Talk:Flags of the Confederate States of America

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There is no support or references given here by whoever made these comments (probably a yankee) about the validity of the Confederate Flag, especially the one commonly accepted by the true Confederates and their descendants. Most of these Flags were never seen by or displayed by true Confederates, except the latter, and we certainly were not on ships. Its amazing how many ship flags were found in Southerners attics... -- 12.36.152.153 (moved from article page to here by John Owens (talk) 03:22, 2004 Jul 9 (UTC)

Also, that "bonnie blue" flag didn't symbolize The Confederacy as a whole, but the independent states before they united. The logic was that if 20 or so stars symbolized 20 or so states united, then one star symbolized one star staning alone.

I'm from Georgia and I've never heard of that last flag being used as a naval flag. I have no idea why someone would think that...

What was originally designed The Naval Jack was used at times on land such as by the army of Tennessee. There were in fact many local/regiment battle flags in addition to the general square saltire version. The popularity of the saltire flag being used almost exclusively by veteren groups started as far back as the 1880s in preference to what were seen as either "political" or local flags. Almost inevitably to be consistent with most other flags, there was a preference established for a rectangular version and it is no wonder that more flags of this type are now found in attics. However, to suggest the wide use of the flag civicly and among land based forces at the time of the civil war is somewhat anachronistic and it remains historically correct to refer to it as a naval jack. Dainamo 11:46, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 South Carolina flag 2 Bonnie Blue Flag 3 License plates 4 Sons of Confederate Veterans Tags 5 Why Was the Image of the 3rd National Flag Reverted? 6 Request Verification 7 Reflecting the battle flag's controversial perceptions 8 Use of Flags by K.K.K. Historically Not Limited to C.S.A. Flag 9 SCV protest of use of Confederate Flag by hate groups 10 POV 11 Origin

[edit] South Carolina flag

Just to explain, I cut South Carolina from the controversy section because the issue with SC wasn't that the state flag was changed during the 1960s but that the government started flying the Confederate banner alongside the U.S. national and SC state flags above the statehouse. The NAACP (and other) boycott persuaded the state to move the flag from above the statehouse; the Palmetto banner was not redesigned in 2000.

The removed text in question:

South Carolina incorporated the Confederate Battle Flag into the state flag in 1962. Due to a boycott by the NAACP and related organizations, the state legislature chose to redesign the flag in 2000.

Carter 16:42, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

That is strange! Everything I read seriously implied (or outright stated) that the SC flag had a Confederate emblem. This must be a fairly widespread misconception. Either that, or the media is just trying to create more controversy than the issue merits. Here is an article from 7 Nov 2004: Kentucky Lexington-Herald Leader A quote from the article: "The NCAA does not allow schools in states that have Confederate symbols on their flags -- only Mississippi and South Carolina -- to host events..." I was fooled! Odd indeed. --L.D. Bear 01:39, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think I can explain this. In recent years, some entities have created a flag that blends the CSA Naval Jack and the SC/NC flags. See here for a picture: [1] and [2]. These flags are unofficial and has no connection with the NC/SC Governments. For more, see FOTW. If you really want one, [3] has plenty of products with the flags on them. - Hoshie/Crat 05:38, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bonnie Blue Flag

I think the "Bonnie Blue Flag" should be transfered from this page to its own separate page. Strictly speaking, it is not a "Confederate Flag". Unlike the other flags on this page, it was never officially used to represent the CSA. A detailed discussion of this flag, and its use as the flag of the Republic of West Florida would be better located on a different page. --JW1805 03:10, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

• An expanded article on this flag is now at Bonnie Blue Flag.
• We have a minor rvt war going on about this, I see. We should discuss it here on the talk page. I don't see any reason why this page should contain so much duplicated information that is already at the Bonnie Blue Flag article. This page should stick to flags that were unique to the Confederacy. --JW1805 17:25, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
• Although not an official flag, it was widely used to represent the confederacy prior to the adoption of the official flags. It was a well known Southern symbol for rebellion and discontent in West Florida and later Texas. It is mentioned in the article, and was influential to civil war songs, literature, and post civil war fiction (Bonnie Blue Butler). It clearly belongs in the category of "Other Flags". 155.84.57.253 17:31, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
  • I don't think it ever really was used to represent "the Confederacy" as a whole. As you say, certainly not in any official way. It was mainly used before the Confederacy was even created, in the early months of 1861. Its usage as a Southern symbol in West Florida, and influence on Texas and California also has nothing to do with the Confederacy. Since its usage predates the Civil War, and it has its own article, I don't see any need to duplicate all that info on this page. The current mention with a link should be enough. --JW1805 20:28, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm no expert on this, but what I read at GA flag indicates that it was more of a state flag showing their intention to seceede. Bubba73 (talk) 18:42, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

