Talk:France

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Need some changes, France is the fourth world economic power ! Unsigned

Your talking out your arse mate!--Connor1234 21:39, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 Minor Errors in History 2 Pentagon or Hexagon? 3 Pronunciation 4 Language stats 5 Le Tour de France 6 Kritik 7 Removal of semi-protection 8 Edits by PierreLarcin2 9 Famous French People 10 French Revolution 11 France in WWII 12 Population growth 13 Map 14 Spaceport 15 Infobox 16 Economic Power 17 République française or République Française 18 Protected tag 19 Question 20 Foreign Language 21 Europe map 22 Size 23 to little info 24 Re Map 25 Non-standard and potentially POV map should be reverted 26 Suggestion 27 Update needed 28 Ethnic Groups Percentages 29 Questionable statistics

[edit] Minor Errors in History

"The monarchy reached its height during the 17th century and the reign of Louis XIV."

This is subjective, and it could also be argued that the monarchy was at its height (relative to the rest of the world): - When Charlemagne was Holy Roman Emperor - in the late 12th to 13th centuries (when the Univ of Paris was established making it the center of the intellectual universe in Europe, the Phillipe-Auguste wall was erected, the gothic style and cathedrals were established, Paris was the most populous city on planet Earth, etc....). Plus, it was Louis XIV's withdrawal to Versailles that eventually led to a disconnect between the monarchy and the people, an erosion of power, and eventually the revolution. However, there is no question in my mind (or anyone else who has visited Versailles) that Louis XIV preferred to think of himself as the pinnacle of the French monarchy (e.g., statues of him dressed in Roman regalia identical to adjacent- smaller- statues of Caesar).

Another point:

"Following Napoleon's defeat in 1815 at the Battle of Waterloo, the French monarchy was re-established."

This is partly true, but it neglects to mention that Napoleon was first exiled after his first downturn...then escaped, returned and raised an army, and was THEN defeated at Waterloo (after which he was more carefully exiled).

Edit to the Edit: Charlemagne was crowned Holy Roman Emperor in 800.

[edit] Pentagon or Hexagon?

The article claims France is referred to as a hexagon, but I always thought it was more like a pentagon. For comparison:

I guess the Spanish border and the Med coast are regarded as two sides, but they form a more or less straight line so conform more to a single pentagon side. IMHO anyway. — SteveRwanda 13:56, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

It does not really matter, this has been the nickname given by French people to the country for so many years that noone will change it now. FYI, yes the Spanish border and the Med are considered as two sides, and none of the other sides are equal, so lets call it an irregular hexagon, anyway this is an approximation. Perpignan is more South than Bayonne and Nice so that make two edges. Blastwizard 20:19, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it's not really rational, but note that mainly journalists use this term, as a synonym, to avoid using the word 'france' ten times in the same sentence. You often here on TV: "Les quatres coins de l'hexagone" (the four corners of the hexagon)...JeDi 09:33, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

Fine in Firefox but gobbledegook in IE. Can someone make it more universal? Rich Farmbrough 08:19 15 May 2006 (UTC).

It looked fine when I was using IE...Do you mean you don't want to use the IPA? SCHZMO ✍ 20:03, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

"...Ah, French; the language the the french people use but choose to leave out half the sounds in their pronunciation and then annoys the rest of us..."

[edit] Language stats

It doesn't quite work. Next to the 102% you have the smaller of the two numbers (45,xxx) and then in the notes you have the larger number (46,xxx). But 46,xxx is clearly 102%, while 45,xxx is the 100%. So they should probably be swapped round. I think. I confused myself just writing that. Damiancorrigan 15:38, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Le Tour de France

Alright, I can't add anything since this I only set this account up a day ago, but I would like to make a suggestion for the page. Shouldn't there be some reference to the Tour De France in here? Most of my friends and some of my teachers know only a few things about France. 1) That's where the Eiffel Tower is, 2) That's were berets are from, 3) They like dogs(especially poodles), 4) Oui means yes, au revoir means goodbye, and 5) Every year in the Tour de France Lance Armstrong kicks all the European's butts. Since this is what pretty much 95% of the people I hang out with know about France, I think it should get at least a passing glance. Bobthellama9 01:58, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

If you are talking about the Tour de France, it is just a cycling comptetition, and I'm sure you can add something about it yourself. About Amstrong kicking European butts, maybe you can add a paragraph on Doping (sport) :). Just kidding. JeDi 21:16, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Year ! :) And this year Armstrong won't win ! - Lpn- 10:14, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

you are underestimating the culteral significance of the tour de france. think of it as superbowl sunday lasting a month.

[edit] Kritik

Can we write about cited criticizm of the French government? .tg Tonyseeker 10:12, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

• Surely that should be in a different article, like "Corruption scandals of the Chirac presidency" or something? I don't think it belongs in the general page about the country.User: Jaganath 11:28 8 June 2006 (UTC)

"criticizm of the French government" do you have similar sections in the other countries? i don't think so, so there is no need to make an exception. this is not a movie review. Shame On You 14:02, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

(Plus a list of criticisms would take up at least 6 years of typing)

[edit] Removal of semi-protection

I wonder if it really was such a good idea to unprotect this article. This is the kind of article that will be vandalized very often and very frequently (there is a strong anti-french sentiment in some countries where English is spoken) if we don't protect it in one way or another. All edits that have been made since the protection was removed seem to be either to vandalize, or to fight vandalism. It's probably not a question of organized vandalism, but rather spontaneous things done by children and adolescents (as well as stupid and immature adults) who doesn't know better or have anything else to do with their time. And as long as they have access to the Internet, and some time to kill, the vandalism will most likely continue. Why not re-protect this article? It's really a shame that many editors and administrators here on Wikipedia have to take time to fight vandalism instead of doing more constructive things. /Magore 20:40, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Agree with User:Magore removing the semi-protection was like opening the Pandora box a second time. Blastwizard 22:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Agree with User:Magore there is such strong anti-french sentiment out there that soon this page will be trashed with "Go eat snails and die" or "Don't oui oui oui me punk!" The Holy Hand Grenade Attack Llama#42 01:51, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Agree with User:Magore. Read what I wrote below. Hardouin 23:57, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Agree with User:Magore. Francophobia is ridiculous but so real --Mgill 11:38, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

now its England's turn to be vandalized, Anglophobia is ridiculous but so real... Shame On You 14:05, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edits by PierreLarcin2

I have removed recent edits by User:PierreLarcin2. Not only these edits were written in barely understandable English (please at least use an English dictionary if you intend to edit articles on the English Wikipedia), but they were full of inaccuracies and POV. Here are a few examples:

• this user described Vendée as "a subpart of French Britain"
• this user removed the fact that France was eventually victorious in both WW1 and WW2 and replaced the sentence with a lengthy paragraph about the Vichy Regime and its wrongdoings. The history section is only a brief presentation of 2000 years of French history. If you want to write more in detail about the Vichy regime, try Vichy France.
• in the following sentence (about France's birth rate), the user added what's in bold: "France is now well ahead of all other European countries (except for the Republic of Ireland), despite a pro-abortion legislation." I am surprised nobody reverted that earlier.
• this user added the following sentence (referring to French agriculture and EU subsidies): "This allow many conflicts in the European Union, due to the support of France to the European PAC (Politique Agricole Commune - Common Land Politics), which allows subsidiation of land farmers across Europe." That sounds like straight from the English tabloid press, although the English press wouldn't use the Frenglish word "subsidiation".
• in the economic section the user explained that the reason why the French GDP per capita is significantly lower than the US GDP per capita, despite France having a higher productivity than the US, is because of delocalizations to China. That's simply economic nonsense.
• this user wrote that the euro "replaced all major european moneys (except Norway and United Kingdom)". Beyond the bad use of English vocabulary (moneys instead of currencies), the sentence is also silly since Norway (not part of the EU) is mentioned but Sweden and Denmark (EU member states which haven't adopted the euro) are not mentioned.
• this user wrote that France's nuclear force is "spread between strategic submarines and conventional strategic missiles (located on 'Plateau d'Albion')", which is not true. The missiles on the Plateau d'Albion were dismantled in 1996.

