Talk:Formal wear

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Contents 1 The Answers... as I see them anyway 2 Question by Peter 3 Formal Wear versus Evening Wear 4 Consolidation of Wikipedia formal wear terminology 5 Hierarchy of articles 6 Men's vs Women's Categories

[edit] The Answers... as I see them anyway

The basic problem is that “Evening Wear” is not synonymous with “Formal Wear” – “Evening Wear” may have differing levels of formality and is restricted to evening. “Formal Wear” is a term describing a range of wear/attire, i.e. Full-Dress down to a double-breasted tux for Formal Evening Wear and a Frock Coat down to a standard suit for Formal Daytime Wear.

Whereas Women's Formal Wear/Attire exists and is heavily dictated by fashion and popular influence, Men's Formal Wear/Attire is not subject to popular influences. Variations on a tuxedo, by the very definition of a tuxedo, make them a suit and therefore casual evening attire.

My expertise is in men's attire, and my outline below would need much elaboration and refinement in the women's areas, but I think it's a good start. I already have most information gathered and assembled. What is certain: terms should be standardized, a hierarchy/outline established, sexes need be differentiated within genres... and someone needs to write the articles with broad knowledge.

My suggestion on how to organize the hierarchy of pages (pages in bold)"

Attire:

• Men's Attire:
  • Men's Formal Attire:
    • Men's Formal Evening Attire: (strictly to be worn after 6:00 PM only - From most formal to least formal, respectively)
      • Full Dress a.k.a. "white-tie" (Tail Coat)
      • Dinner Jacket (Single-Breasted Tuxedo)
      • White Dinner Coat (Single- or Double-Breasted White Tuxedo Coat) Only for use in hot summer weather where a ‘Dinner Coat’ would have otherwise been used, use is optional unless stated otherwise. Double-Breasted is preferred because it eliminates the need for a waistcoat.
      • Double-Breasted Dinner Jacket (Double-Breasted Tuxedo)
    • Men's Formal Day Attire: a.k.a. "Morning Wear" (From most formal to least formal, respectively)
      • Frock Coat
      • Morning Coat/Suit (Cutaway Coat)
      • Sack Coat
      • Business or Sack Suits (standard suit of today)
        
  • Men's Business Attire:
    • The Office
    • The Corporate Meeting
    • "Business Casual"
  • Men's Casual Attire:
    • Men's Casual Evening Attire
    • Men's Casual Day Attire
• Women's Attire:
  • Women's Formal Attire:
    • Women's Formal Evening Attire (strictly to be worn after 6:00 PM only)
    • Woman's Formal Day Attire
  • Women's Business Attire
  • Women's Casual Attire:
    • Women's Casual Evening Attire:
      • The Coacktail Dress, etc.
    • Women's Casual Day Attire:

Operaguy 09:04, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question by Peter

Where can one find the best British shirts at a good deal. So far www.HawesAndCurtis.com deliver the best deals. Any other suggestions?

Peter

[edit] Formal Wear versus Evening Wear

The definition of formal wear is contradictory. First it states that formal wear is synonymous with evening wear then it goes on to list all the different types of formal wear, of which evening wear is just one example. I deleted the reference to formal wear being the same thing as evening wear. Peter Marshall 19:10, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Consolidation of Wikipedia formal wear terminology

A significant drawback of a “public” or “open” encyclopedia like Wikipedia is that there is no editor to ensure consistency among related articles. The articles regarding formal wear are a case in point with different authors using different terms to mean the same thing and vice versa. I propose that all formal wear terminology be consolidated in a single location and that related articles use this terminology consistently. The most logical place to establish this terminology would be the page describing dress codes (Social aspects of clothing) but it has (rightly) been tagged for a number of deficiencies and is therefore unacceptable. Therefore the next obvious choice seems to the Formal wear stub.

I have taken the liberty of beginning to standardize these terms. As part of this I have highlighted the intrinsic connection between civilian dress codes and the hierarchy of civilian formal wear. I have also changed a link that confuses dress codes with formal wear terms: I changed the “Evening dress” link to "White tie" because the linked article is only about white tie and not about the larger category of evening wear. (I have also requested that the Evening Dress page be renamed accordingly).

While I am very familiar with North American terminology, I am not as familiar with UK equivalents. If "morning dress" can be further divided into levels of formalities please add this information to this page! Similarly, it would be great to know how "evening dress" is subdivided today (I know one author divides it into "Dress coat" and "Dinner jacket" but I don't know if these terms are universal in the UK). If these articles are to be relevant they must make sense to readers in any English speaking country!

I have been studying men's formal wear as a personal hobby for about three years now. My sources include Esquire's Encyclopedia of 20th Century Fashions, Men’s Fashion: The Complete Sourcebook, Handbook of English Costume in the 19th Century, Handbook of English Costume 1900-1950, Emily Post’s Etiquette 1922, 1937, 1945, 1955, 1969, 1975 and 1997 editions, Amy Vanderbilt’s Complete Book of Etiquette 1995 edition, The Indispensable Guide to Classic Men’s Clothing, The Encyclopedia of Men’s Clothes (CD ROM) Peter Marshall 22:50, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hierarchy of articles

I think that Formal wear and Formal occassions should be two distinct articles, although I agree that a hierachy of articles should exist in which one article is considered not only linked to but a part of another article and in which terms stay consistent and detail is at the correct level, with only a summary at the higher level (so the reader knows what is being linked to).

[edit] Men's vs Women's Categories

I think men's and women's formalwear should be kept separate. Writers knowledgable and interested in one may be less so with the other. This will become especially important if the history of formalwear is discussed, as things diverge considerably depending on whether we are talking mens or womenswear. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sator (talk • contribs).

There are already sections on Women's styles and Men's styles. They aren't the best (especially the whole list format), if you want to expand on one and add in some more historical or cultural facts I think that would be great. If you think the page needs reorganizing, be bold and show us what you think would be better! Finally if you have some reliable sources that you could add, this article could really use them :-) --Siobhan Hansa 13:39, 5 October 2006 (UTC)