Talk:Frankfurt (Oder)

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[edit] Opening discussion

I always thought this town was called Frankfurt-an-der-Oder. Has it been changed to this form? Adam 02:28, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Me too; i came close to taking the time to use "move this page" on it. And don't fall for that "it's been changed" stuff: this is an English-language work, and formal changes like "Czechia" (even if they get forced down the throats of the natives) take a generation or more to cross the barrier between languages, and thus are not of interest in naming articles. --Jerzy (t) 08:44, 2005 Apr 5 (UTC)

I would second the above. It's hard to imagine that a town would include brackets in its formal name. I would support a move to Frankfurt an der Oder. DJ Clayworth 20:12, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Actually, it seems that the city decided at some date in the nineties that its formal name indeed was "Frankfurt (Oder)", brackets included! See their website. I still prefer "Frankfurt an der Oder", though. Eugene van der Pijll 08:13, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
That's correct. "Frankfurt an der Oder" reads very weird for me as a young German. I know it as "Frankfurt (Oder)", written and also more and more spoken without "an der". --de:Cmdr 03:01, 26 Jun 2006 (CEST)

In the same vein, i have never before seen anything but "Frankfurt an der Oder" or "Frankfurt a.d. Oder", and there is nothing here to justify the weird hyphens. (Think "San-Francisco" or "New-York-City"!) A Google search confirms this:

"Frankfurt-an-der-Oder"

produces in the first 50 hits nothing but the unhyphenated version. Changing back to the unhyphenated 4-word version.
--Jerzy·t 03:55, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Is it true that Frankfurt means free crossing? I know of no modern German word frank, and de:Geschichte von Frankfurt am Main gives a more logical meaning: Frankish ford. --Laura Scudder | Talk 22:30, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

The city name is Frankfurt (Oder), both legally and in common usage; "Frankfurt an der Oder" sounds old-fashioned. Brackets are not uncommon in German to distinguish between towns and cities with the same name. I would suggest renaming the article. ProhibitOnions 21:29, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
I should like to see some evidence for this; the city's website uses some fancy typography, most easily read as "Frankfort-Oder" without parentheses; but that comes under [[1]] This does not appear to be English usage, although I cannot blame the city fathers for being uncertain. Septentrionalis 23:44, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
The site that you mentioned in its English version clearly uses "Frankfurt (Oder)", e.g. Welcome to the Official Homepage of the City of Frankfurt (Oder). --Lysytalk 08:49, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
As no-one has voiced any objection, I have put in a move request. ProhibitOnions 16:20, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Already done, by User:Redvers. ProhibitOnions 11:39, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Frankfurt an der Oder → Frankfurt (Oder) – Frankfurt (Oder) is both the legal name of the city and the only common variant in contemporary spoken and written use. The present article title "Frankfurt an der Oder" is archaic.

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
  • Support as initiator. I've lived in Frankfurt for several years; the usage "Frankfurt an der Oder" is uncommon. It's always Frankfurt (Oder), spoken and written. This is not an exceptional usage; many other German towns and cities use parenthesis around a geographical feature to distinguish them.ProhibitOnions 16:20, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Support per nom. --Serge 23:46, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments

[edit] Name in Polish

User User:Ksenon argued on my talk page that mentioning Frankfurt's name in Polish is "plain irrelevant." (Whether the Sorbian language name is more relevant, even though Frankfurt is not a traditional Sorb territory, is another matter, but Ksenon has not removed this.) I think it would be wise to ask others whether we should include or exclude the town's name in Polish. I myself think we should Include it. ProhibitOnions 23:39, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Lusatia_in_Europe.png - I may be wrong, but it seems Fr. is part of Lusatia. As far as the Polish name goes, I dont think theres enough historical or even cultural significance to warrant including the name. There already is a link to Slubice. Ksenon 00:24, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Frankfurt is not in the Lausitz. ProhibitOnions 12:35, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Removed. Lusatia is way south. Ulritz 08:21, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move to Frankfurt an der Oder

Frankfurt (Oder) → Frankfurt an der Oder — Frankfurt (Oder) is recent German usage, but not English, yet. This short form is variously spelt in German: Frankfurt/Oder and Frankfurt-Oder appear to be common. It is almost unknown in English, except in street addresses. The move to this location appears to have a single !vote; I would have contested then if I'd known. Septentrionalis 15:50, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add  # '''Support'''  or  # '''Oppose'''  on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.