Hardouin 23:56, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Famous French People

I don't think this section should be included, it is messy and long. It's much better as a link to the main article in the "see also" section. Jackp 09:03, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

When you eliminated the list here, did you assure that all of the folks on our list are on List of French people? If you did, then "Good work!", I think you made a useful change.

Atlant 11:07, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

A complete list of famous french people who were actualy somewhat interesting (to people other than themselves) and somewhat worthy to be mentioned in the annals of History is as follows: Napoleon Bondapart and Jaques Clousou.

[edit] French Revolution

In the History section, the reference to the French Revolution as it is gives somewhat a narrow view of the event: "The monarchy ruled France until 1789, when the French Revolution took place. King Louis XVI and wife, Marie Antoinette, were killed, along with thousands of other French citizens." Although the events described in the second sentence are true, using half of the text dedicated to the French Revolution (only two sentences) to remind the slaughtering of Kind Louis the XVI, Marie Antoinette and many French citizens, seems to reduce the event, which had such a broad impact on French and European history and culture, to a pathetic massacre. --DR.fr 20:29, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

In my humble opinion, the thousands in the quoted statement makes it seem like much more than a massacre. I think of a massacre as anywhere between a dozen to a couple hundred, (300 works fine), but a number that large attracts some reverence. The Holy Hand Grenade Attack Llama#42 18:24, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

As someone whose family suffered horribly during the French Revolution, I say the horrors of the French Revolution need to be exposed in all their glory. The Vendee Genocide, the Terror, etc.

My ancestor lost his head for one reason: he was a Catholic bishop. The French Revolution was a disaster. Let's avoid whitewashing one of the greatest tragedies in human history.--Pravknight 01:27, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

As someone whose family was liberated from peasantry and oppression of a violent regime I wouldn't dare to think of the French Revolution as a disaster.

The Terror is something else. a period of chaos always ensues a revolution, no pride has to be found in that but it helped the development of a more liberal regime, which along with the US revolution led the way to Democracy as we know it now. Apart from that, i admit that not everything has to be applauded, there are crooks and cheaters everywhere. your ancestor lost his head for being anti-revolutionary, as many people back then... He happened to be on the wrong side of the fence, I am sorry about your family's history, but you have to admit we are all better off with that thing having happened.

So my dear friends who regret our King, I for one do not regret the beheadings of thousands of aristocrats, which were giving exactly the same treatment back to their subjects for a thousand years and letting them die with hunger when they were living in lavish conditions. For once the weak took the fight back to the powerful. I do not regret that. Too bad for "one of the greatest tragedies in human history" that it liberated a whole Nation from its King... I'm sure you regret the slaughtering of the Nazis too, don't you? please, stop repeating what your family taught you and look at the bigger picture. And remember that we are living in a different world nowadays, death penalty wasn't so frowned upon back then... Flo 16:22, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] France in WWII

I noticed that the phrase "Invaded and subdued by German forces" has been removed a couple times. Isn't that exactly what happened? France was invaded by Germany and surrendered pretty easily, if I recall correctly.—BassBone (my talk · my contributions) 01:50, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

"Invaded and subdued" is a correct description, minor semantics aside, but the French did not surrender easily at all. There were hundreds of thousands of French casualties in the Battle of France. They were simply beaten very decisively and had no option but to surrender when it was said and done. The surrender contextually was very sensical; other nations had also surrendered to Germany in similar conditions. There was simply little else they could do.UberCryxic 17:28, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

"Pretty easily"? If I remember correctly, there were between 200,000 and 300,000 casualties in a few weeks of conflict. Ok, that's not the 1-2 millions of World War I, but it's still a lot. Additionally, I may mention that a number of French units and Maginot line bastions were still fighting when they were ordered to surrender by the new government (which came to power by a kind of coup d'état authorized by demoralized politicians). David.Monniaux 01:42, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

There seems to be no mention of France being invaded and defeated by Germany in World War II. What's going on here? This is a pretty big part of the country's history that it seems is being brushed under the rug. If it keeps getting deleted, then maybe something needs to be done about this, for credibility's sake. Dankostka 03:32, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah agreed. I don't think anybody is purposefully deleting it though. The History section is problematic in general because it is far too short. There's a lot of other stuff that has also been left out.UberCryxic 21:21, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

If I could contribute a personal anecdote here. My grandmother lived near the Maginot Line in 1940, and she said the French soldiers didn't put up much of a fight. They ran, half of them barefoot, as fast as they could to get away from the Germans. My grandmother, like other Frenchmen and Frenchwomen, was forced to live in hiding from the Germans until 1944. The pride of my French cousins is sickening, and I mean cousins by blood.

I'm a French-American whose great-grandfather fought on the Western front in a French uniform. My grandmother knows better or as well as any historian what happened there because she saw it first hand.--Pravknight 01:32, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

That's very true, I myself have been an expert in rocket science since I saw parts in a museum...

Most soldiers in the Maginot line did not "put up much of a fight" because their fortifications were away from the battlefield. In the cases of components of the Maginot line which did come under attack, fighting occurred, for the sorrow of the German units, and surrender did not occure until after the armistice, on direct orders from Vichy.

On the personal part, I see no reason to be proud of deeds that are not yours ; should you need to go as far as the deeds of your grand-parents to find your pride, though, I fear that even the most cowardly French soldier of 1940 saw more action that the bravest US soldier of the same time. On this respect, the USA should be very grateful to the Japanese to have been so kind as to hunt them up their lair. Rama 12:43, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Addressing Rama's second paragraph: You would be correct that in 1940 the most cowardly of French soldiers saw more action than the bravest of US soldiers in 1940. Uhmmm....the US did not go to war until December 1941. Can you restate/rewrite your last sentence? I understand that it is intended to be an insult of sometype, but it doesn't make any sense as written. MJCdetroit 13:34, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

This is what I meant yes. The 1940 thing, not the insult ; the fact is, whether or not this is to be taken as an insult is a matter of personal appreciation. Rama 21:23, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Rama is absolutely right. The 400,000 or so soldiers defending the Maginot Line put up stout and heroic resistance against the Germans. Despite how often it is ridiculued, the Maginot Line actually did its job: the Germans did not get through from there. Pravknight's little story is both uninteresting and we would have an anectodal logical fallacy if we were to somehow presume that French soldiers fled because your grandma happened to see a few them flee personally. Sorry...we don't care. Most French soldiers on all fronts put up a good fight, but one of the very important lessons of military history is that heroism usually does not compensate for tactical and strategic shortcomings, and France had plenty of the latter two in 1940.UberCryxic 05:06, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Keegan, certainly not the most pro-French fellow, writes this in the Second World War (1989):

[After the Weygand Plan, so we're in June now] Frenchmen in uniform were still fighting, often to the death. Like the Belgians, they found at the approach of defeat an outraged capacity for self-sacrifice. At Toul, behind the Maginot Line, the 227th Regiment of Infantry fought on long after it had been surrounded. At Saumur the students of the Cavalry School held the bridges over the Loire from 19 to 20 June until their ammunition ran out. The garrison of the Maginot Line itself, 400,000 strong, refused all calls to surrender; only one section of blockhouses was ever to be captured by German attack. South of the Loire an officer of the Fifth Army watched a 'small group of Chasseurs Alpins from the 28th Division cross on 17 June. They were 'led by a sergeant covered with dust, their uniforms in rags, marching in order and in step, the men bent forward, pulling with both hands at the straps of their equipment. Some were wounded, the dressings stained with dirt and blood. Some slept as they marched, ghosts bowed under the weight of their packs and rifles. They passed in silence, with an air of fierce determination'.

