Talk:Frank Zappa/Archive 1

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ARCHIVE OF TALK: FRANK ZAPPA UP UNTIL JULY 3, 2006

Re the Lennon - Zappa connection: Lennon released an album of a "live concert" entitled "Sometime in New York City" which apparently featured a guest performance by Zappa on a tune called "Scumbag".

However - this was not the true case, it was Lennon who was the guest - he performed with Zappa at the Fillmore East in June 1971, the tune being played was "King Kong" (by Zappa) and the band was the Mothers. Zappa simply gave Lennon a copy of the tape of the concert. The entire performance is available on the Zappa CD "Playground Psychotics" (track 25-26) and the band line-up is given, verifying whose concert it actually was. Zappa was furious at Lennon for releasing the recording under a different name, and also for giving himself a "writer" credit on a song that Zappa had written and released on an album in 1967. - MMGB

Thats true, except Sometime in NYC isn't a concert album. Its mainly a (very bad) studio record with a bonus "concert" disc. (oh, and Manning, I saw your name on a Zappa guitar tab I got recently, so cheers for that) -- GWO

The note about Playground Psychotics version containing the "entire" concert is untrue -- the Playground Psychotics release edits out the "King Kong" snippet that was heard during on Lennon/Ono's "Live Jam" disc at the beginning of "Jamrag." (Ibaranoff24 02:55, 26 December 2005 (UTC))

Hehe - Cool! glad to see all that work is being used :) I spent COUNTLESS hours transcribing that stuff - which one did you get? - MMGB

Jazz Discharge Party Hats -- GWO

Someone got upset about the editing out of the word jazz from the above introductory text and put it back. However I wrote them to clarify that it was simply because Zappa was not a jazz musician nor did he ever claim to be, even though at various times others who performed in his bands included some jazz musicians. In fifty odd albums released before his death not one included a jazz guitar solo.

How could we tell? What would a "jazz guitar solo" sound like? Why aren't the solos on "Hot Rats" jazz guitar? Share the criterion, and we'll make our minds up GWO 16:37, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Indeed he even used the term itself ironically as in "Bebop Tango" and "Jazz from Hell".

What about "Make A Jazz Noise Here"? Is that ironic? How can you tell? ' GWO 16:37, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I think the question raised here is a valid one. Zappa was at best ambivalent about jazz ("Jazz is not dead, it just smells funny") and in particular bebop, which is BIZARRELY cited here as an influence. It's clear that Zappa was somewhat into the music of Eric Dolphy, but that's quite a leap to bebop. He is on-record as being particularly contemptuous of bebop style noodling, as well as the whole "jazz scene". Your question about "Make a Jazz Noise Here" is kind of odd. It's not ironic at all; it's a fairly obvious jab at genre, idiom, and the framing of expectations that went along with club jazz. It's not as if "The Secret Carlos Santana Chord Progression" bespeaks a Santana influence...I'm not prepared to make any sweeping edits to these claims at the moment, but felt someone had to second the complaint that there are some eyebrow-raising remarks in this article. Personally, it should be more controversial to claim that someone had X influence than to suggest such a claim for removal. Iconoclastodon 08:34, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 removed link 2 Mothers of Invention 3 Discography 4 Greek American 5 Southern Italian 6 First Photo 7 Note on his name 8 1960's means Mothers? 9 Picture of Zappa's statue 10 Subgenius 11 WHY? 12 Vice Squad 13 Purple Prose 14 Nando 15 "still trying to trim this down to maintain brevity without sacrificing required detail" 16 "(with an I.Q. of 173)," added by 24.253.120.206 17 Frank and Drugs 18 Personal Views 19 Pomona College? 20 Man from Utopia - Artwork 21 Saturday Night Live Episode 22 Including References 23 posssible additions (i'm drunk) 24 This is good to go... 25 Grammy Reference 26 Monkees / "200 Motels" 27 Why is everything underlined? 28 Style cleanup 29 Meaning of "zappa" 30 Peculiar sentence 31 The Läther sub-section 32 Deleted sentence containing unsubstaintiated claim 33 Theremin

removed link

I removed this sentence, couldn't see how the link related to the article (which I thought was great by the way).

