User talk:FordPrefect42
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[edit] The Threepenny Opera
I can scan the score for you if I must. You may be right about the capitals, seeing as the titles are in all capitals on my score, but I can assure you that I have the original score. Once I have scanned it, I will let you know and you can decide for yourself what revisions are appropriate. Also, we should continue this on the pages talk page. -- Reilly 00:22, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Franz Möst
I have never heard Franz Welser-Möst called Franz Möst, on or off stage, and I live minutes away from Severance Hall. Banners, programmes and announcements all use the full name. Can you provide an example of Franz Möst being used? Spamguy 22:07, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
- See my answer on the discussion page. -- FordPrefect42 08:42, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Pictures at an Exhibition
Hi,
I would be happy to receive a scan of Mussorgsky's facsimile by email. If you already have it scanned, I want it ALL :) But if you yet need to scan it, I'll just be glad to receive what you want to send... (yutsis (at) g m a i l . c o m)
Btw, the Russian article about "Pictures" (that I wrote) is the "featured" article since today. --Yms 16:18, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Air on the G String
I understand that this title refers to a particular arrangement of BWV 1068, but I get the sense that today it has taken the meaning of any arangement of the piece. Could we note this in the article, or is this not true at all? AdamBiswanger1 02:12, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
- Be careful, you are starting to mess it up again! It is not an "arrangement of BWV 1068", the Air is only one movement (from 5) out of BWV 1068, the 3rd Orchestral Suite. Otherwise, do as you please. It should only be made clear that the title does not refer to Bach's original, because it is only a piece "on the G string" when it is adapted to it. --FordPrefect42 06:38, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Song-Symphony vs. Symphony-Cantata
Hello, sorry I took so long to reply to your questions: I've been a bit busy lately. Also, since the atmosphere on the song-symphony discussion page seems to have become rather hostile and unpleasant, I would like to make clear my wish to keep this a very civil and mature discussion. I hope any disagreements will not become arguments. I am sure that we can do this, as you appear to be a very reasonable person. Now to address your questions:
- The "symphony-cantata". I am familiar with the term symphony-cantata, and have read of it being applied most frequently to Mendelssohn's second symphony, the "Lobgesang". This symphony consists of three orchestral movements followed by several choral-orchestral movements (the choral ones are sometimes considered to be all one long movement). The name "symphony-cantata" derives from the very clear combination of symphony and cantata that is Mendelssohn's second symphony: the first three movements, separated from those that follow, would appear to be a three-movement symphony. The following choral movements, separated from the proceeding movements, would appear as a cantata. Therefore, when the two are combined, we have a "symphony-cantata". Please forgive the redundant nature of my explanations, I am simply trying to be thorough.
- The "song-symphony". As I understand it, the song-symphony is a combination of the song and symphony very much in the same way that a symphony-cantata is a combination of its two elements. I am not familiar with the work of Lev Knipper, and I have never heard of the term "song-symphony" being applied to any work other than Mahler's Das Lied von der Erde. I have confidence that you are correct in your reference to Knipper, as I can imagine what such a composition would be like in the hands of a Socialist realist. While Mahler's work has become immortal, however, Knipper's song-symphonies have not. My understanding of the term therefore rests solely on Mahler's example of it. The orchestrally accompanied song-cycle was relatively common in the Romantic Era, from Berlioz's Nuits d'été, through Wagner's Wesendonck Lieder to Mahler's Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen. Let us establish immediately that the songs in question here are specifically the Germanic Lieder. As Mahler's career continued, his two compositional specialties emerged as the symphony and the song-cycle. It was therefore only natural that he would combine the two. Although Mahler himself labeled Das Lied von der Erde as a symphony, several factors distinguish it strongly from his other "symphonies": 1.) Mahler did not give the apparent symphony a number. 2.) He did not use the word "symphony" in the actual title; in fact, he did inlude the word "Lied", or "song". 3.)The structure of Das Lied von der Erde is different from that of all his others: symphonies nos. 1, 5, 6, 7, 9 and 10 are purely orchestral. Symphonies nos. 2, 3 and 8 employ soloists as well as choral forces, allowing them to be easily described as "choral symphonies". Symphony no. 4, although it only uses one soloist and no other singers, the soloist only sings in the last movement (which, nonetheless, was previously a song on its own). 4.) Das Lied von der Erde by far most closely resembles a song-cycle out of all of the composer's "symphonies". In fact, were it not for the last movement, Der Abschied, it would appear as an orchestrally accompanied song-cycle for tenor and contralto. Since the last movement is on a much more ambitious and symphonic a scale, the work as a whole can be labelled s "song-symphony", or even more accurately a "song-cycle symphony" (although the latter term is unnecessarily confusing).
