Talk:Flag of New Zealand

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Contents 1 Link update 2 Picture shows torn New Zealand flag 3 Vexillological terms & Update 4 Link to petition 5 Citing sources 6 Best design 7 Reference for opinion polls 8 Flag ratio 9 Anyone have a graphic/image of the NZ Jack? 10 Flag debate timeline

[edit] Link update

- Removed link to NZ Flag.com petition, as it has been withdrawn. - Removed link to National Front 'save the flag' site, as this has been deleted (points to NF main page) --Lholden 11:41, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

It would quite cool to broaden out the section on the flag debate. In the coming years of this debate this page could become really useful as a one-stop-shop for those seeking neutral and all-encompassing information, so I'll set about inviting all those who might be interested (flag designers, campaigners, etc.). Christiaan 13:43, 1 Jan 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Picture shows torn New Zealand flag

In the picture which shows the NZ flag in Auckland International Airport, the left part of the NZ flag is slightly torn!

And the problem with that is?--Lholden 21:03, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I was under the impression that the NZ flag should not be flown in a dilapidated condition. Wouldn't it be best to show a picture of the flag in a better condition? Kytok 01:01, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree, it is a offence to fly the in a dilapidated condition. Brian | (Talk) 07:36, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Well yes, you shouldn't fly a dilapidated flag. But it's not an offence to; according to the New Zealand Flag Notice 1977 (a statutory regulation of the main FLAGS, EMBLEMS, AND NAMES PROTECTION ACT 1981) there's nothing illegal about flying a dilapidated flag, or at least I can't find anything in the law. I am, as always, willing to be proven wrong Brian :-) --Lholden 08:34, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it is an "offence" in the legal sence, however the flag should never be flown in a dilapidated condition. However if you fly it with the intention of dishonouring the flag, 11 (b) might apply. Brian | (Talk) 08:43, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I plead freedom of expression ;-) --Lholden 09:21, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vexillological terms & Update

A number of changes to this page have been made in line with vexillogical terminology. First, the flag is described as a 'defaced' blue ensign, which it is. Putting the information regarding the pre-1840 flags after this also makes sense, IMHO there should be a sub-section of historical flags of New Zealand linking to the list of NZ Flags.

I have also removed the sentence relating to the Commonwealth as this is inaccurate, there was never a requirement that member states of the Commonwealth retain the Union Flag, nor was this ever a requirement under the British Empire - there are many examples of this. The Commonwealth flag is somewhat different from the Union Flag. As I mention in the edit, it was only a requirement for Colonial Government-owned vessels under the Colonial Navy Defence Act.

Also, the current flag didn't become the de facto national flag until c. 1899, around the time of the Boer war. Most historical texts I have seen prior to this time either show the United Tribes flag or the Union Flag as the New Zealand flag, and it wasn't until New Zealand sent troops to fight in South Africa that we really needed a New Zealand Flag except for on our ships. This was why Parliament enacted legislation to set out exactly what the New Zealand Flag was, because of the confusion surrounding the exact design of the flag. --Lholden 00:26, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Added 'Other Flags'--203.97.163.35 06:52, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

The flag of the Confederation of United Tribes of New Zealand is not depicted correctly. The red cross in the blue canton is fimbriated black, not white (see http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/nz_hist2.html). The stars in the blue canton are eight-pointed, not five-pointed. There was a version gazetted in New South Wales which depicted six-pointed stars and white fimbriation, however it is not the version chosen by the chiefs of the United Tribes.

The article refers to the Union flag as "also known as Union Jack". The Union flag is only correctly termed a "Union Jack" when flown at sea (the name comes from the ship's jack-staff). The two terms are not interchangeable.

[edit] Link to petition

I have no feelings either way as to whether there should be a link to the petition (which is at least a real paper one and not an online petition) but would like to point out that we now have to links to the same page (www.nzflag.com). Evil Monkey ∴ Hello? 23:53, Jan 28, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, what do you recommend? Are such duplications discouraged? Christiaan 00:41, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Couldn't find anything official but I don't think we should have multiple links to the same page. Maybe the link to nzflag.com could mention the petitin. Evil Monkey∴Hello? 00:52, Jan 29, 2005 (UTC)

Someone has re-instated the link to the petition. This petition is to change the flag; it is promoting a particular point-of-view. Unless a link to a petition for keeping the current flag is added then the Wikipedia NPOV rule is broken. Please insert a link to such a petition (if one exists), otherwise I suggest you remove the current link.Arcturus 11:28, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with POV links, as long as the link description makes a clear statement which POV is represented. External links are not endorsements of their content. The link promotes knowledge, that is all. This link is covered by Wikipedia:External_links and Wikipedia:Make_articles_useful_for_readers. You might also like to read Non-neutral links at the bottom of meta:When should I link externally. You are, of course, free to contribute to this article like you are on any other. Christiaan 11:54, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The web page eliciting support by way of petition for a change to the NZ flag imparts little or no knowledge. It is merely the vehicle of a pressure group and is totally biased. It adds nothing to Wikipedia. Thank you for reminding me that I am free to contribute to this and other articles. You must have thought I'd forgotten. Arcturus 13:52, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I repeat, there is nothing wrong with and there is no policy against POV links. Christiaan 15:18, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I have added a link to the New Zealand Flag Institute. This organisation is opposed to the proposed change to the flag. It is however a vexillological institute, rather than a lobby group. JohnC 16:20, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Great! Good to see you made it John. —Christiaan 08:39, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Citing sources

We should work at citing some sources for all the "some think this" and "some think that" sentences we currently have. —Christiaan 08:51, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Best design

I truly believe that the best New Zealand flag was the one during the reign of King William III - the United Tribes design.

