. It has been suggested that Franz Joseph himself was senile, or perhaps slightly insane in his old age. Perhaps this sentence could fit in a separate, dedicated section.

I edited the sentence into the Mayerling article StefanoC 08:57, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Notwithstanding the scandals, there were times when Franz Joseph took firm moral stands. When Pope Pius IX detained the six-year-old Jewish boy Edgardo Mortara on account of the claim that a housekeeper had secretly baptized him, Emperor Franz Joseph sent the Pope a plea to return the child to his parents. The Pope refused his request.

When World War I erupted, Austria-Hungary fought in alliance with Germany, but the Austro-Hungarian Army proved ill-prepared and ill-equipped. Franz Joseph's conservatism was partly to blame: when presented with the suggestion that the army should acquire a newly-developed mechanical weapon, namely tanks, he famously retorted: "Absolutely not. The horses will be startled!".

These two sentences belong perhaps to a section about Franz Joseph's politics.

StefanoC 08:55, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

The "horses" quote was not sourced. Fr. J. I was long term ruler of important power and there is lot of more important information than funny, unsourced quips attributed to him. Pavel Vozenilek 13:56, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Have to agree that this biography badly needs to be fleshed out. Looks more like a Geneology page and pedants corner (over classification of names) than a serious encyclopaedia entry (Simon G)

[edit] Headline text

[edit] Field Marshall of Great Britain

Franz Joseph had been categorised as British Field Marshal Category:British Field Marshals, but this was only honorary - see [3] so he was removed from this category. (He wasn't British either - I beleieve that only British people shopuld be in the British Field Marshals category). Diverman 01:37, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

It was just as honorary as the rank of (British) Field Marshall held by King Alfonso XIII of Spain, King Albert I and King Leopold I of Belgium, King Ernst August I of Hanover, King William II of the Netherlands, King Mahendra of Nepal, and Prince Edward of Saxe-Weimar - all of whom are listed in this category. What makes Franz Joseph any different? The category "British Field Marshalls" clearly includes honorary appointments, so why not include Franz Joseph? Noel S McFerran 04:40, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] SPELLING OF FRANZ JOSEF 1

There seems to be a bit of a problem in which way his name should be spelled. Well I have a large pewter beer stein which was given to him on 15 Aug 1910 at his 80th. birthday celebration, The engraved inscription reads "Zur Erinnerung an die Vorfeierdes 80 Gegurts festes Seiner Majesfatdes Kaisers von Oesterreich, Konigs von Ungarn Franz Josef 1". I would think that a present given to the king would surely have his name spelled correctly. This stein also has engraved on it "gegeben von der Unions braurerei Schulein & Co. Aktiengesellschaft". The family who gave this stein to Franz Josef 1, were Jewish and emigrated to the US aroung 1933.

As I've said before, all modern German sources that I've seen use "Franz Joseph." I cannot further explain the discrepancy, save to suggest that it is possible that there was not a single settled spelling at the time, and that "Franz Joseph" is the post facto agreement of the German orthographic community. Alternately, the stein could be wrong. john k 17:46, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I personally believe that is can be avoided with using the anglicisation of his name, which is Francis Joseph I. That way it is clear and doesn't favour one version of the German over another. The first line reads with his English name with the German in paretheses. Charles 20:40, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

What is wrong with "favoring" the German name used by German language historians? john k 21:14, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I personally don't think it is wrong at all, I think it is just easier to avoid it altogether and use the just-as-common English form of the Emperor's name. Charles 21:16, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] failures of Austrian external policy

The last sentence of the second paragraph of the "Biography" section currently reads:

However, the 1850s witnessed several failures of Austrian external policy - the Crimean War and break-up with Russia, Austro-Sardinian War of 1859 against armies of the House of Savoy, and Napoleon III.

This lists three policy failures: 1. Crimean War and break-up with Russia 2. Austro Sardinian War of 1859 3. Napoleon III

Is that intentional? It looks to me like it's missing an "and" -- in other words, it's meant to list TWO failures, with the second being the war against the armies of the House of Savoy and Napoleon III. If that's what it's meant to say, it should be more like,

However, the 1850s witnessed several failures of Austrian external policy - the Crimean War and break-up with Russia; and the Austro-Sardinian War of 1859 against the armies of the House of Savoy and Napoleon III.

The original authors knew European history and I know English grammar -- can we team up on this?

[edit] Names in other Langauges

It's surely a goog idea to make a list how Franz Joseph was named in the many langauges spoken in his empire. But I don't see any sense behind translations in Spanish or Icelandic. What do you think?--Hannesde Correct me! 11:11, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I would suggest that only languages that were actually official in one province or another should be mentioned. So German, Czech, Italian, Hungarian, Polish, Ukrainian, Croatian - yes. I'm less certain on Romanian, Slovak, Serbian, and Slovene. Certainly not Spanish or Icelandic. john k 01:13, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, I would keep every language spoken in his empire. What I dislike is mentioning those languages not related to Austroa Hungary at all.--Hannesde Correct me! 13:28, 30 October 2006 (UTC)