Talk:Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
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[edit] Table and picture overlap
Could someone fix the table/picture overlap so the table can be read, tnx Stmoose 05:33, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Sources
There are no sources cited. As wikipedia says "Please cite your sources so others can check your work."
And, where there are statements such as "The Greek word interpreted here as "pale" is elsewhere in the New Testament translated as "green." " please could the word be given so that alernative translations can be considered? I rather wanted to know what the greek adjective for the "pale" horse was! 80.98.54.233 10:29, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Pestilence and Pratchett
Can someone please explain where pestilence came from, since it does not seem to be from the biblical passage?
Discworld's four horsemen deserve mention
- Then put them in, no? PMC 23:54, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
In Good Omens the old horsemen do not become a biker gang, rather a biker gang becomes the new horsemen.
No, no, you're wrong. The Four Horsepersons of the Apocalypse do in fact become a biker gang. Members of another biker gang join them as sort of junior horsemen.67.142.130.38 15:15, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] What was their purpose?
The article didn't explain what or who they were, so I added a short sentence giving some information. Someone elaborate, please, I'm not Christian and have no real knowledge about the horsemen (which is why I wanted the information in the first place). --Spug 13:07, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
* * *
What do WAR, TRADE and DEATH have in common? They are the three mysterious Horsemen of the Apocalypse. They represent some of the true forces shaping our world today. Second Seal
"And when He had opened the second seal..here went out another horse that was red, and power was given to him and to him that sat thereon it was given to take peace from the earth, and that they should slay one another: and there was given unto him a great sword." Rev 6.4 This second horse obviously represents war, as there has hardly been a day in the Worlds's history without people killing each other. Horse is red as the color of blood. Third Seal "And when he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying, Come. And I saw, and behold, a black horse; and he that sat thereon had a balance in his hand. Rev 6:6 And I heard as it were a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, A measure of wheat for a shilling, and three measures of barley for a shilling; and the oil and the wine hurt thou not." Rev 6.6 Here we see coming the horse of commerce , the horse of money and heartless capitalism,and with it famine. One symptom of famine is a skin condition called Xerosis, as the condition grows worse, the skin is often mottled, or has dark blotches with different shades of color. Fourth Seal And when he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, Come. Rev 6:8 And I saw, and behold, a pale horse: and he that sat upon him, his name was Death; and Hades followed with him. And there was given unto them authority over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with famine, and with death, and by the wild beasts of the earth. So the final horse is death in all its forms.
First Seal
And I saw, and behold, a white horse, and he that sat thereon had a bow; and there was given unto him a crown: and he came forth conquering, and to conquer. This first Horseman is obviously Jesus, with a crown, all in white, going forth conquering and to conquer. At the time of this revelation the early christians indeed went forward and conquered the Roman Empire. The message of love and redemption more powerful than any human force.
Conclusion In these few verses we have a remarkable description of the true forces shaping humanity today. First and foremost Jesus, the Son of God. Second, War, the total opposite of love. Third commercialism, capitalism, motivated by greed, for the benefit of the few and the exploitation of billions. And finally fourth, Death in all of its forms.
Andreas7000
The rider of the white horse is the false prophet (not Christ, as some have claimed). The rider of the red horse represents war; the black horse, famine; and the pale horse, pestilence.
Robert Merlin Evenson/Church of Ouzo bobevenson@yahoo.com
The discussion with a possible interpretation of the colours of the horses added by Dreamyshade on 23 Mar 2002 appears to have been copied from Metaweb: [1] Is this copying permitted? Just asking...
[edit] Dueling interpretations
We need to reach some consensus on what interpretations (and how many of them) we want to include in this article. I'm fairly well read in "traditional" Christian interpretation of Revelations, and I can say without exaggeration that everything I've read agrees with White=Antichrist, Red=War, Black=Famine, and Pale=Death.