Comrades-in-arms of these mountain troops were meanwhile confronting Mussolini's attack on the Riviera across the Alpes Maritimes, Italy having declared war on 10 June. Four French divisions stood in the path of twenty-eight Italian divisions. They held their ground without difficulty, yielding nowhere more than two kilomteres of front, losing only eight men killed against Italian casualties of nearly 5,000. Eventually, in desperation, the Italian high command asked for German transport aircraft to land a battalion behind the French lines, as a token of success. 'The whole thing is the usual kind of fraud,' wrote Hadler. 'I have made it clear I won't have my name mixed up in this business'.

Hope that was helpful and cleared some misconceptions.UberCryxic 05:20, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

see also the article Military history of France during World War II Shame On You 22:52, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Population growth

" the population of the European Union increased by 216,000 inhabitants (without immigration), of which 211,000 was the increase in France's population alone, and 5,000 was the increase in all the other countries of the EU combined"

It does not make sense. The paragraph speaks as if France had the absolute majority of population growth, but that was not so. Some other EU countries had much population growth too. The statement that "5,000 was the increase in all the other countries of the EU combined" is misleading, because some other countries had more than a 5,000 population growth. The total growth is '216,000' only because some countries had decreased population. For example, France had a 211,000 growth, country B had a 211,000 growth, but country C had a 206,000 decrease. That still makes the total growth '216,000', but to say '5,000 was the increase in all the other countries of the EU combined' is false, because country C's decrease cannot be counted inside the increase. If the example of mine is true (which it is not) and if there are only three countries in EU, then the sentence should be, for example, "and 211,000 was the increase in all the other countries combined, though there is a 206,000 decrease in country C, causing a 5,000 population growth in all the countries in EU except France". Some sources are also needed. Aranherunar 07:03, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

exactly how many immigrants are in france???

A recent census study says 5 million, but we'd have to check the definitions involved. David.Monniaux 05:07, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Je pense qu'il est rediculous et inhumain pour que le Français indique que le RPF a tiré en bas de l'avion. C'est un mensonge. Les extrémistes hutus ont tiré en bas de l'avion, parce qu'ils ont voulu créer la propagande contre les tutsis et le RPF. C'est pourquoi les hutus ont blâmé le RPF « incitent » la fête de massacre. Les Français d'une part, sont justes blâmant le RPF de se briser de l'avion afin de s'excuser pour leur coopération avec le gouvernement hutu génocide. Le Français a coopéré avec le gouvernement hutu à éliminer les Tutsis ! Quand l'entente de paix a été signée entre le RPF et le gouvernement en 1993, le gouvernement hutu était fâché et juste a voulu trouver une manière de rester dans la puissance, parce qu'ils ont su qu'ils desserraient au RPF. C'est pourquoi le gouvernement hutu a fouetté dehors leur colère sur la population tutsie parce qu'ils ne pourraient pas défaire le RPF. Ils ont juste voulu employer la propagande et leur petite station par radio stupide pour provoquer la haine contre le Tutsi. Cependant, l'ironie de ceci est que le tutsi au Rwanda n'ont rien à faire avec le RPF. Le RPF a été basé en Ouganda. Ils consisited des Tutsis qui ont décidé de quitter le Rwanda pour se sauver l'Ouganda quand les Hutus sont venus pour actionner dans les années 50. Les tutsis au Rwanda étaient ceux qui ont décidé de rester. De façon générale, le tutsi et la violence de hutu n'est pas nouveau mais elle n'est pas vieille. Il y avait un temps que les Tutsis et les Hutus ont vécu ensemble dans la paix. Tout était untill correct allant que les Belges ignorants sont entré et ont pratiqué se divisent et conquièrent (une stratégie européenne typique). Les Belges ont divisé le Tutsi et le Hutu, et depuis puis, ils ont observé dans le divertissement comme Tutsi et combat hutu. Quand le Français « interviened » dans le génocide rwandais en 1994, ils sont venus pour observer, rire, et soutenir le gouvernement hutu, pas économiser le Tutsi et pour arrêter les massacres. Quoi qu'il en soit, le RPF étaient victorius, quoiqu'ils aient combattu tous par eux-mêmes. Le plus, le RPF ne devrait pas n'être blâmé d'aucun massacre. Le RPF a dû faire leur travail. S'il was'nt pour le RPF, tous tutsis et hutus modérés de l'été mort en raison du gouvernement hutu, des extrémistes hutus, et des troupes françaises ! ! !

Could you please translate it to English? Bigtop 21:02, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I read and understand French, and this is what it translates to (it must be a random French Person): "I think that it is rediculous and inhumane for the French to say that the RPF shot down the plane. That is a lie. The Hutu extremists shot down the plane, because they wanted to create propaganda against the tutsis and the RPF. That's why the hutus blamed the RPF in order to "incite" the killing spree. The French on the other hand, are just blaming the RPF for the crashing of the plane in order to excuse themselves for their cooperation with the genocidal Hutu Government. The French cooperated with the Hutu government to wipe out the Tutsis! When the Peace accord was signed between the RPF and the Government in 1993, the Hutu government was angry and just wanted to find a way to stay in power, because they knew that they were loosing to the RPF. That's why the Hutu government lashed out their anger on the Tutsi population because they could not defeat the RPF. They just wanted to use propaganda and their little stupid radio station to provoke hatred against the Tutsi. However, the irony of this is that the tutsi in Rwanda have nothing to do with the RPF. The RPF was based in Uganda. They consisited of Tutsis who decided to leave Rwanda to flee Uganda when the Hutus came to power in the 1950s. The tutsis in Rwanda were those who decided to stay. Overall, the tutsi and hutu violence is not new but it is not old. There was a time that the Tutsis and Hutus lived together in peace. Everything was going okay untill the ignorant belgians came in and practiced divide and conquer( a typical European strategy). The Belgians divided the Tutsi and Hutu, and ever since then, they have watched in entertainment as the Tutsi and Hutu fight each other. When the French "interviened" in the Rwandan Genocide in 1994, they came to watch,laugh, and support the Hutu government, not save the Tutsi and stop the killings. Anyway, the RPF were victorius, even though they fought all by themselves. Plus, the RPF should not be blamed for any massacres. The RPF had to do their job. If it was'nt for the RPF, all the tutsis and moderate hutus would of been dead because of the Hutu government, Hutu extremists, and the French troops!!!" You know, it sounds kind of funny, but I think I agree with what is being said.