That's interesting. We should add a link to that site to this page. --JW1805 20:28, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

• • Even in Canada, we know that the Bonnie Blue Flag was important to the secessionist movement and the early days of the Confederacy. A picture of it really should be included. WolframSiever 18:39, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
  • But the name of the article isn't "Flags used by sucessionists", or "Flags used in the South", it is "Flags of the Confederate States of America". And this just isn't one. --JW1805 18:48, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] License plates

"In North Carolina, vehicle owners can request a license plate from the state featuring the Sons of Confederate Veterans logo, which incorporates a Confederate Battle Flag." - Also in Virginia [4]-LtNOWIS 00:51, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sons of Confederate Veterans Tags

I know that they are available in Tennessee also, as I have one on my truck and so does my uncle.

[edit] Why Was the Image of the 3rd National Flag Reverted?

In October I replaced the image of the 3rd national flag with one that had the dimensions as laid out in the 1865 flag law. Sometime in the past week this image was reverted to the earlier image which has the wrong dimensions. Why was this done? Nicholas F 01:34, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Request Verification

I would like some information of affirm the following statement made in the article;

Others see it as a symbol of the institution of slavery not knowing that Abraham Lincoln, prior to secession, offered the Southern States a 13th Amendment [Congress shall make no laws affecting the instituition of (slavery)...thereby making it permanent]

I'm not sure on this and I think there should be some verification to this.

Likewise. It was recently re-added in this form:

• To many in the US South it is simply a symbol of their heritage and pride in their ancestors who held out during years of war under terrible odds and sacrifice. Others see it as a symbol of the institution of slavery not knowing that Abraham Lincoln, prior to secession, offered the Southern States a 13th Amendment [Congress shall make no laws affecting the instituition of (slavery)...thereby making it permanent], or of the Jim Crow laws established by the US Congress enforcing racial segregation in the Southern States for almost a century later.

We don't know what "many" think, nor do we know what they don't know. -Will Beback 01:31, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

• That may be talking about the Corwin amendment. But the whole "not knowning... making it permanent" section is completely unnecessary and irrelevant to the topic. --JW1805 (Talk) 00:38, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reflecting the battle flag's controversial perceptions

I've tried twice now to insert the following block of text under the "Displaying the Flag/Controversy" section. It has been twice removed.

I can't find the Clarion Ledger hit any longer, so have removed that reference. The Cooper/Knotts paper is located at http://paws.wcu.edu/ccooper/beyonddixie.pdf.

To continue to deny that a growing number of African-Americans find the flag offensive, or to deny that it was-- and continues to be-- used as a symbol of white segregation-- fairly or not-- is to deny current history, and not in keeping with the open and accurate philosophy of Wikipedia.

I ask that this text be reinserted in the "Displaying the Flag/Controversy" section.

"More recent studies, however, show changing attitudes toward the Confederate battle flag, particularly among blacks-- perhaps due to greater awareness of the issue stemming from legislative battles regarding the flag's official use in Georgia, Mississippi, and South Carolina. In 2005, two Western Carolina University researchers found that 74% of U.S. African-Americans favored removal of the flag from the South Carolina Capitol building [Cooper & Knotts, 2005]. As battle lines over the use of the flag have (again) hardened, the NAACP and many civil rights groups have attacked the flag. The NAACP maintains an official boycott of South Carolina, citing its continued use of the battle flag on its Statehouse grounds."

[edit] Use of Flags by K.K.K. Historically Not Limited to C.S.A. Flag

I noticed the comments of Scott regarding the Klan's use of the Stars and Stripes. Those interested should view the following:

http://www.genealogyimagesofhistory.com/images2/William%20Joseph%20Simmons.jpg Ku Klux Klan Rally, Stone Mountain, GA, circa 1921

http://www.biologydaily.com/biology/upload/thumb/3/3c/300px-Kkklan.jpg Ku Klux Klan Rally, 1922 (30,000 members from Chicago and northern Illinois present).