[edit] Reference for opinion polls

The article claims that opinion polls indicate a majority are in favour of keeping the current flag. I cannot recall ever seeing such a poll and this link at the nzflag.com website suggests likewise that this is not true [1]. Of course the nzflag.com is obviously not a neutral site but this is a NZ Herald editorial so I highly doubt it will be lying about opinion polls. If no one is able to source/reference the opinion polls I will change it... Nil Einne 09:47, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Flag ratio

Flag ratio: 1:2 It looks to me as though this symbol is actually 2:3 not 1:2. I know zip about flags, but one would presume that a 1:2 ratio would indicate that the flag is two units across for every one up. But that symbol has three for every two. --LeftyG 23:22, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

The symbol actually has nothing to do with the ratio. It is unfortunate that the (little-known) symbol is right next to "flag ratio" -- I can see how confusion can readily arise. See Vexillological symbol for the interpretation: the dots (or lack thereof) in the six grid squares indicate how the flag is used. In this case the dots indicate that the flag is used on land by civilians, government, and military, but at sea is used only by government (civilians and the military have different flags). It seems to me that these "FIAV" symbols are useful to so few people that they probably shouldn't be used on Wikipedia, or if they are used they should link to Vexillological symbol every time they are used. Indefatigable 02:48, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

As I said, I know nothing about flags :-) Cheers. I think it would be an idea to link it to Vexillogical symbol as that would clear it up for a lot of people. --LeftyG 09:10, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Ċ== Edits of 24 Jan 2006 ==

I removed the text since the previous version was balanced between pro- and anti- change opinions with decent sized chunks for both sides. The new material is inherently NPOV (showing an alternative flag) in the pro-change group's favour.

The removed text can be seen here. (link doesn't seem to work) Greentubing 22:59, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

What you want is this link. I'm in favour of including this design, since it seems to be notable, but the section would have to be NPOVed. Could you do that? —Nightstallion (?) 07:47, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing the link. Unfortunately I can't include the information in an NPOV way since I don't follow the politics of the flag—I just draw them! But I agree that this design is notable and deserves mention. Greentubing 09:37, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Mh. Do you still think that it would be inherently POV to show this flag? I think it would add to the value of the article to show one of the best designed flags that have been proposed as an alternative, and would not consider that POV in favour of the flag change... —Nightstallion (?) 10:24, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Maybe I should have rephrased my original comment. The flag in itself is good. Its just that the way it was arranged last time was POV imo. But it has to be presented in the context of the pro-change group's argument. I'll put the flag in the "Arguments for Change" section, and maybe someone more informed can flesh it out. Greentubing 04:13, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Great! —Nightstallion (?) 08:36, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Sorry about the mess i made of the NZ flag Page, As you people may have gathered I am very new to Wikipedia (i was invited by somebody to add my info a while back. Sorry for any inconvience caused nzflag.info

Heh, its no problem—this is exactly the way Wikipedia is meant to work! People write things and others come and change it. If anything you should be glad for bringing this to our attention. Greentubing 11:07, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree. (Besides, it's a *really* good design. ;)) —Nightstallion (?) 13:53, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I've put some of the material back. Comment please. Greentubing 04:39, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Looks fine to me. —Nightstallion (?) 10:54, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Just put the flag into a box... --Lholden 19:06, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anyone have a graphic/image of the NZ Jack?

From 1869 to 1902 the Jack was one of New Zealand's official flags. It was a Union Jack with four white stars,. Anyone? Moriori 07:55, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean the code signals flag? That had the stars of the southern cross within a white disk on the Blue Ensign. I've never heard of the above flag before. --Lholden 07:57, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

The Jack worn by HM NZ Ships is the same as the National Flag--meaning that the National Flag (NZ Blue Ensign) is the Government Service Ensign when worn at the stern, and the Jack when worn on the jackstaff. Compare that with the UK system where the Blue Ensign is the Gov't service flag and the Union Jack is worn on the jackstaff. Greentubing 08:00, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Tks, but we need to step back a little here, I am talking about the New Zealand Jack which was one of New Zealand's official flags from 1869 to 1902. It was basically the Union Jack but with four white stars on it, one each on an arm of St George's cross. Hey, I'm repeating myself ):-. Moriori 08:30, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Lol sorry I should have thought about the comment, silly me... I think I've seen one of them somewhere but I don;t remember the name. You're right, this might need some following up. I'll get on to it once my current queue of jobs and requests is finished. Greentubing 09:10, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