[edit] Support Votes

  1. Support as nom Frankfurt on the Oder would also be acceptable, as more immediately understandable. Septentrionalis 15:59, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
  2. Support I actually always refer to this city as "Frankfurt an der Oder".--Húsönd 17:47, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Oppose Votes

  1. Oppose. Should respect the local official name, which is now Frankfurt (Oder). The town has no English name. --Lysytalk 17:18, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
  2. Oppose. Nom is using the old "English usage" fallacy; the forms "on Oder" or "on the Oder" are uncommon. The city name is Frankfurt (Oder), both legally and in most common use. There are several older forms, such as an der Oder, an Oder, /Oder, a.d.O, (O), etc. Part of the reason the city insists on "Frankfurt (Oder)" is that it contains no prepositions or other words that need to be translated.  ProhibitOnions  (T) 18:59, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
  3. Oppose. The name most commonly used to refer to this town in English is Frankfurt. Of course, this name requires disambiguation, and Oder accomplishes that. The (Oder) part of the title is not necessarily part of the name of the subject - it's just appropriate disambiguation information specified in a parenthetic remark in order to disambiguate from other uses of Frankfurt. The fact that it is officially referred to by this name is a bonus. --Serge 23:44, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
  4. Oppose. Frankfurt (Oder) is now the official name. -newkai t-c 04:37, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments:

I've added some references indicating English usage. Septentrionalis 15:59, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

  • Comment. An der Oder is certainly not English, but the previous German form of the name. --Lysytalk 17:21, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
    • It is the name used in English, which is what WP:NAME requires. Septentrionalis 17:34, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
      • It was used when the town was named "Frankfurt an der Oder". Now the name is "Frankfurt (Oder)" and we should use the modern, not the old name. --Lysytalk 18:45, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Question. Is Frankfurt (Oder) bureaucratic shorthand for Frankfurt and der Oder or is it actually read (in German) Frankfurt-Oder? I don't recall Frankfurt (Main) being read that way even though signage is written that way. Also, that the use of brackets/parentheses for article titles implies internal (i.e. Wikipedia) dismabiguation might be the only problem with a move. —  AjaxSmack  02:08, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
It is indeed read as "Frankfurt Oder". Frankfurt am Main is very rarely called that because it is by far the largest and best-known community called Frankfurt (compare, say, Newcastle Upon Tyne with Newcastle-under-Lyme). Residents of Frankfurt (Oder) generally call their city just "Frankfurt" but saying "Frankfurt (Oder)" is quite common, too, and, for example, this is how it is announced on trains approaching the city.  ProhibitOnions  (T) 09:50, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. —  AjaxSmack  23:19, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References

Frankfurt an der Oder is used by the current editions of

which are suggested by Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) Septentrionalis 15:59, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

The first two require registration, so I can't comment. The third provides a population figure that is off by 20,000, suggesting an outdated article that hasn't been updated lately. If the other two are similar, which is likely (see [2]), it just goes to show that Frankfurt (Oder) totally slipped out of the English-speaking collective (un)conscious during the Cold War, when very few English-speakers were able, or wished, to visit the city, whose name was in any event overshadowed by that of the large, important world city in West Germany. The legal name of the city is Frankfurt (Oder), which is also how it is read; "Frankfurt an der Oder" is today far less common, and to locals serves as something of a shibboleth that the speaker is a clueless Wessi. Other cities have chosen different ways to disambiguate themselves -- Schwedt/Oder, Bernau bei Berlin. Frankfurt (Oder) is how Frankfurt does it.  ProhibitOnions  (T) 10:20, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Move request has been defeated

