Talk:Fluorine

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[edit] Photo

I think the photo of the mineral in the main article is misleading. Fluorine is a gas, and is hard to display, but it's not quite clear enough for a novice that you aren't somehow saying this object is Fluorine (looks like Fluorite to me). If the article really does need a photo or illustration it could be a representation of the Fluorine atom, or perhaps a Fluorine mineral with a proper explanation of its chemical composition and relation to the element Fluorine.

One reason for the lack of a flourine pic is the fact you cannot store it in a clear glass container - flourine will eat a hole right through it. Joeylawn

86.139.168.138 09:15, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

 It is requested that a photograph or photographs be included in this article to improve its quality.

Article changed over to new Wikipedia:WikiProject Elements format by maveric149, DrBob and 152.1.193.xx. Elementbox converted 11:36, 23 Jun 2005 by Femto (previous revision was that of 02:21, 18 Jun 2005).

[edit] Information Sources

Some of the text in this entry was rewritten from Los Alamos National Laboratory - Fluorine. Additional text was taken directly from the Elements database 20001107 (via dict.org), Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) (via dict.org) and WordNet (r) 1.7 (via dict.org). Data for the table was obtained from the sources listed in Fluorine and Wikipedia:WikiProject Elements but was reformatted and converted into SI units.

[edit] Talk

The "dangerous toxin" part is not at all appropriate. In a very real sense everything in the human body can be toxic in excess. The "dangerous" part for fluoride is in dispute due to the low concentrations used in dental health care products and in municipal drinking supplies. Therefore it is not at all appropriate to state, as fact, that it is a dangerous toxin. This is missleading. --mav

What is wrong with stating:

"The fluorine ion fluoride is used in dental health care products and as a controversial additive to some drinking water supplies."

Is it not used in dental health care products? Is it not a controversial additive to some drinking water supplies? --mav

Clutch, there is no reason to delete intros to compound articles here. Introducing all things about an element is provided as part of the framework of this WikiProject. --mav

I don't see a problem with the current version's "The fluorine ion fluoride is used in dental health care products and, controversially, as an additive to some drinking water supplies." Seems a good summary. -- Tarquin 23:42 Dec 8, 2002 (UTC)

It is not ethical to leave the article in a state that would lead people who don't bother to click the fluoride link into believing that fluoride is harmless to their health. --Clutch 00:05 Dec 9, 2002 (UTC)

What? The article mentions that fluorides are used used for rat poison and that its use in water supplies is controversial. Whether or not this low concentration use is in fact harmful is a matter of great controversy. --mav

The use of fluoride as a ratpoison is neither controversial, nor is it suitable for the lead paragraph of an article on fluorine. Likewise, neither is any quack medical use of fluoride appropriate for the lead paragraph on fluorine. --Clutch 00:40 Dec 9, 2002 (UTC)

It is a very major use of this element. And fluoride compounds, not the ion itself, is added to water supplies in order to get fluoride ion to where authorities think it should go. The "quack" statement isn't appropriate here since fluoridation is perscribed by respected government agencies and the majority opinion on its use is still favors the idea that its medicinal effects outweigh deleterious ones. The word "quack" is reserved for fringe thinking. --mav

Two people have so far stated that there is nothing wrong with the wording. Clutch's only response is to call his critics "quacks" and "people without conscience". This is hardly persuasive and only tends to discredit anything Clutch says. --mav

Clutch's lack of understanding of chemistry is showing as sodium fluoride is obviously a compound. --rmhermen, a chemist and one who has worked on flouride analysis for public water systems
Note, nowhere did I refer to sodium fluoride. --Clutch 01:16 Dec 9, 2002 (UTC)

Clutch, stop making personal attacks on Mav, and lying about him being a vandal. That's insane. Between your hateful remarks on Jews, your paraboid comments in regards to fluoride, and your egregiously paranoid and slanderous comments on all social workers, I am seriously beginning to wonder if you suffer from sort of organic problem. Seriously. You need to seriously think about whether your presence here is good for your mental health.

RK-the above reference to mental health was a personal attack.

fluorine != the fluoride ion, Clutch.

fluorine is not the same as the fluoride ion! fluorine is the element, whilst the fluoride ion is what is most commonly used in toothpaste, in the form of compounds such as sodium fluoride. - User:Mark Ryan
Well from what I remember of Chemistry (and it's been quite awhile) ions don't always act the same as their corresponding elements. I think that's what the person meant? mav? anyone? --KQ
Actually, no, I can answer that myself. Chlorine is highly carcinogenic. Sodium Chloride (salt) is not. So Clutch might want to consider the fluorine/fluroide thing in the same light. --KQ
The ionized form is much more reactive. --mav
Not to mention completely different chemically! Chlorine is completely different to sodium chloride. Just because a compound contains atoms of a particular element, doesn't mean is has similar chemical properties! Compare sodium metal (highly reactive) and sodium chloride (table salt). Don't forget that you can't regularly get an ion on its own. A fluoride ion doesn't come on its own - it must be sodium fluoride, calcium flouride etc. - cations and anions - User:Mark Ryan
Um, that they would be different chemically was my point.  :-) The chlorine/NaCl example was my counterexample to Clutch's belief. --KQ

Stopping the edit war by temporarily protecting the page. All further discussion should be directed to the mailing list. --mav

Removed sentence:
The fluorine ion fluoride is used in dental health care products and, controversially, as an additive to some drinking water supplies.