The above French paragraph is an out-of-topic, badly written rant about the role of France is the civil war and genocides in Rwanda. I suspect that it was translated automatically -- "shoot down the plane" translates into "abattre l'avion", not "tiré en bas de l'avion" (which means "deliberately firing in the direction of the plane, as to miss it, the projectiles passing down the plane") Rama 11:16, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Map

Why is French Guiana not included in the map in the infobox? - Jack (talk) 22:27, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, the article cites that "France also shares land borders with Brazil, Suriname, and the Netherlands Antilles", yet no mention is made in the article of French Guiana. The Dutch Antilles are even included in the article on the Kingdom of the Netherlands. As I don't know how to edit maps proficiently myself, would somebody else be able to amend the map? Liam Plested 23:44, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spaceport

The article says France is "the only European power (excluding Russia) to have its own national spaceport (Centre Spatial Guyanais)", yet the spaceport pages does not include this in the list of European spaceports, and lists other European spaceports besides. One of the articles must be in error. 68.6.122.202 02:15, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

=Answer=: The Guyane spacesport is listed in South America, since it is on the south-american continent. So both articles are rights, we just have to remember that France has a colony in South America. ;) 82.127.252.108 22:41, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

France does not have a colony in South America. It has a part of itself in South America. Rama 23:07, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

France has two types of overseas collony, there are "teritory" where people have some autonomy and there are also department wich are ruled almost like a metropolitan place (same rule or organisation in normandie as in La Reunion), Guyane is considered as a department so you are applied to the same laws in Kuru spaceport as in a random paris subhurb market place. So it's not merely a colony, it's a part of itself :) . Esurnir 02:37, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox

The consensus on the talk page some while ago was that the standard country infobox cannot accurately account for France's specific situation (metropolitan France vs. entire territory of the French Republic, including overseas France). That's why a specific infobox was created. This specific infobox copies for the most part the standard country infobox, but has specific entries to allow disambiguation between metropolitan France's figures and figures for the entire Republic. Before deleting this infobox, explain your reasons here, and give other contributors some time to express themselves. Hardouin 22:44, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

The Template:Infobox country has been changed to allow for these differences. Indeed, there is virtually no difference between the use of the Template:Infobox country and the single use template. --Bob 22:50, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Then in that case why does your infobox contains a "Water (%)" entry when French authorities do not report this figure? This sounds straight out of the CIA World Factbook. Your mention of the "Holy Roman Empire" is also inaccurate. 843 was the legal foundation of the French State, not of the Holy Roman Empire. You also deleted the land area as reported by the French Land Register. Why? You also deleted the INSEE reference for the population figure. Again why? Finally, in Internet Explorer at least, your infobox format is completely screwed up, whereas the specific infobox appeared neatly, with figures on the same lines as entries (whereas on your infobox many figures appear below or above their entries). If your infobox is not an improvement, I see no point in replacing the current infobox really. Hardouin 23:00, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

On my browser, it works just fine. I see no point in abusing the template namespace. The insee reference is there. The water percentage is something that is included in the other box but could be made optional, in fact, I will probably make it so. Finally, it is not my infobox, but one which is implemented on virtually every other country on Wikipedia. --Bob 23:04, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Format issues are important ones. This is how the specific infobox looked: Image:SpeInf.png and this is how the standard infobox looks now: Image:StInf.png (Ed note: the following images have been nowiki'd in order in show the talk page more clearly. Please copy and paste the Image:xxx.png into the search box to the left if you desire to see the images click the links.)16:06, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

As you can see, several things are screwed up. Many lines are broken and now appear as two lines (e.g. "Dominique de Villepin" appears on two lines, the total area also appears on two lines, with the superscript "2" awkwardly appearing alone on the second line). Also, notice how below "population" the "2006 est." entry and the "metropolitan France" entry appear as if there was a gap, or an extra blank line, between the two, whereas if you look on the right, "61,044,684" appears closer to "63,587,700" than to "110/km²". None of these problems happened with the specific infobox.

For population figures, it is also better to have a "Total" entry rather than a "2006 est." entry, because otherwise the 63 million figure will be quite puzzling for people used to metropolitan France's population figures. That's why in the specific infobox the date was put immediately below the word "population" in a separate entry.

Also note how some of the superscripts awkwardly appear inside parenthesis E.g. we have "(89th ³)", instead of the more logical way in which superscripts appeared in the specific infobox. Hardouin 23:34, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't see the wrapping... Maybe something wrong with your browser. Also, having the superscripts in the brackets is no more awkward than having them next to the ² of km². IMHO, there is no difference between saying 1 January 2006 and 2006 est., as, after all, it is an estimate based on the previous census. --Bob 23:46, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

This is how it looks for me: Image:France_screenshot.jpg (Ed note: the following image has been nowiki'd in order in show the talk page more clearly. Please copy and paste the Image:xxx.png into the search box to the left if you desire to see the images click the links.)16:06, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

The trick to have a link to an image is to add a column in front of it : ":Image:..." instead of "Image:...". Rama 08:17, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Rama. , —MJCdetroit 14:31, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Economic Power

"It is a developed country with the seventh-largest economy in the world." This is incorrect. Even the source referenced "Rank by nominal GDP" cites France as having the sixth larges GDP. I am changing it. If you have a problem leave me a message. --Mgill 11:23, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] République française or République Française

My french grammar is a little rusty, but shouldn't the F in française be capitalized as is the case shown within the article in the "symbol of the French government" image? It is after all a proper name. —MJCdetroit 15:40, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

The recommendation from the Lexique des règles typographiques en usage à l'Imprimerie nationale is not to capitalize adjectives within a compound proper noun (ex: École polytechnique and not École Polytechnique). However, if I remember well, there are common usages as exceptions to this; in addition, not everybody follows the lexique. David.Monniaux 15:52, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, the Lexique (2002 edition), page 154, writes République française. David.Monniaux 19:10, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. I thought that there might be a reason. That's why I asked first. —MJCdetroit 20:17, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Hey, you were quite right: many people don't follow the Lexique on this, especially since initial capitals give names an air of majesty... David.Monniaux 23:56, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Following the French Wikipedia article on France, it would be République française and not Française. Mar de Sin ^{Talk to me!} 02:33, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Protected tag

The tag should be taken off since this article has not been edited for three days now.UberCryxic 16:55, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question

Can you tell me where did you read this? "In the 4th century AD, Gaul's eastern frontier along the Rhine was overrun by Germanic tribes, principally the Franks" My sources say 6th (VI) century AD. That's 2 centuries later. Mixremix 20:20, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Foreign Language

Despite popular stereotypes, many French people can speak at least one foreign language, especially in border regions such as the Pyrénées, Alsace, or the Alps. German, Spanish, Italian and English are spoken with various degrees of proficiency and many families living near the borders are perfectly bilingual. This is utter BS.. People in border areas can be bilingual, but it is used to prove that many French people can speak at least one foreign language (speak how fluently first of all??), which is clearly a falsehood.. Most French people cannot even string two foreign words together like aw R YOU? or Com 'Sitai?. I was an English assistant before, I know :)) This is not a stereotype, it is a fact - and to claim otherwise is propaganda. Can the person who wrote it, rephrase it so that it makes it clear that it is only the border French that are bilingual and that a majority of bilingual French have immigrant origins?? Baristarim 13:19, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Calm down, please. I'm not entirely sure what you are getting at, but the paragraph seems pretty good to me. Many French can speak at least one language other than French, especially teachers, those who work in the tourist industry and those with significant contact with foreigners, which would include those living in border regions. In addition, French of immigrant extraction would also be likely to speak another language. Maybe most French don't speak two languages, but many certainly do. Certainly most French folk I met during my last visit spoke enough English to get by. I was quite ashamed of my rusty old schoolboy French! --Jumbo 13:37, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