"See Tom and Jerry for an anecdote from this era."

try Tom and Jerry (band) . Make sense now? GangofOne 08:33, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Mothers of Invention

Given that this article is getting rather large (it's passed the 32k mark), would someone separate out the info on Frank Zappa and the Mothers of Invention? There's a lot of inbound links looking for the band, and it currently redirects to this article. I'd do it, but I don't know the subject well enough to separate out what needs to stay here and what should go. -- Cyrius|✎ 05:39, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

That's a little sticky. See, by the time Freak Out! came out, the Mothers were already "Frank and his Amazing Band." So if there's a seperate article for it, it should talk about the period from its inception until Zappa took over, and then link to the Zappa article. --66.241.95.65 17:42, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Discography

I just added some items, including several albums by other artists which were entirely Zappa music. Perhaps someone will want to separate them into a second list, but if so, remember to take also several others, including several orchestral albums, and "Zappa's Universe."

Another category might be the compilations which are entirely covered on other albums. I added now some that came out in the sixties in Verve. erl 216.19.218.50 22:36, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Greek American

His dad was born in Sicily and of Greek-Arab ancestry, so I think it's more appropriate to refer to him simply as "American." -- Dave C. 01:59, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Southern Italian

The biographer's list of ethnicities (Greek, Arab, French, German, Sicilian)for Zappa is puzzling. Is this list truly relevant? Most peninsular Southern Italians (PSI) have Greek ancestry, and a significant amount of Sicilians have Arab ancestry. Were Zappa's ancestors of Greek and Arab ancestry his more recent ancestors or is this something that he or a biographer based on probable ancestry from medieval and/or ancient times? If so, is this truly relavent? Same goes for his French and German ancestry. After the fall of Rome, wave after wave of northern Europeans "emigrated" to the Italian peninsula. Many of us (PSI here) have a jumbled ancestry that includes strains of German, French, Spanish, etc. As for Greek ancestry, Southern Italy was a frontier territory of Ancient Greece (part of Magna Grecia), and Greece eased its surplus population problems in ancient times by encouraging Greek immigration to Italy (esp. to Sicily and the lower half of the Italian peninsula). So again alot of PSI's have Greek ancestry. Sicily was under Saracen (ie. Arab) control for centuries, hence the Arab ancestry for many Sicilians. I can't find any hard evidence of Zappa's "diverse" ancestry. Please inform otherwise. I would be pleased to have my suspicions proven wrong (ie. that this diversity of ethnicities was unneccessarily amplified).--bobo 05:04, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

First Photo

The mood of the first photo would be a turn off to people who had never heard of Zappa. It smacks of the pretentious "Rock Musician turned composer" cliche. Let's have not so much serious chin stroking on the site - this is the man who penned "Bobby Brown Goes Down", and can pronounce the word "spindle" better than anyone. Perhaps a photo of a lubtricated buttplug (not in butt) with some sheet music of his work, tastefully overlaid, would be better.

Agreed.--TheUniversal 02:55, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Note on his name

I think "Zappa means "hoe" in Italian and "odor" in Russian." should be removed. Cant speak for the italian part but "Zappa" dose not mean odor in russian "Zapah" is the closest it comes to and even then its not exacly "odor" and the "h" is not silent so Zappa only margianly fits and their fore is not esential to the article.

Zappa DOES mean "hoe" in Italian. It is the precise Italian noun for the gardening tool known in English as "hoe".

Yes Zappa means "hoe" in Italian. It's also a quite popular surname in Italy.

Bad wording what I wanted to say was the Russian part should have been removed because its incorect I didnt not try to imply that Italian part was wrong as im in no position to correct Italian. My apologys if their is a misunderstanding.