Vote was 4 to 2 for oppose. --Woohookitty(meow) 06:11, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Intro

Please discuss objections to this paragraph:

Frankfurt on Oder [ˈfraŋkfʊrt] is a city in Brandenburg, Germany located on the Oder River, on the German-Polish border directly opposite the city of Słubice. In German, it is referred to as Frankfurt (Oder) (formerly Frankfurt an der Oder), to distinguish it from the larger city of Frankfurt am Main. The short form, now officially used in postal addresses, is variously punctuated, including Frankfurt/Oder and Frankfurt-Oder.

The recent form is variously punctuated; what's the problem? Septentrionalis 23:39, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

1. It isn't "variously punctuated". It's "Frankfurt (Oder)". Brackets. Just like, say, Fürstenwalde (Spree) and Werder (Havel).
2. It's not usually "Frankfurt on Oder".
3. It's not "formerly Frankfurt an der Oder".
4. It's not only in German that it is referred to as Frankfurt (Oder) to distinguish it from Frankfurt am Main. It is also often referred to this way when distinguishing the two isn't an issue.
4. Słubice isn't a city.
5. "Now officially used in postal addresses"...?
6. Is this really appropriate in the introductory paragraph?

 ProhibitOnions  (T) 11:00, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

1. De facto, it is. See scholar.google.com The first ten citations include three slashes, the next ten include a comma, the city's own website begins with "Frankfurt Oder" (no parens) and uses a dash for the website name. The decree declaring Frankfurt (Oder) the name de jure should be included if available. Septentrionalis 18:00, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
2. Frankfurt-on-Oder, Frankfurt-on-the-Oder, and Frankfurt on Oder are all used; Frankfurt-on-Oder, which is the title of the 1911 Britannica article (also the Fourteenth edition; the Fifteenth and current edition use Frankfurt an der Oder) might be preferably.
3. If you insist on Frankfurt a. d. Oder, please tweak that; but I think it less useful for an Anglophone readership. If not, I am at a loss what you can possibly mean. See a search.
All the uses I can find for "Frankfurt (Oder)" are either in German, are German addresses, or are local official usage. In short, contexts where I would expect Nürnberg rather than Nuremberg, (or Roma rather than Rome) - attestations of local usage.
4. What I found when I began editing. I don't insist either way; argue it out with the Poles. Septentrionalis 18:00, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
6. Yes, of course it is; but I will see if a name paragraph makes sense. Septentrionalis 18:00, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Please do not insert your comments into the previous entry; it breaks up the continuity. To reply:
1. A stylistic graphic image and a website address are not useful references for spelling or punctuating anything, as most punctuation (including parenthesis) is not available, and case is irrelevant. The city itself uses Frankfurt (Oder), which for the billionth time now is the legal name of the city, and the term I "insist on" as the title of the article.
2. There have historically been many variants on the name, all of which are in use to some extent or another. However, as stated before, not only is Frankfurt (Oder) the legal name of the city, it is also the way it is most commonly read. "Frankfurt (Oder)" is not a new coinage, but it was also the version preferred in the GDR, leading other variants to become less common.
Many English sources are unreliable because it's a minor East German provincial city with a bad reputation that few tourists ever venture to. The few English-language sources connected with the city (the university, the Frankfurt Institute for Transformation Studies, the Institute for Semiconductor Research, the Collegium Polonicum, and the city itself) use "Frankfurt (Oder)". Comparisons with major cities that have different names in English are irrelevant; in fact, Frankfurt is further obscured by the fact that a major city shares its name.
6. There's no need for a names paragraph; "an der Oder" is mentioned in the introduction; we could mention "on the" if it's really necessary. A common shorthand for the city is FfO, as is FF, the license plate code. German cities often abbreviate to these on road signs: FF-Rosengarten -->  ProhibitOnions  (T) 19:03, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
1. ProhibitOnions is "insisting" on a position contrary to Wikipedia policy. WP:NAME#Use_English_words and its successor makes our position clear, and there is consensus behind it. The English WP uses the most recognizable name of a city in English. German usage is relevant to the German Wikipedia; the legal name is only relevant when English usage is unclear. We are intended to be read by anglophones, and to be understood by them.
2. Claiming the Britannica and Columbia are unreliable is ad hoc special pleading. Provide evidence, if you can. Septentrionalis 22:31, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

