Talk:Flight 19
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what did they do when the first people dissapeared.
I thought the five planes were discovered earlier this year (2005) ?
Actually I think the five planes were found in 1991, not 1981; see Newsweek for 27.05 1991.
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[edit] Verification and sourcing
There are some references to support certain facts reported here, but it is not clear to readers which sources support which facts. Also, there appear to be some facts which are not sourced at all, especially about later findings. For instance, this claim seems particularly extraordinary:
- In 1981 the wreckage of five Avengers was discovered off the coast of Florida , but it was found later from serial numbers on engine blocks that they were not Flight 19. The five tightly grouped Avengers had crashed on five different days in the exact same spot.
It may very well be true, but if so it would be appropriate to cite the most reliable source possible, and explain in more detail. -- Beland 10:25, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm sure it's true, as I was just watching a Discovery Channel special about the Bermuda Triangle, which talked about Flight 19, and a submarine designed who had found the wreckage of five plains he believed to be Flight 19. Though, as it was said, that was disproved, and was not actually Flight 19.
- Also worth noting - the reference for the Mariner being a flying gas tank does not refer to an independant source (the source is arguing against any other explanation). Can anyone provide a site that substantiates this claim that is not related to Flight 19 ? I was unable to find one (that does not refer to the site quoted in this article) using Google. One would assume that if this is a common or widely known description for this type of aircraft that there would be a non-domain specific reference to it. shaneg70
[edit] "Myth"
The term "Bermuda Triangle myth" at the top of the page is not NPOV. A myth is a claim unbacked by scientific study. Gian Quasar has done historical study of the bizarre nature of the disappearances in recent decades in the Triangle-region, in his volume Into the Bermuda Triangle, copyright 2004. --Chr.K. 08:00, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
- Upon reading this material, I am struck by how naive it seems to be on the nature of the flight, and the strangeness of the activity of what transpired within it; regardless of the eventual likelihood of the planes crashing into the sea, the original causes for disorientation of the flight was quite assuredly not a "prosaic" one. --Chr.K. 08:05, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
- A myth is a myth if there is no compelling evidence to demonstrate it is not a myth. The myth is that the Bermuda Triangle has been the location of a disproportionally higher number of aircraft or ship disappearances/disasters than anywhere else. There is no evidence to support that myth when actual facts are applied. To use your words, "I am struck by how naive" someone can be to need to try to invent mysterious reasons why four aircraft got lost, ran out of fuel, and crashed. It happens. Moriori 08:36, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
- Incorrect on every front; not only are there more incidents in the "Bermuda Triangle" region than elsewhere, the Coast Guard is notoriously tight-lipped on the subject of how to deal with the matters. "Overdue" is a reason given on planes that have vanished off the radar screen in single passes of the scope. Planes have been founded ditched, but with the doors locked and the keyes still in the ignition. I don't recall anyone ever jumping from a plane and locking the door tightly behind them. In any case, do you wish me to give the litany of the events here, or on the Bermuda Triangle page, one after another? My concern is that the page will become somewhat difficult to load after the 150th section. --Chr.K. 08:58, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
- I here offer a "compromise" of sorts; "legendarium" is a word now present that means 'developed mythos'. Whether or not anyone agrees to the validity of such mythos, the flight WAS a foundational point for its development. That at least, is verifiably NPOV and objective. --Chr.K. 10:02, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
- Legendarium is a bit twee, but I'll go for legend if it makes you happy. This article is about Flight 19, NOT the Bermuda triangle. We obviously mention it, because that's where the aircraft ditched, but in the intro we should certainly NOT link to a book and says in its second sentence that the author was "the first person to really investigate this phenomenal disappearance with an eye to putting in order what really happened." That's bollocks. The navy board of enquiry thoroughly investigated the incident, and determined what actually happened - they got lost, ran out of gas, and ditched. I've noted your remarks about the Coast Guard, and other comments. Please provide irrefutable evidence. Moriori 20:52, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
- Technically there is no such thing as irrefutable evidence. I can refute the claim that everyone in the world has to die someday, and claim that it need be only a matter of time before science finds a way to make humans immortal. There is no way to refute either claim, in such case; likewise, no other claim is beyond refutation. Providing substantial evidence, on the other hand? That I will do. Be warned, however: putting the direct litany of events as they transpired into the page may make it seem to contradict itself, claiming that it is both easy to explain and an intractable mystery of why, for instance, all their compasses pointed west while sending them far north, to a position tracked by Fort Lauderdale as roughly 200 miles due east of Jacksonville. --Chr.K. 07:57, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