1960's means Mothers?

I noticed that the structure of the article goes, Mothers, 1970's, 1980's and 1990's. Well, Zappa did quite a bit of stuff outside of the Mothers in the 1960's such as Lumpy Gravy, and Hot Rats, so, this section should really be renamed to the 1960's (and the Mothers perhaps), or moved to a new article simply based on the Mothers of Invention.

Agreed. For an outsider, it is very confusing. I have changed the section "The Mothers of Invention" to "The 1960s". I think it is obvious from the article that Zappa somestimes used the "Mothers" name and sometimes his own name.--HJ 10:08, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Picture of Zappa's statue

Hey all, I've uploaded a picture of Zappa's only known statue. Please insert this wherever you see fit in the article. Also, I think you should remove the 'Quotes' section, since it's all already in wikiquote. Volland 18:49, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

• Um, that photo is now included in two separate places in the article. I don't know how to edit for photos, can someone else do it? (never mind, i done it)Jdcooper 14:53, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Subgenius

As far as I am aware, Frank Zappa was never a registered member of the CotSG. While he might have met Ivan Stang and few of them (they were massive Zappa fans) and Zappa might have said something endorsing the church, I don't think he ever bothered registering. Permission to remove?--Knucmo2 11:00, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

If the person who added the info didn't supply any evidence for the assertion, go ahead. --Jacj 19:29, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

There's no information on this page about Frank Zappa and the Church of American Secular Humanism, which he founded. Does anyone have any information about this?--betakate 17:42, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

WHY?

There is a Frank_zappa page AND a Frank_Zappa page? and why are they different? (at times) This is very confusing and should be fixed.

They shouldn't be different - Frank zappa is what is called a "redirect" to Frank Zappa, so anyone going to the first page will automatically be sent to the second one (if you click on the first link you'll see "(Redirected from Frank zappa)" at the top of the page). --  ajn (talk) 08:59, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Vice Squad

The mention of the Vice Squad in the Frank-Zappa-as-pornographer anecdote linked to a band called the Vice Squad, which I don't believe is what was meant. I couldn't find an appropriate page, so I just removed the link. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.30.82.194 (talk • contribs) 18:24, 17 September 2005.

Purple Prose

In the Mothers section we have within the space of three paragraphs:

"The brilliant Absolutely Free (1967)"

"The dazzling audio collage Lumpy Gravy (1967)"

and...

"the stunning work he produced in the late Sixties with The Mothers"

--Communty.Bonus 03:09, 20 September 2005

Nando

jpgordon edited out "which was actually named by Nando!" from jellyfish (Phialella zappa which was actually named by Nando!), Esoteric perhaps, but not a personal comment. Nando was Zappa's friend and marine biologist who was inserted to "Lonesome Cowboy Bert" as "Lonesome Cowboy Nando" on "You Can't Do THat on Stage Anymore Vol 6", in fact Nando was inserted into the entire concert. Nando actually named the species. I read this somewhere, can't remember where, maybe someone else does. GangofOne 09:34, 24 October 2005 (UTC) It's all explained in the given link. GangofOne 09:44, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

"still trying to trim this down to maintain brevity without sacrificing required detail"

Knucmo2, please don't. You're removing interesting facts. Who cares how long it is. Only people reading this are fans anyway. GangofOne 01:44, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

If were writing it for fans why do we not lavish praise upon the great man? It's an encyclopedia article, and a chief virtue of articles of this kind are succinctness and brevity. There are far too many bits in this article that are bordering on irrelevance, and the page is becoming too large. The section on his adolescence is far too large compared with his later work. The significant periods are deserving of more attention. The article is 43 KB, if every musical artist had a page this size, the servers wouldn't be able to handle it.--Knucmo2 16:00, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