No that's not the issue, please also see above about the fluency by which they speak. Enough English to get by is not enough to label many French people can speak at least one foreign language - I live in France, have a look at my user page. :) I was also an English assistant (in France). Teachers/tourist industry, can only make the sentence some French people - they would only make up 5 percent of the population. Many of the TV presentors in France cannot converse directly with foreign journalists in news programs and they need translators, did you know?? The sentence must be rephrased so that it doesn't give the impression that France is a Scandinavian country where even the doorman speaks better English than an average American high school student :)) It was the first time I was reading this article, and it certainly gave me the impression that I was living in a different country.. Baristarim 13:53, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

If you have figures and can make the para more precise, then please rewrite it to give a more correct impression. We can't use ourselves as sources. --Jumbo 14:01, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

despite foreign stereotypes is POV, what is a foreign stereotype? It looks like the article is out to get those ol' fashioned French stereotypes.. The reason why French people don't like to speak a foreign language, or don't bother to learn another one is because it is such a big and great language - if your native language is a language spoken only by 3 million people, you are more likely to learn another language. The same argument is true for the US. But it still doesn't change the fact that the current phrasing seems way too POV.. Many is also a POV word if it is taken out of context - Yes, four million is many, but 4 million out of 60 is few.. BTW, French of immigrant origin don't speak a foreign language, they speak two native languages, maybe this is too technical, but usage of foreign language refers to languages that were learned after childhood, not to languages that were spoken by parents.. A different language would be more appropriate.. In any case, I will dig up some sources.. :)) Baristarim 14:08, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

In an article dealing with France, a reasonable person would take "foreign" to mean "non-French". The phrase "popular stereotype" implies "popular within France", whereas the exact opposite seems to be implied. We really shouldn't leave our meaning open to whatever the reader infers. --Jumbo 14:16, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Coming from English native speakers, who are for most of them English monolinguals, the eternal spread of stereotype of the French who can't speak any other language is close to French-bashing attitude. I'm sorry, but when I was young I has, as everyone of our citizens to learn AT LEAST TWO foreign languages, not even just one. As most of people here I choose Three languages : English, Spanish and Italian. German is often shoosena s second foreign language by a lot of people. The difference we have in this point with the other countries is that we usually don't think that speaking a foreign language means especially speaking English. We don't consider English to be "THE" language, and often we prefer to use French, German or Spanish with international peoples, and not always english. I think this is what upset a lot of English-monoliguals who misinterprets that as "not speaking foreign languages", even if the preson who is labbelled that way can speak fluently two or three other languages than french, if he doesn't use only English, he is labbelled as the "arrogant french who does'nt speak English".

Thanks. I hope I didn't come across as Anglo-centric or anything. My French is very ordinary, but much better than my Italian and German, so if I needed to go to another language once my French ran out, English was really my only other choice! For this article, I think it is important that we look at things from a French person's view in everything but the language we use to write the article. Wikipedia is an international project and writing it as if all the readers are American (or British or whatever) is going to raise the hackles of people in many subtle (and non-subtle) ways.

From the point of view of the French, I am sure that the "foreign stereotype" mentioned above rings very true. --Jumbo 01:57, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

IMHO, Baristarim is a bit pedantic in his interpretation of what speaking a foreign language means, on the other hand the article could be rephrased. The article does not state that most French people are fluent in at least one foreign language which evidently is far from the reality, but it is true that most young people leave secondary education with basic command in at least one foreign language. There is also an attitude issue with most French people who consider that visitor coming to France should make an effort to speak French and not the other way round and therefore gives the impression that they do not speak a foreign language. Blastwizard 10:37, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

More helpful than this rather weasely "people can speak at least one foreign language", we could mention that foreign languages are mandatory in school, and fo how long they are.

last time I was in Paris, I saw a CRS (Compagnies Républicaines de Sécurité) talking in English to a tourist who was asking for directions, I was like "wow". But this does not make a statistic. :) Rama 11:51, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

A couple of thoughts here. Firstly, I think it is somewhat misleading to describe people in border regions as speaking "one foreign language." Someone in Roussillon speaking Catalan, or in Alsace speaking German, or in the north speaking Flemish/Dutch, is not speaking a foreign language. These people are genuinely bilingual, and have been learning two languages as essentially "native languages" from childhood (there are probably some old people who do not speak French well or at all, but such people are also not bilingual, in that they don't speak French). On the other hand, I'm not sure what basis there is for arguing with the claim that "many" French people speak a foreign language. I've been living in Paris for the past four months, and here, at least, it's certainly true that "many" people speak English - I'd say that in Paris, a good quarter or so of people, if not more, have at least some command of English. I've no idea about other languages, but one would assume that there's various people also who speak some language other than English. Paris probably has more English-speakers than other parts of France, but even so, what evidence does Baristarim have for his claim that saying that "many" people speak a foreign language is wrong? So far he only has anecdotal claims, which my anecdotal claims, or Rama's, are, I think, sufficient to refute. Beyond that, some statistics would be nice. john k 12:05, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I am not under the impression that people in Alsace are typically French-German bilingual. This used to be often true, under German occupation, but not any more. Rama 11:46, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I was under the impression that most Alsatians spoke Alsatian dialect, if not proper Hochdeutsch. john k 03:39, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Not anymore, especially in cities. Elderly people might often speak it to some extend, but younger people will probably not know more than a few words. But you do find instances of people with awful accents. Rama 14:56, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