http://www.agpix.com/catalog/AGPix_curtteich/large/AGPix_curtteich_0014_Lg.jpg Ku Klux Klan, Mansfield, Ohio, early 1920s

http://www.ourbaytown.com/images1/klan.gif Ku Klux Klan Rally, Goose Creek, Texas, circa 1921-23

http://hip.cgu.edu/liss/epstein/KKK2.jpg Ku Klux Klan meeting (women’s auxiliary), New Castle, Indiana, 1923

http://judicial-inc.biz/Klu_Kl4.jpg (alt http://www.liu.edu/cwis/CWP/library/african/west/kkk.jpg ) Ku Klux Klan Rally, Tulsa, Oklahoma, 1923

http://www.historyonthenet.com/Slave_Trade/images/kkk.jpg Ku Klux Klan Rally (place unknown, circa pre-1920s)

http://www.law.du.edu/jenkins/images/kkk.gif Ku Klux Klan Rally, Boulder, Colorado, 1925

http://www.ethnociel.qc.ca/Images%20ethnociel/kkk.gif Ku Klux Klan Rally, Washington, DC, 1925.

http://static.flickr.com/13/18096460_7f0c71bd16.jpg Ku Klux Klan Rally, Montiplier, Vermont, 1927

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Image:Kkk1928.jpg Ku Klux Klan Rally, Washington, DC, 1928.

http://collections.ic.gc.ca/jhs/Images/KKKhouse.jpg (NOTE THE UNION JACK!) Ku Klux Klan meeting, Vancouver, B.C. Oct. 30th, 1935.

http://www.historyworksohio.org/images/thumbnails/AL02904.jpg Ku Klux Klan Rally, Ohio (circa pre-1945)

http://images.indianahistory.org/cgi-bin/thumbnail.exe?CISOROOT=/V0002&CISOPTR=3 Ku Klux Klan meeting, Godfrey Klan No. 93, Hartford City, Indiana (circa pre-1945)

http://www.atlantahighered.org/civilrights/gallery/02.jpg Ku Klux Klan Rally, Atlanta, GA (circa 1940-1946)

and see:

http://www.pointsouth.com/csanet/kkk.htm very large collection

http://www.rulen.com/kkk/ another large collection

and see also:

http://media.bestprices.com/content/isbn/69/1567666469.jpg

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0822307723.01._AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0195098366.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

http://metascholar.org/MOSC/images/essays/KuKluxKismetcoverl.gif

04:22; 2 September 2006; Fix Bayonets!

[edit] SCV protest of use of Confederate Flag by hate groups

As I recall, documentation* for the above had been provided (by another Wikipedian) as requested on at least two prior occasions. In any event, the SPLC verifies the above, and as we all know, the SPLC is certainly not a defender of the SCV -- to the contrary, the SPLC is perhaps the chief antagonist against the SCV. *SPLC article verifying the above See also *York Daily Record article verifying the above.
--Fix Bayonets! 12:17, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV

This article is rank with POV content and in need of a major overhaul IMhO. - Plasticbadge 06:24, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Origin

Is there any additional information regarding the creation of the saltire style Confederate Battle Flag? Possibilities for the inspiration behind the saltire design include the Flag of Scotland, the Irish Saint Patrick's Flag, and the Spanish Cross of Burgundy Flag. Thanks! --Dulcimerist 00:16, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

There's an in-depth description of its creation, intial rejection and ultimate success, and factors in the design and so on, in the book: Coski, John M. "The Confederate Battle Flag: America's Most Embattled Emblem". 2005. Unfortunately I had it checked out of the library and no longer have it at hand. Good source for this info though. William Porcher Miles was the main guy behind the design, if I recall correctly. I can't quite remember, but I think his initial design had the cross upright rather than diagonal. Pfly 01:00, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

It may have initially been designed to go upright rather than diagonal? Grab that book again, as that information would be awesome in this article! That would be something that most people wouldn't know... --Dulcimerist 05:07, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Well you inspired me to do just that! I checked the book out from the library today and edited some pages with info from it. It seems the nitty-gritty details about the flag's origin are a bit more complex than can be described briefly. I will try to return and improve the texts I entered on various pages. Was in a bit of a hurry and not writing as well as I could. Plus I am fairly ignorant of heraldry and flag-terminology. But, thanks for the inspiration. This Coski book on the Confederate flag seems quite well researched, with footnotes citing seemingly obscure primary sources like the archived letters of Civil War people stored in government archives. Perhaps the best researched book on the confederate flag. The bulk of the book is on the flag's changing meaning and use since the Civil War, with only the first chapter or two on the flag's creation and use back in the day. Interesting book. Pfly 08:17, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! I look forward to the cleaning up of the entry here and there, and might work on it a bit when I've got time. Heraldry is quite fun, although I'm only familiar with heraldic crosses of nearly 200 designs. (I'm a nerd who specializes.) --Dulcimerist 09:22, 26 October 2006 (UTC)