• OK, for this and the previous comment -- you're wrong. "Only people reading this are fans" is simply untrue; this is not a fan site, this is an encyclopedia. It's not the place for fannish remarks like "actually named by Nando!", unless you're going to include a description of who or what Nando is; otherwise, it's a dead-end reference. Perhaps it would be appropriate to say "blah blah jellyfish, named by Zappa's friend blah blah blah". But "actually named by Nando" conveys no information to the reader. Signed, a devoted Zappa fan since 1966. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 03:57, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

I never said we were writing it for the fans - my first sentence was a rhetorical question. --Knucmo2 17:56, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not saying it can't be worded better. Go right ahead.GangofOne 05:49, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

I already did. You reverted it. If the information has any special value, please put it in in an encyclopedic fashion. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 14:42, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Agreed with people suggesting revision for brevity. I wanted to read about Zappa's work overall, since I know little more than his name and feel that the forest is being lost for the trees. Guess that's the problem with a fan-generated encyclopedia. --Evan Donovan 21:30, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

I think the main article should talk mostly about his music, and we should have a (history) article as well. Alternately, the main page could be a biography, and we could have a (music) article. --66.241.95.65 17:49, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

"(with an I.Q. of 173)," added by 24.253.120.206

Documentation? or did you just make it up? GangofOne 05:26, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

This sounds like opinion, I've found nothing as regards an IQ test for Zappa.--Knucmo2 16:03, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Of course I did not make it up. Refer to Estimated I.Q.s of Eminent Geniuses site.--User:24.253.120.206

Show us the url GangofOne 01:40, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

The url is http://hem.bredband.net/b153434/Q&A/Q&A_4.htm, where his I.Q. is stated to be 172 (St.-Bin). (I had meant to write 172.) --User:24.253.120.206

• And in what way is that website a credible source? --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 02:21, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

If you've ever seen his appearance on [[CNN Crossfire]] in the 80's it's easy to recognize that frank zappa is a genius. he admits to never finishing high school yet when it comes to regular logic and honest meaningful agrumentation he takes the CAKE. i think this entire show can be found on ifilm.com. anyway i just want you all to know i worship zappa eben though he may be kitchsy as hell sometimes. also is there a mention of his family on here? it may add too much length but maybe there should be a sepperqate article - his success as a father or maybe rather his genes's success at replicating should be noted. my friend thinks soliel moon frye Amirman 07:59, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Frank and Drugs

Even in interviews from the late sixties (!), Frank often said things critical of drug use and drug-usage fads. It has often been written that he frowned on the musicians in his touring groups getting stoned while on the road; some have said that he just plain fired some of those who broke his rules in this regard. While people frequently did lump his music in with the hippie and psychedelic music of the times, it is sometimes said that Frank never tried LSD or other major psychedlic and had little or no experience with marijuana. How much of this is true? Was he anti-psychedelic (in the pharmacological sense)?

These questions (given the period of his life, the milieu in which he worked, succeeded, and became famous) would be very interesting to answer in the article. - M. Coral

I used to have a tape of one of his anti-drug radio public-service promos from roughly 1970. (its lost to time, now)

something like "Speed is bad for you. This drug ruin your body. This drug will rot your mind. In other words, this drug will make you just like your mother and father."

kills me that I lost it. I think it's pictured in _ZappaLog_. Anyway, in some interviews Zappa said he tried pot (Barry Miles says 10 times, I think) and it just made him sleepy and couldn't see why people smoked it. He was chain smoker and heavy coffee drinker, regarding them as food. He said he liked wine. (Could probably dig up the reference to which interviews, eventually.) I always think of his music as heavily caffeinated. Think of "G-Spot Tornado" GangofOne 20:22, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

I doubt you can dig up the reference to his liking of wine. As far as I know Frank disliked alcohol - "I'm an absolutely sober person. I don't consume alcohol. I don't smoke weed." - this taken from a 1976 interview with FZ.--Knucmo2 11:32, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

In The Real Frank Zappa Book (his autobiography), Zappa says that he had tried marijuana, but he didn't like it, and if he did, he would have continued to smoke it, as he liked to smoke. But he preferred cigarettes. (Ibaranoff24 05:38, 21 January 2006 (UTC))

To elaborate, the book says that Zappa tried pot about 10 times, but it just gave him a sore throat and made him sleepy.