ALL French people speak French as there is an official language (this is not Spain). You can't really consider them as foreign languages but as dialects spoken by native tribes. However the country was assembled a bit like the USA (buying and conquering lands decades after decades) with many differents tribes living there in the Gaulish (Pre-France) era. These languages are mostly spoken by old people i think, but all of them speak French. Most of the french are bilingual in the metropolitan territory as well as in the oversea territories (former DOM-TOM now "Outremer"), i can count these dialects in metropolitan territory: Alsatian (must be kind of French-German coming from the French & German common Frank roots), Briton, Catalan (langue d'Oc), Occitan (Langue d'Oc), Basque, Normand ("chti"?). There is a "Langue d'Oil" batch but i don't know much about these dialects. i'm not sure if Corse is a dialect or just an accent (i think its much the latter). And that's all i think. People are not English bilingual though! those who understand english learned it as school as part of the 2 foreign languages education (other common learned foreign languages are German and Spanish). Dead languages are learned too by some (Greek & Latin). There are Creole language in the overseas territories (west indies) and the Cayenne (Central America) French is very odd form! Sounds like primitive French with a very basic syntax, structure is simple and short with missing words. seems like based on concept words rather than a proper syntax, gives something like: "voiture traverser route accident 2 morts" ("car to cross road crash two deads"). there is a such channel on the cable tv and it is subtitled in French!! this is a very strange form. also there must be other dialect in french overseas territory. from north to south, west to east people speak French with a specific accent. An accent can be spoken just in big cities, e.g. there's the Paris accent (sounds awful and snobish, Paris medias use many english words in french sentences to make sounds cool but its sounds stupid, Paris and suburbs considers themselves as the true French, all others are the "provincial" -plu. provinciaux- this is called "Parisianisme"), Marseille accent (sounds funny), Toulouse (sounds ridiculous), Narbonne (same) etc. There's a "Nord" (north) region accent too, sounds cool (Northern French are cool! -I'm from the South-) You also have different mentalities from north to west to south to east. from the inside, i can tell this is actually a very disparate (in the French/Latin meaning) people (as many US don't know) gathered together by one language and money (once the "Franc"), there is no religious link (once it was catholic religion) since 1905 as the state is agnostic (officially "laic") and ruled by king Jacques Chirac or another. Ask any university teacher about it! France still remains a monarchy with no king but a president with king power and privileges who don't ask much about his citizens (subjects). the country is filled with stubborn individualistic rational souls, it's pretty easy to consider anarchy and communism (in the meaning of equality for all) and probably socialism: "all people are good at birth but society rotten them and makes them evil" (this stupid thing was said by Rousseau) are born in France. Leftist people still believe this, still today French have this stupid utopist thought in mind but in the same time they are individualistic and liberals in their everyday practice (modern analysts have pointed this). medias want so much to be independent that they are actually antigovernmental! really! just check some online news channels like "I-Télé" (pro-left who claims to be neutral), "BFM TV" (news) or "LCP" (cool political/social channel). TV medias are largely responsible for public disorder, un-unified spirit and non-patriotic mind (unlike the US & the UK who strongly support their country and army). french tv news are only about bad and sad news, dead dogs news, and national sports results, its like nothing good ever happen in the world. tv medias and teachers (from school to university) are leftists. the people is probably 60% left/far-left and 40% right/far-right... you can't change nothing in a divided country as we're in the mess for decades. i've heard on tv news there's a new desease suffered only by Japanese tourists visiting Paris they get so sad and disapointed by what they experience that they are turning psychos or are coming back to Japan, yes, a brand new mental disease from people desillusioned from what they expect to be a perfect and romantic city as in fictitious works and past centuries. Well, this is big joke, an old rusty castle, i'm still happy to be in though (as most of the French actually are i guess since we have one of the lowest emigration rate), compared to other countries i'll not mention to be polite... hehe. Shame On You 07:45, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

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Ben dis donc UTC, tu racontes un sacré paquet de conneries ! :-) Bon ton passage sur les langues me parait plutot vrai, je ne peux pas le vérifier moi même de toutes manières. Cependant le reste sur les médias et sur la population étant à gauche à 60 % me fais doucement sourire. Si la France était à gauche nous n'aurions pas depuis 5 ans un gouvernement de droite. Sans compter que sur ces 50 dernières années la france a été de droite pendant au moins 35 ans... Bon je te laisse y réflechir un peu :-)

en parlant de conneries tu ferais mieux d'ouvrir un dico avant de l'ouvrir, "UTC" c'est le temps universel atomique qui remplace depuis pas mal de temps le GMT, mon pseudo c'est "Shame On You" et il s'applique au poil. Le pays de droite? tu rigoles j'espère? si le pays était de droite je peux te garantir qu'il n'y aurait pas eu d'émeutes en 2005, le gouvernement aurait envoyé la légion et s'était réglé le jour même comme en 1961 à alger (renseigne-toi donc avant de donner des leçons). la situation a pourrie a cause de ces connards de gauchos et de bobos qui ont laissé faire (Mamère en tete) par motivation électorialiste et par utopie. tu es au courant que le premier parti du pays jusqu'en 81 c'était le PC et que le PS s'appellait a l'orgine la gauche "non-communiste"? tu es courant qu'il y a eu des legislatives apres les presidentielles de 2002? qui a gagné la droite? tu es au courant qu'en 2002 y a eu pas mal d'absention au premier tour d'où la droite vs la l'extreme droite au second tour. tu regardes les chaines de tv? tu analyses le discours des journalistes durant les JT? sûrement pas, sinon tu aurais remarqué depuis longtemps qu'ils soutiennent le PS. d'ailleurs des émissions comme Karl Zéro ou les guignols de l'infos sont à fond à droite non? non? bin pas vraiment en fait puisque Gaccio (PS) et zero (anarcho) c'est des putains de gauchos qui bourrent le mou des jeunnots avec leur propagande. as tu remarqué que des que le gouvernement chirac propose une loi y les Mamère, les Jack lang qui ramènent leur fraise et que la CGT fout la merde dans la rue, tu sais qu'ils sont pas de droite eux non plus hein? (avec les etudiants comme armée de réserve - tu sais qui allait dans la rue en mai 68? les bobos, les fils a papa pendant que les vrais prolo aller bosser, mon père avait 22 ballets et faisait double-journée pendant que Cohen bendit -le bobo pédophile- et ses potes cocos et anarchos balancaient des pavés et fumaient des tarpés! tu as vu qui etait en tete de cortége pour le CPE? "generation-precaire": un groupuscule composé de bobos et de putains de cocos fils a papa, plusieurs reportages sont passés sur LCP!) mais bon je vais pas refaire ton éducation se serait trop long, tu comprendras un jour par toi même, probablement avant qu'il soit trop tard. c'est avec des crétins comme toi qu'on va se retrouver avec la royal et son orchestre en 2007. le pays est a la ramasse à cause d'utopistes, d'irresponsables et de laxistes comme toi. 1920: le PCF est créé, 1939: le PC milite pour la paix, 1954: ho chi minh membre co fondateur du PCF fout la merde en indochine. 1962: le FLN mené par des cocos et soutenu par le PCF fout la merde en métropole et en algérie. bref. les US ont interdit le PC en 1954 je comprend pourquoi, malheureusement c'est toujours pas au programme en france: interdir les deux extremes, et ne laisser que les parti républicains. mais on peut toujours rever avec des bras cassés pareil. Shame On You 17:55, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

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lol pas vraiment je suis de droite aussi, mais je ne crois plus en cette droite autoritaire à laquelle tu fais référence dans la première partie de ton message. Sinon UTC c'était bien un autre moyen de me foutre de ta gueule, sans doute n'avais tu pas compris la subtilité pourtant tu me sembles à meme de faire toi meme des raisonnements logiques sur la question.:-) Sinon en ce qui concerne les infos, je ne suis pas tout à fait d'accord. Deja tu a l'air d'oublier la province qui constitue à mon avis le plus large coeur électorale alors qu'ici tu parles comme un parisien qui à toutes les chaines depuis des années. Il faut quand meme souligner que le plupart des gens regarde TF1 et je pense que je vais pas t'apprendre que TF1 est de droite... ou alors on est vraiment pas sur la meme longueur d'ondes toi et moi. Les extremes sinon sont la plus pour appaiser une population et la faire tomber dans un populisme qui ne tient pas la route... On comprend quels avantages ils peuvent en tirer. Voila une des nombreuses raisons pour laquelle ils sont toujours présent en France, je ne dis pas que c'est bien, mais c'est un fait.Les partis politiques républicains se jouent de ses extremes et cela à notre insu, je ne peux pas le nier. Merci de parfaire mon éducation, mais ca n'est pas parce que ton analyse te dicte, au travers des médias que tu cotoies que tu lies ou que tu voies , que les français sont de gauches que par une divine volonté cela devient un fait. Rien ne le prouve, et si tu pensais un peu plus au gens plutot qu'aux médias tu nuancerais a mon avis un peu plus ton propos.

