Talk:Five Temperaments
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Continuing a discussion from the page Talk:Supine (temperament), as the original page author has suggested deleting Supine (temperament):
- A promising article. Needs edits to cite sources and maintain NPOV. Chonak 05:15, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] External links
IMHO, one of the three links Quiddity removed could fairly considered informational and not mere advertising. Am I missing something?
The other two links were just uninformative promotional material, so I agree with Quiddity's action on those. Chonak 06:31, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
- I agree that it's not mere advertising on the linked "history" page. I was put off the site by the other 2 pages, [1] and [2], wherein they are trying to sell both certification to administer the test, and the test itself. Anything marketing itself as "creation therapy" is, IMO, just dripping with pseudo-science, and hence a non-legitimate external link (unless we add a strong disclaimer after the link). Not to be overly dramatic, but it's too close to Auditing (Scientology) for me to be comfortable with.
- If someone does decide to add the link back, i'd request that they do add a strong disclaimer following it (along the lines of "Arno Profile System - history, and Creation Therapy marketing").
- However I do remain against adding the link back, I'd prefer it if we just incorporate any pertinent info from the page, into our article. -Quiddity 18:01, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree about incorporating the information, but we really ought to cite sources, so it makes sense to include this source unless an alternative without the marketing material is found. Labelling it as Arno's site makes sense: e.g., "history of Arno Profile System; site also offers publications for sale". For better or worse, his approach does seem to be commonly used among Christian Counselors and in training programs in that field.
"Creation Therapy" is, no doubt, a marketing label for Arno's counseling approach, but unless there's some demonstrable parallel between the method's actual content and the controversial COS's "Auditing", it doesn't seem justified to say that one is "close to" the other. (And as you acknowledged, the comparison does sound dramatic.) If you have more info, feel free to share. For what it's worth, a sample report of a counseling trainee using Arno's temperament system is available on-line. Chonak 04:00, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
- Ahh, yes, linking it as a reference would be fine. That carries different connotations than an external link :) I'll replace in appropriate section, with ref tag. -Quiddity 04:12, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
"Creation Therapy" may sound strange, but it is just a course the Arnos (Christian psychologists) give for prospective counselors, and involved the Biblical worldview. It has nothing to do with Scientology, or any other such occult practice. In an age where theories have to basically pre-suppose atheism or agnosticism to be considereed true "science", that will still not be looked favorably on. But the Five-Temperament model they offer really is in itself independant of that course, and stands alone. Worley Profile (worleyid.com) uses the same basic system, and does not AFAIK use any such Christian premise, and it is all based on FIRO-B, which is not religious. I had included the other links, because that had more info than apsreport.com. I was not thinking in terms of the "advertising".
I have written the Arno's addressing the NPOV issue, and hope they will respond, and perhaps offer more sources. Eric B 02:54, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
- The Arnos are not ideally situated to provide a neutral point of view. If I understand WP's guideline about conflicts of interest correctly, they shouldn't be involved in the writing of the article, although they certainly have a right to correct any errors of fact. Still, it seems fine IMHO to ask their help in locating independent sources that describe the theory.
- If it's not possible to bring together enough information from independent sources to write this article, then the topic may not really be "notable" enough to need an article at this time. On the other hand, I must admit that course descriptions in several college catalogs online do mention the theory; this would seem to confirm its notability. Chonak 04:23, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Correlations with Other Type Theories
I've been doing my own research on this subject, so I won't add to the articles, but I have just noticed that the five temperaments plus the four pairs of Phlegmatic Blends neatly corresponds with the Nine types of the Enneagram.
Type 1: Phlegmatic Melancholy/Phlegmatic Choleric
Type 2: Phlegmatic Sanguine/Phlegmatic Supine
Type 3: Sanguine Phlegmatic/Choleric Phlegmatic
Type 4: Melancholy Phlegmatic/Supine Phlegmatic
Type 5: Melancholy
Type 6: Supine
Type 7: Sanguine
Type 8: Choleric
Type 9: Phlegmatic
(Both members of each Phlegmatic blend pair exhibit the same basic behavior, thought the underlying motivation for it is different). To get a perfect idea of what these temperaments are like in person, one Enneagram site has videos of the 9! http://www.enneagramworldwide.com/explore-the-enneagram/videos-of-the-nine-types/ Yet another Enneagram site has this cartoon of all nine at a dinner table, also perfectly illustrating their behavior: http://www.wagele.com/DinPart.html
I'm also looking into the correllation with the Jung/MBTI/Keirsey system (which seems to be the most popular of the systems now). I have some ideas, but it's taking me time to understand how that works.Eric B 15:31, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