See [2] and [3]. JPD (talk) 09:24, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

(back to margin) Cheers JPD. If this Governor's flag was indeed used as a nat'l flag then it could be included in the article. IMO if it was just a Governor's flag then it probably doesn't need to be included. Greentubing 09:52, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I have made one and uploaded it to Commons. Greentubing 10:13, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it was, as I said above, I've never seen it before --Lholden 06:54, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

My impression is that it was only used as a Governor's flag, at the same time as the national flag was first introduced. Of course this means it was an official flag, but possibly not one that belongs on this page. JPD (talk) 11:49, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I think this page shouldn't have all the minor variants and deviations from the Nat'l flag. It should list only current flags in use and historical flags representing NZ (ie United Tribes etc), plus the flag debate. Greentubing 12:02, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Put it on the List of New Zealand flags page then. --Lholden 08:51, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Done. Greentubing 09:11, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

This particular flag still bugs me. Yes, the design resulted from a misinterpretation of instructions. But that has nothing to do with the raison d'être. New Zealand Yesteryears, ISBN 0-949-81940-9, (page 29) has illustrations of the Jack (the image shown above right), The Ensign and the Pendant and describes them all as "official New Zealand flags from 1869 to 1902". A passage in the text says the following --" Until 1867 New Zealand flew unadulterated British colours on land and sea. In that year the Colonial Office required all colonial ships to wear the blue ensign with their national ensign in the fly. New Zealand had no national badge so the Postmaster General settled on a large, red and ugly "NZ" to embellish the flag. Two years later finer tastes prevailed and the four principle stars of the Southern Cross were chosen as the country's badge. On the ensign they appeared as four five-pointed red stars with white borders, on the Union Jack as white stars in the red ground on the St George's Cross, and on the pendant clustered in red near the staff." It is extremely difficult to interpret that as not defining the Jack as an official flag of NZ. It is even more difficult to somehow interpret it as saying the Jack was for use only by the Governor, who isn't mentioned anywhere. We risk revising history here and it seems to me further research is needed. Moriori 03:01, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I put it in as a Governor's flag becuase of the information on JPD's link above (http://flagspot.net/flags/nz_gov.html#gov69):

The jack is a misinterpretation of the Order in Council of 7th August 1869; "... Governors ...administering the Governments of British Colonies and Dependencies be authorised to fly the Union Jack, with the Arms or Badge of the Colony emblazoned in the centre thereof." It seems to have been assumed that since the four stars of the Southern Cross on the Blue Ensign were spread across the whole fly and not confined to a small circle, the stars on the Union Jack should be similarly spread. David Prothero, 2 January 2005

I think FOTW backs up Yesteryears as well on the first part of http://flagspot.net/flags/nz_hist4.html#gaz. However I'm not a flag historian, I only draw them. Moriori I suggest you edit the information, since I was going on FOTW's information. Greentubing 04:06, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

It was fairly standard for the Governors of British colonies to fly Union Jacks with the badge in the a garland in the centre. The misinterpretation is to have the stars spread out rather than as part of a badge surrounded by a garland. Either way, the flag should only have been used by the governor, and I haven't seen anything to suggest it was used more widely. The governor's flag is an "official flag of NZ" as much as a "national" flag is, so that description doesn't really tell us anything. JPD (talk) 10:32, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Flag debate timeline

A timeline of events in the flag debate would be a useful reference, IMHO: May 1973: Labour Party Congress - a call to change the flag was squashed. Nov 1979: a proposal to place the silver fern on the fly appeared. 1980: several suggestions arose, including one from the government to consider a new flag, and a newspaper article calling for the same. One suggestion was to use the NZ-ZN in blue and red on a white field, from the flag that was used for the 1974 Commonwealth Games. Early 1980's: D.A. Bayle introduced a blue-white-blue flag with a blue koru as a proposal. March 1983: F. Hundertwasser introduced the green koru. 1984: a black and white koru with stars was proposed, and a black flag with four white fimbriated red stars was suggested from a newspaper competition. Dec 1988: a modified Titman proposal (almost identical to an AusFlag proposal in 1997 for Australia). 1989: at a party conference a call for a new flag was defeated 144:156. 1990: the winning flag in another newspaper competition was a blue-white-green horizontally striped flag, ratios about 8:2:3, with four white stars on the blue stripe in the fly. Another flag seen around 1990 was a blue-yellow-green horizontally striped flag in approximately 10:1:8 ratio. 1994: J. Park proposed a black flag, the UJ in the canton, with white kiwi and ferns in the fly. 1998: James Dignan initiated discussion leading to a white fern above a red diagonal on a black field. 1999: above design modified to white fern on black. May 2000: proposed designs still appearing, including black-white-green tricolour, with four gold stars and a koru.

--Lholden 07:09, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately that timeline (which comes straight from the FOTW website and is therefore copyrighted) isn't correct. Grutness...wha? 01:18, 10 September 2006 (UTC) (a.k.a. James Dignan)