- Legendarium is a bit twee, but I'll go for legend if it makes you happy. This article is about Flight 19, NOT the Bermuda triangle. We obviously mention it, because that's where the aircraft ditched, but in the intro we should certainly NOT link to a book and says in its second sentence that the author was "the first person to really investigate this phenomenal disappearance with an eye to putting in order what really happened." That's bollocks. The navy board of enquiry thoroughly investigated the incident, and determined what actually happened - they got lost, ran out of gas, and ditched. I've noted your remarks about the Coast Guard, and other comments. Please provide irrefutable evidence. Moriori 20:52, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
- A myth is a myth if there is no compelling evidence to demonstrate it is not a myth. The myth is that the Bermuda Triangle has been the location of a disproportionally higher number of aircraft or ship disappearances/disasters than anywhere else. There is no evidence to support that myth when actual facts are applied. To use your words, "I am struck by how naive" someone can be to need to try to invent mysterious reasons why four aircraft got lost, ran out of fuel, and crashed. It happens. Moriori 08:36, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
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- I feel I need to chip in, here. You are correct, there is no such thing as irrefutable evidence - that is one of the foundations of science, but where is the burden of proof, here? If you make a claim which contradicts all accepted theories of reality, such as your claim of "no death", then the burden is on you to provide evidence to support your claim; it is not up to me to prove you wrong. I could claim that there are blue Giraffes in Africa which turn invisible when humans approach, and you could not prove than wrong. That does not make my claim reality, though.
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- Likewise, there is not reason to believe any claim of paranormal activity in the triangle. From all accounts I have read, only one compass went awry, not all of them. It was the instructor who got lost - the students seemed to have a fair idea of where they were, but he did not listen to them. If he did, they would have survided.
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- Please, do some research, if only to try to prove me wrong, but consider all the reported facts on equal grounds, then ask yourself, which version is the simplest, makes most sense, and fits our current understanding of reality. Qarnos 11:13, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
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- After due consideration of all the facts surrounding the location, it is quite evident to me that attempts to explain what happened to both Flight 19 and a large number of other disappearances in the area (including but not limited to the rather documented disappearances, all without any reasonable trace, of a C-54 in 1947, the on-page loss of the Star Tiger in 1948, two DC-3s, the NC16002 and N407D in 1949, Star Tiger's sister plane Star Ariel under almost exactly the same circumstances in 1949 [the second incident causing the model, perfectly working in nearly all other cases, to be removed from open service], an R7V-1 termedFlight 441 in 1954, a Martin Marlin in 1956, the Stategic Air Command B-52 Pogo 22 in 1961, the KB-50 tanker Tyler 41 in 1962, two KC-135 Stratotankers in 1962 and 1965 respectively, two C-133 Cargomasters, the largest aircraft in the Air Force at that time, in 1962 and 1963, and a C-119 Flying Boxcar in 1965. Be aware, these are all cases of military aircraft vanishing without trace, and pared down to roughly 10% of what's available for note, for readability sake...the civilian 'overdue' list is much, much longer, and the list of derelict vessels, some of which having the key still in the ignition, and both doors locked) by mundane means are in such denial of given facts as to make explanations like Mr. Kusche's, and others', all but ludicrous. In the end, I suggest you research the events in depth, and come up with explanations for air traffic controllers (as I've mentioned elsewhere) losing all radio and radar contact with aircraft more than 30,000 ft. up in a single pass of a radar scope (one of the most documented of cases occuring 1979). --Chr.K. 01:52, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
- On further review, something else of note; would your blue giraffes in Africa that turn invisible be backed up by the claims of more than 1,000 people over the period of a quarter of a century? If so, then I would actually be willing to give credence to your claim, for the sake of scientific study alone. --Chr.K. 01:59, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
