Talk:Flag of Western Sahara

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Contents 1 Archive: 2 FYI: Reverse side, hoist, crescent and star 3 Colors scheme explanation 4 Move controversy 5 Biased changes by User:Reisio

[edit] Archive:

/Archive 1

[edit] FYI: Reverse side, hoist, crescent and star

Two editors have inserted a picture of a blank-sided flag (w/o crescent and star, i.e. like the Flag of Palestine) as the "reverse" of Western Sahara's flag, which I have reverted.

I just want to point out that Western Sahara's flag does not have a blank side, and that it is to the best of my knowledge hoisted normally. I know this is contradicted by FOTW, but I've seen quite a few Sahrawi flags, including on official occasions, and they're all hoisted normally, with crescent & star on both sides. Also see for example www.tukatt.com, where the flag is shown normally; and note the Polisario emblem which holds flags from both sides, with the C&R on both. Arre 01:24, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Colors scheme explanation

A second explanation of the color scheme, unique for the Western Sahara conflict...

This is original research. It sounds like some nationalist romantism - if that exists - and it has no place in a NPOV article and certainly not in Wikipedia. --Yobaranut 07:05, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

TWIMC: There's a comment or two on what the colors mean at FOTW. ¦ Reisio 12:49, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't mention the blood of martyrs thing... So that part really should be removed.--Yobaranut 02:23, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I think I originally wrote that. Of course it's "nationalist romantism". Every explanation of a flag is, just like national anthems. I got this from speaking to Sahrawis, several of whom told me this or confirmed it to me, so it's something they believe at least, which makes it relevant to describe in Wikipedia. But I don't know if I can find a web source. Let me try; if I can't it should be deleted for that reason alone. Arre 01:34, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Move controversy

Ported from WP:RM: Here is my position:

• Flag and coat of arms of the "Sahrawi Rpublic" is much more accurate
• I did not remove any page but adjusted the redirects.
• There is in principle no change as the flag of WS redirects to "Sahrawi Rpublic"
• What I will discuss is to delete this redirect and use one that shows both flags, the Moroccan one ond the one of "Sahrawi Rpublic"
• The other page was created by mistake (Sahrwai Arab Republic). It does not include any wrong information. If you can/want to delete it feel free.
• If you are angry because you got blocked, then it's not my problem when you fool yourself.

Cheers wikima 20:15, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay How is it more accurate? Did you read the discussion in the archive? No one said you removed anything. There is a change in prinicple; otherwise, you wouldn't have moved it in the first place. Again, for the Moroccan flag discussion, did you read the lenghty propsal in the archive about this same thing and why it was rejected in the first place? Please stop making off-hand references about my person and libelous speculation; it's rude. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 20:47, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

• I am following these discussion since a long time
• What you want to reach is a static definitive pro-polisarian information that you make all to protect.
• Whether the sadr flag redirects to WS one or vice-versa is pretty much the same POV.
• And this is not what I discuss.
• I will re-open the discussion: WS is a disputed territory, the Moroccan flag is used de facto on that territory, at least there where it is relevant: the capital of the region and all urban and populated areas.
• If you think stuff on "sadr" is written womehere in the bible then you're wrong.

wikima 20:57, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay If you followed it a long time, why did you move this page unilaterally? Clearly, it was controversial. I didn't protect the page; I can't do that. Obviously, you don't think they're the same POV, or else you wouldn't have moved them in the first place. The Moroccan flag is used on some of the territory, and this flag is used on some as well. So is the flag of the United Nations. As I stated before, this flag is not merely the flag of the SADR, but Western Sahara, the Polisario Front, and the Polisario splinter group, so moving it to the flag of SADR is arbitrary. Plus, naming conventions are to choose the most common name, so this should be moved back. Plus, the flag of Morocco is the flag of Morocco; regardless of whether or not that *includes* Western Sahara. This flag is only of and for the geopolitical entity of Western Sahara, so should be here (not the ameliatory text at the beginning of the page, by the way.) I don't even know where to begin with that last line. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 21:04, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

• Ok, thank you for this - It's now much better
• You see now that it does not matter whether "sadr" redirects to WS or vice-versa
• The current situation of the article should be ok for you if you could just have a little think
• What matters is that the flag of the so called "sadr" is redirected from a "falg of WS"
• Totally ignoring one main actor in the conflict, who claims the territory and has his flag on the capital and all urban and populated area
• You see your biase? You want to hide these facts by complaining about the move from... WS to "sadr"! Wow [sic].
• And be a little patient, then I will reposnd to all that phantasy stuff that you write above. No rpoblem.