"Sinon UTC c'était bien un autre moyen de me foutre de ta gueule" voyez vous ça... "c'est celui qui dit qui y est" aussi non? sale gosse. t'es un cave cherche pas à tourner autour du pot, tu t'es grillé tout seul. la france est de gauche, comment tu peux le nier? segolene a deja gagné les elections de 2007 les journalistes lui leche le cul, elle est partout, ces cons de fgauchos veulent une femme. les ps sont là et ils sont mobilisé, ils iront voté en masse pour corriger leur traumatisme de 2002. la chance pour l'ump s'etait qu'il y ai trop de candidats comme en 2002, ca aurait dimibuer le pourcentage ps. Tobira les a bien niqué en 2002, sans elle t'avais le trostkiste au second tour. du coup elle fait votre commun en 2007, ca lui a été imposé bien sur. ce con de Bovet vient de se desister entre autres, bref ca elague pas mal a gauche. a l'ump y a la MAM qui vient monnayer son ministère zokazou pour 2007, mais bon sarko peut pas se la voir a cause de clearstream et elle a pas un support enorme a l ump en cas de candidature. de Villepin va mettre ca merde aussi. MAM et villepin vont tout faire jusqu'au dernier moment contre sarko. il etait notre seul espoir. mais j'ai l'impression que c'est grillé. ses propositions de lois bien qu'excellentes sont contrées par les gauchos, les cocos et meme par la droite chiraquienne. resultat 2007 c'est l'alternance et sarko a sa chance pour le prochain tour mais sera sans doute trop tard. entre temps j'aurai sans doute quitter le pays. Shame On You 22:51, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

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As for the new disease, in fact there are 2 forms and it is not a new thing. The first form happens when people are deceived and the second one happens when they enjoyed too much. This disease doesn't happen just in France. In fact it happens everywhere in the world, especially Paris and Jerusalem. Scientists still don't understand why but it seems these people are just crazy but they were crazy before their holidays. Unfortunaly I don't know the name for this disease.

its called the "tourist disease" i've heard it on i-télé's news (a pro-left channel btw, part of leftist C+ group)

As for the immigration rates, I have to say we have one of the highest in the world. The highest in Europe, far higher than UK. It is easy to check it, go and see the figures to the OECD factbooks.

I said EMIGRATION stupid cunt, the french leaving france not the foreigners coming to france. please don't post next time you'll save my time. Shame On You 17:55, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

My mistake, it happens...

it happens for the second time you mean, prior "UTC" and now about this. forget about it you are a looser. Shame On You 22:51, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

As for the french president, he has little to do with a king but I'm sure you were awared about that.

pff what's your age 14? you're still a young grass hopper who have no idea how things work. come back in a few years. the king term, monarchy and privileges were used by my science politics teacher (who pointed out the similiarities with chirac's era and the pre revolution era, i've heard the same view by politics analysts since then) at the university and the castle metaphor was used by Frank Capra in 1943 he was goddam right and it still applies. Shame On You 17:55, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Very funny ! need I remind you the first article of the "code civil". Is it your interpretation of your so called king of France. Let me laugh! It seems you really don't know how the things work my dear french friend. The 80's are finished. Never heard about something called "cohabitation" ? is it something a king can deal with ? not sure, not sure... But I leave you with your myths. 1943 ? I think you are off topic...

i'm not your friend, don't call me like this, never! i have nothing to do with stuff like you (to remain polite). what? i don't know how things work and you will explain it to me? lol. you fool. i am not a green one like you. i saw things you haven't. and you don't even know what "UTC" is and you can't even make the difference between "immigration" and "emigration", and now i get why there are all these "----" everywhere... it is YOU! you who use them instead of the ~~~~ because you don't even know how signing your posts here... LMAO :D SHAME ON YOU!

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about languages, the accents are just differents and some are weird, it is true but they are not ridiculous, I guess UTC is a bit condescending. To be honest with you the Frenchies don't speak other languages fluently. English is used a lot in the biggest french cities and in some parts of France such as normandy and french riviera (thanks to tourism). this situation has improved for the last two decades. Our youth go to UK to learn the language but we still are very bad if you compare these people to the total french people. Spanish is easier for the french people. the french people speak (IMO) a better spanish than english. I assume I don't speak a very good english I just hope you have understood my points. See you. (caseras)

french people speaking english in big cities? i'm currently in one of the biggest cities in the country and people speak in french (with the occasional arab dialects spoken in the streets) no one speak english outhere but the english. The French learning Spanish in mass? do you think the people in paris, brest, lille, or strasbourg care about spanish? young fool! they learn german! spanish is studied in south west by provinces bordering spain just in case of trade with spain. (by the way "Normand" is part of the Langues d'Oil i was talking about earlier). sure we have understood your point: you're green and naive and need to learn much at university and to meet adult people from outside your village. well don't make me waste my f****ing time next time. Shame On You 17:55, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Tu racontes n'importe quoi ! mais vraiment c'est hallucinant! les francais apprenent l'allemand ? mais d'ou tu sors un truc pareil toi ? tout prouves le contraire. Renseigne toi auprès de l'éducation nationale pour savoir combien de gens dans notre pays apprennent l'allemand plutôt que l'espagnol.

les français parlent espagnol? c'est toi qui es à l'ouest complet. pour quoi faire l'espagnol a part pour aller vendre des clopes détaxées à andorre... :D ne me fait pas rire! d'ailleurs les jeunes se mettent au chinois maintenant. et on les comprend. Shame On You 22:51, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

You are completly daft my friend, the french don't learn the german language anymore but they often very often choose spanish as the third language after english of course. And when I say it is easier to learn spanish than english I'm sure you can go against that, it is an obvious fact. If they don't choose german anymore the reason is simple, the german speak a very very good english the most of the time. So tell me why the french would learn this hard language whereas the germans speak english ? you are very far from the reality in fact. In another word you're wrong. BTW Do you work ? When I said in the biggest cities the french speak english, it is of course, not in their lifes, they speak french ! but it doesn't change you will always find some people, in hotels, restaurants or any kind of places whose welcome people, an english speaker. No ? are you fool or what ? How do we make buisness ? in french ? lol you really make me laugh, you tell me to growth let me tell you that the world have a little bit moved since 1960. :-)

in your dream! spanish is useless. who cares about spanish when you have the german market as the 1st euro power. pff! and for the 2nd time don't call me your friend, you have not such people outhere. most of the french people are lame at english even after having class during high school and stuff. in restaurant people don't speak in english they speak french, same in hotels, you have never been in such places or you are just stupid. and i think you are both. why do you know about the 60s you don't even get a damn thing about the 00s. Shame On You 22:51, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

My village is Rouen half a million :-) and about 100 kilometers (maybe less) from paris, so it is time for you to go out from your village, turn off the TV and hang around in a city and find a work and maybe, one day, I say maybe, you will be aware about the things I explain here. Well maybe I won't spend my time with you anymore. Let me tell you that you username fits you very well :-) caseras

you're such a trouducul, my "village" is x4 the size of your own town kid! :D get a life pauvre cave you are a looser for life. wikipedia doesn't need trollers like you. Shame On You 22:51, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to have to ask both of you to calm down and continue your arguments somewhere else. I'm also warning you for personal attacks. This page is for discussing changes to the article (preferably in english), not for anyhting else. yandman 14:50, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

alright dude, but this grass hopper can't handle english this is why he started to speak in french. he don't get a damn thing but claims he can teach me how things works, see he started to call me "UTC" as he thought it was my name... what can i do with people like him? nothing i guess, there's nothing to do anymore. Shame On You 22:51, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Europe map

I find the map image somewhat misrepresentative, perhaps an equal-area map projection would be better? Naphra 14:31, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Size

France fits into Canada 18 times, not 13 times. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Aronlevin (talk • contribs) .