- After due consideration of all the facts surrounding the location, it is quite evident to me that attempts to explain what happened to both Flight 19 and a large number of other disappearances in the area (including but not limited to the rather documented disappearances, all without any reasonable trace, of a C-54 in 1947, the on-page loss of the Star Tiger in 1948, two DC-3s, the NC16002 and N407D in 1949, Star Tiger's sister plane Star Ariel under almost exactly the same circumstances in 1949 [the second incident causing the model, perfectly working in nearly all other cases, to be removed from open service], an R7V-1 termedFlight 441 in 1954, a Martin Marlin in 1956, the Stategic Air Command B-52 Pogo 22 in 1961, the KB-50 tanker Tyler 41 in 1962, two KC-135 Stratotankers in 1962 and 1965 respectively, two C-133 Cargomasters, the largest aircraft in the Air Force at that time, in 1962 and 1963, and a C-119 Flying Boxcar in 1965. Be aware, these are all cases of military aircraft vanishing without trace, and pared down to roughly 10% of what's available for note, for readability sake...the civilian 'overdue' list is much, much longer, and the list of derelict vessels, some of which having the key still in the ignition, and both doors locked) by mundane means are in such denial of given facts as to make explanations like Mr. Kusche's, and others', all but ludicrous. In the end, I suggest you research the events in depth, and come up with explanations for air traffic controllers (as I've mentioned elsewhere) losing all radio and radar contact with aircraft more than 30,000 ft. up in a single pass of a radar scope (one of the most documented of cases occuring 1979). --Chr.K. 01:52, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
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- I don't really want to be dragged into this discussion, but I have to ask — what exactly is it that "is quite evident" to you, Chr.K.? After writing 185 words in your opening sentence to the first of your two postings immediately above, you apparently forgot to include the verb clause that identifies what happened to the "attempts to explain what happened to Flight 19, or a large number of other disappearances in the area". Could you complete that thought? Thanks. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 06:36, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
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- Apologies; have attempted to fix it for you. Basically, to say it in vastly simpler words, mundane explanations for the verifiably inexplicable, as well as claims that certain explanations should be marginalized by default, are a disservice to science as a whole. --75.2.22.184 05:52, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Footnotes and Navy report link
I've created a "Footnotes" section to accomodate a bit of sourced information that clarifies the grouping of the non-Flight 19 Avengers found off Ft. Lauderdale — within 1.5 miles of each other, not "the exact same spot" that was previously claimed. (Hyperbolic exaggeration is a common problem with popular tales of mysterious incidents.) This amply demonstrates why it's so critical to obtain reliable, verifiable sources for articles. It's a very good idea in articles about controversies to add references to specific statements, as had already been done for the Navy investigation mentioned in the intro paragraph.
I changed the Navy link into a footnote that provides the same link primarily because of two problems: limitations of some source information and limitations of wiki markup. Some sources, as the video program I cite for the Avenger grouping, do not lend themselves to direct links as the Navy data does. The markup problem occurs because of the way WP handles footnotes. The video-source link causes a numbering problem because footnotes share their link numbers with raw URLs. Therefore, if you're going to use footnotes, you need to convert unlabelled external links to footnotes as well. (An alternative is to add the full citation in the text, but that is cumbersome and interferes with the flow of the text.)
This might seem a bit more work to some, as a reader must now click on the footnote number for the Navy info to get the footnote, which then includes the URL for the cited article. I might not have done this if the article already had proper citations of specific information, but as it currently stands, it really needs more of these links, so a proper footnote section is justified. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 01:47, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
- Are you serious?. You deliberately eliminate a single link action to create two distinct actions. I am reverting to the logical link. If you believe there are other link problems, then fix them. I refuse to accept this dumbing down of Wiki. Moriori 05:15, 26 February 2006 (UTC).
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- Please calm yourself, Moriori. This isn't dumbing down anything. The link is still there. What this is is improving the references of Wikipedia articles. If you hadn't noticed, many WP articles are far below the cornerstone standard of verifiability through reliable sources. Just do a "Random article" walk some time to see how many articles are stubs, and how many of the remainder cite no sources whatsoever. Even the ones with so-called sources are usually links to obscure websites that don't come close to being reliable sources. As I write this, this article claims only three sources, one of which I added (reliable but not easy to access), one which is the Navy report (reliable), and an air-show site (far below usual reliabilty standards). There was no specific source cited for any of the "Bermuda Triangle" information until I added my semi-satisfactory one. We could still use some additional sources, like a citation of a Berlitz book that sets out his claims.
