Talk:Flag of the United States

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An event mentioned in this article is a June 14 selected anniversary

Contents

[edit] supplemental material for article

Please consider adding information about the following:

The original Pledge began with a military salute that then stretched out toward the flag. In actual use, the (rexcurry.net/book1a1contents-pledge.html) second part of the gesture was performed with a straight arm and palm down by disinterested children perfunctorily performing the forced ritual chanting by extending the initial military salute, as shown by Professor Rex Curry. Due to the way that both gestures were used sequentially in the pledge, the (rexcurry.net/bellamy-edward-german-connections.html) military salute led to the hard, stylized salute of the National Socialist German Workers’ Party. The Nazi salute is an extended military salute via the USA’s Pledge. Adolf Hitler’s notorious salute originated from The USA’s early Pledge of Allegiance.

The Hitler-style salute in the USA pre-dated the Nazis by 30 years and was created by Francis Bellamy (author of the "Pledge of Allegiance"). Francis Bellamy and Edward Bellamy (author of the novel "Looking Backward") and Charles Bellamy (author of "A Moment of Madness") and Frederick Bellamy (who introduced Edward to socialistic "Fourierism") were socialists. Edward, Charles and Frederick were brothers, and Francis was their cousin. Francis and Edward were both self-proclaimed National Socialists and they supported the "Nationalism" movement in the USA, the "Nationalist" magazine, and the "Nationalist Educational Association." They wanted all of society to ape the military and they touted "military socialism" and the "industrial army." Edward’s book was an international bestseller, translated into every major language (including German) and he inspired the "Nationalist Party" (in the USA) and their dogma influenced socialists worldwide (including Germany) via “Nationalist Clubs."

The salute was not an ancient Roman salute. The ancient Roman salute is a myth that has been debunked.

[edit] Retiring the flag

Can we add a section on how to respectfully dispose of the flag when it has become worn? When I was a Girl Scout I learned the proper (respectful! not protest!) burning ceremony for flag retirement, but is this something that is specific to the United States flag code, or is it general flag etiquette? I will avoid adding this section, in case it is not appropriate for this article.64.231.115.217 00:23, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] George Washington's quote?

I added a quote that was credited to George Washington on the Symbolism of the flag. “We take the stars from Heaven, the red from our mother country, separating it by white stripes, thus showing that we have separated from her, and the white stripes shall go down to posterity representing Liberty.” This is like my third edit so I'm not really sure if it is good enough.--RNAi 01:43, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Crummy looking SVG flags

I don't have time now, but would someone separate out the layers in this file: Image:US Flag All Historical.svg, and upload them to the commons, with pd-self and pd-flag tags?

All of my pretty, high-resolution png flags (uploaded at a time before WP supported svg), have been replaced with ugly looking svg versions. That file linked above has all the layers necessary to save versions of all 20-something correct svg flags, with proper colors and proportions. It would be fine probably to just replace the flags that are currently on the commons, as they are ugly and wrong (for instance, compare Image:US 30 Star Flag.svg to Image:Us flag large 30 stars.png, a particularly depressing example) --jacobolus (t) 09:02, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Alright, well I fixed it. --jacobolus (t) 11:18, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] National Colors?

President, Dwight David Eisenhower, by Executive Order No.10834, signed on August 21, 1959 and printed in the Federal Register at 24 F.R. 6865, pursuant to law, stated that: "A military flag is a flag that resembles the regular flag of the United States, except that it has a yellow fringe border on three sides."

This is very interesting because almost every flag you see these days has that yellow fringe border on three sides. However after checking Executive Order No.10834 and the Federal Register at 24 F.R. 6865, it does not say that a military flag is one with the yellow fringes on three sides. In fact it doesn’t mention it at all. This seems interesting the author should sure this up. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lancer9910 (talk • contribs) .

I've removed the section from the article, since (as you mentioned) the executive order in question does not contain the quote listed, or in addition any reference to yellow, or fringe. As far as I know, the yellow fringe thing is a common theory among some conspiracy theorists, especially if they hold to some of the beliefs common among tax protestors or the Christian Patriot movement. If anyone has any verifiable sources for this quote, then by all means re-insert it. g026r 08:40, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
The Institute of Heraldry (as administered through the Pentagon) included this issue in a FAQ on their website. It quotes a 1925 Attorney General's Opinion on the matter which is taken to be the government's official stance on the subject of fringe in the absence of specific legislation on the 'outside' of the flag. Would this be worth adding?--Ray thejake 19:07, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
I read the full text. Surprised, such text is not both officially archived and easily available online at the same time for verification. Ihn consideration, that 1925 stance was before the 1959 E.O.10834 passage. Within the 10834, it does state that nothing should be attached to the flag along the statement of nothing being put upon it. The fringe itself appears as an attachment to the flag by such statement. An "enhancement" is made to a direct object, and in this case it is the flag the fringe tries to enhance. If it were a background border or color, it would be different. A flag on a shirt is not enhanced by the shirt itself even if the shirt is black, white, gray, orange, etc. I'm sure this can be further argued, but it appears there is symbolism to the fringe. 09:44, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] War flag?