You introduced the term "insist". There has already been a vote on the name of the article; please stop changing it. We have already provided sources supporting it. Thank you.  ProhibitOnions  (T) 23:43, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I have not changed the name of the article; I have edited the first paragraph. If it were at its English name, the first bolded mention would properly be Frankfurt (Oder); but it isn't.Septentrionalis 00:42, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Does this edit by Lysy evidence misunderstanding of the late !vote? It was only on where the article should be; not what it should say. It didn't even decide that. 4-2 to no consensus. Septentrionalis 20:50, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

First you wanted "an der Oder"; then you change to "-on-Oder". The version Lysy wrote/reverted to contains both the city's official name and the most common alternative without modifiers. It avoids guesswork such as your addition of "formerly" to the second most common rendering of the city name. Its tone is more in keeping with Wikipedia's usual style. If you would like to add "-on-Oder" to the list of alternative names, do so. However, it's not all that common, and to have a bold name that differs from the article title just isn't right.  ProhibitOnions  (T) 23:43, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Actually many articles have their bold text differing from the article name; for one that parallels this, see Prince Chlodwig zu Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst. Septentrionalis 01:15, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
  • And formerly wasn;t guesswork, unless it was ProhibitOnions', whose word I was taking on the subject. Septentrionalis 01:23, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Per the WP:MOS, the article should start either "Frankfurt is" or "Frankfurt (Oder) is" depending on whether we see the (Oder) as part of the name or as a disambiguator. If you change the opening paragraph, you should also change the name (which, however, has been tried unsuccessfully already). Kusma (討論) 20:27, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

See the example of Chancellor Hohenlohe above; it is customary to use a different form in bold than in the article title; see the example above, which is more common than not, when there exists a local name. The policy would be to use the English name is the title, and the local name in the article. But the article should begin with mentioning a name actually used in English. Septentrionalis 23:39, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

There is no evidence that this name is, or ever has been, used by English-speakers. The intro is therefore biased, unsourced, and erroneous. Three citations have been given for Frankfort-on-Oder; there are some signs of Anglo-American divergence on the hyphens, which is only to be expected. Septentrionalis 18:21, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

There is another option. Basically, it looks to me like what the article is currently asserting is that the name of the city is, in English, Frankfurt. The (Oder) at the end is a standard way of differentiating between individual entries with the same basic name. See John Adams (New York), John Adams (Army), John Adams (martyr), John Adams (provost), John Adams (poet), John Adams (mutineer), John Adams (educator), John Adams (physicist), John Adams (geographer), and John Adams (ice hockey) as similar examples. Like I said above, I think that this page is just following the example of all those others above and elsewhere which follow the same format. Also, when dealing with a city whose name is in another language, I would think that the best and most reasonable name to give it would be the closest German translation of the name by which it is best known in its native country. Personally, I am not myself knowledgable about the city to weigh in on that aspect. I do however think that this discussion is almost certainly the primary thing detracting from the improvement of the article. The name of the website is also dependent upon the conventions of website names and availability; citing it as any sort of "official" statement is misleading, as there is no indication of how if at all the options were limited by convention and/or availability. And I cannot see how the statement that a position is being insisted upon is in any way contributing to the discussion. Personally, I would favor the name Frankfurt (Oder) for the article, and some variation of Frankfurt am Oder in the opening of the article. I do however also agree that the official German name of the city should appear in the introduction as well. Also, there are more than one wikipedia policies in play here, so anyone who refers specifically to one policy over and above all other applicable policies is probably displaying a degree of tunnel vision. Badbilltucker 17:32, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
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