Since Clutch has a problem with this sentence I have removed it for now in order to stop the edit war. I'm unprotecting the page now. --mav

Fluoride is added to drinking water. So what? There is a known acceptable amount of fluoride which is healthy for protecting teeth against decay (god, I sound like a Colgate ad). Studies have shown that children brought up in cities where fluoride is added to tap water have better dental health than those children bought up on farms drinking rainwater. Sure, it's probably hamful to your health in large quantities, but that's the point. The concentrations in tap water are quite small. The addition of fluoride ions to tap water is neither controversial nor unpopular here in Australia. - User:Mark Ryan

The good citizenry of the city of Redding, California voted in the latest elections only a month ago to ban the additon of fluoride to the water of their city because it "hasn't been proven to work, and is a poison." In the 1950s, fluoride was controversial because it was said to be a Communist plot to poison good Americans. -- Zoe
Have you been to Redding? It's not exactly high IQ or science aware central. Sorry, I couldn't resist. --mav

This edit war has made me curious. I've just done some reading on fluoride. Okay, maybe it could be dangerous, but it's not used as a rat poison. [1] says it straight out:

Is fluoride used as a rat poison? No. Although fluoride in extremely high doses was used as a rat poison before the first World War, it did not work very well

But that's just one little voice in the crowd of hysterical anti-fluoride websites. Rather more convincing is the fact that an extensive discussion on the range of baits available ([2]) doesn't mention it. It's not surprising when you consider the toxicity - 52mg/kg for NaF, compared to 0.27 mg/kg for Brodifacoum (used in "Talon"). In other words, you'd need 200 times as much bait to kill a rat, compared to modern rodenticides. Toxicity data for NaF came from [3] -- Tim Starling

Please change the article accordingly. --mav

I have removed mention of the effectiveness as a rat poison. I have also changed "has been used" to "was used". Are we sure it was in the past, though, and it is not still being used? - Mark Ryan

Good job, Tim. - Mark Ryan

Note that it is used for cockroach poison, see for example [4]. -- Tim Starling

Clutch, were you by any chance abused as a child by a social worker named Fluorine?


Fluorides are compounds that combine this fluoride ion with some positively charged radical. That is not correct. E.g. Sulfurhexafluoride SF6 does not contain ions nor radicals. Somebody please change it. Malbi

Be bold! Get in there and make some good edits :) Dysprosia 13:02, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I was reluctant to think of a wording of my own. ;-) Malbi 20:47, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Removed text - the only gaseous Uranium salt - describing uranium hexaflouride, I think I can see what that's trying to say but it's not clear what it means, and the naive interpretation (that it's a gas at STP) is just plain wrong. The article on "hex" needs some similar work. Andrewa 00:49, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] fluoridated water/fluoridated everything

Look, the fluoridation of water supplies, dental prods., etc., may seem fine to some, but I'd love to see the data one poster mentioned, showing that children drinking fluoridated water, had stronger teeth. And, even IF that were the case, has anyone ever asked themselves -- "What about the remaining bones in our bodies? Wouldn't fluoride effect them, as well?" But, that's an issue for another time. For now, I only submit the following:

I'm going back forty years, when our water supply was about to be tainted with fluoride. For those of you who weren't around then, concerned mothers actually protested against it! Yes, many of them read the labels on those old containers of rat poison, perhaps, still in the pantry! So, knock Mommy for not having properly disposed of that stuff, long before, but don't suggest that any unbiased studies have shown either: a) a plus for teeth; or, b) a safe solution!

If facts are to be used, then use them! But, don't buy into what the ADA tells you, for instance. They are paid into existence by dentists; dentists like to work on cavities. Follow the money!

Yes, let's follow that money, shall we? When the "story" of fluoride as a useful dental hygiene tool came about, it was also during a time when BIG Aluminum manufacture/processing (who may have even had HUGE government contracts at the time!) needed a place to dump a waste product, which was known to be highly toxic! Now, environmental issues were beginning to take center stage, at this time, and BIG Aluminum didn't want the added cost of disposing of that toxin, a major part of which was --you guessed it-- fluoride!