The white rider isn't Christ. The horsemen are each released as a particular curse or judgment on the Earth. Even if you're not Christian, and/or disagree with literal interpretation of Revelations, and/or believe it to be divinely inspired, I think you'll have to agree that the author would not have described Christ as a curse.
The "popular" tradition is naming the riders War, Famine, Pestilence, and Death. I can't say how old this tradition is, but it certainly postdates scholarly interpretation of Revelations, which goes back to the 1st century AD. It would be a good research project to try and determine how and why this change took place. (One thought would be that pop culture retained knowledge of the number of horses, but most people weren't familiar with the notion of "Antichrist", and so Pestilence (or disease, or whatever) came in to replace it.)
Calling one of the horsemen "Taxation" is very much a modern (and fringe) interpretation. I don't think it is within the mandate of Wikipedia to document every interpretation which is floated.
I've reverted to my last edit, which includes material from both myself and Dreamyshade (see above). I don't want to be part of an edit war, though, so let's have a discussion here about this. I don't plan to continue reverting to my version.
Jeffr 15:50, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Meaning of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
Would the horsemen not be a referance to the angels cast from heaven at the end of the great war. Now twisted in form and released onto the world by Satan, who to my understanding was damned to hell, never to walk the earth, hence the fallen angels, now acting on behalf of Satan, they will walk the face of the Earth doing the deeds of their master. Which would be the destruction of all that is good to spite God, in an effort to redeem himself. As the angels that were cast out of heaven, along with Satan, believed that God loved the human race more than he loved them, now seeking not only redemption, but revenge. In closing, as we look at the world around us can we not deny that the horsemen are not already among us. 4.158.228.212 02:22, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Unrelated I know, but when God created Man he intended for angels to worship them . If god was all knowing how comes he didn't see some angels get pissed off with this? For a forgiving god he was pretty petty in expelling Satan and his gang from heaven. To my understanding, the Great War was triggered by God's ignorance and obliviousness to his angels. If anyone is to blame for this war its God. If anyone is to blame for Satan and the evil that walks the earth its god. Just goes to show - Evil is born from "Good". If you can call it Evil. I'd call it common sense and refusal to worship other flawed lesser beings. When Lucifer built his throne above all others he was making a protest - not a rebellion. The four horsemen aren't the creation of Satan - rather flaws God placed in his flawed creations.
[edit] Take 5
I'm thinking this isn't the place for it, but...what about the Fifth Horseman? As I understand it, there's a Gnostic gospel that has him, called Oblivion or Extinction; source I've never been able to find... Anybody? Trekphiler 08:56, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
I have found a passage from Revelation referring to what could be cosidered the fifth horseman "oblivion or extinction" - Jesus returning to wreak vengence upon the earth it seems.
Pagren 23:41, 04 October 2006
[edit] restructure
I think that this article might be easier to read if the different interpretations of the vision section were structured according to which Christian sect or church adhered to that interpretation. I think this could make more sense than lots of sentences that seem to start with "some believe" and "there are those that think"... anyone wanna help? --talkie_tim 08:48, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Apocolypse Unsealed
Would you take issue with me adding a bit about another interpretation that is based in another religion than Christianity? The Bahai faith considers itself to be to Christianity (among other religions) what Christianity is to Judeaism. A fulfillment. A book was once published called Apocolypse:Unsealed that explains this in a different context.
briefly
- The first horseman
He is Perveted Religion. The Word of God corrupted. Islamic Extremism?
- The second horseman
He is still war this one is pretty clear to everyone it seems.
- The third horseman
The black horse reveals the dark attributes of this force. Greed and Envy will motivate this horse's rider, and he holds in his hands the unbalanced scales of Economic Injustice. The victim of the transaction is permitted survival rations for his labors, but is denied the commodities of luxury. A day's wage for a quart of flour, a day's wage for three quarts of barley-meal! But do not damage the olive oil and the vine!