Quoted from his self-bio, the Real Frank Zappa Book:

"Between 1962 and 1968, on maybe ten occasions, I experienced the 'joys' of socially circulated marijuana. It gave me a sore throat and made me sleepy. I couldn't understand why people liked it so much. (If I had liked it, I'd probably be smoking it today, since I like to smoke.)"

Personal Views

There seems to be little mention of his personal views, even though he was quite passionate about them. These would include his attitude toward drug use, religion, and most importantly censorship. The censorship issues he worked on should probably at least have a sub-heading.

Yeah, a lot of this filters through into his music - like "Cocaine Decisions" or "Heavenly Bank Account" --Knucmo2 19:04, 14 February 2006 (UTC).

• It also doesn't mention him being a "practical conservative." Somebody deleted the "conservatives" category, also. (Ibaranoff24 17:13, 15 February 2006 (UTC))

• For completeness, it may be worth noting his frustration with getting musicians to execute his compositions, a likely factor leading to his use of synclavier in his later recordings, and the associated incident in which Art Jarvinen synced a "live" performance of Zappa's work with a recording. 64.132.183.22 02:11, 28 March 2006 (UTC)Paul A64.132.183.22 02:11, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, but can you blame 'em? Not like people are used to reading music with no patterns. For those who are curious, Zappa was planning on having this orchestra/group perform some of his works, but the director was worried they wouldn't have time to practice the difficult parts. FZ basically told the guy to use a recording, and have wires coming from the instruments, explaining to the audience that they were microphones. Everyone was outraged when they found out it was a recording (which wasn't until well after the performance was over), which was (and still is) proof that people aren't even aware of the music that they are listening to (ashlee simpson incident, anyone?) :P -FZfan 4/06/06

Pomona College?

In the Pomona College article, it states Zappa was a "famous dropout" yet I don't see it mentioned anywhere here... Is there proof one way or the other about this? --kris 19:46, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't know about his attendance but the Pomona Valley Symphony Orchestra recorded the music that Zappa wrote for the "World's Greatest Sinner" as directed by Tim Carey. Maybe there's a mix-up? --Knucmo2 16:04, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

In interview Zappa said he attended one semester of a college (I don't remember which one), studied Music Compostion with guy who wrote the movie. (Or was it Run Homw Slow) In another interview he said he attended one semester to get laid, in which he was sucessful. GangofOne 06:40, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Man from Utopia - Artwork

The Artwork from "Man from Utopia" was done by the artist who created the comic figure "Rank Zerox". In the Artwork from the album FZ is depicted as a Rank-like Robot (very angry) with plenty of other spoofs (see the audience).

It's actually RanXerox and the artist is Tanino Liberatore Hamster Sandwich 02:15, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Saturday Night Live Episode

I don't think this can be verified, but this episode has been aired as a repeat on NBC in 2002-2003.

Including References

Would it be possible for some of us to begin work on a references section, so that this article can obtain featured status? I'm sure many fans would love to see Frank on the front page, but it won't be possible until there are citations of the sources used. I'm going to get started on this myself shortly, but it's a big task and some help would really be appreciated. 81.155.38.197 00:07, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

This has been done by the looks of it. The best source is Slaven's book for factual accuracy I would say. Miles' book is too full of opinion as is Ochiogrosso's. --Knucmo2 15:58, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

posssible additions (i'm drunk)

If you've ever seen his appearance on CNN Crossfire (see CNN Crossfire) in the 80's it's easy to recognize that frank zappa is a genius. he admits to never finishing high school yet when it comes to regular logic and honest meaningful agrumentation (see argument) he takes the CAKE. i think this entire show can be found on ifilm.com. anyway i just want you all to know i worship zappa eben though he may be kitchsy as hell sometimes. also is there a mention of his family on here? it may add too much length but maybe there should be a sepperqate article - his success as a father or maybe rather his genes's success at replicating should be noted. my friend thinks Soleil Moon Frye is his daughter when it's really Moon Unit Zappa, fuckin hippies, j/kAmirman 07:59, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

When you look at this in the morning, you're gonna wish you never posted it! --Knucmo2 12:29, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

This is good to go...