Cheers - wikima 21:13, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

What? "You see now that it does not matter whether "sadr" redirects to WS or vice-versa" This is the exact opposite of what I wrote above. I have had several thinks, many of them big, and I explained myself at length here and in the archive. Why did you put [sic] after the word "wow?" Could you please stop being so rude? Honestly. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 21:16, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

• If oyu think it does not matter why did you report the move?
• Where is the "good faith"
• You see that I infact did not move anything
• Just as mater of accuracy and logic (your ideoligical logic actually) I set the WS flag to redirect to the "sadr" one
• But you don't follow even when thing are good for you
• Now we will have an other discussion and it will not be ws<->"sadr"<->
• There is as I say a major actor that is missing here. And he must be covered. Logical not?

wikima 21:20, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

This is astounding I DO think it matters. That's what I've said the entire time. What? you "infact [sic] did not move anything?" Are you kidding? That's a complete lie. What things are good for me? Why do you systematically ignore the simple questions I posed to you about this page and move? No, not "logical not;" the exact opposite thereof. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 21:23, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh my God, will this never end? Let's just move the page to "Piece of cloth used by some people to represent a tiny, disputed territory in north-west Africa" and be done with it. If not, then I kindly ask all would-be contributors to this debate to read the archives before starting the same debate for the fourth of fifth time, lest all sides will be forced to repeat their arguments again. Arre 22:54, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Arre, things have to sorted well and agreed upon. Western Sahara has nothing to do with the flag. Polisario/SADR, yes. So, if you mean that WS is identical to SADR, then you are in the minority, because neither the UN, nor about 160 countries see it that way. Western Sahara is the disputed territory that can in the end be either Moroccan or independent (SADR), but till that end is reached, putting a flag on it here is POV. So either put two flags, or none. Away from any background convictions, don't you find it fair that way?. --A Jalil 23:52, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, so you obviously haven't read the archives. Please do, because my responses are right there in multiple versions with and without sources. As for how I view the question of what to name the article, the answer is that it's a pointless waste of time enjoyed only by political POV warriors. More on that too in the archive.

My view, in short, is that since the flag is intended as the flag of Western Sahara, that's what the Wikipedia article should be named too. It's the only one of its kind, there is no rival version, and there is even a nice little explanatory text included, to appease anyone who would want to feign offense at this. But please don't respond to this. Read the archives instead. Arre 12:51, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

But you said all here. So there is a flag for Western Sahara? is it the one lifted on it (the Moroccan) or the one lifted in Tindouf?. My logic is very simple,and not difficult to grasp, unless you have an agenda (like koavf). I expect from you (an Algerian) more openness.--A Jalil 20:24, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Arre,

• You can make an experience on any wikipedia like place.
• Create an article telling that the earth is flat.
• I promise the story will never end and it won't help reffering people to endless archives.
• You are obviously confusing an encyclopedia article with the polisario wishes of a republic.
• And from what you write here you should be more than happy with "flag of the sadr"", though your proposal with the tiny piece of cloths is not bad too. Just let Western Sahara be what it is, a disputed territory, and not what Polsiario wants it to be. I think this is pretty simple and clear.

Cheers wikima 21:48, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

---

I restored the article to the old name. I don't take either position, but the move was half-done: the talk page wasn't moved. I advise the interested parties to relist it at WP:RM rather than ensuing a move war. Duja 07:33, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Biased changes by User:Reisio

“The Western Sahara area has never formed a state in the modern sense of the word.” says the History of Western Sahara article of Wikipedia. We can also notice that this page does not show any flag for Western Sahara.