- The fourth horseman
He isn't pestilence, or physical death, but he is the spiritual death of unbelief. The same type of death Christ talks about in the gospels when he says thing like "Let the dead bury the dead"
If don't see any comment here in a 24 hours I will take it as nobody taking issue with it. and go ahead and write it.
Rahonavis 13:28, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Much content is irrelevant.
Such as the Online Games, Music, and telivision section, at the very least this excerpt is invalid "For a few years, Graal the Adventure (now known as Graal Classic) had a magic system. The evil half of the spectrum consisted of War, Famine, Pestilence, and Death." First off there was no evil half of a spectrum of their magic system, and those were never mentioned in that game, and second of all the GraalOnline article was deleted because it was non notable... Vipercat 19:48, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] All this has happened before and all this will happen again?
I noticed some similarities to the beginning of the 20th Century;
> 1st Horseman - Flase Peace/Conquers - The build up of the European Empires in the 1800's and the interlocking alliance treaties in the early 1900's
> 2nd Horseman - War - The First World War (perhaps the sword represents a superweapon or tactic that takes more lives than usual in previus wars? use of tanks/machine guns/trench warfare)
> 3rd Horseman - Famine/Unfair Trade - Great Depression, American expliotation of post-war Europe / exceptionally high tarrifs
> 4th Horseman - Sickness, Death - Spanish Flu Epidemic - killed more than the first world war and death of the great european empires
The cycle can then be seen to repeat;
> 1st Horseman - False Peace/Conquers - Rise of Hitler and expansion into Europe whilst others seek peace with him "peace in our time"
> 2nd Horseman - War - Second World War (perhaps the sword represents the atomic bomb?)
> 3rd Horseman - Famine/Unfair Trade - Rising Oil Prices etc / 3rd World Famine (present)
> 4th Horseman - Sickness, Death - Bird Flu? Some greater unseen epidemic? Smallpox?
"Fifth Horseman? As I understand it, there's a Gnostic gospel that has him, called Oblivion or Extinction"
- perhaps the cycle repeats itself until the "arrival of the fith horseman" when life has reached a point where there is so little life left it is impossible to repopulate the human race?.
i think the four Horsemen of the apocalypse might also refer to the four different "corners" of the world.The 1st(white) horse was holding a bow,(symbol of victory)and was bent on conquest,and kill by the sword(justice),so i think this could most likely be refering to the NW corner of th earth,(as seen on a map)which would be America.The 2nd(red)horse was given power to take away peace from this earth and set people killing each other.This I think is refering to the SW corner of the earth (mexico,coloubia,etc.) drug cartels are killing their own people everyday,and have the 2nd plague,which kills by famine. The 3rd (black) horsemen refers to the 3rd, or NE corner(russia,Asia,europe).this horsemen holds a pair of scales in his hand (which I think symbolize communism)and kills by plague(bird-flu and bubonic plague came from Eurasian "NE" continent). The fourth (gray-symbol of death) and final horseman would then be th SW corner(middle east;africa)of the earth. this horseman killed by wild beasts.these "wild beasts" can either mean literal wild beasts,in which poisonous snakes,cobras, and scorpions kill many.OR,these wild beast may symbolize killers,warfare,violence,weapons...
im not sure this is the meaning of the horsemen,but its a pretty good guess- BY TONY MICHEL(70.114.32.55 22:53, 13 November 2006 (UTC))
[edit] POV
This article is very biased. Just take a look at this little number under "Alernative interpretations" (particularly POV words are bolded):
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- An alternate, albeit incorrect, interpretation, likely based on the eschatological ignorance of the reade[r]s, incorrectly holds the first Horseman to represent War or the Antichrist, the second to represent Pestilence (sometimes called Plague), while the third and fourth riders remain Famine and Death, respectively.
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- Another incorrect interpretation, which is largely drawn from a flawed reading of the descriptions of the effects of each of the horsemen, is that the white represents foreign warfare or conquest (" went forth conquering, and to conquer"), the red represents civil war or domestic strife ("that they should kill one another"), the black represents famine ("A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine"), and the pale represents pestilence or disease in its various forms (" to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth").