{{fac}}

Grammy Reference

I added a note about Zappa's grammy award for Jazz from Hell. Can someone add the album cover image of Jazz From Hell at the end of the 1980's section of the main article to go witht he grammy note? Thanks

64.132.183.22 01:58, 28 March 2006 (UTC)Paul A64.132.183.22 01:58, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Monkees / "200 Motels"

When discussing Zappa appearing on a Monkees episode it is stated that Zappa played Nesmith whilst Nesmith played Zappa. Didn't this also happen on "200 Motels" with Ringo Starr and Zappa (and, er, Aynsley Dunbar with Ringo?) swapping roles, with even more rediculous "costume changes" since there was already a passing similarity between the two (i.e. they were white, dark haired and had large "handlebar" moustaches)?LessHeard vanU 23:02, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Starr does appear as "Zappa" in the movie. --Knucmo2 15:57, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Why is everything underlined?

It makes it very distracting for the reader.Bronayur 18:02, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Hyacinth 18:40, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Style cleanup

This article needs minor tweaking throughout to improve the style, as in this edit to the intro. I haven't put a cleanup tag on because that would be OTT I think.Tyrenius 05:05, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

You're right, as most of it is fine by the Manual of Style. I've cleaned up several sentences that sounded awkward and clumsy and tried to factor out some of the POV that was in the article (the link to anarchism being the funniest one; I remember reading somewhere Zappa refused to accept the position as president of the Libertarian party because they were "closet anarchists".) I've only done up to the end of the sixties as I make this post, I think the grammar gets better from there on out, but we'll see. --Knucmo2 15:55, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Meaning of "zappa"

On the "Notes about his name" section, I removed the part about "zappa" meaning "garden hoe" in Italian. Since his surname is reportedly Greek, zappa's Italian meaning is not relevant.

Peculiar sentence

He also appeared on TV show Crossfire 1986, and explicitly implied...

What the heck does "explicitly implied" mean? --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 17:25, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Haha, I think its a contradiction. An implication is always implicit; that is a tautology and trivial. --Knucmo2 15:02, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Has been changed now (June 4, 2006); i.e., "explicitly" is deleted (not be me, I just report it)--HJ 22:37, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

The Läther sub-section

While I do not disagree with the contents of the Läther story, I think this part of hassle between Franks and record company gets way to much weight in the 1970's section. After all, it is a minor thing compared to the HUGE amount of diverse material he released. Also, his whole career was full of intended box sets that never was realized. I think in an Encyclopedia one should stick with facts, and just mention that the four albums in question were part of a never realized project, that was released after his dead.--HJ 14:39, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Deleted sentence containing unsubstaintiated claim

I removed the sentence "He also became known for dismissing the contributions of his musicians, going so far as to withhold royalties rather than share the glory." This is completely unsubstantiated, and requires definitely a reference in order to stay. Surely, some former band members were not on good terms with Zappa, and at some point a law suit was set up (led by Don Preston, I think, when the Old Masters Vol. 1 - Box Set was released). But to the best of my knowledge Zappa was never convicted of any such fraud. Unless that can be proven, I think the sentence should not be there.--HJ 20:10, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Theremin

The sentence "Allegedly, a theremin was used at some live performance making use of the unique sound characteristic." is removed. It is an assertion, and if true not a very crucial one for describing Zappa/Mothers.--HJ 10:09, 1 July 2006 (UTC)