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- That said, I'm not wedded to the footnoting of the Navy link. I just want to make sure that any non-inline references are adequately documented without confusing the reader with missing numbers or broken links (which is the current state of the article after your last edit). And whether or not the Navy link is a bare one, it should be listed as a source of information. Based on my quick perusal of that URL, I'd say it's a rather critical one, supplying most of the facts cited in the article. It should be properly documented, and is now. All we need to do is agree on how to present the inline link. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 07:54, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
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- I think I've resolved this issue to both our satisfactions. Based on the most current recommendations at Wikipedia:Footnotes, I've replaced the note/ref templates with ref/reference XHTML tags, which now automatically generate proper references. Because it really isn't a footnote per se, I've moved the info on the Navy report to a new "References" section, which provides proper citation while leaving Moriori's bare URL link in place. Hopefully we can all be happy now. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 02:40, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] POV inferences removed
I deleted two parargaphs which lamely tried to justify the POV statement that “an anomaly involving abnormal forces was responsible for the disaster”. Some of my reasons are:
- There has been absolutely no evidence cited for the claim that the navy “were careful to omit” details from its findings
- It is preposterous to say the enquiry gave no consideration to the fact that Flight 19 was actually exercising over the Bahama Cays -- that was Flight 19’s actual mission
- There was absolutely no mystery about lack of radio tringulation for the enquiry board to address as claimed. What is mysterious about aircraft radio message breaking up, being interfered with by Cuban radio stations, and eventually disappearing because the aircraft flew out of strong radio signal range and ended up in the sea?
- Why did the flight leader need to ask for radar to be switched on? Because it was peace time, when radar wasn’t the 24/7 aid it is now. And even if it could have been used, they would have initially been looking for aircraft out west of Florida because that’s where the leader erroneously said they were.
Speculation? No more so than the two conspiracy theory/paranormal paragraphs I have deleted. They sucked. Moriori 03:04, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
- I cannot understand the point being made here by Moriori unless he has some personal axe to grind rather than serve the interests of Wikipedia. How would the "radio stations" of liberal (not Communist until the 1950s) Cuba interfere with radio transmissions in the Atlantic? Radar is not really relevant. The unresolved question is the radio triangulation, or lack of it. USN radio bearing apparatus in use at the time was able to obtain the bearing of a transmission in the Atlantic lasting only three seconds. Wherever these aircraft were, triangulation should have been possible, and an explanation of why this was not possible is the very matter which Moriori lamely invents, and the USN Board of Enquiry was "careful to omit". Geoffreybrooks
- Please post here your evidence that the USN Board of Enquiry carefully omitted to explain why triangulation was not achieved. Moriori 22:20, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Article needs to redirect to this article
"Flight Nineteen", which doesn't exist, needs to redirect. I did a search on "Flight Nineteen" instead of Flight 19 and did not get any results, I was going to give up--Gakhandal 15:43, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
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- Done. Incidentally, when you post an original comment to a talk page, your message goes at the bottom, not the top. Cheers. 20:40, 19 July 2006 (UTC)Moriori
- Thank you, Much appreciated. I know about new messages going on the bottom (its just logic), I tried but it seemed to delete and "# 4 POV inferences removed" when I previewed the page, and I couldn't find out what the reason was. I was sure I did not delete it when I created this comment.. I tried putting on top and it worked. Excuse me for that.--Gakhandal 22:29, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
- Done. Incidentally, when you post an original comment to a talk page, your message goes at the bottom, not the top. Cheers. 20:40, 19 July 2006 (UTC)Moriori
[edit] Neutral wording
Regarding "However, that is totally false," in Bermuda Triangle connection section.
A more neutral (and encyclopaedic) stance to the statement of falsity is desirable. Currently it looks more like a personal opinion than a fact. --Acolyte of Discord 17:54, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