¿Ummm?...alright, if people wanna believe this stuff, that's cool, but no one has the right to say what interpretation of the Horsemen or any other part of the Bible is correct or not, especially considering Revelation's overall ambiguity. I'm gonna make this section a bit more NPOV if no one minds. But if you do, please give a reason. --Wikiwøw 14:30, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
- BY all means go ahead and change it. It looks to me as though somone obviously loves Jesus too much which is why those who believe jesus may be one of the horsemen have been called stupid and ignorant. Thanks for pointing this out! - Pagren
- Woah, buddy, I never said Christians were stupid, virtually all my friends and everyone I know happen to be "followers of Jesus." But I just think it's a shame that some people have lost sight of Christianity's true purpose, which isn't about prophecies of killer horsemen and tribulation, but to teach peace and kindness and all that other good stuff they show on NickJunior or whatever they're feeding kids these days. To actually argue and claim you know the true meaning of such a trivial part of the Bible as this (and from Revelations nonetheless) is not only futile and pointless in my opinion, but corrupt, as it would elevate religion to the level of a science; when in fact, it's all a philosophy, and passages like these should be taken with a grain of salt. To each his own interpretation, that's what religion is really about. --Wikiwøw 21:05, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Wikiwøw- sorry about that I think you got the wrong end of the stick! :s *hangs head in embarrasment* my point was that wikipedia is here to offer all possible explanations or something along those lines - therefore if there is a wide belief that the fourth horseman is Jesus it should be mentioned. It doesn't necessarily mean its a flawed interpretation or is ignorant as the original article suggested. Wikipedia isn't a church and certainly suggesting Jesus is the 4th horseman isn't blasphemous in my opinion. My super-sarcastic comment was supposed to reflect this. Everyone has a right to their beliefs or opinions. Not just Christians or Musilms etc. Just because someone thinks something is wrong doesn't mean they should start putting everything as Misinformed and ignorant. As for Christianity's true purpose - I think people have lost sight of that since the beginning. Kinda like most religions in general really. They have all been used for the purpose of controlling a population and still are to this day to some extent. All except buddhism - Maybee because there aren't any particular deities involved that you have to blindly worship. As I said before though - everyone has a right to their views. Unless obviously their view is that suicide bombing places is acceptable, preaching death to a country's monarch, its people and its government in the street is acceptable and that Hugh Jackman is a good actor - those people should be shot. - Pagren
- Hehe, well, sarcasm doesn't convey itself too clearly on a talk page, maybe it was just my bad; and the Buddhism thing, I agree, it is really the only respectable, genuine religion left (er, not sure about Hugh Jackman :-P). But more to the point, as long as we keep all sides of the article in check and treat it just as unbiased as an article on South American tree frogs, it's in good shape. After all, part of the reason I watch over pages like this despite my beliefs is to make sure Wikipedia's religion articles aren't abused or filled with stupid shiite (get it, a pun?). --Wikiwøw 15:45, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Death's scythe
I want to point out that the fourth horseman, Death, is said to carry a scythe in this article. However, the Biblical account nowhere mentions such or any kind of a physical weapon held by this rider. He is sometimes depicted as carrying a scythe, but the scythe wasn't even a symbol of death back then. Also, perhaps the fact that Death was followed by hell/Hades could be mentioned in the chart, seeing as it seems to be an important feature of him.
Quite right. I did the original table and didn't notice I was parrotting popular culture rather than summarizing scripture. I'll revise. Jeffr 18:01, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Covenant From Hell
The white horseman is carrying a bow, in the Greek it is 'toxon'. The only other place it is used is in Genesis 9, where God uses it as a token of a covenant with Noah. Daniel 9:27 says the antichrist enforces a 'covenant', known as the 'covenant from hell'. BMurray 19:52, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