So, the great call went out, "Help us find a place for this poison?" Lo and behold! The dentistry community had some interesting data, from a study they'd done -- one which looked at entire regions where dental decay was non-existent among the population.

One might ask why dentists would even care, but common sense would suggest that these same areas rarely needed a dentist! So, as in any ad campaign strategy, a good salesperson might look for those venues where his product isn't sold, and try to fix that.

But, back to the study...in which a small Texas town was noted to have no cavities, for many generations! And, medical investigators, having been sent to find the reason, concluded that the drinking water of this town, being from a natural mineral spring, was the key.

That most likely being of some relevance, the study failed to go any further, as it should have done. For, as the list of minerals in that water did, indeed, include fluorides, (or, fluorines? -- correct me, you chemists!) there were other trace minerals, as well. Then too, the town consisted of a much inter-related bunch of folks, so the genetic makeup may well have played a part in the dental anomaly being studied.

Aside from the common sense, and the unfinished study, this skewed data presented an interesting solution (pun intended) to the BIG Aluminum problem -- sell the toxin to local water suppliers, to save the children's teeth! Then too, dentists could use the fluoride in office...and toothpaste manufacturers could add it to their product, as well! Not only does that save BIG Aluminum the growing cost of "disposal," but, now even pays the industry to take the toxin off their hands! (Do you pay to have your trash removed? What if the disposal co. paid YOU for it?) And, the local water suppliers can raise the fee to the customer, as well, because of the added cost for the fluoride!

Thus, in every newly fluoridated community, people began to pay for their own poisoning. And, BIG Aluminum has since found many alternative ways to use (dump) that toxin, as well. Teflon, for instance...and the various polymers which are being used more and more, for underground cabling, for instance, and various materials which require strong, wear-resistent sheathing. So, BIG Aluminum was thinking...just in case someone finds the real health issues surrounding fluoridation, and reverses the water boom they've enjoyed, for decades!

Is Aluminum the real culprit here? Not at all! The actual culprits are the medical community, and the government agencies, whose main job is to protect the health and welfare of the public, yet turned a blind-eye...perhaps, even sold out, in order to aid a huge industry, with which it had contractual agreements!

Before any of you again site articles, or note studies, I ask you to also research the deaths from accidental over-dumps of fluoride, which occurred at the water supplier! I ask you to look at the label on your fluoridated toothpaste, and tell me why the warning is there? Again, death has occurred, when young children have so enjoyed the flavoring, that they've ingested too much fluoridated toothpaste than their small bodies could handle! Once more, I ask that you research how fluoride was used to numb the prisoners, being held in Nazi concentration camps, by Adolph Hitler.

I'm not surprised that these issues are harder to research, and less likely to be at the top of any listing. After all, news of a death here and there hardly weighs against the huge pockets of a myriad of now global industries, the public trust given the medical community, at large, and the not-so-candid governments, whose agencies horribly failed their constituency!

Apologies for time constraints, but will list a few articles to get you started...IF you're really interested in the unbiased truth!

http://www.oldworldaviaries.com/text/styles/teflon.html

http://www.nofluoride.com/

http://www.mercola.com/2003/sep/10/water_fluoridation.htm

Above comment added on 2005 July 20 by 216.68.31.194

The above comment is nonsense. According to [5], the US imported 590,000 tonnes of fluorspar in 2005, most of it went to making HF and Aluminum Fluoride. IF fluorine is a waste product, then why does the U.S. import it? pstudier 02:41, 2005 August 14 (UTC)

[edit] Color

I am confused about the way the color of the element is stated. The first paragraph says Fluorine is a yellow-green gas, then goes on to say pure Fluorine is pale yellow. Chlorine is yellow-green...

Fluorine is VERY hard to display, because it will eat glass. The picture on this article might have some florine in it, but chances are there are more Silicon Floride molecules attached to the glass. Flourine is actually a brownish color... See this picture

I think there is something wrong with the picture, maybe the lighting or the way the picture was taken. Fluorine is pale yellow.

Depends on how much of it the light passes through. It's like yellow food coloring: it looks orange-red in the bottle, but when diluted or smeared on a surface, it looks yellow. I will change the color above the picture to yellowish brown, becuase yellow-green is wrong.--24.16.148.75 00:18, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rhodium

An interesting sidelight, Rhodium does not react with Fluorine, but will with Chlorine and Oxygen, etc. Very odd as Fluorine forms compounds with most of the other elements.

[edit] Argon

A mention of Argon FluoroHydride might be an interesting addition to the article as it is the only known compound of Argon made, even though only stable at cryogenic temperatures only.

[edit] why?

i wan to know who discovered it and when?

[edit] F-F use

55% for UF6 40% for SF6

Büchner Schliebs Winter Büchel Industrial Organic Chemistry VCH Weinheim 1989.Stone 16:53, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I want to know where does floride come from?

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