So... a flag with a gold fringe is the official war/military flag? I find that hard to believe. Rmpfu89 23:54, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, so now you change it again and claim that the "Dont tread on me" flag is our official naval jack? 24.91.9.206 20:30, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Um, well, it is. See First Navy Jack. Lockesdonkey 16:59, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] United States article on featured candidate nominations list

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/United States

Cast your vote! The more responses, the more chances the article will improve and maybe pass the nomination.--Ryz05 t 22:54, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Washington DC will never be a state

Washington DC is a federal district which is opposite of a state. Similar to the federal district of Berlin, Germany. DC becoming a state is bogus in my opinion.

You're entitled to your opinion; however, there is at least one active movement advocating such a change in status. See D.C. Statehood, and DC Statehood Green Party. -ScottMainwaring 04:14, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
In fact, Berlin *is* a Land just like the fifteen other Länder and in no way different from them. Ahem. I see no reason why D.C. shouldn't be a state, too. —Nightstallion (?) 22:01, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Because it's a federal district and b it's a federal district. So if it's always going to be a federal district, you have no case. Citizens who don't like it can move to Maryland! Renegadeviking 04:14, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
In 1770, the Thirteen Colonies were a "permanent" part of the British Empire, too. Ancient Egypt was ruled by its pharaohs for millenia before the Roman Empire made it a "permanent" Roman province. And where is either Empire today? Might I suggest that history did not end with the textbooks we read when we were kids? ~ Jeff Q (talk) 09:32, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Amen. —Nightstallion (?) 11:08, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
It was argued why some representitives do not vote. There are no representitives of D.C. that can vote. Residents of D.C. can not vote because they need to live within a state to obtain full citizenship. People who move to D.C. have a limited time they can vote until their primary residency changes and if it changes, and it does change sometimes. I like to see more facts about this, but this isn't the article about voter rights and citizenship within D.C. 09:53, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
People who live in D.C. are citizens just like anyone else, and while they don't have Congressmen or Senators, they do vote in Presidential elections. D.C. gets 3 electoral votes, which would be the minimum if it actually were a state. They went for Kerry in 2004. And, of course, they have local government elections. Wahkeenah 10:00, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, it wouldn't be too much of a problem to just give them their congressman and senators then, would it? Just reduce the Federal District to include only the White House, and everything's solved. But since even the Democrat-controlled House of 1993 didn't manage to make DC a state... Well, we'll see. —Nightstallion (?) 12:23, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vertical stripes?

This is an interesting quote from a Nathaniel Hawthorne book:

"From the loftiest point of its roof, during precisely three and a half hours of each forenoon, floats or droops, in breeze or calm, the banner of the republic; but with the thirteen stripes turned vertically, instead of horizontally, and thus indicating that a civil, and not a military, post of Uncle Sam's government is here established."

Source: Introduction to The Scarlet Letter by Nathaniel Hawthorne, pg. 1

URL: http://www.pagebypagebooks.com/Nathaniel_Hawthorne/The_Scarlet_Letter/THE_CUSTOM_HOUSE_p1.html

This is the first I've heard of a flag with 13 stripes turned vertically to signify a civil government office, whereas horizontal stripes signify military. Actually, I've never heard of the 13 stripes turned vertically for any reason. Anyone else heard of this before? 24.18.35.120 06:18, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I think what Hawthorne was talking about, was simply suspending the flag so that it's hanging downward. This "turns the stripes" vertically. -- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.166.178.1 (talk • contribs) .
United States Civil Flag has information on this. As the article notes: it's considered by most vexillologists to be a hoax, and that it was likely refering to the flag of the United States Customs Service. -- g026r 17:14, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ratio of 1.9

I edited the paragraph that discusses the 1.9 ratio. As originally written it implied that the alternate-size list made the ratio an open variable -- which it doesn't. The list is specifically for government agencies and lays out eleven specific hoist-fly (width-length) dimensions. Only three of the eleven permitted sizes deviate significantly from the 1.9 ratio, and they are probably intended to cover unique needs (limited space or something like that).