- Why is Das Lied von der Erde a song-symphony and not a symphony-cantata? To make this distinction more clear, I shall eliminate the word "symphony" from this section of the discussion, as both forms have in common their affiliation with the symphony. The difference lies in their connection with the terms "song" (in this case "song-cycle")and "cantata". A song-cycle is a "set of songs grouped into an artistic unity by the composer in a particular order and referring to a particular theme" (Oxford Concise Dictionary of Music, 1996 ed.), death in the case of most of Mahler's contributions to the genre. A cantata in the 19th century was "usually on a sacred subject and was, in effect, a short oratorio" (same source), and employed either soloists only, solists and chorus, or chorus only with orchestra. By the 19th century it was much more common to use a chorus than not to. Das Lied von der Erde is not on a sacred subject (other than the Chinese pagan ideas of its origin), and does not employ a chorus. Therefore, it is rather "un-cantata-like". It does, on the other hand, employ only soloists, as does the traditional song-cycle, is made up of poems which were chosen for ther psychological and philosophical content rather than their pagan content, and it consists solely of movements performed by one singer at a time with orchestra, singing, in effect, a song; there are no recititives, arias, choruses, etc., the kind of material one would find in a cantata. Therefore, Das Lied von der Erde is much closer to being a song-cycle than to being a cantata. Now we can reenter the symphonic aspects of both terms under consideration, and reframe the final statement: Das Lied von der Erde is a song-symphony, and not a symphony-cantata.
- The other examples given for a "song-symphony". The other works that I mentioned in the original article were the Roméo et Juliette symphony by Hector Berlioz and the Lobgesang symphony by Felix Mendelssohn. The examples are quite obviously not true song-symphonies, and I only included them originally in order to give works that are related somewhat in form. In fact, the only real similarity that the mentioned works by Mahler, Berlioz and Mendelssohn have with each other is the fact that they each employ singers and instruments in a symphonic manner. I have already established that the Lobgesang symphony is a symphony-cantata and I believe that the Roméo et Juliette symphony is a hybrid work of its own unique sort, which does not bear discussion at the moment. I have since been made aware of two different examples which may very well be excellent candidates for the label "song-symphony". These are the Lyric Symphony by Alexander Zemlinsky and the Symphony No. 14 by Dmitri Shostakovich, both probably directly influenced by Mahler's work. I have Pfistermeister to thank for the former and David Brooks for the latter.
I apologize for cluttering up your discussion page and giving you so much rambling information to read, but I wanted to make sure that I answered your questions adequately. I would very much enjoy having a well-mannered intellectual discussion on this subject with you, and I hope that we can further each other's understanding of it. Regards,
Europus 06:30, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Three reverts
You have now reverted three times. Wikipedia:3RR. Catholic from Berlin 13:57, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
- I know, and I will continue reverting your vandalism until you stop it. --FordPrefect42 14:03, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Reported
You have been reported for violating the 3 Revert Rule. Catholic from Berlin 14:48, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] 3RR and vandalism reporting
FordPrefect42, as you know a 3RR report was filed against you. I have chosen not to block you because the material you are reverting is negative in nature and unsourced. Under WP:BLP removing such material is exempt from the 3RR. However, I caution you that edit warring is not the way to resolve these problems and making spurious reports to AIV does nothing for your cause. Please be careful what you label as "vandalism". Sarah Ewart (Talk) 14:55, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Please use the talk pages to try to reach a consensus. If that is not successful, you may ask for an independent mediator and make use of other dispute resolution options. More information is available here: Wikipedia:Resolving disputes. Removing negative, unsourced material is the right thing to do and you have policy on your side in that regard, but please be careful of the other issues I mentioned earlier. Thanks, Sarah Ewart (Talk) 15:18, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
- Thank you, I will keep this in mind. --FordPrefect42 16:11, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