If considering Metropolitan France then it is 18 times, if it is Metropolitan France and the overseas territories and dependencies it is then 14.79 times. I just worked that out from the comparison of land areas indicated in the infoboxes. Now, why doing this comparison and is it of any interest, why not comparing the size of France with the size of Russia, China or Monaco ? Blastwizard 09:59, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

So 13 is wrong either way. It should be changed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Aronlevin (talk • contribs) .

You missed the point of my comment, why do you compare the size of France with that of Canada ? I don't think it is useful at all, if people want to compare size of countries they can work it out themselves. Or if you want, I can make a beautiful triangular matrix of the ratio of all the countries against all other. I doubt anyone is interested.Blastwizard 00:52, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I understand what you're saying, and it's a good point. But you seem to be missing my point, also. The currently posted size comparison to Canada is wrong, and it should be removed or changed. Why leave up obviously inaccurate information? Later, folks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Aronlevin (talk • contribs) .

[edit] to little info

I`m a middle school kid doing a report 4 my school & I LOVE this site<but I couldin`t find enouf info on france so plz inprove this section. (:

Is there any specific information you want? If so, just ask here. I'm sure many people will come and help you.UberCryxic 16:41, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re Map

The same user who alleges it is "not a standard" in other countries, is the same one who has made it not a standard, by changing all EU countries maps. See contribs. Someone should see to it... •NikoSilver• 14:24, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

The map inserted in this page on 28 October, without due discussion here or elsewhere, does not meet the same standard as for all other Wikipedia country pages. Please comment, if you have the time, at the discussion at [Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countries#Location_Maps_for_European_countries--_discussion_continues]. Thanks. JamesAVD 15:55, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Non-standard and potentially POV map should be reverted

The map for this country has recently been changed to a format which is not standard for Wikipedia. Each and every other country identifies that country alone on a contintental or global map; none of them highlight other members of relevant regional blocs or other states which which that country has political or constitutional links. The EU is no different in this respect unless and until it becomes a formal state and replaces all other states which are presently members; the progress and constitutional status of the EU can be properly debated and identified on the page for that organisation; to include other members of the EU on the infobox map for this country is both non-standard and potentially POV.

Please support me in maitaining France's proper map (in Wikipedia standard) until we here have debated and agreed this issue? Who is for changing the map and who against? The onus is on those who would seek to digress from Wiki standard to show why a non-standard and potentially POV map should be used. France deserves no less! JamesAVD 15:28, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

This user has decided to remove references to the EU from the page of every member state. See his talk page for more details. yandman 15:29, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Please do not discuss here, but at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countries so a uniform decision can be reached. Kusma (討論) 15:38, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

The users above are seriously misrepresnting my actions. Certain non-standard items have been included in the infoboxes of the pages of some European states. I have removed the undiscussed and unsupported changes and started a discussion here on the best way forward. I have in no way 'removed references to the EU'! The EU is an important part of the activities of the governmenance of many European states, to the benefit of all. That does not mean that an encyclopedia should go around presenting potentially POV information of the constitutional status of the EU in the infoboxes of states which are supposed to be standardised across Wikipedia. I'm interested in what users here feel? Please feel free to comment at any of the various pages Yandman might suggest. JamesAVD 15:52, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

PLEASE DISCUSS THIS AT Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countries#Location_Maps_for_European_countries--_discussion_continues as it involves more than just this country.

Thanks, —MJCdetroit 20:24, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I will restore the standard wikipedia format map. There is no need to highlight the other EU member states. The EU is *not* a country. Depicting it otherwise could amount to POV. I would appreciate if the people who are currently pushing for the alternative map do make the effort to discuss their views on the talk page mentioned above. Regards, Asterion^talk 17:40, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestion

I think that this page should have a seperate article on kinship and family realationships that are shown underneath the "content" section. It would help the reaader to understand. Also, there are some mistakes in "history" talking about the monarchy etc.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.72.117.249 (talk • contribs) .

[edit] Update needed

Once again some of the info in this article, like so many others, are quite out of date. Many times I have seen updated information on articles with links from this one that havn't been updated here. If you are going to write/change an article, please make sure the info in the article it links from is also updated. It's often not too much trouble when it informs you when the information was gathered, but more and more often it doesn't.

[edit] Ethnic Groups Percentages

I thought it would be helpful to include the percentages of the ethnic groups of France because it never flat-out tells the reader what they are and this information is very useful. Without it, you have do do a lot of math to figure out the percentages. (It just tells the number of people.) I have done the math and here are the percentages:

"French" - 92.07% Immigrant Population - Total 7.93% : Algerian - 1.55% Moroccan - 1.32% Potuguese - 1.28% Italian - 0.77% Spanish - 0.62% Turkish - 0.44% Tunisian - 0.44% German - 0.26% Briton - 0.22% Belgian - 0.22% Polish - 0.22% Vietnamese - 0.16% Senegalese - 0.15% Chinese - 0.15% Malian - 0.13%

Ellasevia 00:40, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Questionable statistics

I have tried to update the section on immigration several times with accurate and reliable statistics based on the findings INED, the French institute of Demographics. I am very concerned about the unreliable numbers given such as the very imaginative 56% of the so called French of foreign origins. There is no evidence to back up that claim that seems pretty unreasonable. The official estimates of the INED put the number of French citizens of at least partly foreign descent at around 6 million, which is 9.6% of France's total population. I also posted the link to the article. I have edited that section several time but someone keeps reverting my articles back to its original form with the same innacurate numbers. Whoever wrote that France has 56% of its population being of foreign origins must either provide evidence of that claim or allows other people like myself to post accurate numbers. Immigration is a sensitive issues for the French and for the Europeans so please it is very serious to keep people well informed and not intoxicate them with untruthful stats like some on the French far right have been doing for the past few years. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Davdaott (talk • contribs) 02:35, 5 December 2006 (UTC).

The fact that only 10 percent of France are foreigners is wrong. It depends on how we define foreigner. Your definition above only includes recent immigrants in France. You are forgetting that there are 5 million Muslims in France[1] alone, almost exclusively North African Arab (8.33%). You are also forgetting that millions of Europeans moved to France. There is an estimated 4 million people in France with some Italian ancestry, more than 1 million Portuguese, and 1 million Spanish, hundreds of thousands of Poles, Germans, Turks, Armenians, Belgians, Russians, and Blacks. It is safe to say that at leat 1/3 of the France population are non-French. - Galati —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Galati (talk • contribs) 16:45, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

I respect your opinion but you have to provide reliable statistics to back it up. I only posted what the INED (the French national institute of Demographics) found in their research based on the 1999 Census conducted by INSEE.