Section 5, which governs display of the flag by individual civilians and civilian organizations, refers to Sections 1 and 2 for the definition of what a US flag is. The alternate-size list is in Section 21, not 1 or 2.

So apart from three specific flags of specific dimensions, which are authorized specifically for government agencies, a US flag is in fact defined by law as having a 1.9 ratio. By strict legal definition, the 3x5 footer (ratio 1.66) that most people buy at retail stores is not a US flag.

Note however that Section 3 (which deals with mutilation and other abuse of the US flag) uses much broader language, which essentially says that if a layman easily recognizes something as a flag, then it's covered by Section 3. Which DOES cover the 3x5 footer, along with many other representations -- going all the way down to the little paper job that you sometimes see attached to toothpicks.

[edit] Star Patterns

Wouldn’t it be possible to add Great Star Patterns (where the stars are arranged into a large star), circular patterns or diamond patterns into this article? In my opinion these patterns were more inspirational and beautiful than the present day nine offset horizontal rows. .--Lumber Jack 12:50, 4. Jul 2006 (CEST)

[edit] Folding the flag

It appears that the folding section was taken from usflag.org however, I don't think it's complete. I thought the final step involved tucking the last rectangular section into the triangle, as described on crwflags.com. Additionally, I was always under the impression that a "perfectly folded" flag only showed four whole stars more like the picture on usflag.org (but even here it appears crooked). The animation ends on a rather sloppy fold in my opinion. Am I nit-picking? Hoof Hearted 16:16, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Flag upside down as a distress signal.

This article says that it is not true that an American flag can be used as a distress signal when flown upside down. This is not correct. According to AFPAM36-2241V1 "Do not display flag with union down, except as a distress signal" This can be found here: [US Airforce Electronic Publication Site] This manual is the study guide enlisted members use for promotion. Maybe other services do not recomend it, but it is being taught to all USAF personnel.TchussBitc 19:40, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Also, this is a part of the US Code Title 4 Chapter 1, section 8. I will edit the wiki.TchussBitc 19:45, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Read the US Code before editing!!!!

I've been reading through some edits on this page and people are adding false information. The US Code is a federal law that provides guidance on the American flag. I've noticed people inputing false information that is easily proven wrong by reading the US Code.

Now that I am off my soap box, I can't figure out how to reference properly, and I'd like my references to conform to the style of this page. Anyone care to correct my edits to reference the same style as the article? Thanks! TchussBitc 20:50, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

  • I would think the U.S. Government has the flag code somewhere within it. Barring that, there's always the page in the World Almanac. Wahkeenah 23:11, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History section needs a rewrite

Despite it's A-Class rating, this article has some major problems, in particular in the History section. Various contradictory theories regarding the origin are presented, but without referring to the consensus by historians (if one exists). The first flag is referred to as Grand Union and as Continental Colors and as wrongly called the Grand Union. Illustrating images are a mess. The overall flow is awkward. Would someone knowledgable please take a stab at fixing this? --ScottMainwaring 19:17, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Purported original design of the U.S. flag

In the video The Illuminati Vol. II - The Antichrist Conspiracy (2006), by Chris Everard, there is a claim made that "The Original Design of the U.S. Flag" is an image shown of a flag that I've never seen before. It is made up of one dark side on the left and one light side on the right. On the left/dark side there are 7 stars forming a half circle around a glowing eye placed in the middle of the dark/left side, shining nine rays of light onto the light/right side. The eye looks very much like the Eye of Providence and, given the context of this video, is implied to be representative of the Illuminati. According to conspiracy theories (as discussed in the video), the Illuminati is a secret organization controlled by Luciferians conspiring to control the world. That may sound ridiculous, but nonetheless there is a great deal of evidence to back it up, and in either case whether or not the Illuminati exist or are evil is beside the point. My point is that there was a strange version of the U.S. flag presented in the video and should be investigated and recognized in this article. I feel that whether or not it is found to be an actual early version of the flag or not, it would still deserve mention (and a picture) here, at least stating that it is believed by some to be an early version of the U.S. flag. This video, I believe, is available at EnigmaTV.com.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sloth monkey (talk • contribs) 09:38, November 3, 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Etiquette

Can someone confirm, that it is indeed correct to flip the flag at its vertical axis when hanging down, so the stars still appear in the upper left corner? As with the South African flag. I have seen it at President Bush visits in Denmark and Jordan, and also seen it not done at the olympics. Medico80 15:31, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

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