Therefore, something like Flag of Western Sahara cannot exist. The flag described in this article is the flag of the proclaimed Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic, which does not control the Western Sahara territory. User:Reisio have started an edit war against 3 other users to impose a biased presentation, in order to persuade that Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic is a legitimate state for Western Sahara. --Juiced lemon 21:52, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

• This I do totally support.
• Western Sahara is a dipusted territory and has no flag
• "Flag of WS" as used in this article is fully pro-Polisario POV
• It contredicts the body of the text that says "The flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic was ..."
• I would support to:

1. Either remove this page and only leave the flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic article
2. Or make Flag of Western Sahara an explanation or disambiguation page that explains the matter briefly and links the the respective flags: the Moroccan one which is the effectively and de facto used flag in WS and the "sadr" one which is claimed by Polisario.

-- wikima 22:08, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

"“The Western Sahara area has never formed a state in the modern sense of the word.” says the History of Western Sahara article of Wikipedia. We can also notice that this page does not show any flag for Western Sahara. \n Therefore, something like Flag of Western Sahara cannot exist."

Explain Flag of Hezbollah, then - I don't recall there ever being a 'Republic of Hezbollah'.

"that Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic is a legitimate state for Western Sahara"

If you think otherwise, then you are biased - even the UN is open to the SADR governing the territory.
My concern, however, is the name - which was apparently originally and still is most popularly today 'flag of Western Sahara'.

"Western Sahara is a dipusted territory and has no flag"

Explain the existence of this article. Explain this.

¦ Reisio 23:08, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Reisio, I think this is not difficult to solve:

• There ia a flag for Polisario/SADR claiming it to represent the disputed territory of WS.
• Hezbollah has a flag as a political party, but he does not claim it for Lebanon.
• The UN sees the Polisario Front as one of the parties in the conflict, but it does not recognize the SADR. If you think it is "the legitimate state of WS", you are free to do so, but it not the opinion of the majority of thw World including the UN, the US,...etc.
• The Moroccan flag is (from the Moroccan view point) the flag of WS as a Moroccan southern province.
• So you can't unilaterally call the Polisario flag that of WS more than to say the Moroccan flag represents WS.
• The right naming would be "The flag of the Polisario Front" or "the flag of the SADR".
• I would like someone to give sources as to when was the Polisario flag first created.
• the pesence of flags on the net does not make them recognized. there are flags for chechnya, Tibet, Assyria, ... etc.

--A Jalil 23:33, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

"There ia a flag for Polisario/SADR claiming it to represent the disputed territory of WS."

As I understand it, there is a flag of Western Sahara that the SADR adopted. To adopt something, it must already exist.

"The Moroccan flag is (from the Moroccan view point) the flag of WS as a Moroccan southern province."

Which means such Moroccans will look up "Flag of Morocco", not "Flag of Western Sahara"; therefore there is no ambiguity, therefore there is no need for disambiguation.

"So you can't unilaterally call the Polisario flag that of WS more than to say the Moroccan flag represents WS."

I'm not. I'm saying the 'flag of Western Sahara' is the 'flag of Western Sahara'. Whether or not POLISARIO and the SADR uses it is irrelevant to this specific point. It's about names and origin.

"I would like someone to give sources as to when was the Polisario flag first created."

Better sources would be good, but I think you'll find it was created as a 'flag of Western Sahara', hence the debate.

"the pesence of flags on the net does not make them recognized. there are flags for chechnya, Tibet, Assyria, ... etc."

It does however relate to Wikipedia's established naming conventions, which dictate the most popular name should be used.

¦ Reisio 23:44, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

• The neutral point of view would be to use/name it as the flag of the "SADR"
• WS is a disputed territory and has therefore no flag.
• The role of Wikipedia is not to reflect the POV od Polisario/"SADR"

Rgds - wikima 20:39, 27 November 2006 (UTC)